Wanted: USA Military Veterans Who Do Not Believe In God

[Bill]

The Secular Coalition for America (http://www.secular.org/) is considering a campaign against the Veterans of Foreign Wars (https://www.vfw.org/index.cfm?fa=mbr.leveld&did=1211&tok=1) for their religious discrimination against those who do not believe in God. One of the criteria for starting this campaign will be to see just how many such veterans are willing to sign on to such a campaign. I would be particularly interested in hearing from any non-atheist US veterans who do not believe in God (i.e., Buddhists, etc.).

If you are interested in participating, please send me an email or a PM with a description of your particular situation. Thanks!

== Bill

[Gothic_J]

atheist and just joining up. what does veteran count as? faced combat? (puts it at 2 yrs)

[Bill]

Well, the VFW is the Veterans of Foreign Wars, and they have a list of things that will qualify you: serving in Korea for a minimum length of time, plus the issuance of any of the eligible campaign medals (http://www.vfw.org/index.cfm?fa=mbr.levele&eid=188). I was awarded the Vietnam Service Medal (with one bronze star device; you always got at least one.... more for longer tours of duty), and that is a listed service medal that makes me eligible to join the VFW (absent the other requirement of a belief in God). They have other special rules if you received hostile fire or imminent danger pay (http://www.dtic.mil/comptroller/fmr/07a/07A10.pdf). But with that exception and the Korean exception, the VFW generally requires that you be awarded a medal for service in an area of armed combat (including places like Kosovo and Iraq).

== Bill

[dangin]

I've never served, but I met a lot of these folks at the march last November.

http://www.maaf.info/

[Shake]

Anyway, I am an atheist veteran (nearly 9 years USAF), but I don't qualify for VFW membership in that I served (mainly) during peacetime ('93-'01). Although, we (people who joined around the same time as I) were still able to wear the National Defense ribbon, due to continued operations in Iraq from Gulf I. I also served during the time of operations in Kosovo, the attacks on Afghanistan, and for the 2 weeks immediately following 9/11 (I separated officially on 9/25/01).

So, are you just looking for combat-type vets or just your generic veteran, like me? When I was in a separation briefing, we were told that for purposes of VA benefits, job applications, etc., we were considered "veterans." I remember them saying something about time required to be considered a vet, but am a little foggy on what it was (everything from 1 day active duty up to 1 year is in my head).

[JohnR]

I am a atheist veteran. I served in the Marines (3rd Bn Recon) in Viet Nam. I was at Khe Sanh, got a purple heart. I joined the VFW a couple of years ago. Early this year I canceled my membership after the chapter commander said "atheist cannot be patriots", that we could not have served honorably. I wrote a furious letter to that commander and the main headquarters and sent my membership card back. Never heard a word from anyone. In fact they still send me the paper and membership renewals. Count me in if you need me.
At least the American Legion was up front about wanting only believer in a higher power or supreme being.

[Javaman]

Hey Shake,
One of the medals that counts is the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal. Look at the link posted. It's a fairly common medal, anymore. I got mine for a deployment for Northern Watch out of Incirlik, Turkey. The permanent party usually didn't get the medal but us deployed guys did. I only flew one operational sortie, though. My (soon to be) wife was none to pleased. I don't think I've ever asked you this but, as an AF veteran, what did you do?

[Shake]

Originally posted by Javaman
Hey Shake,
One of the medals that counts is the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal. Look at the link posted. It's a fairly common medal, anymore. I got mine for a deployment for Northern Watch out of Incirlik, Turkey. The permanent party usually didn't get the medal but us deployed guys did. I only flew one operational sortie, though. My (soon to be) wife was none to pleased. I don't think I've ever asked you this but, as an AF veteran, what did you do? Yeah, I didn't get that one. I was an avionics technician, and never deployed anywhere. Officially, our evacuation of the base for hurricane Floyd was a TDY, but other than that I never did any of those either. My career field didn't do much of that, other than for training.

[Javaman]

Bummer, Shake.

BTW, the Major in my office is one of the head dudes at one of the local VFW's and didn't know until I told him today about the God-belief requirement. He's quitting soon, apparently. Not 'cause of this revelation but because of the attitude of the folks there, I guess. A bunch of very sad drunks from what I gather.

[Pogue]

I am a atheist, U.S. Army SGT who just got out Oct 02. I don't know if I should be even posting anymore here, since there is so much hate in this forum.

Pogue

[Wayne Delia]

Bill - Check into alt.atheism on usenet, and look for a very regular poster with the handle "Stoney". We all have "AA numbers" (mine is 61, there are over 2500 different numbers handed out) and they've started a list of about a dozen atheists so far who have seen combat duty, to counter the prejudice that "there are no atheists in foxholes."

WMD

[Tickfast]

served 20 years 3 months 3 days in the Navy, 1980 to 2000. Awarded Good Conduct medal 5 times, Meritorius Unit Commendation, Battle E, Navy Achievement Medal, Defense Ribbon, Sea Service Ribbon. Earned Dolphins, deterrent pin.

No combat, but in 16 patrols on 4 different submarines, survived a few fire and flooding casualties that i never once prayed for help about.
Well, we did shake chicken bones at a missile to fix a problem in communicating with some electronics...worked fine after the ceremony.

[tribalbeeyatch]

Originally posted by Pogue
I am a atheist, U.S. Army SGT who just got out Oct 02. I don't know if I should be even posting anymore here, since there is so much hate in this forum.

Pogue So much hate in the CSS&SA forum or on the IIDB in general? Oh, and did you get out today or was that Oct. 2002? Congrats either way!

[Pogue]

Originally posted by tribalbeeyatch
So much hate in the CSS&SA forum or on the IIDB in general? Oh, and did you get out today or was that Oct. 2002? Congrats either way!

Oct 2002, and thank you very much! I can now afford to support my family in a decent manner. I'm loving it!! Not really hate so much, as intolerance of the opposing view. They seem to be in the habit of discounting anything that you haven't provided specific evidence for.

Can you say: "Appeal to Ignorance"?

Der PogueMeister

[Llyricist]

Can you say: "Appeal to Ignorance"?
Can you say: "Shifting the Burden of proof"?

[Pogue]

Originally posted by Llyricist
Can you say: "Shifting the Burden of proof"?

Unfortunately for you, your "appeal to ignorance" is actually a logical fallacy. Many times in our other thread, you keep saying "prove this didn't happen in 1950's/1960's".. If you have ever studied logic, you know it is impossible to prove something did NOT happen. But VERY easy to prove it DID happen.

So, you tell me, based on these definitions of logic, where does the burden of proof for what did/did not happen in the 50's/60's lie?

(You can switch over to another thread to attack me, but your conclusion tha the burden of proof lies with me is still just plain wrong)

Der PogueMeister

[Toto]

Please keep this thread on topic. Thank you

Toto
moderator CSS&SA

[McNamara]

I've only been in the Navy four years (mostly at the Academy) and I'm just about to start flight school (I'll be one of those "atheists-in-a-cockpit"), so I'm not a veteran yet. I just wanted to voice my support for those who have gone before me here. Best of luck in your endeavour, and let me know if there's anything I can do to help!

[Rooster_Ties]

Attestation of Eligibility:

* Yes! I attest by forwarding this application that I am a citizen of the United States and I have checked the membership eligibility requirements for the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States and find that I am eligible for membership in the VFW and that I have never been discharged under other than honorable conditions or I am still serving honorably in the armed forces of the United States of America, and that I believe in God. I further give authority to the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States to verify my entitlement to membership.

So, why is it that the VFW requires belief in God - in order to belong to their organization????

I'm sure they're a private organization, so I'm not questioning their right to require this. But I do stronly question the logic in effectively saying that the only 'good' veteran - is a 'religious' veteran.

:confused:

[Javaman]

Oddly, none of these organizations care which god you believe in either... just "God". They don't care if two members have diametrically opposed beliefs as long as they have one :rolleyes:

BTW, I recently joined a fraternal organization (long story - not interesting, though) and I had to swear that I believed in a "supreme being." What's that all about? I just decided that there's someone/something on the planet (or elsewhere) that's is supremely good at something in particular and ascribed no supernatural claims to "supreme being." Is that kosher?

[Shake]

Originally posted by Tickfast
...
Well, we did shake chicken bones at a missile to fix a problem in communicating with some electronics...worked fine after the ceremony. Well, as a former avionics technician, I must say that it sounds like FM*. We'd have equipment come in written up for this or that failure, duplicate it once in a test, swap some parts out to no avail, then put it back together again, and then it starts working again! As the crusty, old civilian on swing shift used to say, "FM! Send it out!" :D He also used to say, "My guarantee is good until power is applied."

*FM = fucking magic

Got some humorous maintenance write-ups which I could share.

[Gawen]

US Navy, 73-76. Viet Nam 74-75. Helo crewman. Atheist all the way. But my dogtags say Presby...cause they couldn't say 'nothing'....or so they told me.

[Obey_Matthew_6_6]

Originally posted by Rooster_Ties
So, why is it that the VFW requires belief in God - in order to belong to their organization????

I'm sure they're a private organization, so I'm not questioning their right to require this. But I do stronly question the logic in effectively saying that the only 'good' veteran - is a 'religious' veteran.

:confused:

Considering they're chartered by Congress, they shouldn't have the right to discriminate. But since they demand belief in a lie, I don't have any problem with giving a lie about belief. (Cheap beer :D is another incentive to ignore the gawd-belief requirement).

Those who served in Berlin any time from WW-II to the end of the Cold War are eligible to join (Army of Occupation and all that..).

Me? Two tours in Germany, White House duty, and arms control (nuclear/chemical). As a colleague once told his son, "I'm saving the world". :cool: Retired now, but still serving (and saving).

Seems to me we're more patriotic because we don't put subservience to myth before loyalty to country.

[McD]

my dogtags say Presby...cause they couldn't say 'nothing'....or so they told me.

By the time I joined in 1987, you could have "no pref" on your dogtags. However, what this means is that if you die, you will get a generic Christian burial. I later had some made for about $5 that said "atheist" and I wore them proudly, even after I got out, but I lost them somewhere. I have been thinking about getting another set made.

From what I hear (and it may or may not be true) you can have "none" or "no religion" put on them now.

Bremerton Atheist Club (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BremertonAtheistClub/)

[McNamara]

jjbettis posted a link to the current Navy regs concerning dog tags (http://buperscd.technology.navy.mil/bup_updt/508/milpers/1000-070.htm) in the "Atheist Dog Tags" thread in the Secular Lifestyle forum, and they allow anything to be printed on the line for religion - you can even leave it blank.

[ShadowF0x]

I am glad to hear about atheists in our armed forces actually speaking up for what they believe. I'll tell you right now that I am not in the military(I am starting in a ROTC program, but this is a far cry from what you guys do). I believe that an atheist in the military is a patriot in the most extreme sense... because they are putting their lives on the line for just their country(no god) without any hope of reward if they die(there is no heaven nor hell).... they are risking everything(their single life.. and how it will effect those close to them) to protect the rights and freedoms of the people of this nation. Even if those people are ignorant evangelistic fools who try to rob these men/women of their patriotism.

For this they have my total respect. :notworthy

[McNamara]

I thank you for that, sir. Good luck in ROTC.

[ShadowF0x]

I can't believe I didn't remember that my uncle served in Vietnam as a marine. He is an atheist as well, although I doubt he would have any interest in joining any kind of organization. I don't even think he is in the VFW, but I could be wrong.

He rarely talks about his military expierence(on a personal level but he sure likes to talk about military history), but I remember my Grandmother saying he served two tours in the jungles of vietnam & cambodia so thats most likely why.

He is also one of the smartest human beings I have ever met in my life.

[xsquid]

US Navy, 1970-93, 4 ships (incl. 2 carriers), several awards, and during my final deployment took part in a strike on Iraq. However, the only time I was actually shot at was in a tavern in Greece, and I don't even think he'd chosen me...he just had a gun and was ready to shoot at anybody.

Had "NO PREF" stamped on my dogtags from the start. Changed it to "NONE" years later, after I found out I could ('88, I think).

In my experience, no one ever invoked God out loud unless he got into legal trouble. Saw that happen twice, but in both cases the guy got brig time anyway, and one got a Bad Conduct Discharge. People don't realize that God has no legal standing in US courts, and even less in US courts-martial.

In my view, I served to protect the rights of even those who disagree with me, and I damn sure won't give up such rights for myself. My old Chief scared me more than any God could!

[The Admiral]

After scanning most of this thread I guess I'm just about the oldest respondent. I joined the Navy on my 17th birthday, 8-3-43. Actually sworn in 8-5-43. Navy not to efficient. By December '43 I was on a destroyer in the south Pacific. I was an Atheist, always had been, born one you know, and still am. I joined the VFW shortly after discharge. I can't recall whether or not they asked about my religion or lack thereof. I never renewed my membership after that first year. Had nothing to do with religion. I just decided that I had better things to do than sit around in a smoky room drinking beer and telling war stories. I have nothing against beer you understand. Cheers, and keep up the lack of faith.

The Admiral

[AdamWho]

Yes! I attest by forwarding this application that I am a citizen of the United States and I have checked the membership eligibility requirements for the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States and find that I am eligible for membership in the VFW and that I have never been discharged under other than honorable conditions or I am still serving honorably in the armed forces of the United States of America. I further give authority to the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States to verify my entitlement to membership.

There is no mention of god in this Attestation and looking at the link to the eligibilty requirements I find NO MENTION OF GOD anywhere.

The person making the claim that belief in god is required might be: 1. Mistaken 2. Lying

Eitherway, it is pretty clear that the VFW is a conservative organization and is probably full of god fearing people, since religious people make up the bulk of military personel.

veteran and a atheist.

[gravitybow]

AdamWho posts
The person making the claim that belief in god is required might be: 1. Mistaken 2. Lying
There are other possibilities. Take a look.

If I link to the membership application by visiting the VFW website, I get www.vfw.org/mbrship/MailMemberApp.pdf: (https://www.vfw.org/mbrship/MailMemberApp.pdf)

Yes! I attest by forwarding this application that I am a
citizen of the United States and I have checked the
membership eligibility requirements for the Veterans of
Foreign Wars of the United States and find that I am
eligible for membership in the VFW and that I have never
been discharged under other than honorable conditions or I
am still serving honorably in the armed forces of the United
States of America. I further give authority to the Veterans
of Foreign Wars of the United States to verify my
entitlement to membership.

But I can also retrieve www.vfw.org/resources/misc/VFW_MailInMemApp.pdf (https://www.vfw.org/resources/misc/VFW_MailInMemApp.pdf) from google:

I attest that I am a citizen of the United States, that my US Military Service was honorable, that I have never subsequently been discharged under other than honorable conditions, and that I believe in God. I also certify that (1) I am entitled to a campaign ribbon or medal authorized by the US Government based on my overseas service or; (2) I have served overseas in Korea. I further give authority to the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States to verify honorable overseas service entitling me to
membership.

Both forms appear valid and are from www.vfw.org . The first membership form is the one that links directly from the official site. But the second has not been deleted and still links as a valid form, ready to be downloaded and used.

Next, enter google with "veterans of foreign wars" membership "believe in god" and you'll find many posts that have believe in God on their membership forms. And these are only the posts that have a web presence.

So, here are other possibilities:
3. The effort to change the requirements has begun working! The national VFW has altered its form and its posts will follow suit sometime in the (near) future.

4. The national VFW maintains two forms and a post can use either.

5. Posts have been told to change and refuse.

6. The change at the website is a ruse to mollify nonbelievers: You don't have to believe in God to join the national VFW, but participation at individual posts requires it.

Some change has appeared at the VFW website on the membership form. If genuine, the national VFW should insist that all posts honor the change, eliminate their outdated "believe in God" forms, and update their websites. That should be the focus.

-gravitybow-
Air Force veteran

[AdamWho]

gravitybow
I am glad to see that there are more alternatives than I previously suggested. The VFW seems to making at least a cosmetic effort and the OP wasn't just alarmist.

[crazyfingers]

Originally posted by AdamWho
gravitybow
I am glad to see that there are more alternatives than I previously suggested. The VFW seems to making at least a cosmetic effort and the OP wasn't just alarmist.

Yes.. When Bill first started this topic I followed his links and the God requirement was right there. Now it's gone. It looks like they are changing their requirements.

[Dark Jedi]

Anyone notice they specifically left you the National Defense medal? I server during desert storm in a support role. We cut circles in the Gulf a few times, but never stayed long enough to qualify for the Quwaiti Liberation medal. In, fix a bird or two, then out again. Lather, rinse and repeat.

Looks like I wouldn't qualify anyway, due to these gaps.

[Radcliffe Emerson]

It's always been said there are no atheists in foxholes. Completely untrue. My uncle was in WWII, went through the Anzio invasion, was wounded and sent back to England, and once said he would not attend funerals because he saw his buddies stacked up like cordwood. He also never talked about the war except for that one comment.
He became an atheist during the war and still is today. He said there was no way any kind of god could be watching over the carnage he saw. So there was definitely one atheist at least in his foxhole!

[crazyfingers]

So Bill, any activity? Has the VFW agreed?

[AgentX]

Hi everybody,
I'm new here. I just wanted to say hello. I'm a long time lurker, but first time poster. I thought I should volunteer my services as an atheist currently in the military. I'm an Air Force officer, only commisioned last May.

I have a great dislike for the saying "God Bless America." I have always believed that America is great because of people acting to make it that way here and now and not some pie in the sky giving it's eternal blessing on our plot of land. That is why I chose to serve in the military. I want to do my part to make the country, and hopefully the world, a better place, free from religious or any other oppression.

It is very nice to meet you all and I hope there is a place for me here among the other freethinkers and disbelievers.

[Toto]

Welcome, AgentX! I think you'll fit in just fine here.

[LyricalReckoner]

Bill:

I'm a Viet Nam vet. In boot camp, I had to choose a religion. They didn't offer Agnostic as an option, so my dog tags say "No Pref."

That irritated me.

[Obey_Matthew_6_6]

Originally posted by gravitybow
There are other possibilities. Take a look.

Some change has appeared at the VFW website on the membership form. If genuine, the national VFW should insist that all posts honor the change, eliminate their outdated "believe in God" forms, and update their websites. That should be the focus.

-gravitybow-
Air Force veteran
The membership form in the Feb 2004 issue of VFW magazine STILL has the belief requirement. :mad: In fact, any printed form I've come across (whether paper or online magazine PDF) still has the requirement. The VFW has done a great job of removing it from plain sight on their website, but they're still hiding it in the sock drawer.

This has apparently satisfied the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, as the change is featured on their site. http://maaf.info The truth remains to be seen, if ALL the forms undergo revision. :confused:

[wstaylor]

Greetings,

Well, you can count me in as another atheist who served honorably, and meet their requirements they set forth as a veteran (except for the belief part) - Sgt., USAF 87-92.

Cheers,
Scott

[StandupHookupGo]

Don't know about the U.S. military, but when I first joined the Canadian army reserve as an infantryman back in the mid-80s, it was fairly common for new recruits to "solemnly affirm" loyalty to queen and country rather than make the standard religious oath on the bible. And I know I was not the only one in my unit to have "NRE" on my dogtags to indicate I had no religion.
Even after a tour of peacekeeping duty and the terrors of jumping out of a perfectly good aeroplane, I saw no reason to change my dogtags. A number of Canadian infantry and armoured units saw actual combat in the Balkans during the 90s (yes, real hostile fire aimed at and returned by Canadians), and I know for a fact they included troops whose dogtags also read "NRE".

[TySixtus]

I'm not a veteran yet (Aug of 05, and I'm counting down the days!)
I'm a Fire Controlman 2nd class, stationed on the USS Nimitz. I did 8 months in the Gulf during OIF, and it absolutely burned my ass having to hear evening prayer every night at 2155. My skipper also came over the 1MC and told us we were doing 'God's Work'. He was right. We were killing people; that really does sound like God's work! Zounds!
In case it wasn't clear, I'm an atheist. :)

Ty

[welchsm]

Current USAF Staff Sergeant (select). Raised Catholic, 3 Years God-Free. I've noticed a lot of push to be a theist in the Armed Forces, so a theistic requirement for the VFW does not surprise me in the least bit. No combat time yet, and probably won't ever see it. Bad Ticker you know. Plan to stay in as long as they'll let me, and will continue to fight theistic discrimination.

[Wild_T]

Airman First Class of just over two years, soon to be Senior Airman. Atheist since about a year before enlisting. So far I have yet to see any kind of deployments, shit, so far I haven't been able to escape Mississippi...

But I have the National Defense Service medal, so that makes me a veteran, right? Err... Right? :)



For those of you who don't know or get the joke, said ribbon is given to all active duty members when Congress deems appopriate, usually during a time of war. All of them, regardless of where they are. Not sure about reserves or guard, but I think they get it too. So I got a medal for "fighting the terrorists" while relaxing in Boloxi, Mississippi, going to classes and getting drunk. Take THAT, terrorists! :)

[freeman]

I've been an atheist for about 30 years. I served in the USAF from '82 to '86
and the reserves until '88 then the USCG from '90 to '94. I don't remember
ever meeting another non believer in that time. I've always believed that you
had to serve in a combat zone overseas to be in the VFW. My wife was in the
first gulf war and she got a membership application in the mail but never filled
it out.

[StrictSeparationist]

Moved to PA&SA from CSS given that, to my knowledge, VFW isn't officially connected with the U.S. government.

[pangloss]

I never saw combat - but unlike Dan Quayle and Bob Dornan, I was in a combat unit. Airborne Battalion Combat Team, stationed in Italy, part of a NATO rapid deployment force.

Became an atheist at age 20, 2nd year in service, though I was basically agnostic when I joined, had "NO PREF" on my dog tags. I knew one avowed atheist - who had "ATHEIST" on his dog tags, and in fact most of the people I knew were closer to being agnostics/atheists than anything else. We certainly had our bible-thumpers, but they were few and far between. I think part of the issue might have been that my unit for some reason had relatively few people from the south.

So, I can't join VFW, but I find it offensive that they would exclude a veteran for not being a Jebus-freak...

[crazyfingers]

Looks like there was success!

The most recent Humanist Network News just had the following story:

VFW drops religious test

.....


The Veterans of Foreign Wars has now published a new, nonsectarian membership application that includes none of the religious requirements of their previous application. See their new application on the VFW website.

...



The article attributes the success to the The American Humanist Association, Military Association of Atheists and Other Freethinkers, and the Secular Coalition for America.

Newsletter (http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews/index.html?id=134&lid=785#n4)

[Shake]

There is now a MAAF forum (http://maaf.info/foxhole/index.php) to which the Administrator, Lady Arwyn, has invited me and some others from here. It's just in its infancy, but it's for people like us.

[Shake]

Oops! Just realized today after looking at this forum that there is already a thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=83007) alerting everyone to the MAAF forum mentioned in my previous post.

[Ipecac]

jjbettis posted a link to the current Navy regs concerning dog tags (http://buperscd.technology.navy.mil/bup_updt/508/milpers/1000-070.htm) in the "Atheist Dog Tags" thread in the Secular Lifestyle forum, and they allow anything to be printed on the line for religion - you can even leave it blank.

My dog tags say atheist. The admin who took down my preference asked me, "Do you know what this means?" I replied, "yes, of course". And she asked me again, "Are you sure?"

That was it, I got my dog tags.

If anyone denies you, then they don't know what they're doing. Or maybe they do and they're breaking the rules deliberately.