Sweet Dreams

[streamline]

I frequently hear a theist say his or her god "spoke to them", or "told them" something. Color me naive, but this puzzles me -- does one hear a voice coming from some direction external to his or her person? Say, much like when I'm sitting on the living room couch, and my girlfriend curses me out from the kitchen? And, if so, how does one ascertain for certain it's a god speaking, and not just an adept ventriloquest, or someone hiding behind the bushes? Or an heretofore unknown alien from the far flung reaches of space who has mastered our language? I mean, what does a god look like? How does it speak? Does it have a tongue, teeth and mouth? And if I have this all wrong, and this voice seems to originate within one's own head...well, now I am even more confused...just how's that, exactly? How does one distinguish between that ever-present one-person monologue that is always running in his or her head -- you know, the inner voice that just told you to stop frequenting this forum and get a job -- and a bonafide true-blue god? Can one ever really be sure it's a god speaking, and not just one's own mind run amuck? Certainly, if one acknowledges the presence of other mentally-disturbed and unwell individuals, one must hold out the option it could happen to him or herself, as well. Come to think of it, I am quite certain a fair share of those mentally-disturbed types that are currently locked-up for doing bad things make just such a claim, that a god did indeed tell them to do such and such that got him or her in trouble with the authorities. So what of it? How does one distinguish between the chap who claims to have been spoken to by god in a dream, and his neighbor who says, no, he merely dreamed that a god spoke to him? Is this neighbor merely jealous because god didn't say something to him, too? And how come no god has ever spoken to me? What gives??

:confused:

[ScumDog]

Selective interpretation, I suppose. If I believed in something, then things can be interpreted in a way to correlate with my beliefs. It is also selective because it's easy to ignore the things that are not interpreted as such, as the ones that can be interpreted as such are more likely to be remembered. We are very stubborn, of course.

EDIT: And I forgot self-delusion as a possibility.

[theophilus]

Originally posted by streamline
I frequently hear a theist say his or her god "spoke to them", or "told them" something. Color me naive, but this puzzles me -- does one hear a voice coming from some direction external to his or her person? Say, much like when I'm sitting on the living room couch, and my girlfriend curses me out from the kitchen? And, if so, how does one ascertain for certain it's a god speaking, and not just an adept ventriloquest, or someone hiding behind the bushes? Or an heretofore unknown alien from the far flung reaches of space who has mastered our language? I mean, what does a god look like? How does it speak? Does it have a tongue, teeth and mouth? And if I have this all wrong, and this voice seems to originate within one's own head...well, now I am even more confused...just how's that, exactly? How does one distinguish between that ever-present one-person monologue that is always running in his or her head -- you know, the inner voice that just told you to stop frequenting this forum and get a job -- and a bonafide true-blue god? Can one ever really be sure it's a god speaking, and not just one's own mind run amuck? Certainly, if one acknowledges the presence of other mentally-disturbed and unwell individuals, one must hold out the option it could happen to him or herself, as well. Come to think of it, I am quite certain a fair share of those mentally-disturbed types that are currently locked-up for doing bad things make just such a claim, that a god did indeed tell them to do such and such that got him or her in trouble with the authorities. So what of it? How does one distinguish between the chap who claims to have been spoken to by god in a dream, and his neighbor who says, no, he merely dreamed that a god spoke to him? Is this neighbor merely jealous because god didn't say something to him, too? And how come no god has ever spoken to me? What gives??

:confused:

I'm always amused when people purport to have had an encounter with a "theist" and then come here to ask atheists what he could have meant.
Have you ever thought of asking the person what he meant?

This is really just a clever way to poke fun at those stupid "theists" who get in the way.

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by theophilus
I'm always amused when people purport to have had an encounter with a "theist" and then come here to ask atheists what he could have meant.
Have you ever thought of asking the person what he meant?


The question was addressed to theists and atheists on this board alike.


This is really just a clever way to poke fun at those stupid "theists" who get in the way.


Your interpretation.

[streamline]

Originally posted by theophilus
I'm always amused when people purport to have had an encounter with a "theist" and then come here to ask atheists what he could have meant.
Have you ever thought of asking the person what he meant?

This is really just a clever way to poke fun at those stupid "theists" who get in the way.

I have been reading through your flurry of posts lately, and it seems you get in the way all the time.

I take it you are a theist, so then I'll ask you -- has your god ever spoken directly to you? and how'd that go?

[Family Man]

Streamline -- you need to talk to luvluv. He claims to hear voices.

[Deacon Doubtmonger]

Originally posted by streamline
And if I have this all wrong, and this voice seems to originate within one's own head...well, now I am even more confused...just how's that, exactly? How does one distinguish between that ever-present one-person monologue that is always running in his or her head -- you know, the inner voice that just told you to stop frequenting this forum and get a job -- and a bonafide true-blue god? Can one ever really be sure it's a god speaking, and not just one's own mind run amuck?
Well, maybe schizophrenia is really polytheism -- at least if you believe the latest creepy Lutheran church sign in my area: "ONE OF THE VOICES IN YOUR HEAD IS GOD." Maybe schizophrenia is really a holy war, with each voice trying to establish itself as the One True God(TM). :p

Come to think of it, I am quite certain a fair share of those mentally-disturbed types that are currently locked-up for doing bad things make just such a claim, that a god did indeed tell them to do such and such that got him or her in trouble with the authorities.

And by ScumDog
Selective interpretation, I suppose. If I believed in something, then things can be interpreted in a way to correlate with my beliefs.
The immortal George Carlin raised this possibility in one of the gems from "Free-Floating Hostility":

And speaking of delusional people: What about a guy who hears a voice in his head telling him to go kill his entire family, so he does it? Is this the only thing a voice in the head ever tells these people to do, is to kill others? Doesn't a voice in the head ever say, "Go take a shit on the salad bar at Wendy's?"

Deacon Doubtmonger

http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/obscene/eck31.gif religion

[sophie]

There seems to be a number of cases to consider. I am fully aware that most of the learned men and women around here believe in cause and effect. In terms of mental causation most would argue it is impossible to have a random thought which may be construed as spontaneous in nature and having no basis whatsoever in one's memories.


I would imagine most theists would try to ascertain the cause of the thought especially if they are having double thoughts. If the thought has no prior recognition to the person's experience, then the person has the right to assume the thought was transmitted from without.

I hope this post is clear enough for the honoured members at II. I am asking after being accused of not being adequately clear, so I can make adjustments.

:cool:

[Doctor X]

In terms of mental causation most would argue it is impossible to have a random thought which may be construed as spontaneous in nature and having no basis whatsoever in one's memories.

People do have thoughts and dreams not based on memories.

If the thought has no prior recognition to the person's experience, then the person has the right to assume the thought was transmitted from without.

Not at all, given the above.

--J.D.

[streamline]

Originally posted by sophie
If the thought has no prior recognition to the person's experience, then the person has the right to assume the thought was transmitted from without.


Do they really, though? I am not so sure. The spectre that a thought was somehow "transmitted from without" would certainly seem to raise far more questions than it purports to answer ... whereas the notion that the thought's origins never need be looked for anywhere outside the head that holds it appears to me to be the better explanation. Again, how is it that we pass judgement on the thoughts of others -- those deemed to be mentally unwell and/or hearing (false) voices -- all the time, and at the same time, you can assert such a "right"? The criterion that the "thought has no prior recognition to the person's experience" wouldn't seem to be enough, for surely plenty of those locked up for killing their families per the instructions of a voice from without would insist that they, too, passed your test (and I am assuming that you would deny the external validity of these felons' murderous other voices).

I suppose that if I devoutly believed in an omni-god that created and sustains this world, and from which all morality flows, and it suddenly instructed me to stab my wife and kids, I, too, would believe it to be well within character of the god to issue such a decree. Take a look around -- every day thousands of living creatures perish in needlessly painful and suffering-laden ways. What more evidence does one need to assume that the entity behind it all is capable of (and active in promoting) the most low-down nasty and malicious cruelty imaginable?

[Wayne Delia]

How can a person tell the difference between allegedly receiving a direct communication from God in a dream, as opposed to simply dreaming that God is communicating with him?

WMD

[streamline]

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
How can a person tell the difference between allegedly receiving a direct communication from God in a dream, as opposed to simply dreaming that God is communicating with him?

WMD

Yep, that would be the same question I asked in my OP. Still waiting for a cogent answer from someone...

[Wayne Delia]

Originally posted by streamline
Yep, that would be the same question I asked in my OP. Still waiting for a cogent answer from someone... Dang - sure enough, you did cover that, and I missed it. A human asserting X based on dreaming of X casts considerable doubt on the validity, because after all, it's a dream. (Last night I dreamed of going to a high school reunion, and Tom Cruise showed up complaining about the high balances on my credit card, even though I'm only using 20% of the available balance and making payments on time - the rest of the dream was pretty weird.) But due to sensitivities to a person's religious beliefs, the assertion of God communicates X through a dream gets some undeserved leeway, because (according to the claimant) who are we to question God's choice of method of communication? I think it's quite easily refuted by the response of "Last night, God told ME in a dream that you're an asshole." Could be that the skeptic is lying, but that could also be a characteristic of the theist asserting God's message. Could be that the skeptic is telling the truth but has misconstrued a mere dream for an actual message; again, the same criticism can be applied to the theist's assertion. While it is most likely probable that they are both wrong, there is the off-chance that the skeptic's message from God could turn out to be correct!

Do many Christians use that method of assertion to persuade people that God is actually talking to them? Only about once every five minutes on an arbitrary Christian Televangelism show on Trinity Broadcast Network, for example.

WMD

[streamline]

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
Do many Christians use that method of assertion to persuade people that God is actually talking to them? Only about once every five minutes on an arbitrary Christian Televangelism show on Trinity Broadcast Network, for example.

WMD

I sometimes watch TBN just for laughs (until it starts to sink -- again -- that they are serious, and then I get scared). That woman with pink hair is as close to a real life walking lunatic asylum escapee as one is going to see on television.

[Peter Kirby]

The scariest dream I've ever had: I was dreaming that I was lying in my bed and sleeping and that I was struggling and struggling and couldn't wake up. The scariest thing is that it was true--I knew I was dreaming. And I thought that I would never wake up. After what seemed like half a minute, I woke up.

The night after that, I had a dream that demons were making my mattress move up and down in mid-air, while I slept, because I wasn't a believer. Not nearly as scary, but still scary.

Of course these are only dreams.

My best dreams are "lucid dreams" in which I have total control over what I see in my dream. For example, I think "spaceship spaceship spaceship" and a spaceship zips through the dream world. But I've only had such "lucid dreams" on two occasions.

Unfortunately, I forget most of my dreams.

best,
Peter Kirby

[orpheus last chant]

Once, when I was 6, me and my best firend went to play. she was older than me, and liked to make fun at the gullible little girl i was. so she hid herself and said:

- hey julia!

I turned around, looked everywhere. so I asked her where she was.

- I'm up in the clouds.

Now that was something. I trusted her, but this seemed outrageous. I looked up, and saw clouds but nothing on them.

- I don't see you, are you really up there?

- Yes, yes. You see, you can't see me because I am well hid on top of a big cloud.

- No way. If you are up there how come I can hear you so well? And how come I don't hear the sound coming from above?
And how did you get there so fast?
- Well, that's because the aliens that came and took me up in a second gave me a device so you can hear me as though I am right next to you.

There it was, a possible explanation. I had nothing more to object yet I jus could not believe it, and went looking on the direction of the sound. And I found her right behind a car.

Some people give in to outrageous explanations because they don't realise that reality is not what they want it to be. They would rather believe that light in the sky is not an airplane but an alien ship.
Some poeple want so bad to justify what is very dear to them (the notion of god) that they resort to talking gods, apparitions and mass hallu...i mean miracles, stigmata etc.

If the meme is powerfull enough it can insert itself inside your preservation instincts and even destroy them. To defend it is more important then defending your life. To sustain it is more important then keeping skepticism to outrageus claims. so even if the person sees a most improbable event, if this event can be used by the meme for it's purpose, it will use any means to integrate it.

[Zucco]

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
The scariest dream I've ever had: I was dreaming that I was lying in my bed and sleeping and that I was struggling and struggling and couldn't wake up. The scariest thing is that it was true--I knew I was dreaming. And I thought that I would never wake up. After what seemed like half a minute, I woke up.

Sounds like a mild form of sleep paralysis. I recently saw an interesting TV show that purported sleep paralysis could be the real reason behind all those "alien abductions" several years ago. Throughout history people have claimed to have bizarre encounters in their sleep, from demons in the middle ages to aliens more recently (interesting how the entity changes as the culture changes).

Sleep paralyis is so realistic that many victims insist they were not dreaming, and it could be the cause of most if not all of those nocturnal encounters. Still sounds scary as hell, though.

[eifion]

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
The scariest dream I've ever had: I was dreaming that I was lying in my bed and sleeping and that I was struggling and struggling and couldn't wake up. The scariest thing is that it was true--I knew I was dreaming. And I thought that I would never wake up. After what seemed like half a minute, I woke up.


Yup sounds like sleep paralysis to me. Your body shuts down while you sleep as a safety device to stop you acting out your dreams. Sometimes your mind wakes up and you're concious but your body isn't woken up yet. The scary thing is that you think your strugling or making a noise or moving your arm to wake yourself up but of course it's only your 'dream body' that's moving and struggling, your real body is fast asleep.

Happens to me a lot, and used to freak me out but I've learnt that the best thing to do is relax, let go and you wake up properly almost imediately.

[sophie]

Doctor X : People do have thoughts and dreams not based on memories.This wild claim does need a little bit of evidence, don't you think?

Think for a bit about what exists in the mind. If there are memories, and they are the service providers, and there are some other things you claim exists which allows dreams and thoughts not based on memories.


What are these things? Is it your imagination?

[sophie]

streamline : What more evidence does one need to assume that the entity behind it all is capable of (and active in promoting) the most low-down nasty and malicious cruelty imaginable?Yeh, sure. How about a little bit of human sharing?

[Barcode]

Hullo Streamline :)

if so, how does one ascertain for certain it's a god speaking, and not just an adept ventriloquest, or someone hiding behind the bushes?

Christian logic: If the voice tells you to do something good, or it reinforces positive ideas it must be God. If the voice tells you something you dislike it's probably just your nagging significant other or other evil forces at work.

Just kidding. I too have wondered this. If I heard a voice of any kind I would check myself into the nearest mental hospital.

The best explanation I can currently find is that believers interpret their conscience to be God .... in other words, what you and I consider to be our own thoughts becomes God in the religious mindset.

Otherwise I haven't a clue ... if somebody told me they literally heard a voice; I would assume they were mentally ill.

How does it speak?

Through burning bushes according to The Bible. You could try setting fire to a few houseplants and see if you hear a booming voice to command you to go and do things.

Sorry, inability to be serious today ...

well, now I am even more confused...just how's that, exactly?

A mystery to us who don't believe I expect. My girlfriend says she'd be scared if she heard a voice -- so I've yet to ascertain precisely *how* she thinks God communicates with her in prayer.

I guess it's your own inner thoughts.

And how come no god has ever spoken to me? What gives??

Apparently God speaks to us all if we open up our hearts blah blah. The only voice I've ever heard in my head is my own. It would take an awful lot of conditioning from childhood for me to seriously think the creator of the Universe actually takes an interest in speaking to me.

[beastmaster]

Originally posted by sophie
I would imagine most theists would try to ascertain the cause of the thought especially if they are having double thoughts. If the thought has no prior recognition to the person's experience, then the person has the right to assume the thought was transmitted from without. Yes, this is what I suspect that most Xns mean when they claim that God "speaks" to them. It isn't really a voice, just an inexplicable, positive thought or desire. It's more like the "hand" of god than the "voice" of god.

[streamline]

Originally posted by sophie
Yeh, sure. How about a little bit of human sharing?

Huh? :confused:

Do you mean to say that humans ought to share with their god(s) some of the blame for the conditions around here? If the god is supposed to be the omni-everything deity found in Christianity, then, no, I don't see how we are to blame at all for the existence of evil. An all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, all-one-can-imagine-and-then-some super-duper-god is solely responsible for EVERYTHING that is, including every instance of needless and horrific suffering of living creatures. But, hey, that is another thread for another time.

[Jamie_L]

I think most people who talk of God "speaking to them" do not mean they were literally "spoken to" in a worded message, internal or external, as if obviously from another being.

Usually, this is they way they describe and interpret conclusions they come to based on introspection and meditation.

For instance, a person thinks long and hard about a solution to a serious problem. They ask God for guidance. Eventually, they come to a conclusion about how to deal with the problem. They attribute some or all of that conclusion to God's influence. They then describe the process of coming to that conclusion as "God spoke to me."

Jamie

[streamline]

Originally posted by Barcode
It would take an awful lot of conditioning from childhood for me to seriously think the creator of the Universe actually takes an interest in speaking to me.

That's just it ... unless someone is a candidate for psychological counseling or a resident of mental health facilities, in which case it's understandable (though no less ficticious), the notion that the supposed Creator and Sustainer of All That Is (aka, God) is speaking directly to someone with a message for dissemination to other people is the height of arrogance (or, again, lunacy, depending on one's mental health). The only way one ever learns what a god says or thinks is through other people. To put a spin on the question already asked in this thread, how does one tell the difference between a person repeating what a god told him or her, and a person who is lying or delusional when claiming god is the source for what he/she is saying?

[streamline]

Originally posted by Jamie_L
I think most people who talk of God "speaking to them" do not mean they were literally "spoken to" in a worded message, internal or external, as if obviously from another being.

Usually, this is they way they describe and interpret conclusions they come to based on introspection and meditation.

For instance, a person thinks long and hard about a solution to a serious problem. They ask God for guidance. Eventually, they come to a conclusion about how to deal with the problem. They attribute some or all of that conclusion to God's influence. They then describe the process of coming to that conclusion as "God spoke to me."

Jamie


How does one tell the difference between someone for whom God provided guidance in his or her decision making, and one who simply imagined that God provided guidance in his or her decision making? Especially in the case where both parties make the same decision?

And if not in the form of a literally spoken word, just how do I ascertain that it is a god that is influencing my thinking? In distinction to, say, some subconcious fear from childhood, or a deep-seated sexual craving/fetish, or hunger/thirst, or....

[Jamie_L]

Steamline,

I wasn't saying that this was a valid assumption on the part of these people.

I was just making the point that some (and I'd say most or almost all) of the people who say these kinds of things aren't claiming to literally hear voices. People are comparing them to schizophrenics, and I was just pointing out that, in most cases, it's not a valid comparison.

So, I agree with everything you are saying. I wasn't defending the practice, just clarifying the definition of it.

Jamie

[Nowhere357]

Barcode
If I heard a voice of any kind I would check myself into the nearest mental hospital.
Hearing voices is normal. We have our "inner dialog" voice, and I also can distinguish a critical voice and an affirmative voice. I relate the last two to the cliche of the angel and the devil that sit on my shoulders and whisper thoughts of conscience into my ears. While that may be due to an overactive imagination, it may also be that the cliche exists because people really do experience those voices. (When I pay close attention, I can distinguish that they seem to originate from slightly different positions in my brain.)

I also have strong lucid dreaming and dream recall skills, and many times I've experienced my sleep-paralyzed body as I force myself awake from a dream. I've also experienced awareness of dreaming even as I was aware of conversations going on nearby irl. Dream control is exciting, fun and useful, well worth the effort.

If someone does not have a skeptical outlook on mental experiences, I can see how our inner voices and our dream recall could fool one into thinking they heard or experienced something supernatural. I also suspect that negative experiences such as "kill your family" get more press - but many people for example have positive experiences such as "feed the poor", and they simply don't get the headlines. It would be interesting to see some studies on this.

That's right, I hear voices... and yet I'm sane, I tell you. What? :)