If your an Atheist then.....

[HuggyBear]

Obvioussly, the fundamental theory behind an Atheist and his "dogma" is the denial of an existence of God or any subsequent diety. If this is the case, please answer these three questions in a manner that does not insult any other religion and only supports your reasoning. If you read this post, but can't come up with answer, feel free to post that too. This is kinda like...a social survey for the forum.

1) Where do we come from?

2) What is the purpose of our lives?

3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows?


Thanks,
HuggyBear

[xorbie]

(1) On a micro level, we come from our parents. On a macro level, humans evolved from lower life forms, which in turn evolved from single celled organisms. These organisms came about through the process of abiogenisis, which is a relatively new study of biology. The best model we currently have for the origins of the universe is the Big Bang-Inflation model (AFAIK).

(2) The purpose of my life, from my POV, at any given time, is to be able to look back on my life and say "Good. I am happy." From the POV of others around me, the purpose of my life is usally to do whatever I can to make sure they can look at their life and say "Good. I am happy." From society's POV, my purpose is to do whatever I can to create a society in which there is the largest possible potential for people to say "Good. I am happy."

(3) Well, the "universal code of ethics" is hardly universal. There are still entire countries where women are routinely mutilated, tortured and killed. There are countries where babies are abandoned in the mountains. There are countries where slavery still exists. You have a very sheltered, provincial view of "universal," I am afraid. However, where this code of ethics does exist, it is largerely the result of the Englightenment, wherein people realised that objective morality could be derived from humanity, as opposed to God. This is rather ironic, considering the claims of many theists these days....

[Just_An_Atheist]

"Where do we come from?"

What do you mean? Are you suggesting that there's space outside of time and space that we could come from?

"What's the purpose of our lives?"

To survive and reproduce

"Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human being on earth follows?"

This seems to be a loaded question, you havn't even demonstrated that "a universal code of ethics" is yet, much less that it exists. Your use of the word "decent" also begs the question.

[markfiend]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
1) Where do we come from?
Our parents. And they came from their parents. Etc. Go back about 3.5 billion years, we came from bacteria (approximately)
2) What is the purpose of our lives?
None.
3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows?
Question begging. I presume you would agree that "decent" means someone who follows your code of ethics. So your question is "why is there a code of ethics that everyone, who follows that code of ethics, follows?"
In fact there is no universal code of ethics, just look at the polarity of opinion even among christians about the morality of abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality, etc. etc.
Thanks,
HuggyBear
No worries :D

[Viti]

1) Where do we come from? Humans reproduce sexually as do all mammals. Did you have something else in mind? Perhaps you could be more specific

2) What is the purpose of our lives? Again, could you be more specific? There is no divine purpose or plan if that is what you are getting at

3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows? Can you post this Universal Code of Ethics?

[Keith Russell]

1) Where do we come from?

I was born. Humanity evolved. Life sprang from non-living matter.

2) What is the purpose of our lives?

'Our' lives do not have a purpose, lives only have meaning from an individual perspective, and then only if the individual is able to provide his or her life with meaning.

3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows?

What do you mean by 'decent', just those who behave in a fashion you would describe as 'ethical'? (A circular--fallacious--argument.)

Several human societies atill practice cannibalism; numerous human cultures sentence people to death for what we might consider relatively minor offenses; numerous countries practice torture and other human rights violations. Slavery still exists, there are still dictatorships, wars, genocide...

I don't believe that there is a majority of 'decent' folks, and I certainly don't see such a majority practicing anything like a 'universal code of ethics'.

K

[Dr Rick]

Obviously, the fundamental theory behind a Christian and his "dogma" is the insistence of an extant God. If this is the case, please answer these three questions in a manner that does not insult any other religion and only supports your reasoning. If you read this post, but can't come up with an answer, feel free to post that too. This is kinda like...a social survey for the forum.

1) Where does God come from?

2) What is the purpose of His existence?

3) Why, if there is a God, is there no universal code of ethics that almost every human on earth follows?


Your welcome :)

[BioBeing]

Mainly, what xorbie said :notworthy

But I want to add to point 3: can you imagine what human society would be like if we didn't have some sort of "universal code"*? Basically, there wouldn't be human society. We have to live together, so we do.


* by which I mean we do not just around killing each other willy-nilly. Sometimes, we even help each other, if its not too much trouble.

[HuggyBear]

Where do we come from?

1)From a simply logical point, xorbie is the only respondent who even tried to trace back the existence of our species to the big bang theory (Thank you xorbie). Of course logically that all makes sense up until the point of when you ask the question....what about before the big bang theory?

Of course I know that we reproduce sexually and we come from our parents, I'm not a simpleton...please spare the prodding.

2) If there were no purpose for our lives, then why live at all? Why do you feel obliged to stay on earth if there were no point, unless of couse you were scared of death and what happens after death.

3) I'm sorry, it's not the "Univeral Code of Ethics" (notice how i didn't capitalize everything in my fist post LadyShea?), but the notion of Natural law propsed by that funny guy Aristotle around 314 b.c. Natural Law: A system of moral and ethical principles that are inherent in human nature and that people can discover through the use of their natural intelligence.

Yes, human atrocities occur everywhere through out the globe. I'm not saying that because natural law exists that people follow it. I'm simply saying why is there a natural law at all? Why do people feel so obliged to implement a system of governmental law, with a basis of natural law in societies that are organized enough to have a ruling government?

[HuggyBear]

Hey Dr. Rick,

I'm sorry I can't answer your first two questions. I'm not God, I don't know.

If I understood correctly, with number three your saying there is no universal code of ethics? If that's the case please refer my prior post. If not, could you clarrify what you mean please?

Thanks:)

[Mageth]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Obvioussly, the fundamental theory behind an Atheist and his "dogma" is the denial of an existence of God or any subsequent diety.

Well, I have no Atheistic Dogma. Nor do I "deny" the existence of god(s). As an atheist, I merely lack belief in god(s). That's the beginning, middle, and end of my atheism.

And now for the three questions, which have been asked and aswered countless times on this board:

1) Where do we come from?

I came from my parents, who came from their parents, etc...back to the original life which emerged on this earth.

2) What is the purpose of our lives?

I may have one or more "purposes" in my life, you may have one or more different purposes, and Joe Schmo down the street may have no purpose at all. Your life is what you make of it.

3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows?

Well, whatever codes of ethics we have, and there is not a universal code of ethics that I know of outside of "don't shit where you eat", it's because we, as humans, need to live by some basic "code of ethics" to survive in groups; thus, we've created such codes, which we learn from our parents and society in general and then pass on to our children.

[Calzaer]

Natural Law: A system of moral and ethical principles that are inherent in human nature and that people can discover through the use of their natural intelligence.

I see no evidence for the existence of such a thing.

[HuggyBear]

And why is that, Calzaer?

[Calzaer]

Also:

1) Where does God come from?

I don't know

Makes me wish I could find that happy little animated .gif.

[God Created] the Universe
[God] just exists.

Cut out the brackets, and what do we have?
"the Universe justs exists."

Occam's razor. It slices, it dices, it removes unecessary supernatural entities.

[Bloop]

1. Much like xorbies answer

2. No ultimate purpose. What you make of it.

3. I don't believe in an universal code of ethics inherent in all humans.Morals and ethic systems are dependant on human empathy, reason, emotions etc. etc. and vary to a great degree in time and space so to speak.

[Calzaer]

And why is that, Calzaer?

Um... because you haven't actually presented any evidence for its existence?

If you expect me to just take your word for it, you may as well just go ahead and say "God exists." At least then you cut out the middleman.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
And why is that, Calzaer?

I'll answer. Moral and ethical principles are not inherent in human nature; they are learned behaviors. If you've had a child, you would know that even the most basic moral and ethical behaviors must be learned by the child. Behavioral science has taught us that a child that grows up without guidance in such matters will be asocial (unwilling or unable to conform to normal standards of social behavior). There are several "wolf boy" examples of this in the literature.

[Just_An_Atheist]

"Natural Law: A system of moral and ethical principles that are inherent in human nature and that people can discover through the use of their natural intelligence. "

What is a moral, or ethical principle?

How would/could it be inherit in nature?

Why should we care about natural law?

[Viti]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Where do we come from?

1)From a simply logical point, xorbie is the only respondent who even tried to trace back the existence of our species to the big bang theory (Thank you xorbie). Of course logically that all makes sense up until the point of when you ask the question....what about before the big bang theory?

Of course I know that we reproduce sexually and we come from our parents, I'm not a simpleton...please spare the prodding. How are we to know what you already assume? This was your first post. People have come here with all kinds of crazy notions. We don't know whether you are or are not a simpleton.

Before the big bang? Technically there can't be a "before" since time and space came into existence at that point. But, I know what you are saying and the answer is, I don't know. Some theories sound plausible to me. My gut feeling is that the Universe has always existed in some form, but what that form might have been prior to the big bang I can't imagine.

2) If there were no purpose for our lives, then why live at all? Why do you feel obliged to stay on earth if there were no point, unless of couse you were scared of death and what happens after death. Well, I am here, I didn't choose to be born but here I am...going to make the best of it and experience what I can in the short time I am here. I enjoy life and the people in it, why would I want to not live? Should I not enjoy eating ice cream because at the end, it's gone and there is point? Some of the most worthwhile things in life have no real "point"

I am not scared of death at all, we simply return to the state we were in prior to being born...non-existence.

3) I'm sorry, it's not the "Univeral Code of Ethics" (notice how i didn't capitalize everything in my fist post LadyShea?), but the notion of Natural law propsed by that funny guy Aristotle around 314 b.c. Natural Law: A system of moral and ethical principles that are inherent in human nature and that people can discover through the use of their natural intelligence.

Yes, human atrocities occur everywhere through out the globe. I'm not saying that because natural law exists that people follow it. I'm simply saying why is there a natural law at all? Why do people feel so obliged to implement a system of governmental law, with a basis of natural law in societies that are organized enough to have a ruling government? I don't think there is an objective natural law. Social animals develop their own behaviors that benefit the individual and group as a whole. It makes surviving to reproduce hella easier if you aren't killed and eaten as an infant. There is no objective "natural law" that can be discovered.

[HuggyBear]

Calzaer, if your a wiccan in training, why did you even bother to respond to my post? You are not an Atheist. This fact just made you points illegitimate. :banghead:


Originally posted by Calzaer
Occam's razor. It slices, it dices, it removes unecessary supernatural entities.

Dieties Involved with Wicca/Pagganism:
The All
The Goddess
The God
Athena, Brigit, Ceridwen, Diana, Hecate, Ishtar, Isis, Venus
Adonis, Apollo, Dionysus, Odin, Osiris, Pan, Thor, Zeus





Continuing on:

If you can't accept the fact that there is a natural law, then that must logically mean that there is no law. If there was no law, this would result in anarachy.

Even in the smallest villages there is a system of order, a chief may lead or a council, but regardless there is law. Where does law come from if not from some derivitive of natural law?

[HuggyBear]

Originally posted by LadyShea

Before the big bang? Technically there can't be a "before" since time and space came into existence at that point. But, I know what you are saying and the answer is, I don't know. Some theories sound plausible to me.

My gut feeling is that the Universe has always existed in some form, but what that form might have been prior to the big bang I can't imagine.

I didn't know time was created with the big bang. I thought it was an assumption that time was infinite.

My gut feeling

Starting to sound like having faith in something. Erriely similar to what a young theist faith sounds like. "I feel something there, I just don't know what".

[Mageth]

Calzaer, if your a wiccan in training, why did you even bother to respond to my post? You are not an Atheist. This fact just made you points illegitimate.

Umm, no it doesn't. Try again.

If you can't accept the fact that there is a natural law, then that must logically mean that there is no law.

Umm, no it doesn't. There is man-made law.

If there was no law, this would result in anarachy.

That's why we have man-made laws.

Even in the smallest villages there is a system of order, a chief may lead or a council, but regardless there is law. Where does law come from if not from some derivitive of natural law?

From the villagers, obviously.

[Mageth]

I didn't know time was created with the big bang. I thought it was an assumption that time was infinite.

Umm, no, it's not an assumption of the Big Bang theory that time is infinite. Time is a dimension of the universe (space-time), and came into existence with the universe.

[joedad]

Asking "where we came from" assumes we were once somewhere else. Where would that be?

You are free to decide your life's purpose, unless you submit to some type of divine command theory.

Specify your "universal code of ethics" and I'll give that one a stab.

[Calzaer]

Huggy: Why? Because you don't have to be an atheist to realize your arguments are deeply flawed. If your entire argument for the existence of God (an argument, I might add, that you EXPECT TO CONVINCE PEOPLE WITH) is "where did the universe come from", you obviously think we're really stupid. Why is your "I don't know" not faith-shattering, like you expect our "I don't know"s to be?

If you can't accept the fact that there is a natural law, then that must logically mean that there is no law.

Now that thar's a real purty straw man. Don't seem ta be foolin' the crows, tho.

Please stop insulting our intelligence with this bifurcation drivel. Natrual law is the only law? The same natural law that encourages lions to eat their babies?

[HuggyBear]

But where do men derive their laws?


Calzaer, if your a wiccan in training, why did you even bother to respond to my post? You are not an Atheist. This fact just made you points illegitimate.

I'm sorry, I just can't hold the word of a man that has confused his ideology as highly as a man which has a solid foundation to argue from.

If I were to try to sell you Coke wearing a Pepsi unifrom, wouldn't you find it a little confusing? Granted Coke is Coke and Pepsi is Pepsi, it is confusing if you get mixed symbols.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
But where do men derive their laws?

In the Capitol Building? In the Tribal Counsel Hut?

I'm sorry, I just can't hold the word of a man that has confused his ideology as highly as a man which has a solid foundation to argue from.

If I were to try to sell you Coke wearing a Pepsi unifrom, wouldn't you find it a little confusing? Granted Coke is Coke and Pepsi is Pepsi, it is confusing if you get mixed symbols.

You're making an ad hominem attack on Calzaer - you're arguing "against the man" in trying to discredit his arguments. Arguments stand or fall on their own merit, not on the particular qualifications of the presenter.

[Viti]

Starting to sound like having faith in something. Erriely similar to what a young theist faith sounds like. "I feel something there, I just don't know what". It's not faith, it's just my assumption based on what I have read and know of the Universe. I stated clearly my answer is "I don't know". Let's just change "gut feeling" to "working hypothesis"...I have no evidence it is based on and if evidence of my being wrong comes to light, I will change my thinking. Currently nothing definitive can be said, so I can accept that the Universe has always existsed in some form or another, the actual answer is not relevant to my life.

BTW, it's "If you're an atheist"

[HuggyBear]

Ok, fine. Your right. :D I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that. I just don't understand the point of supporting an argument against God and basic humanities, when in fact one you are involved in a religion that supports a god or two and has rights which relate to a natural law of sorts.

In the Capitol Building? In the Tribal Counsel Hut?

Very funny. What I was getting at by asking; Where do men get there laws?

Was: if it isn't natural law which manifest into man's law, then what is the deductive logic of inciting a law which prohibits murder? I mean if there isn't some sort of ethical problem with murder, why isn't it legal?

[HuggyBear]

BTW, it's "If you're an atheist"

:boohoo: lol. I know.

[Hedshaker]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Obvioussly, the fundamental theory behind an Atheist and his "dogma" is the denial of an existence of God or any subsequent diety. If this is the case, please answer these three questions in a manner that does not insult any other religion and only supports your reasoning. If you read this post, but can't come up with answer, feel free to post that too. This is kinda like...a social survey for the forum.

1) Where do we come from?

2) What is the purpose of our lives?

3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows?


Thanks,
Ryan Brantley

1) we evolved naturally like everything else on this planet which shows no evidence what-so-ever of anything the remotest bit supernatural.

2) To suvive, thrive and make babies, oh, and enjoy life if at all possible.

3) If there is such a thing as a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows then it evolved naturally along with civilization

[Hedshaker]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Obvioussly, the fundamental theory behind an Atheist and his "dogma" is the denial of an existence of God or any subsequent diety. If this is the case, please answer these three questions in a manner that does not insult any other religion and only supports your reasoning. If you read this post, but can't come up with answer, feel free to post that too. This is kinda like...a social survey for the forum.

1) Where do we come from?

2) What is the purpose of our lives?

3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows?


Thanks,
Ryan Brantley

1) we evolved naturally like everything else on this planet which shows no evidence what-so-ever of anything the remotest bit supernatural.

2) To suvive, thrive and make babies, oh, and enjoy life if at all possible.

3) If there is such a thing as a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows then it evolved naturally along with civilization

[Just_An_Atheist]

"I mean if there isn't some sort of ethical problem with murder, why isn't it legal?"

Because the majority of the people don't want to be murdered, so they use brute force to make sure that doesn't happen. You don't need to refer to ethics to sort that one out.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Very funny. What I was getting at by asking; Where do men get there laws?

Was: if it isn't natural law which manifest into man's law, then what is the deductive logic of inciting a law which prohibits murder? I mean if there isn't some sort of ethical problem with murder, why isn't it legal?

There's an ethical problem with murder because we've invented an ethical problem with murder out of self-interest and compassion. Basically, I don't want to be killed (murdered), you don't want to be murdered, no one wants to be murdered, and I, being human, can recognize that, like me, neither you nor anyone else wants to be murdered. So we, in order to live together peacefully in a society without murdering each other, get together (in the Capitol building or the tribal counsel hut ;) ) and decide we're going to make a tribal law or taboo against murder. I agree to it because I sure as hell don't want to be murdered, or to have anyone in my family murdered.

Actually, a contributing factor may actually be the "natural" tendency or reluctance to not kill other members of one's species, particularly those in one's group. Many species in nature exhibit this trait; it's not too surprising that humans do as well. This is not "natural law", though, it's an evolved trait that helps species survive (species that tend to kill members of their own species when encountering them won't do too well in competition with a species, or even another group within the species, that tend not to kill members of their own species). But note that, as humans, we are not necessarily ruled by such natural tendencies.

[HuggyBear]

So your saying, you would stop your neighbor from murdering your child, because you yourself wouldn't want to be murdered at some point down the road?

[Celsus]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
1) Where do we come from?
Stardust
2) What is the purpose of our lives?
Whatever we decide it to be

3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows?
You're begging the question. Establish that there is in fact a universal code of ethics.

Joel

[Calzaer]

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that. I just don't understand the point of supporting an argument against God and basic humanities, when in fact one you are involved in a religion that supports a god or two and has rights which relate to a natural law of sorts.

Because supporting these fine folks against your people will ensure that I continue to practice my own religion in a non-theocracy.

Further, I have this thing about evidence. I have subjective evidence for the existence of god that I don't EVER expect ANYONE but me to believe. Therefore, someone trying to prove god through this sort of logical fellatio bothers me to no end. If all it took to get someone to believe in YOUR god (ie, Yaweh) was to ask "where did the universe come from", we'd all be Bible-thumping Christian demogogues by now. Do you really think you're so clever that nobody has thought to ask this question before? :rolleyes:

But ok, fine, we'll go with your base premise. Where did the universe come from? Where did natural law come from? MY god. Your god is false and you're going to come back in your next life as a slug if you keep trying to convince people that YOUR fake-o god should get credit for all of this stuff.

There, happy now?

[Hedshaker]

and btw, if there's such thing as 'the fundamental theory behind an Atheist and his "dogma" ' it's that you can keep your nasty spitful god all for your self. :D

bya

[Mageth]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
So your saying, you would stop your neighbor from murdering your child, because you yourself wouldn't want to be murdered at some point down the road?

Well, not really. Protecting my child from murder is a bit different than protecting myself from murder. I'd be willing to sacrifice myself to save my child from murder, or even to "murder" my neighbor to protect my child (or someone else's child, even my neighbor's child) from murder, if it came to that.

Perhaps a more relevant thing to say is that I'm against children being murdered because I don't want my child murdered.

[Aethernaut]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Obvioussly, the fundamental theory behind an Atheist and his "dogma" is the denial of an existence of God or any subsequent diety.

This statement is flawed. Most atheists do not have a "dogma" of any sort and for the most part atheism is simply a lack (lack not denial) of belief, to varying degrees, in a god or gods. Outright positive denial of a god or gods is strong atheism. A view which few on these forums hold. If you were addressing only the strong atheists on these forums you should be more concise in your wording.

1) Where do we come from?

I don't know. No one knows with any absolute certainty beyond family ancestory (and that could be spotty :D ) but there are many theories which are much more logically plausible than an invisible person(s) in the sky poofed us into existence.

You're certainly welcome to believe in any mythology you choose but I think I'll stick with more up-to-date sources of information.

2) What is the purpose of our lives?

I have several purposes in my life. I'm sure you do, as well.

I see no evidence for any overarching single driving purpose in life for any of the creatures on this planet beyond eating and breeding. Humans just have more complex thinky bits than most of the other creatures here.

3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows?

As has been pointed out by several others here, to what "universal code of ethics" are you refering? I want to see hard evidence before I make a call on this one.

I'd also be interest in your definition of "every decent human," emphasis mine.

[HuggyBear]

1) I used to be Wiccan.

2) I don't condemn anyone for believing something else.

3) I don't think I'm clever.

4) With my acceptance of Christ, I understand this:

We don't know anything.

There is good and evil in this world.

Christians are the only religion left being persecuted. I will be attacked for my beliefs.

God created us by His love. Why do you think almost every top 40 song on the radio has to do with love, the absence of it or the substitution for it?

Anyone who does not believe in Christ, let alone God, will think my values are complete rubbish and will sigh and say "Just another silly Christian". Of course this is the way the master of this age works. The blind will remain blind.

I used to persecute Christians for there rediculous concepts of the world. Now nothing but christianity makes sense.

I spent my whole life hating and arguing why Christians are idiots and fakes. I spent my life contemplating our existence. If you think you have a question which stumps the whole theocracy of Christianity, then congradulations to you, you must be filled with life-long satisfaction.

There are many answers to those questions which people can't answer. Unfortunately, faith is required. Faith is the whole foundation of logic for Christianity. The problem for the logic agruement and faith is that there is no logic for it.

[Just_An_Atheist]

"We don't know anything."

Then how do you know that Christianity is true?

[BioBeing]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows?

What code of ethics then do the rest of the decent humans (which I too would like you to define) follow? You said "almost every", not simply "every". Does this excluded sub-group follow a different universal code, according to you????

[HuggyBear]

I'm sorry I meant to say, we don't know anything in regards to the plans of God.



I'm sorry guys, I'm just going to have to lay down the sword with this one. There is ultimately no reason to be debating over the internet.

God bless.

Have a good one,
Ryan

[Aethernaut]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Christians are the only religion left being persecuted.

This seems to be a popular notion among American Christians. Funny, considering that the United States is overwhelmingly (80-something %, if I remember correctly) Christian in faith.

I guess someone should tell the Tibetan Buddhists and the Pakistani Hindus that they aren't being persecuted for their faith then.

[Keith Russell]

Huggy said:
"Christians are the only religion left being persecuted."

You haven't been to the West Bank or Gaza lately, have you Huggy?

K

[HuggyBear]

80% attend church.

22% believe in Jeses.

I don't remember the rest of the numbers, but true Christians are dwendling.

[HuggyBear]

That isn't persecution, that's a land battle between two religions.

[BioBeing]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Christians are the only religion left being persecuted.

What about when other Christians sects are the ones doing the persecuting - like the Catholics vs the Protestants in N. Ireland? Or the fact that most of the School prayer lawsuits have been brought by one group of Christians against another? Do you persecute each other on purpose just to keep this myth alive?

[Mageth]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
We don't know anything.

Then you need to put qualifiers on everything you say below this statement.

There is good and evil in this world.

We label things that happen as good and evil, anyway.

Christians are the only religion left being persecuted. I will be attacked for my beliefs.

Huh? How exactly are Christians being persecuted, particularly in the U.S.? And are you so sure that no other religions are being "persecuted"?

And it's your assertions that are being "attacked", not you.

God created us by His love. Why do you think almost every top 40 song on the radio has to do with love, the absence of it or the substitution for it?

What is this, the Argument from Pop Culture?

Anyone who does not believe in Christ, let alone God, will think my values are complete rubbish and will sigh and say "Just another silly Christian". Of course this is the way the master of this age works. The blind will remain blind.

Aah, the old Argument from The Bible Says You'd Say My Beliefs Are Foolish (because the DEVIL is blindin' you).

I used to persecute Christians for there rediculous concepts of the world. Now nothing but christianity makes sense.

I spent my whole life hating and arguing why Christians are idiots and fakes. I spent my life contemplating our existence. If you think you have a question which stumps the whole theocracy of Christianity, then congradulations to you, you must be filled with life-long satisfaction.

I fail to see the relevance of this particular rant.

There are many answers to those questions which people can't answer. Unfortunately, faith is required. Faith is the whole foundation of logic for Christianity. The problem for the logic agruement and faith is that there is no logic for it.

Oh, OK. I think it odd that you apparently think the need for faith is "unfortunate"; reading the NT, that seems to be something God intended.

[HuggyBear]

Actually Bio, the Church will be a one of three sources of persecution. The common misconception of non-believers is that the church (like your local baptist/catholic/whatever chruch) is the definitive structure of our religion.

It isn't very well know that the true church are those that truly believe. Obviouslly, within a local church you can have believers and non-believers.

So yes, the church will persecute/attach Christianity and their following. For example, the church of Jesus Christ and the latterday saints (sp?) preaches a twisted version of Christianity. For them, the only way to heaven is to follow what some guy wrote in a book called the book of Morman. This fundamental Christian fact: The way to heaven is through the belief of Jesus and the his sacrafice for our sins.

[Autonemesis]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Of course logically that all makes sense up until the point of when you ask the question....what about before the big bang theory?

Where did god come from? If you can't answer that question, then how is your god-theory any "better" than the big-bang theory?

2) If there were no purpose for our lives, then why live at all? Why do you feel obliged to stay on earth if there were no point, unless of couse you were scared of death and what happens after death.

I am no more scared of death than I am scared of the time period before I was born. I did not exist then, and it does not make me afraid. Death will be a non-experience indistinguishable from not-having-been-born-yet.


[Yes, human atrocities occur everywhere through out the globe. I'm not saying that because natural law exists that people follow it.

Then it's not much of a law, and hardly universal. The 2nd Law of thermodynamics is never violated in any place we have looked for potential violations. The natural law must be a much weaker form of law, so weak that it doesn't even deserve the name "law." It is certainly not comparable to other natural laws or mathematical laws, as you'd have us believe.

[Aethernaut]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Actually Bio, the Church will be a one of three sources of persecution. The common misconception of non-believers is that the church (like your local baptist/catholic/whatever chruch) is the definitive structure of our religion.

It isn't very well know that the true church are those that truly believe. Obviouslly, within a local church you can have believers and non-believers.

So yes, the church will persecute/attach Christianity and their following. For example, the church of Jesus Christ and the latterday saints (sp?) preaches a twisted version of Christianity. For them, the only way to heaven is to follow what some guy wrote in a book called the book of Morman. This fundamental Christian fact: The way to heaven is through the belief of Jesus and the his sacrafice for our sins.


No true Scotsman fallacy?

[HuggyBear]

And yes, by persecution, I mean an assault on our beliefs.

And yes the devil comes in many forms which will keep the infidel blind. The problem is this. I have found definitive answers with no loose ends that need to be tied up, while you have found answers which only lead to more questions. This is the fault of having logic and science run your life.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Christians are the only religion left being persecuted
...
And yes, by persecution, I mean an assault on our beliefs.

and:

So yes, the church will persecute/attach Christianity and their following. For example, the church of Jesus Christ and the latterday saints (sp?) preaches a twisted version of Christianity. For them, the only way to heaven is to follow what some guy wrote in a book called the book of Morman. This fundamental Christian fact: The way to heaven is through the belief of Jesus and the his sacrafice for our sins.

Congratulations; you have just disproved your assertion that "Christians are the only religion left being persecuted", as by your own definition you have just persecuted the Mormons. ;)

[HuggyBear]

That is not persecution, that is a statement of the facts. Go ask a mormon the way to heaven and he'll tell you that which I just told.

Ask any Christian the way to heaven and he will reitterate what I said.

[Aethernaut]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
The problem is this. I have found definitive answers with no loose ends that need to be tied up, while you have found answers which only lead to more questions.

Are you omniscient? You can't possibly make a sweeping statement like this that is true without omniscience and/or telepathy.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
And yes the devil comes in many forms which will keep the infidel blind.

I thought the Bible says that God blinds us infidels? Is he just another form of the Devil?

The problem is this. I have found definitive answers with no loose ends that need to be tied up, while you have found answers which only lead to more questions.

Then what of your statement:

There are many answers to those questions which people can't answer. Unfortunately, faith is required. Faith is the whole foundation of logic for Christianity. The problem for the logic agruement and faith is that there is no logic for it.

This is the fault of having logic and science run your life.

Personally, I don't see the problem with there being more questions to answer. Actually, that's one of the "purposes" of life that make it interesting.

[Autonemesis]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
So your saying, you would stop your neighbor from murdering your child, because you yourself wouldn't want to be murdered at some point down the road?

No, I would stop it because I have empathy and love for my child, and witnessing his suffering causes suffering within myself. Not doing anything about it would increase that suffering.

On another level, a parent instinctively protects his offspring. This is genetically determined behavior. All our rationalizations about why we'd protect a child may be just that: rationalizing a sensible explanation for behavior and emotions over which we have little or no control, and little desire to change.

[HuggyBear]

Anyway, that was in order to back-up a statement of a matter of persecution.

It is stated in the Bible that leading up to the second coming the three sources of persecution will come from:

The majority opinion
The Church
The Government

I was giving an example of how the church can easily misguide believers.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Anyway, that was in order to back-up a statement of a matter of persecution.

So you used what you yourself described as "persecution" to back up a statement on the matter of persecution? Fascinating.

[Autonemesis]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
The problem is this. I have found definitive answers with no loose ends that need to be tied up, while you have found answers which only lead to more questions. This is the fault of having logic and science run your life.

What if there really are no final answers to any of these questions, but only more questions? Wouldn't your religious beliefs be leading you astray in that case?

[Aethernaut]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
It is stated in the Bible that leading up to the second coming the three sources of persecution will come from:

The majority opinion
The Church
The Government


And what are the verses that specifically state that there will be persecution from "The majority opinion," "The Church," and "The Government" in the days leading to the second coming?

To which majority, church, and government are they refering? Considering the hundreds of nations and thousands of denomonations of various world religions it seems the big book would be more specific.

And perhaps you can give me a date of this supposed second coming (I'm assuming you're refering to Christ's second coming)? It's been more than 2000 years and there is no sign of him showing up yet.

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
I have found definitive answers with no loose ends that need to be tied up,


You think they're answers. In fact they're no answers at all. "Why does this happen?" - "Because God made it so." - "Why did God make it so?" - "Don't ask question about God". That's where "theistic answers" get you.


This is the fault of having logic and science run your life.

Hear ye this, all! The man admits to dispensing with logic and science! Need we continue this debate at all? :D

[BioBeing]

Most of my post deleted 'coz others have said what I was going to say anyway. I type too slowly.

[Aethernaut]

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn
Hear ye this, all! The man admits to dispensing with logic and science! Need we continue this debate at all? :D

:D

I'll never get the Christian poo-pooing away of logic and science but the continued use of the computer that logic, science, and engineering have provided. Not to mention modern medicine, the automobile, vacuum packaging, electricity, television, etc! :D

If logic and science truly provided no answers and only more questions which is supposedly a bad thing (which, in my opinion, is not a bad thing at all, questions are good) then surely god would have poofed all of these modern conveniences into existence to keep man from having to discover them on his own.

I can already hear the "they were divinely inspired" argument coming down the tracks. :)

[Autonemesis]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
I spent my whole life hating and arguing why Christians are idiots and fakes.

I only spend a a little while a few days a week, on this site. In person, I generally avoid the question since discussion of dissenting views is usually seen as a personal attack by believers with whom I might have a face-to-face discussion.

If you think you have a question which stumps the whole theocracy of Christianity, then congradulations to you, you must be filled with life-long satisfaction.

Yes in fact, I do, but I'd rather be sailing. Or having sex. Or tasting a fine wine.

There are many answers to those questions which people can't answer. Unfortunately, faith is required. Faith is the whole foundation of logic for Christianity. The problem for the logic agruement and faith is that there is no logic for it.

Well, yeah. Of course. That's why I am atheist.

[Autonemesis]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
For example, the church of Jesus Christ and the latterday saints (sp?) preaches a twisted version of Christianity.

Funny, Mormons think the same thing about your brand of Christianity.

For them, the only way to heaven is to follow what some guy wrote in a book called the book of Morman.

No it isn't. You know nothing about Mormon theology. By your own admission, you know nothing about anything.

This fundamental Christian fact: The way to heaven is through the belief of Jesus and the his sacrafice for our sins.

How can you know that if you can know nothing, as you have already admitted in an earlier post?

[Mageth]

How can you know that if you can know nothing, as you have already admitted in an earlier post?

Well, HuggyBear as much as admits that Logic is not to be trusted. ;)

[Calzaer]

That is not persecution, that is a statement of the facts.

Funny, I say the same thing when I'm accused of persecuting Christianity.

But of course, I'm wrong and you're right, just because you say so. Isn't that what all your "arguments" boil down to anyway?

[Autonemesis]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Go ask a mormon the way to heaven and he'll tell you that which I just told.


1. WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Those are the first four Articles of Faith for Mormons. Looks like a typical post-Reformation representation of Christianity, with emphasis on works as well as faith (except for the rejection of original sin, of course). You do realize that not all Christian sects believe faith alone will save you? You may disagree with that tenet, but you can hardly disagree that those Christian sects that believe works and obedience to the laws of God are also needed, are not Christian, can you? Episcopalians, Catholics, Lutherans, and so on are surely Christian sects, aren't they? Their views are similar to Mormon views, but the details of the rites and ordinances they practice are different, but that's about all that separates them.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
That is not persecution, that is a statement of the facts. Go ask a mormon the way to heaven and he'll tell you that which I just told.

The Christian God does not exist, and the Bible is for the most part myth. There's no heaven and no hell.

That is not persecution, that is a statement of the facts. Go ask just about any Atheist and he or she will tell you pretty much that which I've just said.

[Hedshaker]

Originally posted by Mageth
The Christian God does not exist, and the Bible is for the most part myth. There's no heaven and no hell.

That is not persecution, that is a statement of the facts. Go ask just about any Atheist and he or she will tell you pretty much that which I've just said.

I second that :D

[Spenser]

I can only assume I'm not the only one that finds this post and the manner in which the original poster carried it out insulting both personally and intellectually...

[penumbra]

posted by Spenser I can only assume I'm not the only one that finds this post and the manner in which the original poster carried it out insulting both personally and intellectually...

I'm pretty hard to insult. I actually find it rather sad.

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
That is not persecution, that is a statement of the facts. Go ask a mormon the way to heaven and he'll tell you that which I just told.

Ask any Christian the way to heaven and he will reitterate what I said.

My best friend in high school was Mormon. According to her, Mormons get to heaven the same way anyone else in the Xtian faith does. The only difference is their concept of what heaven is like.

[Samnell]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Why do you think almost every top 40 song on the radio has to do with love, the absence of it or the substitution for it?

Sex is fun.

[dienekes]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Ask any Christian the way to heaven and he will reitterate what I said.

I asked my Christian friend and you know what he said? That God has already planned who will go to heaven or who will not. He said that those who has been given the gift of "faith" will be sent to heaven and the rest, to hell. There is no freewill and we are all following God's Plan(like robots). He said he got it from some verses in the bible like Epphesians 2:8-10 and 1:11-12, Romans 9: 17-18...

Is he speaking the truth?:D

[Wayne Delia]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Obvioussly, the fundamental theory behind an Atheist and his "dogma" is the denial of an existence of God or any subsequent diety. If this is the case, please answer these three questions in a manner that does not insult any other religion and only supports your reasoning. If you read this post, but can't come up with answer, feel free to post that too. This is kinda like...a social survey for the forum.

1) Where do we come from?

I come from Poughkeepsie, NY.

2) What is the purpose of our lives?

Mine is to get the hell out of Poughkeepsie, NY.

WMD

[orpheus last chant]

I would like to add some things, concerning what huggy bear has posted so far:




2) If there were no purpose for our lives, then why live at all? Why do you feel obliged to stay on earth if there were no point, unless of couse you were scared of death and what happens after death.


You know there is that funny guy Camus, he compared human life with the myth of Sisyphus. Sisyphus pushed a stone up a mountain for ever, and without any purpose. Life is absurd and meaningless but:


"
The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a human heart. One must imagine that Sisyphus is happy."

Albert Camus
The Myth of Sisyphus




But where do men derive their laws?
and
Where do men get there laws?


They get it from experience. Bad experiences show them that anarchy is not as good as a set of laws.




There is good and evil in this world.


And there is some stuff that ain't good or evil, like the colour red, or pumkin pie. And the notion of good and bad differ by the circumstances. You would think that killing is wrong, but when it comes to killing one person to save 100, those black and white lines get blurry.


Christians are the only religion left being persecuted. I will be attacked for my beliefs.


Poor little christians, who get killed for their beliefs and for refusing to imprint a number on their hand. Oh wait, that a movie. What persecution?


God created us by His love. Why do you think almost every top 40 song on the radio has to do with love, the absence of it or the substitution for it?


Yes and a complex and (subjectively) beautiful feeling like love can be captured in cliche lines like "shape of my heart"... sure.


Anyone who does not believe in Christ, let alone God, will think my values are complete rubbish and will sigh and say "Just another silly Christian". Of course this is the way the master of this age works.


No, some of your values are good and some are just... ancient. Depends if you act on them.


The blind will remain blind.


And the arrogant will remain arrogant.


I used to persecute Christians for there rediculous concepts of the world. Now nothing but christianity makes sense.


I used to laugh at atheists for being mad at god. Now everything makes sense. (and I feel really embarrased too)


There are many answers to those questions which people can't answer.


So are we suppose to invent the answers, or choose the comforting ones? Reality does not change according to our desires. Some things we shall never know. We shall know nothing for sure. Some things are just hard to know, like the limit of our existence, but there is no reason to isolate yourself inside one ideology, any ideology and not confront it with a little doubt.
A belief is justified by constant doubt and cross checking. for example, with what means do you dismiss other religions? did you ever try to apply them on your own?


Unfortunately, faith is required. Faith is the whole foundation of logic for Christianity.


They go hand in hand, like oil and water.


The problem for the logic agruement and faith is that there is no logic for it.
[QUOTE]

And what do we do about that problem? Do we admit to ourselves that it has no logic,and anything that is illogical is (mist likely) bunk?


[QUOTE]
And yes the devil comes in many forms which will keep the infidel blind.


Let's invent another non-falsifiable hypothesis. And the devil with come in many forms and keep the christians blind, because christians and other religions never can see (in their heart) that Zeus is the true god, and there are no gods except him. Oh, and logic does not apply to Zeus, faith only. How do i know this? How can i prove this? Beats me. Remember no proof, faith.


The problem is this. I have found definitive answers with no loose ends that need to be tied up, while you have found answers which only lead to more questions. This is the fault of having logic and science run your life.


Fault? But what makes you think in the first place that everything in this life is easy to answer, definitely? How can you be sure that you are not wrong? To think that you can rapp it up in a couple of answers the great mystery of this world is .... you think about the right word.

And since you found these definitive answers how come you can't answers those already put by anothe poster:

where did god come from ? etc.

I see you have just as much loose ends as the rest of us. The definitive diffrence is that you dare not ask.


Reflections on a mote of dust (http://www.seds.org/billa/psc/pbd.html)

[CX]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
1) Where do we come from?

Our parents.

2) What is the purpose of our lives?

The purpose we choose. (Mine is my children and children's education in general)

3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows?

There isn't.

[CX]

Originally posted by HuggyBear hat I was getting at by asking; Where do men get there laws?

They make 'em up.

[CX]

Originally posted by Calzaer

But ok, fine, we'll go with your base premise. Where did the universe come from? Where did natural law come from? MY god. Your god is false and you're going to come back in your next life as a slug if you keep trying to convince people that YOUR fake-o god should get credit for all of this stuff.

There, happy now?

:D BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I am. How come all the Wiccans I know are so cool?

[CX]

Originally posted by HuggyBear

...what about before the big bang



As time as we conceive it is predicated on the big bang itself your question is meaningless. What's North of the North pole?

[TheGreatInfidel]

Originally posted by joedad
Asking "where we came from" assumes we were once somewhere else. Where would that be?

NICE. Good observation!

[beastmaster]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
This fundamental Christian fact: The way to heaven is through the belief of Jesus and the his sacrafice for our sins.

...

Ask any Christian the way to heaven and he will reitterate what I said. Let's see:

(1) Some Xns believe that everybody (irrespective of Christ-belief) goes to heaven.
(2) Some Xns do not believe in any afterlife whatsoever.
(3) Some Xns believe, not in heaven, but in a reincarnation of believers on Earth in a renewed Eden, after the second coming.
(4) Some Xns believe in a multiplicity of heavens or hells or purgatories, and some believe that one can move from one place to another (e.g., serve a penance in purgatory for one's sins and then proceed to heaven).
(5) Some Xns believe that Jesus chooses prior to our birth who goes to heaven and who to hell, and nothing we say or do in this life can alter our destination.
(6) Some Xns believe that salvation is dependent on baptism.
(7) Some Xns believe that salvation is dependent on works, and all disagree on what works are required.
(8) Some Xns believe that persons who are ignorant of Christ can nevertheless enter heaven depending on their good works.
(9) Other Xns believe that persons who are ignorant of Christ can enter heaven, but only as a matter of Christ's mercy.
(10) Honest Xns will say they have absolutely no freaking idea who is going where (if they go anywhere at all).

[Division By Zero]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
Christians are the only religion left being persecuted. I will be attacked for my beliefs.
Your tagline says "Atlanta." I assume that means Atlanta, Georgia, in the United States. If that is true, then how, exactly, are you under attack for being a Christian? Christianity is the most socially acceptable religion in the country.

It is stated in the Bible that leading up to the second coming the three sources of persecution will come from:
I suppose you're referring to the US when you say these things.

The majority opinion
Right, because almost nobody in the country is a Christian, and just about everybody wants it outlawed.

The Church
Right, because Christian churches hate it when people get their nice clean pews dirty by sitting in them- or even worse, give money to the church.

The Government
Right, because it does evil, secular things like not forcing everyone else to worship as you do.

Speaking of majority opinion, though, isn't it interesting that God would make the world so that non-Christians increase in number before the end times? It's like he's trying to cram as many people into hell as he can in the last few seconds of the game.


God created us by His love. Why do you think almost every top 40 song on the radio has to do with love, the absence of it or the substitution for it?
You can't be saying that Britney Spears is proof that God exists.

Joking aside, I'm going to go with "D) Because every animal on Earth, including humans, has an instinctive drive to reproduce itself."


There are many answers to those questions which people can't answer. Unfortunately, faith is required. Faith is the whole foundation of logic for Christianity. The problem for the logic agruement and faith is that there is no logic for it.
Well, you can have faith that logic is flawed, but I prefer to use logic to see that faith is flawed.

I see no virtue in believing things that have no supporting evidence.

[Rider]

Originally posted by Mageth
I thought the Bible says that God blinds us infidels? Is he just another form of the Devil?

I want to see a reply to this one. I may not be as intellectual as the rest of you but I am trying by learning from you all. This whole thread is great reading material.


Go Mageth! :notworthy :notworthy

-Rider

[Rain Dog]

You can't be saying that Britney Spears is proof that God exists.

Joking aside, I'm going to go with "D) Because every animal on Earth, including humans, has an instinctive drive to reproduce itself."

Preferably, with Britney Spears.

[Aethernaut]

Methinks Huggy Bear unintentionally bit off a little more than he/she could chew when he/she initially posted here. I don't think he/she will be back.

[Division By Zero]

Originally posted by Schrodinger's Kitten
Methinks Huggy Bear unintentionally bit off a little more than he/she could chew when he/she initially posted here. I don't think he/she will be back.
Obviously, he was being persecuted for his beliefs. What's the world coming to when a poor Christian can't come to the Secular Web and post weak challenges to atheists without being ripped into by spiteful non-Christians brandishing rational arguments?

[Jamie_L]

Late-comer to the thread. Sorry. I've been MIA for a while.

Originally posted by HuggyBear
1) Where do we come from?


I'll defer to xorbie on this one. Where did the universe come from? I tend to think that's an improper and/or meaningless question. Existence does not appear to make sense. Adding a God into the equation does not change that, it just pushes the senselessness of it up a level. At some level, it appears something "just is". "The universe just is" seems just as valid as "God just is". In fact, to me it seems to make more sense, from the standpoint of parsimony.


2) What is the purpose of our lives?


Our lives have no purpose outside ourselves. What reason do we have to go on living? Because we like it. I prefer existing to the apparent alternative. To be honest, even before I became an atheist, I never cared much about a grand, objective "purpose" to my life. I just lived, because... well, it's what I do. Without living, there is no "I". Again, it seems senseless for me to ask what my "purpose" is.


3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows?


Quite a few people have attacked this from the angle of "there is not universal code." I'll take the other tack: People live together by sets of rules (morals, laws, etc.) because they make life better and easier. We prefer order to anarchy. It's in our nature as social creatures. We evolved with certain instincts about how to interact with each other, just like horses and wolves and seals and any other social animal.

That's my take, anyway.

Jamie

[brighid]

Christians are the only religion left being persecuted. I will be attacked for my beliefs.

You must live in a very sheltered world!! I would suggest getting out more. Presently, there are Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, and Buddhists being persecuted in this world. Many even dying, so please do not play the martyr card here. You aren't even persecuted in the United States, and being attacked for holding illogical beliefs does not make you "persecuted." Unless of course you consider it persecution that minority faiths and those who lack a belief in your God(s) fight to maintain a neutral government where no religion is given favoritism, or rather taking away the favoritism that is already in place in some areas in favor of Christians and against minority faith members.

If you think ridicule is persecution I suggest you visit some other parts of the world where people are imprisoned, tortured and executed for not having identical beliefs of the ruling theocracy. Try Iran, Afghanistan, or even Europe a few centuries ago .. how Ireland, or attempt to practice Tibetan Buddhism in China.

Brighid

[jfryejr]

Christians are the only religion left being persecuted. I will be attacked for my beliefs. I think he was implying that the "end times are upon us." Hence, the firm, "I will be prosecuted (er..persecuted) for my beliefs." Possibly, he's 'persectued' for some other reason and turned to xstianity as a means to rectify his 'persecution' with his self-image.

One of my family members keeps harping about the end of the world also. I love how the bible is reinterpreted each "this generation" to apply to that particular era. A one world government that wants peace, a supermassive computer in Virginia named "the beast", one currency...man, that Satan sure is evil. Imagine only one currency...and having to worship Him to use it. I guess the Xstians will have to grow their own food instead of buying it...and how will they pay for the gasoline the US is securing in their name?

Sounds like a scared kid or naive adult. Probably thought we'd ruminate on his questions and wonder how we could ever doubt the mighty lord jr's existence. Then we'd all become True Christians (tm). Doubt he's even well versed in the bible.

[Hans]

Originally posted by HuggyBear
...please answer these three questions....

1) Where do we come from?

The question is as inanswerable for the atheist as it is for the theist. Ultimately the atheist can not explain why there is this world we live in, nor can the theist explain why there is this world we live in which includes, in his beliefs, a God. The theist will often proclaim that there is a God who created this world but that only leaves one to wonder why it is that there is a God and it's creation.

2) What is the purpose of our lives?

Both the theist and the atheist ultimately lack any purpose, as in having a function to fulfill, other than endevoring for those things which are of value to them. The theist will often proclaim that the edicts passed to them by their God affords them a purpose. But lacking any ultimate purpose that their should be a God and its creation upon which he passes his edicts, they are as devoid of purpose as is the atheist.

3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows?

There is very little, if any, universal code of ethics. But the simularity we do see is easily expected in that we share a common psychology and physiology that in turn produces simular desires and dislikes. It should come as no surpise that a person of a different culture who has never been exposed to our own would dislike being raped or tortured just as much as we would. Thus the simularity that can be found within ethics throughout the world. For some reason that escapes me, the theist will often be incapable of recognizing this and ask questions like yours.

[Jobar]

Ah, a new one!

ARGUMENT FROM BRITNEY SPEARS

1. God created us by His love.
2. Why do you think almost every top 40 song on the radio has to do with love, the absence of it or the substitution for it?
3. Therefore, God exists.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HuggyBear, as interpreted by DivisionbyZero

[Autonemesis]

Originally posted by Jobar
Ah, a new one!

ARGUMENT FROM BRITNEY SPEARS


Shouldn't that be more like ARGUMENT FROM PEOPLE LIKE TO FUCK?

[jfryejr]

Originally posted by Autonemesis
Shouldn't that be more like ARGUMENT FROM PEOPLE LIKE TO FUCK? Or, more correctly, ARGUMENT FROM PEOPLE (I'd) LIKE TO FUCK

[Haleysred]

Originally posted by Mageth
I'll answer. Moral and ethical principles are not inherent in human nature; they are learned behaviors. If you've had a child, you would know that even the most basic moral and ethical behaviors must be learned by the child. Behavioral science has taught us that a child that grows up without guidance in such matters will be asocial (unwilling or unable to conform to normal standards of social behavior). There are several "wolf boy" examples of this in the literature.



I haven't yet read all of the other posts, so if I am repeating something that has already been said I apologize.

I just have to point out that you stated Scripture to a T. Solomon's Proverbs say that if you train a child in the way that he should go, he will never stray. The New Testament agrees by saying that we as humans are born with a "sin nature."

[Haleysred]

Originally posted by Autonemesis
Those are the first four Articles of Faith for Mormons. Looks like a typical post-Reformation representation of Christianity, with emphasis on works as well as faith (except for the rejection of original sin, of course). You do realize that not all Christian sects believe faith alone will save you? You may disagree with that tenet, but you can hardly disagree that those Christian sects that believe works and obedience to the laws of God are also needed, are not Christian, can you? Episcopalians, Catholics, Lutherans, and so on are surely Christian sects, aren't they? Their views are similar to Mormon views, but the details of the rites and ordinances they practice are different, but that's about all that separates them.

You left out the other 9 (or 10 depending on how far back you go) articles of the Mormon faith, which inlcude:

1 - God was once a man who lived on another planet
2 - We are co-eternal with God
4 - Truth is determined by feelings
5 - What a Prophet said can be revised depending on the circumstances
6 - Saving our dead ancestors shows we are the only Christian church
7 - Ex-Mormons or apostates had sin in their life or never had a testimony
8 - We will only read church approved materials
9 - We believe in the Book of Mormon

Please do not limit the entire truth or context. A fair argument would present all the evidence. Allbeit the four articles that you have selected resemble Christianity, the rest of the articles contradict what Christian Scripture holds to.

[jfryejr]

Originally posted by Haleysred
I just have to point out that you stated Scripture to a T. Solomon's Proverbs say that if you train a child in the way that he should go, he will never stray. The New Testament agrees by saying that we as humans are born with a "sin nature." The fact that the bible has some tidbits of good wisdom doesn't make it the originator of that wisdom. That's post hoc. There's also a great deal of injustice and cruelty in it.

As far as man's "sin nature", it only exists because the bible states it does. But the bible itself is what defines this "sin nature". So, according to a book that describes sin nature, man is born with sin nature. Sin is only described in the bible (or other religious book). This is slightly circular.

1 - God was once a man who lived on another planet
2 - We are co-eternal with God
4 - Truth is determined by feelings
5 - What a Prophet said can be revised depending on the circumstances
6 - Saving our dead ancestors shows we are the only Christian church
7 - Ex-Mormons or apostates had sin in their life or never had a testimony
8 - We will only read church approved materials
9 - We believe in the Book of Mormon

1. God was once a man who lived on our planet.
2. Jesus is co-eternal with god
4. Truth is determined by feelings, logic of man is foolishness.
5. What Jesus said (i.e. [this generation will not pass until these signs have been fulfilled]) can be revised depending on circumstance (read: lack of fulfillment).
6. The gospel was preached even to the dead (if you want Ch:Verse, let me know)
7. All but xstians damned. Ex-Xstians weren't True Christians (tm)
8. They should only read church approved materials. Bible is controlled by whom?
9 They believe in the NT.

Sounds fairly xstian to me. Merely a change in nomenclature.

[jfryejr]

Originally posted by Haleysred
I just have to point out that you stated Scripture to a T. Solomon's Proverbs say that if you train a child in the way that he should go, he will never stray. The New Testament agrees by saying that we as humans are born with a "sin nature." Also meant to "beg the question": astray by who's standards of behavior?

[Haleysred]

Originally posted by jfryejr
The fact that the bible has some tidbits of good wisdom doesn't make it the originator of that wisdom. That's post hoc. There's also a great deal of injustice and cruelty in it.

As far as man's "sin nature", it only exists because the bible states it does. But the bible itself is what defines this "sin nature". So, according to a book that describes sin nature, man is born with sin nature. Sin is only described in the bible (or other religious book). This is slightly circular.



1. God was once a man who lived on our planet.
2. Jesus is co-eternal with god
4. Truth is determined by feelings, logic of man is foolishness.
5. What Jesus said (i.e. [this generation will not pass until these signs have been fulfilled]) can be revised depending on circumstance (read: lack of fulfillment).
6. The gospel was preached even to the dead (if you want Ch:Verse, let me know)
7. All but xstians damned. Ex-Xstians weren't True Christians (tm)
8. They should only read church approved materials. Bible is controlled by whom?
9 They believe in the NT.

Sounds fairly xstian to me. Merely a change in nomenclature.

In all seriousness, where did you get your information from? The articles that I wrote are the actual beliefs written out in the articles of the Mormon belief. It looks to me, and please tell me if I am wrong, that you took my writing and translated it.

Mormons do have a statement of belief that the God of earth was once a man inhabiting another planet and because he did well on that planet, he was able to become the God of our planet. They also believe that if they are good Mormons they will one day become Gods of their own planet. I know that this belief in no way coincides with the Chrisitan belief of the God of the Universe.

And about the quoting the scriptures thing from before, I never claimed that you had to believe the Bible by stating it, I was merely pointing out my observation.

[jfryejr]

Originally posted by Haleysred
In all seriousness, where did you get your information from? The articles that I wrote are the actual beliefs written out in the articles of the Mormon belief. It looks to me, and please tell me if I am wrong, that you took my writing and translated it.As far as I know, what you listed are Mormon beliefs. I did translate it to point out the similarities between Xstianity and Mormonism. You said this in context of the listed beliefs:Allbeit the four articles that you have selected resemble Christianity, the rest of the articles contradict what Christian Scripture holds to.A contradiction means something can't be A and not A. I'll openly admit that Mormonism per se isn't considered xstianity by many xstians. But to say that their beliefs contradict xtianity or that the two can't coexist in one religion requires more evidence than a list that basically espouses what Xstianity adheres to. I'm definitely not an authority on mormonism and I've never read the Book of Mormon so you (or someone else) might be able to enlighten me, but as far as their list of required beliefs, I don't see any contradictions.

Mormons do have a statement of belief that the God of earth was once a man inhabiting another planet and because he did well on that planet, he was able to become the God of our planet. They also believe that if they are good Mormons they will one day become Gods of their own planet. I know that this belief in no way coincides with the Chrisitan belief of the God of the Universe.Jesus basically fits that pattern. The Mormons do, however, recognize an eternal, almighty God (I think, once again, read above!). I also challenge you to define Xstianity in a way that fits all of the followers of that religion.

*Also, as far as god of their own planet, couldn't Jesus' "heaven has many houses" saying be interpreted to mean, "those in heaven will have their own house." Jesus has one prepared, maybe others can, too. (This was a spur of the moment brain fart, which I might later regret writing...I'm off to bed)

And about the quoting the scriptures thing from before, I never claimed that you had to believe the Bible by stating it, I was merely pointing out my observation. Sorry, after a few months on this board I have a tendency to jump at biblical statements. My answers weren't meant to sound harsh. I was just offering a straightforward response. It can still be argued, very easily, that the proverb you quoted was simply common sense in script. Nothing very universal or godly about that saying in particular.

[Haleysred]

Originally posted by jfryejr
As far as I know, what you listed are Mormon beliefs. I did translate it to point out the similarities between Xstianity and Mormonism. You said this in context of the listed beliefs:A contradiction means something can't be A and not A. I'll openly admit that Mormonism per se isn't considered xstianity by many xstians. But to say that their beliefs contradict xtianity or that the two can't coexist in one religion requires more evidence than a list that basically espouses what Xstianity adheres to. I'm definitely not an authority on mormonism and I've never read the Book of Mormon so you (or someone else) might be able to enlighten me, but as far as their list of required beliefs, I don't see any contradictions.

I'll agree that Mormons do believe that they are truly Christians. However, their beliefs do not measure on a Biblical scale.

Jesus basically fits that pattern. The Mormons do, however, recognize an eternal, almighty God (I think, once again, read above!). I also challenge you to define Xstianity in a way that fits all of the followers of that religion.

Mormons do recognize an almighty God, I am not positive about how eternal they believe their God to be, being that their God once lived on another planet, did well, and became the God of the Earth. I am working on a definition for Xstianity (I am assuming you understand the difficulty in that task). Being God is not something that Christians believe they can attain, in fact, the Bible is very clear that a person can never become God. This is directly contradicted when Mormons state that they will one day become their own God.



*Also, as far as god of their own planet, couldn't Jesus' "heaven has many houses" saying be interpreted to mean, "those in heaven will have their own house." Jesus has one prepared, maybe others can, too. (This was a spur of the moment brain fart, which I might later regret writing...I'm off to bed)

The Scriptures state that Jesus Christ was sent from Heaven from the Father. He did not come to rule the planet, if He did, His time here would have been more military or politically geared. His time here was to fulfill prophecy and and lead people to God. Jesus never calims that a good "Christian" (in quotations because he would have never used this term) would one day have a planet of their own to rule (as Moromonsim states). While it is true that there are many "rooms: in heaven, the context of the word in no way connotates a planet. No other Scripture speaks of ruling ones own planet after life on earth. After life on this earth entails, but is not limited to, worshipping God and fellowship with Christ and the Angels.

Sorry, after a few months on this board I have a tendency to jump at biblical statements. My answers weren't meant to sound harsh. I was just offering a straightforward response. It can still be argued, very easily, that the proverb you quoted was simply common sense in script. Nothing very universal or godly about that saying in particular.

Don't sweat it. I know how it is. I just found a correlation between what Christians would call a Biblical truth, and what other people describe as an inherent. I know that the Bible is not full of hunky dory happy times. :) I've read it. :)

Thank you for your genuine responses, I really appreciate being able to have this discussion without it being heated. :)

And for clarification purposes, I have not yet read the Book of Mormon in its entirety, but I have studied their beliefs on an intellectual and personal level. Please enlighten me if you know of anything that I am not stating here. :)

[jfryejr]

Originally posted by Haleysred
Mormons do recognize an almighty God, I am not positive about how eternal they believe their God to be, being that their God once lived on another planet, did well, and became the God of the Earth.I concede this point. I was unaware of how polytheistic mormonism really is. I found some quotes from The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith that state his belief in multiple gods and that god was once a man as we are.

I am working on a definition for Xstianity (I am assuming you understand the difficulty in that task). Being God is not something that Christians believe they can attain, in fact, the Bible is very clear that a person can never become God. This is directly contradicted when Mormons state that they will one day become their own God.This, I'll also concede. Arguing from ignorance. Although, I could make arguments that jesus is considered a deity and he was a man. Paul wrote that we could become like jesus (I think, it's early and I'm at work, no access to bible works...might have a little more on this later, might not).

I would give up on the definition of xstianity. I guarantee that no matter what you write, it won't be all encompassing. Even if I can't find a flaw with it, there are those with more knowledge who definitely will. It's part of the reason there so many denominations out there. If defining it were easy, there would only be one.

The Scriptures state that Jesus Christ was sent from Heaven from the Father. He did not come to rule the planet, if He did, His time here would have been more military or politically geared. His time here was to fulfill prophecy and and lead people to God.Here you're a little wrong. The messiah as defined by the old testament does rule the planet. The point of the second coming is for jesus to come back and rule the planet. If he doesn't, OT scripture isn't fulfilled and he wasn't the messiah.

Jesus never calims that a good "Christian" (in quotations because he would have never used this term) would one day have a planet of their own to rule (as Moromonsim states). While it is true that there are many "rooms: in heaven, the context of the word in no way connotates a planet. No other Scripture speaks of ruling ones own planet after life on earth. After life on this earth entails, but is not limited to, worshipping God and fellowship with Christ and the Angels.Actually, life after death lacks any real description in the OT. Other than a few mentions of heaven in the NT, I don't think there is an actual description of it. The rooms = planets was a semi-awake rambling. Had I the energy last night to edit my post, I would have removed it.

Thank you for your genuine responses, I really appreciate being able to have this discussion without it being heated. :)No problem. I don't really have any religious beliefs, by definition, and no need to get heated about too much...and I learned a bit about mormonism, for what it's worth.
And for clarification purposes, I have not yet read the Book of Mormon in its entirety, but I have studied their beliefs on an intellectual and personal level. Please enlighten me if you know of anything that I am not stating here. :) I've never read anything past the list of beliefs. I was going to read the book of mormon out of curiosity, but damn it's dull. I've never had much of an interest in debating about mormonism. When I was xstian, I didn't consider it xstian. Now, it's just another polytheistic religion.

[eifion]

1) Where do we come from?
Our parents.

2) What is the purpose of our lives?
Subjectively, the purpose of my life is whatever purpose I choose to give it at any time.

Objectively, in about 60yrs I shall be dead. Within a generation or two anyone that remembers me and that I could have influenced will be dead. Even if I become a world famous cultural icon to the level of the Beatles or Mozart or Martin Luther King and mankind avoids destruction by its own hand or natural disaster then in about 500 million years the sun will swell and engulf the inner plannets and destroy all life in the solar system, so in the long run anything that anyone does has no purpose whatever.

3) Why, if there is no God, is there a universal code of ethics that almost every decent human on earth follows?
There is no universal code of ethics.

[wiploc]

\Originally posted by Haleysred
I'll agree that Mormons do believe that they are truly Christians. However, their beliefs do not measure on a Biblical scale.

If the bible contradicts the bible, how can you fault the book of Mormon for doing the same?



I am working on a definition for Xstianity (I am assuming you understand the difficulty in that task).

Already been done: A Christian is someone who points at another Christian and says, "You're not a real Christian." :)

crc

[Haleysred]

Interesting definition, I think that I am coming up with a more accurate one though :) As far the Bible contradicting itself, would you please give examples, so that I may have a shot at defending the statement. :) Thanks

[wiploc]

Originally posted by Haleysred
Interesting definition, I think that I am coming up with a more accurate one though :) As far the Bible contradicting itself, would you please give examples, so that I may have a shot at defending the statement. :) Thanks

Oh, sure, but you know them already. I put bible contradictinos in three categories: Contradictions of known historical facts, contradictions of known possibilities, and contradictions of itself.

I'll go with a contradiction of self example, since that is the hardest thing to shrug off: The bible says god cannot be seen; it also says he is seen. One of these claims has to be wrong.

crc

[eifion]

And yes the devil comes in many forms which will keep the infidel blind. The problem is this. I have found definitive answers with no loose ends that need to be tied up, while you have found answers which only lead to more questions. This is the fault of having logic and science run your life. [/B]

Then why don't you believe another, simpler theory which has no loose ends to tie up, namely, that the universe, everything in it including you and me and our memories was created by god 10 seconds ago?

You don't believe that because it's sounds absurd, but my absurdity isn't qualitatively different from any of the other divine creation myths being peddled as truth at the moment.

[jfryejr]

Originally posted by Haleysred
As far the Bible contradicting itself, would you please give examples, so that I may have a shot at defending the statement. :) Thanks I'm sure if you want to ask about biblical contradictions, if you post in the Biblical Criticism and History forum, you'll receive more than you bargained for.

You might also want to use the search engine and find some older threads and see if you can comment on those. I'll be more than happy to join in that thread as well!


Interesting definition, I think that I am coming up with a more accurate one thoughI don't know how familiar you are with logical fallacies. There's one called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Most xstians, when confronted with other xstian beliefs, will state, "well, no true christian believes/does X". Just want to warn you in advance, if you're going to claim you believe something, be prepared to back it up. If you're going to claim the bible states something absolutely, have Ch:Verse in hand. More importantly, if you're going to state that Xstians shouldn't believe something, be very prepared to argue as to why.

NOTE: I'm not trying to sound condescending in writing this. It reads as if you're going to try and define what a True Christian (tm) believes. Many have tried this before and no one has succeeded.

A list of some fallacies can be found here:
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading through them and realizing how often people use them in daily conversations.

[Autonemesis]

Originally posted by Haleysred
In all seriousness, where did you get your information from? The articles that I wrote are the actual beliefs written out in the articles of the Mormon belief.

Actually, much of what you mentioned is not in the Mormon Articles of Faith (a specific document stating their beliefs, written by Joseph Smith and published by the church). Here it is in its entirety:


We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.


Mormons do have a statement of belief that the God of earth was once a man inhabiting another planet and because he did well on that planet, he was able to become the God of our planet.

That's not in the articles of faith that I was referring to. But the discrepancy you noted is reconciled with the Bible by the 8th Article of Faith. Mormons believe the Bible has been corrupted over the centuries through multiple translations and revisions, but that it is still the word of god insofar as it is translated correctly.

They also believe that if they are good Mormons they will one day become Gods of their own planet. I know that this belief in no way coincides with the Chrisitan belief of the God of the Universe.

It does through the 8th article of faith. It's not unlike creationists measuring the worth of science and cosmology by reference to the Bible. The Mormons believe the BoM is a more recent and unsullied account of the gospel, so it takes precedence over the Bible when it comes to resolving ambiguities.

[Haleysred]

I am first going to say that my sister, Haley, loved being a part of this discussion group, and even though she was only a part of it for a short time, she spoke often about the discussions that were going on here. Please excuse me, this is hard to write.

The other night, a week after her 21st Birthday, she was killed by a Jeffrey Dommer headcase, who still doesn't believe that he did anything wrong. This man decided that it was alright for him to kill people, because he wanted to, so he chose my sister as a victim on a whim. His disbelief in morality took the end of my sister's life in ways that cannot even be discussed.

I found a few notes on her desk that I am assuming belong to this site, so I wanted you to hear what she was planning on saying, I am sure that they were still being processed in her mind, and are therefor unfinished thoughts, but here is some of what she had to say.

A true believer in Christ - (there were a few pages of scribbles, all crossed out, until she came up with this) I suppose I don't have the capacity to know or understand this. Ultimately it is between each person and God Himself. Being that I don't have the power to judge a person's heart, I will leave that in the hands of the Almighty. After all it is all up to Him anyways.

Mormonism vs Christianity
1) Those who choose not to follow our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ will receive a reward according to what they have done in this life, but they will not enjoy the glory of living in the presence of God

http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1295-1,00.html

Christ is very clear that the only way to Heaven is thorugh Him. He never mentions another place for the so-called "good-people" to go. Besides, it is a relative good that their God seeks? Jeffrey Dommer believes himself to be good. He is the ultimate relativist, to his dismay. Ho do I explain that? According to him, he has done only what is good for him, therefor, he can look forward to a good afterlife? "According to what they have done" does that mean in their own opinion, or is that left up for God to decide as well? Hmmmm. . . look into this more.

All I know is that there are too many secrets in Mormonism, they aren't allowed to question their beliefs, meaning they aren't allowed to seek out the truth. I am glad that I serve a God who allows me to ask the questions, so that my faith may be strengthened through my questioning. Since He is truth, the fallacies will be apparent, and the Truth comes out. The truth always comes out, eventually.



Bible Contradictions?

- Seeing the dace of God-
Moses had to turn away when God passsed by, so he wouldn't see his face.
Jacob wrestled with God in human form.
Christ was God and many people saw His face
look up the other examples

Conc: Man can't see the holiness of God in all his glory. The brightness of the light would blind man. God takes on other forms so that he may be present with his creation (ie JC)

Lee Strobel - next book to read:
Evidence that Demands a Verdict - Rick Warren



I don't know if this helps any of the discussions that were being posted before, but that is the last of her input. I know that she would have wanted her voice heard. Her ultimate purpose in life was to make sure that as many people that she could come into contact with the greatness of our God. Her life was dedicated to other people. She did not join this site to cause frustration and idle debates. Her goal was to find truth in everything.



It's a little less than ironic that the very relativism she argued against, was the ideal that took her life. I know of many people right now who would argue that this man's perfect relativism deserves to be rethought.

Praise God that she is with Him now. There is no doubt that her eternal life will be far better than the life she lived here, eternity spent in Heaven. What a blessing.

For I know that in all things God does for the glory of those who love him. Romans 8:28

Rejoice in the Lord always, again I say rejoice. Philippians 4:4

I am sure you have guessed it by now, Haleysred will not be posting anymore to this site. I hope you all find the truth you seek.

In memory of Haley September 3, 1982 - Septmber 12, 2003.

[Calzaer]

I don't believe you.

[Walross]

Forgive my skepticism, Haleysred, especially in light of the horrible things you've endured, but...it would help us in this discussion if you told us what your sister's IIDB username was. Then we could go back, read her posts, and put her comments in perspective. Thanks,

Ross

[Kruger]

i guess god is present as a human being, sufing the internet, playing ice hockey, a politician and even a atheist in disguise. Taking notes and doing interesting experiment to see man reaction??:D :notworthy

[Asha'man]

Originally posted by Walross
Forgive my skepticism, Haleysred, especially in light of the horrible things you've endured, but...it would help us in this discussion if you told us what your sister's IIDB username was.

Walross, it looks pretty clear to me that his sister's username was Haleysred, and he was posting using her account, probably from her machine.

To the family and friends of Haleysred, I offer my condolences.

[Walross]

Ah, of course. Forgive my moment of obtuseness.

[Jobar]

I'm not saying this 'murder' is an utter impossibility, but I think if it were me in the position claimed by Haleyred's sibling, I would call my sister by name, and likewise her murderer. I am not aware of any murder of this sort taking place in S. Cal.- any posters who *have* heard of such a thing please post on this thread ASAP, repeat ASAP. Jobar, moderator.

[Keith Russell]

"The other night, a week after her 21st Birthday, she was killed by a Jeffrey Dommer headcase, who still doesn't believe that he did anything wrong. This man decided that it was alright for him to kill people, because he wanted to, so he chose my sister as a victim on a whim. His disbelief in morality took the end of my sister's life in ways that cannot even be discussed."

This person sounds like someone with severe mental problems, not someone who thought out a way to 'kid' himself into 'disbelieving' morality, let alone 'choosing' to kill 'because he wanted to'.

If I'm right, mental illness in no way excuses what he did, nor does it in any way lessen the horrible nature of his crime. Mentally ill or not, murderers should be jailed for the remainder of their lives, without possibility of parole. (I do not support capital punishment.)

If...

But, (again, if I'm right) it would mean that your judgment of his conscious rejection of morality is incorrect.

If...

K

[Viti]

I am highly skeptical of this alleged murder. I don't see how it is possible for a police murder investigation involving a young girl, a "Jeffrey Dommer (sic) type" (ie: cannibalistic serial killer), and a full confession including psychological evaluation of motive, could be completed and communicated to the family in one day let alone how it is possible it didn't hit the news like a ton of bricks.

I also find it very hard to believe both Hayley and her brother would use the same misspelling of Dahmer, or that she just happened to be writing about serial killers then popped out sometime after 5:40 pm Friday night and was killed by one.

If it is serious, I apologize and the family has my deepest condolences.

If it is a lie, then shame on you for manipulating people's emotions. That is cruel and sick and not at all a positive reflection on Christianity.

[Wyz_sub10]

I'd like to suggest that we refrain from speculating on this story until it can be confirmed either way, Anything said here, stays here as a record for a long time to come, so those with opinions on either side may do well to wait and see.

This type of issue is, sadly, not uncommon on boards such as this and we have decided to look further into this story.

Wyz_sub10,
IIBD Administrator

[dangin]

Originally posted by Wyz_sub10
Anything said here, stays here as a record for a long time to come,


I'd like to go on the record for a long time to come saying, I don't know anything about a death, but the OP is one of the worst attempts to rationalize the xian god I've seen. Actually it's a tie, because we've all seen this tripe over and over again.

And if anyone wants to talk about "Natural Law", which I call the "social contract" we can still do so, or we can start a new thread. We were social, with a social "order" for millenia before we were our current species. All social (pack, family group, enclave) organisms follow rules that make their group work. They evolve (don't we all) and they change, and their social order may evolve to, but it remains. Our social order has evolved into the core group of "rules" that the OP was talking about (without knowing it), which are known (by me at least) as the "do know harm" rules. Don't murder, steal, assault, home invade. From these came are modern laws.

Ironically, the social contract serves to disprove the god of the ten commandments, and I think it is quite funny when the theists think these rules came from on high, when they were here before our species was even smart enough to think up a god.

[HuggyBear]

My prayers are with your sister. I hope it gives you comfort that she was a Christ loving woman.

-Ryan Brantley

[HuggyBear]

Another note, for all you Hollywood types that have been brainwashed by your TV and the movies.

Love is not sex.

I could go on about love, but I'd rather talk about the latter of the prior sentence.

Adultry is one of many sins. Look at what happens in our world when you preform to much of it. Girls are forced to rais