Discussing Pedophilia

[viscousmemories]

This is why I believe it’s important to have calm, reasonable, non-accusatory discussions about pedophilia:

Because while there are surely some violent sexual predators out there raping and murdering children, I believe there are many, many more pedophiles or other similar sexual deviants who believe that their sexual interest is perfectly harmless, that children are quite able to give willing and informed consent, and that as long as they don’t fit that monstrous stereotype the torch-bearing mob is looking for, there is nothing wrong with them.

Every time I’ve seen a thread start up here on the subject of pedophilia, I’ve noticed a tendency for most of the participants (protagonists and antagonists alike) to make broad claims about the effect of adult/child sexual interaction while usually failing to provide any proof to support their point of view. Often the only argument people put forth is fallacious in one way or another, such as anecdotal (it happened to me or someone I know and I’m fine, so therefore it must not be harmful), an appeal to popularity (everyone believes it’s harmful, therefore it is), or an appeal to common sense (of course it’s harmful, duh!).

Nevertheless, while I recognize the fact that anecdotal evidence is not sufficient proof of anything, I think it can serve some other very useful purposes. For example, it can serve as an impetus for discussion. So with that in mind, here’s my story:

A little background: I am the youngest of 10 children. My father was physically and sexually abusive and, to the best of my knowledge, molested and/or raped many of my siblings on an ongoing basis for about 15 years. My mother took us away from him when I was about 7 years old, and sought refuge in a “Charismatic Christian Community” (essentially a fundamentalist cult). I have very few memories of living with my father, and no memories at all of these heinous occurrences. I know only what I’ve heard from my siblings, and as you might imagine they don’t really talk much about it.

His name was Ralph. He was a lawyer from New York, and it seems safe to say that he was a homosexual pedophile. However, I would not characterize him as a vicious, drooling, child-raping monster, lurking in the dark waiting for his next victim. I would instead describe him as developmentally disabled, lonely, timid, pathetic, and only by necessity, devious. Though he fits the technical description of a sexual predator, I suspect he thought of himself as a normal homosexual man who happened to be sexually interested in pre- or barely pubescent boys, and that by coaxing me into a sexual relationship with him, he was ‘seducing’ me.

At 12 I was just starting to rebel against my mother hardcore. I started drinking and smoking pot, skipping school, hanging out in the arcade all day, etc. One of the many times I ran away from home (an activity which rarely even lasted overnight), I was sitting on a stone bench in the center of the college campus at around 2:00 a.m. It was summer, so I was probably wearing my traditional ‘stoner’ outfit: blue jeans and tennis shoes, “Diary of a Madman” shirt, and either my blue jean or leather motorcycle jacket. I was sitting there because I had nowhere else to go. Ralph plopped down on the bench next to me, smiled, and started talking.

I wish I could tell you I remember our whole conversation. I don’t. I don’t even remember the vast majority of it, actually. I had very limited interest in adults. The only regular interaction I had with adults was with my Mom, schoolteachers, and people in the Christian cult my family was part of, none of whom interested me. In fact I saw all adults as merely authority figures, forcing me to do things I hated like attending school and going to prayer meetings.

Also, because I was essentially fatherless and somewhat socially inept around my age group, I never really learned the kinds of things normal boys learned. At least, that was the impression I got when Ralph started talking. He told me he was a Boy Scout troupe leader, and regaled me with stories of “circle-jerks” with the boys, and other exciting and interesting things I knew nothing about. I hadn’t even learned about masturbation yet, and moreover I was from a strict fundamentalist Christian family so as far as I knew anything that had to do with sex was a sin.

Eventually we started talking about pornography, which was interesting to me but I hadn’t really seen much of it. That’s when he told me he was just in town on business, but he had a hotel room down the street and could take me up there to see some pornography if I was interested. Of course I was, so up we went. Once we got up to his room I couldn’t believe all the porn he had. A bunch of magazines, books, even porn on the TV! Truly a young boy’s paradise.

I was sitting on the edge of the bed flipping through a magazine, glancing at the porn on the TV, when he knelt on the floor between my legs, unzipped my pants and proceeded to fellate me until I reached orgasm. It’s hard to remember exactly how I felt or what went through my head, but I remember being extremely uncomfortable. I’m pretty sure the biggest source of discomfort for me was the fact that homosexuality was supposed to be sick and wrong (in both the view of my Christian family and by the mainstream) yet the physical sensation was very good.

He urged me to do the same to him, but I really didn’t want to. After I refused a few times and insisted I really should be going, he gave me $4 so I could get breakfast in the morning. Then, as I was on my way out, he convinced me that I should go home. He then drove me home, walked me to the front door, introduced himself to my Mother, and delivered me to her. In retrospect that doesn’t seem very rational.

I had given him my phone number, so he called a couple of times over the coming days. We would chat about various things, but most of all about me going to New York to live with him. He promised to give me absolute freedom. No school. No chores. No prayer meetings. I was enthralled. I asked him if this girl I knew casually could go with me, and he said she could. I knew he’d expect me to mess around with him in exchange for letting me stay there, so I figured bringing a girl along would ensure that nobody would think I was gay.

One day my Mom got on the phone when he called and told him he’d better never call again or she’d call the police. Naturally, I thought she was an evil bitch trying to ruin my life and keep me from having the free and easy lifestyle Ralph offered. Of course he did call again, and she did call the police. They wanted me to participate in a sting operation to catch the guy, but why would I do that? From my perspective, it was he and I against everyone else.

The threats worked, and Ralph decided to protect himself by never calling again.

Ralph was very kind and gentle, and as such I suffered no physical damage. Also, despite having had many years of therapy for issues stemming from drug and alcohol abuse, not once has a counselor, social worker, psychologist or psychiatrist (and I’ve seen them all) suggested that I suffered any obvious psychological damage as a result of this. In other words, for all intents and purposes it does not appear to have been a particularly traumatic experience for me.

Nevertheless, I believe that what he did was immoral. I believe that he exploited my youthful ignorance and naivety for his own sexual pleasure; taking advantage of the knowledge he had gained from his greater life experience to coerce me. I further believe that my dysfunctional family life and the highly restrictive cult my family contributed greatly to my susceptibility to his influence, and I think he used that to his advantage in his ‘seduction’.
I also believe that at that age, I should not have been expected to understand or accept responsibility for the broad implications of consenting to a romantic or sexual relationship, much less make the decision to submit to moving in with him and being fully dependent on his care, and I don’t think it would have been healthy or productive for me to have such a relationship with him.

As I have said, I personally believe that it is immoral for an adult to enter into a romantic and/or sexual relationship with a child. Nevertheless, I know there are reasonable, intelligent people out there who promote the opposite viewpoint. I believe reasonable discussion on the subject is therefore very important, as it is likely to be a much more effective method of dissuading a rational person from engaging in what I consider an immoral activity than shouting accusations is.

Despite the fact that these events transpired over 20 years ago, I still remember Ralph's full name. Writing this story inspired me to do a Google search for him, and this is what I found (http://www.da.westchester.ny.us/detailp.cfm?page=450).

vm

[Huzington]

A very good post.

Though I can confute much of what has been said as concerns the immorality and harmfulness of paedophilia, yet it seems your post is one about discussing paedophilia and I am in complete agreement with regards to what is said in your post of discussing paedophilia.

Unless you do have interest in talking about the immorality or harmfulness of paedophilic relationships and you do not have interest in talking about the manner in which paedophilia ought to be discussed on an internet forum such as this one, then that is all I have to say about your post.

By the way, if he have any idea of paedophilia, then yes, the harmfulness subsequent was social conditioning. Is it possible that is the case? Your posts seems to say as much. Such harmfulness a social construct perhaps.

_________
You can find me at:
Infidels (http://www.infidels.org)
Politics Forum (http://www.politicsforum.org)
Socialist Front (http://www.socialistfront.org/forum/)
The Phora (http://www.thephora.org)

Knowlede is power. Study Marxism (http://www.oneparty.co.uk/).

[three4jump]

viscous, your post was very moving. I found it painful to read, and I find it difficult to make a response that is in keeping with generous way you shared your experience. I could see the benefits of discussing the causes and effects of pedophilia in order to find ways to prevent it in the future, but I can't see the benefit of discussing the moral right to do it.

If I had a choice between two scenarios--one in which I entered a sexual relationship with a child without any danger of being arrested and without any social stigma attached to my actions; the other scenario being one of platonic friendship with that child along with mentoring and protection from physical and emotional dangers--I would feel somewhat confident that I could make an ethical choice by asking which scenario would be in the best interest of the child. From everything in my experience and reading, it would be a pretty clear choice as to which would have the most reasonable chance of benefitting the child. It is hard for me to imagine an ethical system that would allow me to satisfy my own physical desires at the expense of the child and still say it is somehow beneficial for the child.

The above statement is full of weaknesses that could be attacked on philosphical grounds. There may be a theoretical philosophy in which sexual relationships between adults and children turns out to be healthy and beneficial to all, but there would be no practical way to practice that philosophy in our current society. I don't have children, but if I did, I would not be willing to risk their health and wellbeing by trying out some theoretical philosophy of ethical pedophilia on them. For me, any productive discussion of pedophilia would have to revolve around ways of preventing it or channelling the driving psychology toward some other outlet.

I'm sorry this is not worded well, but it is a difficult topic for me to discuss.

[viscousmemories]

Originally posted by Huzington
A very good post. Thank you.

Though I can confute much of what has been said as concerns the immorality and harmfulness of paedophilia, yet it seems your post is one about discussing paedophilia and I am in complete agreement with regards to what is said in your post of discussing paedophilia.

Unless you do have interest in talking about the immorality or harmfulness of paedophilic relationships and you do not have interest in talking about the manner in which paedophilia ought to be discussed on an internet forum such as this one, then that is all I have to say about your post. There are two themes in my post that I am interested in discussing in this thread. One, as you have pointed out, is the nature of pedophilia discussions at IIDB in general. The other is the morality of pedophilic activity in general, using the specific scenario in my OP as a framework.

By the way, if he have any idea of paedophilia, then yes, the harmfulness subsequent was social conditioning. Is it possible that is the case? Your posts seems to say as much. Such harmfulness a social construct perhaps. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by this. Are you asking if I think that any harm in this situation came about as a result of social conditioning? I used to think so. In fact for years I argued that the only reason I was ashamed of what had happened was because everyone I told this story to responded negatively.

I only recently realized that the real reason I was ashamed is because I didn’t want it to happen, but I didn’t protest. In other words, I blamed myself. I was ashamed not because of the social stigma around homosexuality or pedophilia, but because I allowed someone to touch me in a way that I didn’t want to be touched. I was ashamed that I didn’t stick up for myself. I used to daydream about the occurrence for years afterward, and imagine all the things I could have done to stop him. I imagined kicking him hard with both feet, launching him out of the window behind him. I hated him. I felt used and exploited by him, and I had been.

The thing that got me past the hate and shame was rationalizing the behavior. I decided that what he had done wasn’t really immoral because I consented. I believed that for a long time. However, I now believe that what he did was immoral, because he very clearly took advantage of my youthful ignorance and susceptibility to misdirection, and coerced me to do something I absolutely did not want to do.

I already know you agree that reasonable debate on this issue is positive. So regarding my other theme, do you disagree that Ralph's actions in this case were immoral?

vm

[viscousmemories]

Originally posted by three4jump
viscous, your post was very moving. I found it painful to read, and I find it difficult to make a response that is in keeping with generous way you shared your experience. Thank you.

I could see the benefits of discussing the causes and effects of pedophilia in order to find ways to prevent it in the future, but I can't see the benefit of discussing the moral right to do it. The way I see it, if one person reads this thread or is influenced by someone else affected by this thread, and therefore reconsiders their moral position before acting on their desire, it’s most definitely worth discussing.

For me, any productive discussion of pedophilia would have to revolve around ways of preventing it or channelling the driving psychology toward some other outlet. I might agree with your sentiment if I intended to limit the discussion to the subject of clinical pedophilia as outlined in the DSM-IV (which is essentially adult sexual obsession with prepubescents), but I’m going more for the "underage sex" version of pedophilia as defined at Wikipedia (any sexual interaction between adults and children). For various reasons I think it’s tricky (but as I hope I’m demonstrating, not impossible) to make a moral case against all adult/child sexual interaction.

I'm sorry this is not worded well, but it is a difficult topic for me to discuss. No need to apologize. I’m suddenly finding this topic rather difficult to discuss myself, which it never has been before. Nevertheless, I believe the show must go on. Thank you for making the effort.

vm

[zoe]

Hi Visious,

Wow, I don't know what to say. Your post brings some powerful feelings up for me and you told it so well I wish I could express myself as well so many on list are able to.

I do know some people think children wont be harmed if they consent to the act <nabmla ect...>but I read <i think> your second post and there you talk about anger and shame how you didn't want it to happen this is the big <and i hope I am expressing myself OK i do not have the formal education many on list obviously have my writing ability needs a lot of work> it seems to me if you didn't want it to happen you where not really consenting maybe you said yes but you where not consenting not wanting this relationship with this adult and he knew that. Its a betrayal of trust. It is immoral. That is the whole problem with this a child cannot make this kind of choice.

I am a big on my kids being able to make choices for themselves but even a very liberal parent as myself knows there are things they cannot be responsible for deciding there limited experience dictates this.

People who say the child wanted it they agreed to it and no harm was done are only fooling themselves. I am a survivor of 2 different pedophiles at 2 different times in my life and I used to think it did nothing to me that I handled it pretty dam well. Then at 28 it just all hit me like a brick wall I was a mess....its not that I forgot about it but it was like I forgot to feel about it before and then bam it hit.

Pedophiles do much damage the total can never be expressed. At least for me it was a death. Not that I hate life or anything like that but a death of who I was before it happened it robbed me of something ...something I cant put my finger on but I know iv been robbed....if that makes any sense. It took part of me and changed it forever.

Worst of all pedophiles I believe <its late but I could probably do a search on this> rarely stick to one victim ..The damage one pedophile can do is so big.

I don't know if answered anything you asked even......but I felt I had to reply to this

peace
zoe

[viscousmemories]

Originally posted by zoe
Hi Visious,

Wow, I don't know what to say. Your post brings some powerful feelings up for me and you told it so well I wish I could express myself as well so many on list are able to. Hi zoe, I think you expressed yourself very well, particularly considering that it’s a hard topic to discuss.

<snip> ...it seems to me if you didn't want it to happen you where not really consenting maybe you said yes but you where not consenting not wanting this relationship with this adult and he knew that. Its a betrayal of trust. It is immoral. That is the whole problem with this a child cannot make this kind of choice. Right, my main point being that I consented only because I really didn’t know any better. He described a particular relationship between men and boys (one in which sexual exploration was harmless fun) as ‘normal’, relying on my mental and emotional immaturity to disable me from realizing that in fact the relationship he sought with me was abnormal.

I am a big on my kids being able to make choices for themselves but even a very liberal parent as myself knows there are things they cannot be responsible for deciding there limited experience dictates this. Right. And that’s assuming you raise your children in fairly normal circumstances.

People who say the child wanted it they agreed to it and no harm was done are only fooling themselves. I am a survivor of 2 different pedophiles at 2 different times in my life and I used to think it did nothing to me that I handled it pretty dam well. Then at 28 it just all hit me like a brick wall I was a mess....its not that I forgot about it but it was like I forgot to feel about it before and then bam it hit.

Pedophiles do much damage the total can never be expressed. At least for me it was a death. Not that I hate life or anything like that but a death of who I was before it happened it robbed me of something ...something I cant put my finger on but I know iv been robbed....if that makes any sense. It took part of me and changed it forever. I’m sorry you had to go through it, zoe. I personally know a number of people who have had similar experiences, including some of my own siblings. Which brings up another very good point: Just because the child may seem perfectly happy and adjusted at the time of the occurrence, doesn’t necessarily indicate that no damage was done.

Worst of all pedophiles I believe <its late but I could probably do a search on this> rarely stick to one victim ..The damage one pedophile can do is so big. Sure. It’s common sense, really. The source of their attraction invariably ages or becomes unavailable for some other reason, or they simply lose interest and move on. In any case, it’s unreasonable to assume that a pedophile is going to stop seducing children without legal or clinical intervention.

I don't know if answered anything you asked even......but I felt I had to reply to this

peace
zoe You did, zoe. Thank you. I appreciate your response.

vm

[Poseidon]

[off topic post deleted - please check your PM box]

[livius drusus]

First I would like to thank you for writing such an extraordinary post. The fact that very few people have had the wherewithal to respond on a topic that up until now has generated dozens of pages of heated discussion is a telling testimony to the rare and compelling nature of your raw honesty and nuanced analysis.

I agree that focusing on the immediate harm pedophiles cause their victims leaves several glaring loopholes. What if there is no penetration? What if the encounter is entirely non-violent, even gentle? What if the child has no objection and even derives physical pleasure or emotional solace from the encounter? Considering how often pedophiles target children with horrendous home lives, these are not outlandish possibilities.

But just because a child is not harmed does not mean he or she has not been violated and deceived and used. It may read like a contrived distinction, but I don't think it is. A boy like you were, trapped in a hostile home environment where fear and anger were the defaults, of course you would find the carefree world of Ralph's New York an almost irresistable draw. You didn't see the massive potential for lethal danger. How in the world could you? Compared to the way your parents treated you, Ralph was a prince.

He knew this. He knew this the moment he saw you on that bench. He knew it even more once he started talking, probing to see your boundaries, to see just how ignorant of reality and vulnerable to his fantasy depictions you were. That was the first violation. With his greater knowledge, he got into your head and planted glamorized images of sexuality which he hoped to harvest later for his sexual pleasure.

Then he moved from thought to action when he took you to his hotel room. This is the second violation, and a considerable escalation from the first. Now he had access your body and he used it, if not expressly against your will, then certainly without anything like informed consent. The fact that you resisted his entreaties to perform oral sex on him is a testament to your extraordinary will power and self-possession against all odds as well as to his complete disregard for your actual wishes and desires.

Then he took you home and introduced himself to your mom. Was it sheer balls? I tend to think he had deduced from what he knew of you and your circumstances that he was in no immediate danger from her, that he could push even further. And so he did.

This final act is the most horrifying of all: the New York trip. When I think of the monstruously terrifying danger you would have been in if he had gotten you on a plane. Even if he remained content with the sexual interaction you had had up until that point, something I very, very much doubt, how long could this roomie scenario possibly last? Once he started demanding more than you were willing to give, you would have been left with two options: either succumb to rape, or run away. What would have become of you once he tired of you? No way he would have sent you back home to tell the tale and turn him in.

A 12 year old ignorant fundie kid, fresh out of a pedophilic relationship on the streets of New York City. I think it's vomitously safe to say that you would not be alive today to tell the tale with such open elegance.

So to sum up this appallingly long-winded reply, Ralph may not have caused you pain, physical or emotional, in the short term, but he violated and used you, took advantage of the horrors of your home life and your naivete about the realities of life and put you in mind-boggling danger. All of this, because he wanted to get off.

Thank you for telling us. Thank you for being alive. You showed him. You showed them all.

[Talulah]

Tom, your brutal honesty is appreciated by many here, I can assure you.

I want to discuss some things that have been running through my head lately and I hope that I will be able to do that with some success.

Have we all been convinced that we should be traumatized by what society tells us we should be, and that this trauma should take a certain form, i.e., flashbacks, insomnia, panic attacks, multiple personality disorder?

I had a background of a fundy family and a violent father. Truthfully, I don’t remember ever being told I had a right to say no to any adult. My parents were so rigid about respect for adults that we were spanked for relating a story of something that happened at school and in relating a conversation with a teacher, omitting the “Yes Ma’am or Sir” from the STORY.

I was an outcast at school. I don’t know why, but the three years I was at middle school I was beat up, spit on, called every sort of thing you can imagine and degraded day after day and fondled flagrantly by boys in the hall and in classes. When I was 12, I had a teacher in the seventh grade (he was in his early 40’s) that took quite a fancy to me. He picked me out of the class for special treatment. I sat in the front right beside him the entire year. Even when he would rearrange the class I would keep my seat of honor. I loved the attention. I felt special. I knew he liked me whereas the other teachers just ignored me. I guess I was just another snot-nosed little brat they had to deal with.

Then things started getting uncomfortable. First he would be standing at the door when I would come to class and he would hug me. He would make me hug him if I shied away, blocking my way into the room. Eventually, these hugs became lengthy. More than casual contact it was an embrace that lasted several minutes at times. As time went by, he started telling the class that we were engaged and that he wanted to marry me. The first day he got down on his knees in front of me in the front of the class and proposed to me I went home and told my mother what he was saying and doing. She said he just liked me and I should flirt back. (I think she recommended getting a toy ring and giving it to him in return). I didn’t say anything else to her about it. The proposing continued and then he started making me hold his hand during class. He told the class we were in love.

At this point I was eat up with shame and confusion. I think the shame was mostly from the audience, and the comments they would make. I didn’t know what I was doing to make him do these things and I had no clue how to make it stop. I didn’t really think of anything else at the time, I didn’t think he was perverted; I just viewed it with confusion at his strangeness. All along I didn’t believe he really WAS attracted to me, I just assumed he was playing cruel games.

My view shifted when one day he pulled out a letter opener and set it on my desk. It had a very prominent figure of a naked little boy holding his penis on it. (I assume this letter opener was a replica of a statue of a little boy peeing that is a fountain I saw in a book a few years ago). It had become my custom to ignore him, so I refused to look at what he had put on my desk. Eventually my eyes fell on it. It is hard to express now but at that time I was very childish and prudish and I was completely horrified by it. The sight of it deeply offended and embarrassed me and I turned bright red. He was watching me closely. He reached down and pushed it over until it touched my arm. I suppose I could have gotten up and left but where would I have gone? I sat there stone still until the bell rang then I jumped up and ran out. Now the letter opener was on my desk every day. I tried to ignore it but he made sure it was in my line of sight. He eventually started rubbing it on my arm and whispering to me that he knew that I liked to look at it.

That was the whole of that experience though I can’t express the endless day after day feeling of it. There was one time that he put his hand down the back of my pants in class, but he only did it once. He was a preacher, so he would sometimes bring tapes of himself singing or speaking at church to class. He didn’t teach anything. He would put transparencies up on Mondays that were lists of sentences. On Thursday, he would use the exact transparency with a few words missing to test us. The class was history but obliviously he was far to busy with me to bother with teaching.

I was harmed by it, but in a vague sort of way. I started reacting very violently to people touching me (I always had a dislike of being touched though). I developed an eating disorder, though I hesitate to tie that into it as many young women have this issue because of societal pressures. I didn’t view myself as a victim of sexual abuse though I did tell a couple of people “what happened.” Anytime I dared to tell anyone I always got responses like “how could he do those things in front of the class and get away with it.” Most often I get the impression that people plain don’t believe me. Well, I say to that, they would believe that some man would rape a tiny little child in the woods but they don’t believe a person would be bad enough or brave enough to do the things I described in front of 30 other 12 year olds, most of whom probably couldn’t see what was going on, or if they could hear and see, didn’t feel it like I did because it wasn’t being done to them.

In college, I was still looking for answers to resolve how I felt about what had happened. I basically carried the belief with me that nothing bad had happened and I was sick in some way to be even thinking about such things. I found a board on the Internet that was for survivors of sexual abuse. For the first time I had an audience. People who felt sorry for me, who validated my experiences, who told me I had a right to feel bad. In short, yes you are a victim. Along with that, came “you should be sick like us.” Within a few months I was burning myself with cigarette lighters and purging. Most of the women who went to this board were “multiples” or “had littles.” Then came what I had feared. The women told me that what I “remembered” was not bad enough to be causing the problems I was having. (Keep in mind the only problems I had when I went there was the fact that I didn’t like men to touch me and I was confused about this and some other feelings I had. Basically, I was a brainwashed kid from a dysfunctional family who was trying to find why things didn’t feel right.) I started searching my memory but nothing was there. Eventually something did "come" to me and I believed it. I believed I had been raped and sodomized as a small child and that must be why my whole life I had felt like a freak. Voila. The answer.

Interestingly enough, I started "losing time" and hearing voices. I must be a multiple too, I thought. I wasn't surprised. I was just like all my 'friends' at the board.

[Talulah]

I had a psychologist diagnosis me as DID (dissociative identity disorder) during a 15-minute conversation with no background information at all. She diagnosed me when I told her I sometimes heard voices when I was falling asleep. I later found out that is a symptom of depression. At any rate, once I got away from these people telling me how I should feel and behave as a ‘survivor’ then these things all faded away.

I do not doubt that sexual abuse IS harmful. Yes, I believe pedophilia to be an absolute wrong. Nothing makes my blood boil more. I also, in part believe that we feel this because of the influence of culture. I think that there are and can be cultures were children are conditioned to accept sexual relations between adults and be ok with it. That is not the case here, and I do believe those people who seek sexual relations with children to be predators.

My major issue with this subject is this: Take this scenario. A two and a half year old child is held down, naked, and her genital area is handled and manipulated. She is hurt. She is terrified. She doesn’t know what is going on. Her mother is there. Why is her mother trying to hurt her? Why isn’t her mother helping her? The child refuses to go near her grandmother for months after the incident because she dresses like one of the abusers. This happened to me. I was almost 3 and had serious kidney problems. My grandmother was a nurse and I was terrified of her uniform and wouldn’t go near her until she took it off for months afterward. It apparently made an impression on me that lasted some time. I don’t remember any of it. I have been told that story. This traumatic experience does not affect me today in any way that I can ferret out. I know this story has no element of coercion but it supports my theory that it is what the experience does to your MIND that affects you in the long run, not what happens to your body. No one wants to pat me on the head and cluck about me being abused by doctors and nurses at a tender age. People accept that it happened and it was necessary. I think we should use a similar approach to sexual abuse. It happened, it was horrible at the time, its not happening now, why should it affect the here and now?

[zoe]

My major issue with this subject is this: Take this scenario. A two and a half year old child is held down, naked, and her genital area is handled and manipulated. She is hurt. She is terrified. She doesn’t know what is going on. Her mother is there. Why is her mother trying to hurt her? Why isn’t her mother helping her? The child refuses to go near her grandmother for months after the incident because she dresses like one of the abusers. This happened to me. I was almost 3 and had serious kidney problems. My grandmother was a nurse and I was terrified of her uniform and wouldn’t go near her until she took it off for months afterward. It apparently made an impression on me that lasted some time. I don’t remember any of it. I have been told that story. This traumatic experience does not affect me today in any way that I can ferret out. I know this story has no element of coercion but it supports my theory that it is what the experience does to your MIND that affects you in the long run, not what happens to your body. No one wants to pat me on the head and cluck about me being abused by doctors and nurses at a tender age. People accept that it happened and it was necessary. I think we should use a similar approach to sexual abuse. It happened, it was horrible at the time, its not happening now, why should it affect the here and now?

Pedophiles often repeat there acts many time over the course of many years. A child doesn't have to hide the fact the doctor had to examine her adults will readily talk about it. Sex with children is not necessary or of benefit to the child. big difference.

Have you ever felt humiliated or had people look at you different when you tell this story? Has anyone ever told you it was all your fault you should have known better? After the Doctors visit how did the adult treat you? Did they make you feel ashamed and like you should be quiet about it? When you tell this story do people ever not believe you? Tell you that you are liar are the people telling you this people you thought loved you?


While I can only speak for myself I don't want a pat on the head or to be clucked at about how abused I was. What happened is part of what makes me who I am today yet its a part I have to skim over and pretend didn't happen most of the time.

Having been a victim of this I have to say it does have negative effects even if you go on with a pretty good happy life. I am intelligent enough to know where some my quirks come from and work around or threw they but it will forever be a struggle for me because its like I'm hardwired to avoid close enough contact to let this happen again <a good thing yes but not with out some trade off's I assure you>


Peace
Zoe

[Talulah]

Yes of course Zoe,

Everything you said is true. I adknowledge that there is a major difference between the situation I described and the one you are alluding to. I did state that I believe the real damage is done to the mind. I understand how people are about this subject. I was only trying to point out that if a stranger had done this same thing to me, that people would be horrified and I would have the stigma of being a "victim." I would be told that I should feel all these things, that I should feel violated and damaged. As it is, people don't blink or think twice about it. It happened, it was neccessary, what do you care? Now if I DID feel like I had been damaged by this, then it would be different. What I am trying to point out, is that my perception of this experiance comes from society. It's no big deal, so I believe that. I brought this up in part, because I have seen some people say that they are sexual abuse victims because of something very similar to what I described, invasive medical procedures as a child.

I am not trying to minimize anyone's experiances or pain. I am only trying to point out a scenerio to make people think. I know that my scenario doesn't cover what is most damaging, i.e., long term sexual abuse by a relative. What I AM trying to say is that *perhaps* there are cases where our preceptions of the harm that was caused comes from society telling us we should be harmed and not actually because we were.

[zoe]

I am only trying to point out a scenerio to make people think. I know that my scenario doesn't cover what is most damaging, i.e., long term sexual abuse by a relative. What I AM trying to say is that *perhaps* there are cases where our preceptions of the harm that was caused comes from society telling us we should be harmed and not actually because we were.

Reading your post I have to say Yes I think your rite about some of it maybe even most of the harm coming from society but still there something <i realize this sounds a lot like xtians saying they know god is there because they feel it> The something is a bad feeling, I was 2 or 3 the first time a pedophile got hold of me and it felt wrong and somehow I knew. I never told anyone till I was in my 20's so there was no one to pass judgment still it felt wrong. I felt a basic trust violated < i did not want what was happening> and the pedophile was not cruel or otherwise abusive he made it like it was a game still it felt wrong still it left its scar.

I am also talking about 1960 something before we ran around telling kids not to let any one touch you under you bathing suit or about bad touches.

[diana]

I am also talking about 1960 something before we ran around telling kids not to let any one touch you under you bathing suit or about bad touches.Hi, zoe.

Tal and I were raised almost identically--that is, in the same fundamentalist religion in the same area of the country with basically the same family structure--so I feel somewhat qualified to toss in a couple of things for consideration here.

While this may have been done when I was a kid and when she was a kid, my parents never told me about "bad touches" or any such thing. I'm sure, if you asked my parents, they would tell you they told me that I was "welcome to tell them anything" and probably also "was told to come tell them immediately if someone did anything to me." Or something equally vague.

Honestly, I don't remember them ever giving any advice or caution that would help me determine whether the way someone was touching me was "good" or "bad." However, I do recall those chintzy "don't take candy from strangers" films in grade school and assuming it might be because I'd be kidnapped and ransomed/killed or because the candy might poison me. The possibility of being a sexual victim never occurred to me because I didn't even know sex existed.

Yes...I was taught to be ashamed of my body. (It was called "modesty," I think.) But watch what happens when a child knows nothing about sex and has been taught to be ashamed of his body:

If a child such as this is approached by a pedophile, the child is an easy victim because the parents have kept the child ignorant of the extent of the existing threats. The child expects "danger" to come in the form of pain. If there is no pain, the child may feel uncomfortable, but quite likely won't be compelled to go tell anyone because there is no pain and he has been touch in places that he's been taught to be ashamed of. It's worse if he feels any pleasure, because of the shame he's been taught.

Now he's confused. What's to report, exactly? There's been no actual threat, as far as the child is concerned. Nobody has hurt him. And what happened is something he maybe enjoyed and is loathe to think about because he's been taught to be ashamed of "those places."

I wasn't taught to report any of this stuff. It was simply assumed--apparently--that I would never be in a position to be thus assaulted.

I think this stems from denial on the part of the parents that there really are people like that out there. I mean, you read about it in the news and hear people discussing it, but because you don't think you've ever actually met such a person, you don't really believe it.

How wrong they were.

d

[viscousmemories]

Hi livius,

I’m terribly sorry to have taken so long to respond to this, but I had a nervous breakdown recently (unrelated to the issues discussed here) that I’m just now starting to recover from.
Originally posted by livius drusus First I would like to thank you for writing such an extraordinary post. The fact that very few people have had the wherewithal to respond on a topic that up until now has generated dozens of pages of heated discussion is a telling testimony to the rare and compelling nature of your raw honesty and nuanced analysis. Thank you. I too am a little surprised by how few people have joined this discussion. I blame it on “long as hell OP” syndrome. With all the threads to pick from, It’s not too shocking that many skimmed right past this one. I agree that focusing on the immediate harm pedophiles cause their victims leaves several glaring loopholes. What if there is no penetration? What if the encounter is entirely non-violent, even gentle? What if the child has no objection and even derives physical pleasure or emotional solace from the encounter? Considering how often pedophiles target children with horrendous home lives, these are not outlandish possibilities.

But just because a child is not harmed does not mean he or she has not been violated and deceived and used. It may read like a contrived distinction, but I don't think it is. A boy like you were, trapped in a hostile home environment where fear and anger were the defaults, of course you would find the carefree world of Ralph's New York an almost irresistable draw. You didn't see the massive potential for lethal danger. How in the world could you? Compared to the way your parents treated you, Ralph was a prince. Right. In fact for many years I blamed myself for what had happened because I hadn’t fought him and it was physically pleasurable for me. Actually, I even rationalized (at some point) that what he had done wasn’t wrong because I didn’t protest. There are many reasons kids succumb to sexual coercion, but it is important to note that by definition, a child who consents to a sexual relationship with an adult is not making an informed decision, and is therefore necessarily being coerced. He knew this. He knew this the moment he saw you on that bench. He knew it even more once he started talking, probing to see your boundaries, to see just how ignorant of reality and vulnerable to his fantasy depictions you were. That was the first violation. With his greater knowledge, he got into your head and planted glamorized images of sexuality which he hoped to harvest later for his sexual pleasure. Excellent points. In my naivety, the default assumption was that he just happened to sit down next to me and strike up conversation (out of boredom or whatever) and that conversation just happened to lead into the later events. It never even occurred to me, until you wrote that, that I was a target from go and that everything he did and said from the minute he saw me was designed to result in him molesting me. Then he moved from thought to action when he took you to his hotel room. This is the second violation, and a considerable escalation from the first. Now he had access your body and he used it, if not expressly against your will, then certainly without anything like informed consent. The fact that you resisted his entreaties to perform oral sex on him is a testament to your extraordinary will power and self-possession against all odds as well as to his complete disregard for your actual wishes and desires. Another very good point. It is important to note that for all his words, he really didn’t care about what I wanted. His only interest was in getting what he could from me. Then he took you home and introduced himself to your mom. Was it sheer balls? I tend to think he had deduced from what he knew of you and your circumstances that he was in no immediate danger from her, that he could push even further. And so he did. I never really thought about it like that. I always assumed he simply figured his, “I met your runaway son on the diag and convinced him to come home” story was ironclad. You may very well be right, though. I have always been an open person, so it’s likely that I told this guy about my Dad being abusive and my Mom staying with him for many years.

This final act is the most horrifying of all: the New York trip. When I think of the monstruously terrifying danger you would have been in if he had gotten you on a plane. Even if he remained content with the sexual interaction you had had up until that point, something I very, very much doubt, how long could this roomie scenario possibly last? Once he started demanding more than you were willing to give, you would have been left with two options: either succumb to rape, or run away. What would have become of you once he tired of you? No way he would have sent you back home to tell the tale and turn him in.

A 12 year old ignorant fundie kid, fresh out of a pedophilic relationship on the streets of New York City. I think it's vomitously safe to say that you would not be alive today to tell the tale with such open elegance. You know, until you wrote this I never really gave much thought to that whole deal. It genuinely seemed like a win-win to me at the time. He would get a boy-toy and I would get free room and board with no school or other responsibilities. I would get companionship and preserve my masculinity by bringing along a girl. (Btw I did ask a girl I knew casually from the arcade, and she accepted) Of course in retrospect, you’re absolutely right. He almost certainly would have kept me as ignorant and dependent on him as humanly possible until he had no more use for me, then he would have booted me out on the street. So to sum up this appallingly long-winded reply, Ralph may not have caused you pain, physical or emotional, in the short term, but he violated and used you, took advantage of the horrors of your home life and your naivete about the realities of life and put you in mind-boggling danger. All of this, because he wanted to get off. Thank you for your reply, which I don’t think was remotely long-winded. I think your summation is spot on, and provides solid evidence against the feasibility of truly ‘consensual’ adult-child sexual interaction.
Thank you for telling us. Thank you for being alive. You showed him. You showed them all. Thank you so much for your kind words. I have to say I don’t feel like much of a hero. Particularly when I think of the number of kids he must have done this to in the 20 years between doing it to me and his arrest. Nevertheless, I am glad to have the opportunity to share my experience if there’s a chance of it helping someone else.

vm

[ACow]

First of all i'd like to congradulate the posters who have the maturity to come forth and talk about the topic and their experiences. :notworthy

Now, that being said, i'll state my view on some things.

The first is that paedophilia and a number of its negative points can probably be seen as a social construct. It should also be pointed out that just because one isn't specifically told or informed by another that a situation is wrong/abnormal, doesn't mean society hasn't imprinted you, or that you won't feel when a situation in society is "weird" or "wrong.

A study of the PNG tribe known as the Etoro can show how both homosexuality and prebubescent sexual relations can be built into the core of a society. (you MIGHT get afew hits if you search for them, though you'd be more successfull in anthropological literature). HEAVILY summarizing and brushing over some of the deeper beliefs, the Etoro have a outlook involving life force and semen. Consequently, just before or at the beggining of puberty, each boy is required to be inseminated repeatedly by an older man of the tribe. And when they are older, they will have to inseminate a younger boy as well. (its usually done orally IIRC). Go up to such a boy, ask whether they think the "paedophilia" has any negative effects, not only will they probably look at you funny, but what you're saying may even be seen to be completely rediculous. If anything, they'll claim its having positive effects.
After all, semen carries the life force, if anything, they are the ones that are taking away from the older male.

Now that being said, i do think the paedophilia in this case is immoral. Because the paedophile in such a case is much more like a sexual predator. The man preys upon the young, the inexperienced, preys upon their ignorance. He has full knowlege of what he's doing, he's essentially using them for his own means.