Does the word "eternity" prove that god exists?

[GypsyLife]

My boyfriend recently had a "deep" discussion with a star philosophy student at his Christian university. This girl argues that the existence of words like "heaven" and especially "eternity" can alone prove the existence of God. Human minds, she says, would never have thought up the idea of living forever, since everything in the world is finite, unless a supernatural being (the xian god)... told them so. Similarly, ideas like heaven are also too beyond human imagination.

Now.. to me this seems too easy to argue against. The interesting thing is that the professors of this star-student are patting her on the back and are amazed by her ideas. She supposedly has a book deal, which my boyfriend implies MUST make it valid.

I tried to have him ask her a few simple questions for me, but because this concept is being regarded as so revolutionary, he says she's keeping the details to herself and a few mentors.

An additional argument that she makes is the a new take on "the universe is so complex, there has to be a creator", which is also being kept classified until she is published or.. whatever.

The sad thing is that her arguments have launched my boytoy from indifferent to "hey, this ain't so bad... why are you an atheist again? don't you see how blessed you are?" etc.. <sigh>

Anyone see something to the "eternity" argument that I'm too brain dead to detect? What about leprechauns? (Wow! I spelled that right first try! :D)

[sir drinks-a-lot]

hmmm.... I think her proof needs to be fleshed out a little bit more. Infinity does not seem to be that tough of a concept to come up with. Look at the series of integers - even if you have a gazillion apples, you can always add one more.

[SaintCaffeine]

Someone back in mathematical history discovered that you can continue to divide any number in half as many times as you want but you will never reach zero. The number simply gets infinitely smaller.

So the concept of infinity or eternity is something that the human mind can see in the real world. Another example would be when you turn two mirrors facing each other and see the images repeated till they are too small to distinguish.

Why would the thought of an infinite number of years be proof of God or eternity?

[cpickett]

I think you are on the right track, we have thought of thousands of things that do not exist...

Santa Claus, Leprechauns, Bigfoot, Ghosts, Nessie, Chupacabra, Pumas (j/k), etc.

It's part of the human mind to be creative, most movies, music, books made today are not based on true things. Also I think that the word "eternity" would have come up even without a God, simply because of the natural fear of death, eternity is a comforting thought.

[beastmaster]

This argument is as old as dirt, and about as dumb as dirt too.

I read it from Descartes, who claimed that (1) humans can imagine god only if he actually exists, (2) humans can imagine god, (3) therefore, god exists. I wouldn't be surprised if others have thought of it before and independently after him as well.

This argument has many problems.

(1) is obviously highly problematic because we have plenty of words and concept that correspond to nothing real. Dragons for example. Moreover, it is kind of like arguing "people can be deluded only if that delusion is in fact not a delusion at all."

I also dispute (2). I believe that people in fact *can't* imagine god or heaven; people just know how to read, spell and say these words and are conditioned to vaguely associate them with positive things, but struggle in defining them in any meaningful sense.

In general, I think this argument is a bunch of bullshit semantics preying upon linguistic ambiguities. I understand that "eternity" exists only in the sense that "pornography" exists. Surely, there are examples of pornographic materials and there is a Set of All Examples of Pornography, but it does not follow that "pornography" exists in an a priori sense. Likewise, with "eternity" I think we can imagine examples of finite time and we can call "the Set of All Finite Time Put Together" an "eternity." But I don't think it follows that we can wrap our heads around eternity as existing a priori. At least I can't.

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Originally posted by SaintCaffeine
Someone back in mathematical history discovered that you can continue to divide any number in half as many times as you want but you will never reach zero. The number simply gets infinitely smaller.

So the concept of infinity or eternity is something that the human mind can see in the real world.

I'd have to disagree that infinity can be seen in the real world. After all, numbers and fractions are not part of the real world.

[Wyz_sub10]

I think it's much simpler than that.

Eternal life is an easy concept because

1) everyone knows what it's like to exist

2) non-existence is an almost impossible concept to fathom

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Originally posted by Wyz_sub10
I think it's much simpler than that.

Eternal life is an easy concept because

1) everyone knows what it's like to exist

2) non-existence is an almost impossible concept to fathom

Ah! Good point!

We all know how hard it is to imagine being dead. Much more difficult than imagining living forever.

[JaeIsGod]

This has to be one of the lamest arguments I ever read :)

[xorbie]

Well you see those pictures of the stairs that always go up but never go anywhere, or the nonexistant triangle. These are not only nonexistent, but not even based on any empirical or historical "smudges" as might be argued with Leprachauns, Santa or any of those other guys. Also, I don't see heaven as all that hard to fathom. I'm happy, I like it. Wouldn't it be nice if I was always happy? Well that's heaven.

[Division By Zero]

Originally posted by Wyz_sub10
I think it's much simpler than that.

Eternal life is an easy concept because

1) everyone knows what it's like to exist

2) non-existence is an almost impossible concept to fathom
Curses! I wanted to post that.

Yeah, once I read the (worthless) argument, this was the first thing I thought of. I cannot comprehend not existing. It's not easy to imagine infinity, either, but how many people actually contemplate the nature of infinity when they say they're going to live eternally in the afterlife? All they think about is the fact that they won't die, and thinking about not being dead isn't hard at all.

It also helps that people don't generally want to die.

The argument's garbage.

Similarly, ideas like heaven are also too beyond human imagination.
Why? A place where everything is good and nice and happy is somehow beyond the imagination of primitive people living in a harsh environment?

Now.. to me this seems too easy to argue against. The interesting thing is that the professors of this star-student are patting her on the back and are amazed by her ideas.
Of course they are. Bet they also patted her on the back for her research project that proves once and for all that rocks can't evolve.

[Clutch]

It's Descartes rehashed, all right, and it's every bit as goofy now as it was then.

There was a thread about it (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=978759#post978759) not long ago, in which I said my piece about the argument.

The real lesson to take away is how the bar is set at different heights for counting as a "star student"!

[Keith Russell]

Gypsey, neither you, your boyfriend, or 'this girl', can claim to know what we could imagine without 'God'--

--when none of you believe that we've ever been without 'God'...

K

[Shinobi]

Let her spend all that time and effort on her so called "revoluionary" book, then write a short 1 page pamphlet smacking it down. Distribute the pamphlet for free.

[Jobar]

Originally posted by Keith Russell
Gypsey, neither you, your boyfriend, or 'this girl', can claim to know what we could imagine without 'God'--

--when none of you believe that we've ever been without 'God'...

K

Keith, re-read the OP. GypsyLife is an atheist.

GL, to primitive men the physical world appeared infinite. The unchanging cycle of seasons, going on forever. The vast numbers of stars in the sky, or of grains of sand on the beach. Unendingness was probably one of the first really deep concepts thought of by humans; it might even be argued that the birth of such thoughts coincided with the birth of homo sapiens.

I'm interested to learn just how she goes from 'eternity' to 'Jesus died for your sins, so join the church and contribute to the building fund.' :D Always an amusing progression!

[pmurray]

It is not the case that humans cannot have words for things that do not actually exist in the "real world". Leprachauns, for instance, or a mathematical point.

[Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ]

Ask her to prove by deductive steps that this proves a specific God exists, and which one it is. Laugh when she tries, and can't.

[GypsyLife]

Originally posted by Division by Zero

Of course they are. Bet they also patted her on the back for her research project that proves once and for all that rocks can't evolve.

Good point.. <shaking head>

Originally posted by Jobar

I'm interested to learn just how she goes from 'eternity' to 'Jesus died for your sins, so join the church and contribute to the building fund.' :D Always an amusing progression!

Isn't it? I'm dying to know what else she's "discovered"... It's so easy it's fun. :)

[Ottman Out]

Also, there are different orders of infinity. There are only countably many integers, and countably many fractions, but uncountably many real numbers. In other words, there are just as many integers as there are fractions (even though the integers are a subset of the fractions), but there are more real numbers than integers.

Now I'd say that coming up with this idea of uncountable infinity was a substantially bigger leap than coming up with the simple idea of living forever, but somebody did it. Unless this so-called philosophy student is going to say that all of humanity's brilliant ideas have been planted by God?

[xorbie]

Well, I would suspect so, yes. You see that's the thing. She would probably say that God put the idea of Leprecahauns in our head, and then some other obtuse shit.

What you do with theists is let them make absurd comments like that to show God doesn't mind meddling with human minds, consiousness and free will, then just bring up the PoE, which can no longer be refuted.

[Just_An_Atheist]

"What you do with theists is let them make absurd comments like that to show God doesn't mind meddling with human minds, consiousness and free will, then just bring up the PoE, which can no longer be refuted."

I find that Christian theism is already rediculous enough to refute with PoE in the first place.;)

[Ryanfire]

existence of words like "heaven" and especially "eternity" can alone prove the existence of God. Human minds, she says, would never have thought up the idea of living forever, since everything in the world is finite, unless a supernatural being (the xian god)... told them so. Similarly, ideas like heaven are also too beyond human imagination.


First off, the universe is not finite, it has no boundary. Could time-space (the universe) expand into nothing? Could existence expand into non-existence, or vice versa? Existence spontaneously emerging from nothing is impossible.

For time-space to have a boundary, it would be surrounded by non-existence, non-space-time, essentially nothing, in which case there isn't a boundary, only a percieved boundary.

I'm afraid boundaries, limits, and non-existence are illusions. We humans always search for beginnings and endings. Giving a beginning and an end to infinity is impossible.

Existence is "eternity". For nothing to exist, existence is a prerequisite.


2) non-existence is an almost impossible concept to fathom


There is no eternity without existence :)

[Keith Russell]

Jobar, point taken.

GL, apologies.

Nevertheless...

...I often hear people talking about how impossible it would be for human beings to do this, or that, without 'God'.

Yet, their premise is that 'God' has always been with us, has always existed.

If that's true, there can be no way to know what humanity would be like, without 'God'...

K

[Wyrdsmyth]

No, no...

The word "succatash" is the proof God exists.

No mere mortal could have come up with such a word... that particular sequence of consonants and vowels is beyond the ability of a human mind to invent. Obviously, then, it must have a suprahuman origin.

And that is what we call God.

[Shadowy Man]

So I guess that every conceivable physics theory must also be true, eh?

[excreationist]

GypsyLife:
An eternity basically involves something of a neverending duration... so instead of someone living for 80 years then dying, they just keep on living - and living and living...
A similar idea is a car that never ever needs to be refueled... or a hole that is infinitely deep so that you'd fall forever if you fell into it... or a sack that you could pull an infinite number of toys out of...
It involves modifying the pattern of something.
e.g. a typical car drives for a while, then needs more fuel. (or its battery recharged) But you could modify that idea of a car - by removing the "needing more fuel" part... but keeping the driving part...
For an endless hole.... normal holes that you fall down involve some falling and then an end. And endless hole still has the falling part but doesn't have the end.
People can get patterns they find in one thing and apply it to others... e.g. they can sense "greenness" then imagine green dogs or green people. (They'd mostly do that to entertain themselves - I think people crave some "newness")
So people could experience some level of endlessness and apply it to other areas. (e.g. the water that falls out of the sky is a relatively endless amount - though it falls in limited durations) And if they can't experience endlessness they could extrapolate from lesser things.... e.g. if there was rain for a day they could imagine it raining 2 days then ending... or raining 3 days then ending... or raining for so long that the end never arrives...

[wiploc]

Originally posted by GypsyLife
Human minds, she says, would never have thought up the idea of living forever, since everything in the world is finite, unless a supernatural being (the xian god)... told them so.

Well, the idea of dying is easy enough, right? So the idea of not dying can't be far behind.



Similarly, ideas like heaven are also too beyond human imagination.

Which is why we've invented so many of them. The happy hunting grounds, the Elysian fields, Zanadu, etc.





Now.. to me this seems too easy to argue against. The interesting thing is that the professors of this star-student are patting her on the back and are amazed by her ideas. She supposedly has a book deal, which my boyfriend implies MUST make it valid.

That argument would lead to the conclusion that every published religion is valid. Along with _Chariots of the gods_.

If published ideas are valid, and valid ideas don't contradict each other, then nobody ever disagrees in print, right? :)

This one is fun to turn on its head. If the Christians had good ideas, then they wouldn't publish bad ideas. Therefore, the fact that they are going to publish this one is proof that all their other arguments are garbage too.





I tried to have him ask her a few simple questions for me, but because this concept is being regarded as so revolutionary, he says she's keeping the details to herself and a few mentors.

There can hardly be "details" to an idea this simple.




An additional argument that she makes is the a new take on "the universe is so complex, there has to be a creator", which is also being kept classified until she is published or.. whatever.

There can't be anything new here either. She can go with Craig, or with Behe, but she can't have a third way.


The sad thing is that her arguments have launched my boytoy from indifferent to "hey, this ain't so bad... why are you an atheist again? don't you see how blessed you are?" etc.. <sigh>

Anyone see something to the "eternity" argument that I'm too brain dead to detect? What about leprechauns? (Wow! I spelled that right first try! :D)

Just remember to hit him on both logic and emotion. Logic: there is no reason to think Christianity is true. Emotion: No matter how cute and charismatic the "star student" is, her religion is still an ugly religion, one that we wouldn't want to be true if we had the choice. You can't win anybody over without hitting both logic and emotion.

crc

[Aravnah Ornan]

Human minds would never have thought up the idea of reincarnation if a supernatural being hadn't told them about it. Praise Brahma!

[Barcode]

Funny really, because I've never thought the notion of " heaven " is something humans couldn't have dreamed up ... its always struck me as a very primitive explanation and a way of trying to make sense of our existence.

It's not difficult to see how we could come up with infinity either ... the human ego doesn't like to think of us not existing ... not having a supreme purpose ... a plan in the Universe ... infinity is all that is required to make us feel better psychologically it would seem.

All the philosophy student needs to do is explain why all the other God's don't exist and the Christian one does .... there, not a difficult task for her to do is it :)

[Quantum Ninja]

By this same argument, you can "prove" that all non-existent things which are conceivable necessarily exist.

The black-tailed smurgle surely exists. I just thought of one. I couldn't have thought of one if such a thing didn't exist...

[Boro Nut]

Originally posted by GypsyLife
Human minds, she says, would never have thought up the idea of living forever, since everything in the world is finite, unless a supernatural being (the xian god)... told them so.

Marvellous, and completely at odds with facts. I for one never met of a baby that knew it was going to die one day. That lovely little kernel of knowledge has to be broken to them gently over a period of many years, and if you are a teenager who actually deep down believes you may not be immortal and/or gives a shit, there is something definitely strange about you.

Boro Nut

[abe smith]

Uttering "words" or any sort of sounds whatever does not/ never PROVES a damn thing!