Fundy in my bio class

[Loki]

Ok, so I go to Michigan, which is in Ann Arbor, MI. It's a pretty liberal town. We have hash bash and a naked romp through campus (though that seems to be dying). More people vote democrat than republican, it seems. There are many intelligent people here.

So why is it that I go to my Animal Diversity class this afternoon, and since it's a small class, the prof has us all introduce ourselves and say why we're there. So it's a bunch of "I'm Marissa, I'm a junior, studying bio, hopefully pharmacy, I like living things..." etc, until this girl wearing a shirt that represents one of the more conservative xian groups stands up, introduces herself, and says "I'm a bio minor, and I'm here because I want to learn about evolution. I don't believe in it."

This saddens me. And angers me. Especially since I'm living with a chem/biochem major and a physics/math major, and no one goes into their classes saying "God didn't put proteins in the bible, therefore I don't believe in 'em, but I'm taking genetics to learn about it" or "God didn't put quarks in the bible; he said Adam was made from mud, therefore quarks don't exist, but I'm taking quantum to learn about it."

I guess what's the worst about this is that Ann Arbor's pretty damn liberal, and if these people show up here, what's it like in the rest of the world?!

Not sure if this belongs here, if not, my sincere apologies.

[SiliconWolf]

I have encountered a surprising number of fundy types in southern Michigan for some reason, although Ann Arbor is about the last place I would expect them to appear.

This person does sound kind of like me going into a mosque and saying "Teach me about Allah even though I don't believe in him."

[geniph]

I see this as rather akin to going into a church and insisting on teaching biology. It's not appropriate there. Neither is it appropriate to bring your theism into a science class. They don't have to be in opposition, but you don't insist on teaching typing during Bible study, either. Perhaps she should just pay attention to the studies in the class and try to keep an open mind.

Sounds like it's too late for the open mind part, though. Too bad. If one already assumes one knows everything, it's difficult to learn anything new.

[Loki]

Exactly, Geniph. I mean, if she's already made up her mind about evolution, what's the point in taking 4 credits worth of it? And why'd she have to say that? If I were the prof, I'd feel a bit insulted.

Oh well, should be a good class, nontheless.

[DarkWraith]

Danged people, going in and trying to learn about opposing beliefs. Why can't they just close their eyes and cover their ears and remain ignorant? It'd really help make our stereotypes more accurate.

[JP2]

"I'm a bio minor, and I'm here because I want to learn about evolution. I don't believe in it."

Note that her lack of belief in evolution precedes her knowledge of it. She's not saying "I have Christian beliefs, but I'd be interested in analysing the merits of evolutionary theory" she's saying "I don't know jack crap about evolution, but I'm willing to dismiss it a priori anyway."

Important lesson in Christian causality.

[DarkWraith]

Originally posted by JP2
Note that her lack of belief in evolution precedes her knowledge of it. She's not saying "I have Christian beliefs, but I'd be interested in analysing the merits of evolutionary theory" she's saying "I don't know jack crap about evolution, but I'm willing to dismiss it a priori anyway."

Important lesson in Christian causality.

I know very little about the Hinduism, and yet I don't believe in it. In fact, I'm willing to bet that I know less about the Hindu religion than she does about evolution.

In the western world, it'd be a very impressive feat to avoid learning anything about evolution. She had to have picked up the basics from school, tv, her parents, everyone who's quoted parts of it even if just to say why it's wrong, etc. It seems a bit absurd to me that anyone can get all the way to college without learning anything about evolution.

[Talulah]

Oh contraire,

I was taught from the cradle that evolution was bad, wrong and just plain stupid. I mean, what kind of idiots think we come from apes, right? I ain't no damn ape. I went to church three times a week and lived with ardent YECers. I was force fed video and audio tapes, pamphlets and books about how evolution is a crock and only stupid atheists believe in it. I was taught that the people teaching me it were misguided fools and instructed to learn only enough to put the right answer on the test, then dump it. So I did. I held all my science teachers in contempt, I ridiculed my text books and as a result, I failed to absorb any science at all because I was indoctrinated SO WELL.

I took exactly 3 science classes in college and passed by memorization. I remember little to nothing. I have no doubt that that young lady wants to know about evolution because she hasn't been taught it, or wants to know what IS being taught at the college level. She has a chance for reason to dawn on her. I wasn't even willing to listen. Frankly, I applaud her.

[DarkWraith]

I hope I'm not the only one to realize the irony of this thread.

[Gothic_J]

quite so. by sleeping through bio, I learned nary a thing about evolution - I only know a rough idea from my research of the last few months.

[Viti]

Originally posted by DarkWraith
Danged people, going in and trying to learn about opposing beliefs. Why can't they just close their eyes and cover their ears and remain ignorant? It'd really help make our stereotypes more accurate.

Welcome to the Secular Lifestyle Forum at Internet Infidels! I hate to have to moderate your first post here at II, but this level of sarcasm is not welcome in this section of the boards, please read the special rules at the top of the forum.

That being said, I do agree with you, just not with the way you said it. It's possible she is trying to learn and at the same time hold on to life long beliefs. It makes her sound like an idiot of course, for that to be the first thing out of her mouth, but her motiviations may be sound.

LadyShea
Secular Lifestyle Moderator

[DarkWraith]

Originally posted by LadyShea
Welcome to the Secular Lifestyle Forum at Internet Infidels! I hate to have to moderate your first post here at II, but this level of sarcasm is not welcome in this section of the boards, please read the special rules at the top of the forum.

Sorry for that, then. I'll be careful not to let it happen again.
That being said, I do agree with you, just not with the way you said it. It's possible she is trying to learn and at the same time hold on to life long beliefs. It makes her sound like an idiot of course, for that to be the first thing out of her mouth, but her motiviations may be sound.

LadyShea
Secular Lifestyle Moderator

I just didn't like all the snap-judgements that were happening. If she had interrupted class every day (or even just often enough to disrupt the class) to spout her beliefs, or she tried to force her beliefs on others I would be a lot more sympathetic with the original poster.

I think her statement was gutsy, although perhaps not particularly bright.

Frankly, I think it's unlikely that she's going to have an open mind about evolution. She may not even want to understand other people's positions better, but is only there because it's a requirement for her minor. But it's impossible to determine all that, plus her background and the reasoning behind all her beliefs from just one sentence. Besides, I think that as long as she isn't trying to force her beliefs on others, her own background and motivations are fairly irrelevant.

One last point: It seems that several people find the idea of studying things you don't neccessarily agree with completely alien. This disturbs me a bit. I'd hope people would be a little more open-minded.

[User]

Originally posted by DarkWraith
In the western world, it'd be a very impressive feat to avoid learning anything about evolution. She had to have picked up the basics from school, tv, her parents, everyone who's quoted parts of it even if just to say why it's wrong, etc. It seems a bit absurd to me that anyone can get all the way to college without learning anything about evolution.

I goto a fundie school, and all I've learned about evo is...Creation Science!!!

[xorbie]

Ugh. As can be seen by my location, I am at UIUC. I went to quad day, which is where all the registered organizations give out info, get e-mail adresses, etc

I swear, there were at least 50 Christian organziations there. It was rediculous. I can already tell there seem to be a couple borderline fundies in my Philosophy class (fortunatly I don't have to take Bio) and some true idiots (though that is irrilevent here) in my Soc 100 class.

Anyway, if I were in your position I might try to help this girl see how she is wrong. If she remains stubborn and thick-headed, it is her problem. I think she was being somewhat rude, but nothing outrageous. Give her a little time is all.

[Albion]

I wonder what's going to happen to this girl and her beliefs as the class progresses. Some creationists really have a problem with the fact that scientists in real life are a bit different from the caricature presented in the creationist books and pamphlets and websites.

All she needs is a theistic evolutionist in that class, and she'll be in for an interesting ride.

[Buddrow_Wilson]

I have to wonder what her motivation is for having a Bio minor, given that she fairly rejects the scientific principle? Maybe she is not so close-minded as she appears?

[Arkus 02]

I'm going to side with the fundie. She's right, everyone knows evolution is just an atheist scheme to send good xtians to hell. Just like everyone knows that the body is really made up of four humors, and blood-letting will cure almost anything. Microbes my ass. I donbt see any microbes! Atheists sure are funny people....

In unrelated news, I'm taking a space shuttle to the sun, which is obviously orbiting around the earth. Right beside the big floodgates that jesus used to start the great deluge. thats where rainbows come from, dontcha know.....

Sorry I got a little sidetracked. Fundies are evil.

[Dean Anderson]

Go over and have a look at the 'Biblical Criticism and History' forum. It is full of atheists who study the bible.

It would be a bit hypocritical to condemn a Christian who studies evolution, even though she doesn't believe in it but accept an atheist who studies the bible even though they don't believe in it.

Besides - there's always hope that she can deconvert once she is taught what evolution is really about (rather than the YEC distortion of it that she has probably been fed so far...)

[niggle]

I didn't learn squat about evolution in HS Biology, but I did learn alot in Anthropology 101.

On an unimportant note, I think she'll probably drop the class in the first few weeks to make sure nothing sinks in, but then I'm incredibly cynical.

[Loki]

It seems to have gone unnoticed that I was more lamenting that this (imo) opinion of evolution being flat out wrong is so prevalent that it seeps into a school as liberal as U of M. I think it's a bit of a slap in the face for that professor to have a student come into your class, and blatantly denounce one of the core tenets of your field.

My question: Why is she taking Animal Diversity, instead of Evolution, which is bio 390? Surely that'd be a better way to learn about evolution.

[Roland98]

Hey Loki,

Yikes. I'm also here at U of M (Epi dept.). I've never encountered a creationist here, but certainly you must realize the region is absolutely crawling with them. Just take a gander at some of the churches in the towns along US-23, for instance. Fundyville, baby. So I'm not too shocked that they exist here.

That said, I'm not sure why she'd proclaim her disbelief of evolution in a biology course, either (or why she wouldn't take a course focusing more on evolutionary theory). Maybe she thinks she can debunk the tenets that are used in your diversity course easier than in a more focused evolution course; I don't know. I hope she'll at least sit back and soak up the info and not disrupt. I had some YECs in a Vertebrate Zoology course I taught (not at U of M) who could be outright obnoxious in private; but in class they (usually) just took notes and didn't say much.

[jafosei]

One time in Sunday School (many, many years ago), our teachers showed us a James Dobson video about evolution and creationism. James Dobson is the guy behind Focus on the Family.

In the video, he layed out evolutionary arguments, and then shot them down. The conclusion was that evolutionary arguments didn't hold water by the same scientific standards they claimed, so they were worthless. Thus, creationism was correct by default.

I didn't know much about evolution at the time, but even then, I realized that Dobson wasn't explaining the evolutionary arguments correctly. He would give an almost-accurate explanation, but he'd leave a gaping hole that he would then walk through to show that it was false. It was the first serious example of a straw-man argument that I'd seen.

That was the start of my long road to deconversion. I realized that many of the arguments I had heard had used similar tactics: misrepresenting what scientists actually claimed, to make it easier to defeat them through argument. The fact that people who held the same views I did would defend them through intellectually dishonest means was an eye-opener, and the fact that I couldn't find examples of honest arguments to support those views was even harder to take. Eventually it broke through my resistance and I came to understand my errors in reasoning.

I guess my point is that this only worked for me because I saw the differences between what creationists claim evolution is, and what evolution really is. Once this fundy in your bio class is exposed to actual evolutionary theory, instead of straw-man arguments set up by a creationist, she's going to start noticing some disconnects. The seeds of doubt may yet be sown.

Creationists are everywhere, but the more of them that take the time to actually learn about the theory they oppose, the fewer there will eventually be.

[geniph]

I absolutely have no problem with someone trying to learn about something new - I've been a long-term proponent of actually teaching comparative religion at the high school level rather than waiting until college - but I do take issue with someone coming into any class and stating up front that they already think it's BS. I wouldn't go to a catechism class and state the first day, hi, I'm Geni and I don't believe in God, and oh, by the way, transubstantiation is ritual cannibalism. If I were attending catechism, I hope I'd be at least OPEN to the possibility of learning something new. (I find that rather unlikely, which is why I'm not going to catechism.)

I don't know, it just seems too much to me like saying, "try to teach whatever you like, I already know you're wrong." It's not taking the class that bothers me, it's that she felt it was necessary to state publicly that she already knew it was erroneous data. Debunkers are rarely welcomed with open arms at seances, know what I mean?

[HumanisTim]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Loki
[B]Ok, so I go to Michigan, which is in Ann Arbor, MI. It's a pretty liberal town. We have hash bash and a naked romp through campus (though that seems to be dying). More people vote democrat than republican, it seems. There are many intelligent people here.

So why is it that I go to my Animal Diversity class this afternoon, and since it's a small class, the prof has us all introduce ourselves and say why we're there. So it's a bunch of "I'm Marissa, I'm a junior, studying bio, hopefully pharmacy, I like living things..." etc, until this girl wearing a shirt that represents one of the more conservative xian groups stands up, introduces herself, and says "I'm a bio minor, and I'm here because I want to learn about evolution. I don't believe in it."

I aplogize if someone else already made this point. Perhaps it should be seen as some progress if shes willing to take this class. At least she wants to learn about evolution instead of putting her hands to her ears and going "LA LA LA LA LA". It could turn into a good thing. Especially if it makes her think and who knows she could come around to accept evolution as a scientific fact.

[HelenM]

Originally posted by Loki
since it's a small class, the prof has us all introduce ourselves and say why we're there. So it's a bunch of "I'm Marissa, I'm a junior, studying bio, hopefully pharmacy, I like living things..." etc, until this girl wearing a shirt that represents one of the more conservative xian groups stands up, introduces herself, and says "I'm a bio minor, and I'm here because I want to learn about evolution. I don't believe in it."

This saddens me. And angers me.

I don't see what's wrong with what she's doing. I think it's good when people are willing to learn about what they disagree with. And I also give her credit for being honest and upfront about her position.

If she derails every class by arguing that the theory of evolution is wrong, then I'd say she's behaving inappropriately and should be asked to be quiet or leave. But if she's not being disruptive, I don't see the problem.

Helen

[Loki]

And once again, I state that in the very same department that she's minoring in, there is a class titled Biology 390, Evolution. It's part of a group from which she is required to choose 2 of 3 classes in order to get said minor. Now, why not take that class? And if she's already taken that class, does she really think that a class that does not focus on evolution specifically is really going to give her the additional knowledge that she didn't get in the class devoted especially to evolution?

I'm just frustrated, and I don't expect anyone to commiserate.

[fried beef sandwich]

Heh. I spent my first 2 years at Stanford taking bio and philosophy classes so I could "learn how non-believers think so I can bring them to God" ... I can't imagine how frustrated I must've made my TAs when I'd say the stupidest things during discussions. I had many conversations with a lot of the fellow christians in my class. Turns out a lot of them started out trying to beat the evolutionists at their own game, or by becoming stealth fundies in a teaching career... for me, it started me on the road to deconversion. I went from being a YEC (Gish, Falwell, Dobson) to an OEC (Hugh Ross, etc) to a Theistic Evolutionist and finally to a Naturalistic evolutionist.

Yeah, bio was pivotal. I went to college wanting to be a stealth fundie bio teacher so I can teach creationism to my future students... now I find myself wanting to be a bio teacher so I can completely and utterly destroy stealth fundie teachers by inviting them to open debates and exposing their arguments for what they are. Muahahahahaha

[Roland98]

Originally posted by fried beef sandwich


Yeah, bio was pivotal. I went to college wanting to be a stealth fundie bio teacher so I can teach creationism to my future students... now I find myself wanting to be a bio teacher so I can completely and utterly destroy stealth fundie teachers by inviting them to open debates and exposing their arguments for what they are. Muahahahahaha

I'm glad you've rearranged your goals, FB, but the phrase "stealth fundie teacher" honestly makes me fear a bit for my kids, and also ticks me off as a bio major and (hopefully) soon-to-be Bio professor. Is this a common phenomenon among fundies? I had 2 YECs in a vertebrate zoology course I taught last summer, but IIRC they had to take the course as part of the biology portion of their nursing degree, and weren't planning to teach. Scary.

[abe smith]

Uh... I will dump my opinion down here into this thread. You self-confessed ( = college-aged) young members here could, will become less troubled by All That in time, probably. If you-all want to *censor* the thinking & publicizing of their views, by those who disagree w/ you, you're no better than they, are you?
I think the young female fundie told of in the OP may learn ideas that are strange to her NOW; and/but she may at some point down the lab be grabbed suddenly by the REALITIES of what's out there in the Cosmos; she may be taken by storm, as some others have been .
Be a little patient, my dear Children. Instead of fighting with those whom you call "ignorant", better spend your time LEARNING as much as you can; and exercising your own brains about What There Is; and about your own irrationalities.
To be sure, it is characteristic of the Young to ride off in all directions, to save the World for their current fad-ideas.....
How 'bout lighten-up? (And how 'bout yew stop preaching here, Fogy?)

[Loki]

I rather resent the concept of evolution and natural selection being referred to as a "Current fad idea."

[abe smith]

Ummmmmmm mmmmmmmmm......

[Roland98]

Care to elaborate on that, Abe?

[kelsos]

Instead of resenting her statement you should welcome the fact that she seems open-minded enough to at least listen to what the teacher has to say. This is the first step for the better to any fundy and maybe not such an easy one for her.

You should support her instead. Who knows ? Maybe she will receive a healthy dose of reality in the end.

[Roland98]

Originally posted by kelsos
Instead of resenting her statement you should welcome the fact that she seems open-minded enough to at least listen to what the teacher has to say. This is the first step for the better to any fundy and maybe not such an easy one for her.

You should support her instead. Who knows ? Maybe she will receive a healthy dose of reality in the end.

I agree with your sentiment, Kelsos, but I sympathize with Loki's situation (well, more so with her teacher's position, since I've been there). I think it's a positive step that the fundy is taking a bio class that definitely employs evolutionary theory, but at the same time, it does make it a bit difficult to teach to someone who's already said they disbelieve the core of what you'll be teaching! Hopefully the student will at least have an open mind and not dismiss everything the prof says.

Loki, has she been a problem in class, or has she been pretty low-key? Is it mainly a lecture, or does the course have more of a seminar structure?

[Godless Dave]

I would be inclined to feel sorry for the young woman. She has probably been fed a mountain of lies about what evolution is. She may not be wilfully ignorant, just uninformed and ignorant because of her upbringing. This class will force her to either open her eyes or bury her head in the sand.

But, I see nothing wrong with venting about the situation on an atheist message board.

[abe smith]

Yeh, well Roland... I am remembering back to certain long-ago times when I was younger; and took up enthusiastically to espouse and to flog some dogmata and some other positions about which I was, at the time, not particularly well-informed.
At My Age, let's say, I have become less-moved to push ANY opinions; has to do, perhaps, w/ becoming increasingly skeptical as Time runs-on. A Geezer's age-pitfall, possibly; becoming less & less certain that I know much of anything for certain. Ummmmmmmmm (?) etc. As Montaigne's motto reads, "Que scais-je?" = "Eh, so, what *do* I know?"

[fried beef sandwich]

Originally posted by Roland98
I'm glad you've rearranged your goals, FB, but the phrase "stealth fundie teacher" honestly makes me fear a bit for my kids, and also ticks me off as a bio major and (hopefully) soon-to-be Bio professor. Is this a common phenomenon among fundies? I've run into my fair share of christians trying to beat evolutionary biologists at their own game. I've had several friends express their desire to go into teaching so they can talk more about creation vs evolution. My sister is sort of like that too. A friend's boyfriend at Duke Univ was pursuing his Masters in Evolutionary Biology so he could "expose the fallacies of evolution" ... he eventually became a missionary. Great. Now he's spreading fallacious notions overseas.

On the other hand, I had a Bio AP teacher in High school who let us know that he personally didn't believe in evolution (he was also the faculty sponsor for the christian club on campus), but he said he was going to teach us everything about evolution because he wanted us to all pass the AP test... he was actually a pretty cool guy, and didn't push his beliefs in the classroom.

For your kids, I wish you and them luck... just keep an eye out on the materials they use and raise complaints if you have to... there's not much you can do, really.

I had 2 YECs in a vertebrate zoology course I taught last summer, but IIRC they had to take the course as part of the biology portion of their nursing degree, and weren't planning to teach. Scary. Yeah, every time I hear of YECs in the medical profession, it makes me wonder how they would deal with antibiotic-resistant TB ... I mean, if God created it, I guess the only way you can fight it is with... PRAYER! :rolleyes:

[Loki]

I didn't get a good look at her the first day, so I don't know if she's still in the class. Assuming she is, she's been quiet. I don't object to her being in the class, I object that she felt she had to say she disbelieved in evolution. Saying "I'm here because I want to learn about evolution" would have been sufficient.

The class is a small lecture (40-50 students), and has a mandatory lab section with it.

I guess I can't quite explain what i feel about the whole situation; to me, that girl reminded me of the people I know who try to explain to me why I'm wrong in accepting evolution and natural selection, and groups that try to push creation science in bio classrooms. I guess I love the science too much not to get riled when people try to debunk evolution for anything related to creationism.

[xorbie]

Just for the record, biology is not science

*runs and hides*

[Muad'Dib]

Originally posted by xorbie
Just for the record, biology is not science

*runs and hides* That's news to me. What am I doing, then, when I play with biomathematics?

Edit: Sorry, I completely missed that this was a joke. Just slap me. :D

[Buddrow_Wilson]

Originally posted by fried beef sandwich
...every time I hear of YECs in the medical profession, it makes me wonder how they would deal with antibiotic-resistant TB ... I mean, if God created it, I guess the only way you can fight it is with... PRAYER! :rolleyes:

They probably file it safely under "micro"-evolution.

[cheetah]

Did the professor say anything back to her? I can see that s/he might have wanted to give each student his/her unmitigated time, but thenagain, what the girl said seemed a pretty clear challenge, and I, being the stubborn person I am, wouldn't have been able to let it go and would have said something like, "We won't be proving or disproving evolution in this class...go to Bio 390 for that" or "We are not here to believe or not believe certain things, but to study the scientific method and the results that have been obtained. If you end up disagreeing with some of the conclusions, we should certainly discuss that."

As for your OP, it is amazing how bad it is out there! I live in a pretty liberal area, too, yet it is still majority religious, of course, and even quite a few more fundies than the average person might like. So, if it is so mediocre here, how bad might it be in Podunk, Mississippi? I guess it makes sense based on the demographics of our country, but it is sad that there are so many more fundylands than "freethought lands."