Is there such a thing as Good vs. Bad?

[Athius]

Hello everyone, it's been a very long time since I've posted in here as I've been very busy in life lately.

But anywho I have many issues to talk about and as always it is an honor to hear everyone's views, comments, criticisms, etc.

The first issue I wanted to talk about is "Good vs. Bad/Evil" (btw. please forgive me if this issue has been talked about many times before).

Let's get right to the point. Is there such a thing as good? or evil? What does good and bad even mean?

I've talked to a lot of people about this, and they all usually come up with the same answer. Everyone always says "Well good is like helping out people, being nice to everyone, not stealing, not hurting others, etc." I thought about these answers and if you really look at it in physical terms, we see good and bad as simply actions and events that makes us "happy". Now what is "happiness"? Isn't happiness simply a certain interaction between some neurotransmitters and certain hormones which cause us to feel "good"? If that's the case what if a certain action or event makes person A "happy" but person B "unhappy", would you say that that action is good or bad?

You might say well there are some actions that are universally good because they make everyone happy, but I think that's not the case. You can come up with any example and I can give you a counter-example where that case could make someone else unhappy/angry/sad, etc for whatever reason.

We tend to see "good" things as things that should be done all the time and "bad" things as things that should be avoided. For example we see death as a bad thing while it is actually a good thing in terms of continuing the life cycle. We see pain as a bad thing while it is a necessity if we want to live properly.

My conclusion is that every possible action/event/phenomena, etc. that is present in our universe is simply neutral, they're neither good nor bad. Good and bad are simply labels that humans have put on objects/events to identify them as something that either helps or hampers the survival of our specie (exactly what Darwin said)

[Robert Anthony]

Originally posted by UCE
My conclusion is that every possible action/event/phenomena, etc. that is present in our universe is simply neutral, they're neither good nor bad. Good and bad are simply labels that humans have put on objects/events to identify them as something that either helps or hampers the survival of our specie (exactly what Darwin said)

This is reasonable and laudable, and shows much intellectual courage. Even among infidels infantile, sentimental foolery predominates. I bet some good-hearted utilitarian will attack your conclusion on 'moral grounds'.

We have no choice but to justify ourselves, to stuff within the confines of time this imperious lifeforce we linguistically domesticate as 'Mankind'.

[phil]

If every action and even is neutral, how are we to structure our society? Should we even structure our society?

By structer I mean rules and laws. Every society has its own rules and laws based upon what they think to be good and bad, do they not? If we conclude everything is neutral, how can the problem of society structure be solved?

-phil

[Thomas Ash]

Originally posted by Robert Anthony
This is reasonable and laudable, and shows much intellectual courage. Even among infidels infantile, sentimental foolery predominates. I bet some good-hearted utilitarian will attack your conclusion on 'moral grounds'.

Well, count me in :) . I think putting 'moral grounds' in quotes and calling the "infantile, sentimental foolery" presupposes your conclusion (obviously.) Could I ask UCE why we can't make a utilitarian balance of good and bad results (happiness/pain/etc.)? He seems to do so in his conclusion, but before treats the rather obvious ( :p ;) ) fact that different actions have different results for different people as a killer blow to any universal morality.

[Athius]

Originally posted by phil
If every action and even is neutral, how are we to structure our society? Should we even structure our society?

By structer I mean rules and laws. Every society has its own rules and laws based upon what they think to be good and bad, do they not? If we conclude everything is neutral, how can the problem of society structure be solved?

-phil

Well whether I like it or not and whether there is such a thing as good and bad, society will be structured anyway. Humans always want to put order to things and put a label on everything they see. But let me give you an example:

Say there is this poor homeless family that lives somewhere in a third world country (say Afghanistan). The child and the wife are both sick and are in dire need of food. There is no work and job available and thus no income. The man is forced to steal in order to save his family from death. He steals a loaf of bread.

Now according to "Moral law" and the laws of a "Structured society", the man has violated a rule and must be punished for it. Some say his action was bad, some can say it was good. But to me bad and good have no meaning, and just like everything else that happens in the world, his action was neutral. In simple terms, It was simply the response to a stimulus, as is EVERYTHING that goes on in the universe.

I'll give another example that is easier to judge whether the person is guilty or not. A man shoots another man dead. You will automatically say the man is guilty and must be punished (i.e. his action was bad). I don't see it that way, I see it as this: The man was born and raised in a very bad family (Call this "A") where he not only did not learn anything "good" from his family, but his upbrining actually led him to become a criminal or whatever. It happens all the time. Stats show that the better the family upbrining and the less likely the child will persue "bad" activities when he/she is older. Now as I was saying, the man is raised in a bad family, drops out of high school (Call this "B" = result of A), persues criminal activities (Call this "C" = result of B) to not only make money but to feel "cool" and powerful, which is an innate desire of every man. He then joins the gang in order to further quench the unquenchable thirst for power and money (D = result of C). He finally ends up to where we were at the beginning: He kills another man (result of D). At this point, his mind set is so different than the "normal" citizen that he considers what he has done as very normal and in fact "good".

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there should be no rules and laws in a society. What I'm trying to say is that everything is explainable and there is no such thing as the right way and the wrong way. We as humans tend to think what is done by majority is "right" and therefore "good", and everything else is "wrong" and "bad".

In the end what I'm trying to say is that everything in the universe is nothing but molecules and atoms in motion. Everything we put a label on (objects, humans, living things, matter, emotions, phenomenas, etc.) are nothing but movements of certain types of atoms in space. We as humans want to control this random motion and set it in a certain path, and if we see an obstacle in our way, we destroy it (or at least try to). What I'm trying to say is that nothing we do matters or is in any way correct or wrong, it simply either fits or doesn't fit into the defined path that society has created for us.

I hope I explained my point more clearly. I always have a hard time articulating my points, as english is not my first language and I'm not very good at writing. I have very complex ideas in my head but it's hard for me to put them into words.