Being an Ex-Muslim atheist

[Roland98]

I've merged threads regarding ex-Muslim atheists. Please see below for the OP.

-Roland98
Secular Lifestyle Moderator

[Athius]

I just wanted to share something about my life with you guys that I'm sure you don't hear much about, as they are hardly ever any ex-muslim Atheists in the world.

You see I was born and raised in Iran, a country where Islam = government = law = life. If you're a theist but not a muslim you're very much looked down upon and are not accepted into society as well as everyone else. If you're an atheist and the government finds out, you're automatically jailed for it. In the first years of the revolution the government even executed many free thinkers in order to safe guard the future of Iran for the believers.

But anyway, fortunately we have come to the US and are currently living here in peace, but it's still very hard for me to be an open atheist. First of all except my parents and brother none of my relatives know about it, because if they find out they will be very upset with me and probably never want to see me again (especially the ones back in Iran).

Back in high school I told one of the Muslims in our school that I was an Atheist when the topic was brought up, and soon a year later, every Muslim kid in our school knew about it and kept their distance from me. Islam is very intolerant about this matter, and it is a huge sin that is not forgivable by Muslims.

Now that I'm in college I joined the Atheist and Agnostic organization of our school, and all of the sudden one night my mom calls me to the dinner table saying that we need to have a talk. I see that my mom, my dad, and my brother are all sitting down and it is apparent they've prepared a long coversation about all this. They keep telling me I'm ruining my future by doing this, that I will lose all my connection in Iran if I continue in this path, and that I'm just being a dumb ass for being open about it. My mom told me this exact sentence "If you want to be a dumb ass, just keep it to yourself, you don't need to expose it to the whole world".

Anyway my point is, I'm not at all comfortable with being an Atheist in my family, and I'm constantly in fear of what might happen to me if I go back to my country for a visit.

Do you guys think I should continue to be open about my beliefs or as my parents say "keep it to myself" and never tell anyone?

[A Pumpkin Drifter]

I don't have experience on these matters but maybe you don't have to be open, but just stand your ground. Whenever the subject comes along be honest and open. Again, I don't have much experience in dealing with these matters so hopefully some other Infidels will come along and give you a say.

[Enai]

Hello Athius,

I don't know what to tell you to do. Just look at it this way: Is being honest about your opinions to others (your family, in this case) more important to you than being well liked? Then you should continue to tell them what you really think. With time, maybe they'll accept it and maybe, they can even respect you for your honesty. If, on the other hand, being well liked and accepted is more important to you, then lie to them. I don't know about you, but I'd expect your self-respect to suffer in this case.

I know a man of an atheist iranian family. He told me how much they had to lie and pretend in order to survive in Iran, it even went to the point of trying to have him circumcised (He panicked to the point where his heart stopped. The circumcision was then cancelled.). If you want me to, I can try to establish a contact between him and you. Maybe he's got some advice. Just drop me a PM or reply to this thread.

Enai

[Muad'Dib]

Hi Athius,

I'm sorry to hear about your situation, it doesn't sound like a pleasant one.

Two questions:

Is it being an atheist that your family thinks will ruin your future, or being an outspoken atheist? In other words, is it your belief that they object to, or the fact that you display your belief?

How likely is it that word of your outspoken atheism will reach your relatives in Iran? How would that news travel there? Your family in the States seems to have been willing to keep your secret so far.

[Carrie]

Lots of people are private about religion, in America at least. My parents and other certain relatives know I'm an Atheist, but there are others that don't know, and everyone knows not to tell them. My grandparents are fundamentalist Christains (like I used to be) and I don't want them to know that I don't believe anymore. They wouldn't reject me, but that side of the family would gossip about me, and lecture me, and worry, and in a way look down on me.

I think it's cool that you joined the Atheist group in your high school. I mean, you might like hanging out with other Atheists more than with the Muslims in your school, so if they rejected you, at least you fit in somewhere. I live in a small town and there are no Atheist groups. Most people are Christians, so I don't exactly fit in. You're lucky you found people who believe like you do.

But no, the whole world does not need to know you are an Atheist. I'll only tell people that I think will accept me as I am.
I have to actually fake it when I go see my grandparents. They'll say a prayer at dinner and I pretend to pray. My grandpa will talk to me about God and I'll keep up the conversation as though I agree with him. My parents hear this and they just keep quiet. They haven't outed me, thank goodness.

So when you go back to Iran, you obviously need to make sure this info about you being an Atheist does not get out. If you can't be certain it will be kept a secret, you might not want to go. Are you an American citizen? At least if you are, you can't be jailed right?

It must be hard to not be totally accepted by people of your own culture though huh? It's easier here in the U.S. at least, but you're not going to fit in with other Muslims. And that sucks. It sucks for me that I don't fit in with the majority of Americans, all the Christians around me, because it's hard to find friends that are like me. But it's okay. I don't want to fit in if it means I have to believe in some made up Jesus guy. I just have to look harder for people I'll fit in with, and I have to learn to be okay with being different. I'm getting more comfortable with being an Atheist. I've only been one for 9 months though.

[Claudia]

No, you are not the only ex-Muslim atheist. i know several of them living in Morocco (and unrelated to each other.
But I cannot counsel you on your choice, iran beint a theocracy.

[Proxima Centauri]

Originally posted by Athius
[B If you're an atheist and the government finds out, you're automatically jailed for it. In the first years of the revolution the government even executed many free thinkers in order to safe guard the future of Iran for the believers.

But anyway, fortunately we have come to the US and are currently living here in peace, but it's still very hard for me to be an open atheist. First of all except my parents and brother none of my relatives know about it, because if they find out they will be very upset with me and probably never want to see me again (especially the ones back in Iran).

Now that I'm in college I joined the Atheist and Agnostic organization of our school, and all of the sudden one night my mom calls me to the dinner table saying that we need to have a talk.Anyway my point is, I'm not at all comfortable with being an Atheist in my family, and I'm constantly in fear of what might happen to me if I go back to my country for a visit.

Do you guys think I should continue to be open about my beliefs or as my parents say "keep it to myself" and never tell anyone? [/B]
Looks like you have to stay out of Iran. If you possibly can stick with the atheist and agnostic society. You really need to meet other people who agree with you and to make friends with them.

[Athius]

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions, I really appreciate them.

Originally posted by Enai
Hello Athius,

I don't know what to tell you to do. Just look at it this way: Is being honest about your opinions to others (your family, in this case) more important to you than being well liked? Then you should continue to tell them what you really think. With time, maybe they'll accept it and maybe, they can even respect you for your honesty. If, on the other hand, being well liked and accepted is more important to you, then lie to them. I don't know about you, but I'd expect your self-respect to suffer in this case.

I know a man of an atheist iranian family. He told me how much they had to lie and pretend in order to survive in Iran, it even went to the point of trying to have him circumcised (He panicked to the point where his heart stopped. The circumcision was then cancelled.). If you want me to, I can try to establish a contact between him and you. Maybe he's got some advice. Just drop me a PM or reply to this thread.

Enai

Ye that'd be great. If you can please PM me and send me his email or screen name or something. If you only have the phone number then I don't really want it as I don't want to call someone I don't even know.

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
Hi Athius,

I'm sorry to hear about your situation, it doesn't sound like a pleasant one.

Two questions:

Is it being an atheist that your family thinks will ruin your future, or being an outspoken atheist? In other words, is it your belief that they object to, or the fact that you display your belief?

How likely is it that word of your outspoken atheism will reach your relatives in Iran? How would that news travel there? Your family in the States seems to have been willing to keep your secret so far.

My family (most my mom and brother) think I'm ruining my future because I'm being an outspoken Atheist, although they still definately don't like the fact that I'm Atheist, it's being outspoken about it that worries them most.

It is almost 100% likely that if one relative finds out, the rest will find out through word of the mouth, as to them this is such a big deal. My family has kept my secret so far because they always tell me it's a disgrace.

My mom for example always say that this country (USA) has one very bad thing about it and that is that it lets all the disgraces of society to do whatever they want, and then she gives examples like Atheists, gays, etc. which I always get very offended by.

In response to Carrie:

Thanks for your post. Well I have tried to keep it a secret from my family until now, but sometimes I become so angry of the fact that I have to do this. I tell myself "WTF, they're the one that have to keep their idiotic beliefs a secret, I have to be proud that I'm not one of them", but this messed up world doesn't work that way. It all comes down to the question of personal pride and the worth you put on your beliefs vs. your place/position/rank/honor/reputaion in society.

Originally posted by B.Shack
Looks like you have to stay out of Iran. If you possibly can stick with the atheist and agnostic society. You really need to meet other people who agree with you and to make friends with them.

Yes that's what I'm doing now. Most of my close friends in college are from the Atheist & Agnostic Organization that I joined.

[Radcliffe Emerson]

Hello. I haven't posted on here in a long time, because I have a very difficult time responding to Christian believers about their beliefs without being insulting to them.
I just wanted to tell you I know it's tough to be a non-believer, and it's tough even here in the US. I've gotten flak from people about my lack of belief, and I especially received flak over the spring/summer with my views about our government raping Iraq for its oil.
But so far, noone has tried to physically harm me or anything.
From what I've read and heard about Iran, I'm very glad you were able to get out of there. From my understanding, if it had been found out you were a nonbeliever, you would have been killed.
Good luck to you here in the US.

[DMB]

Dear Athius,

It must be tough feeling so isolated. Please have a look at this website (http://www.secularislam.org/) for some moral support and to make contact with other former muslims. I would also recommend a recent book, Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1591020689/qid%3D1064317927/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-3967068-1976822).

You might also find this site (http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/) helpful.

By all means PM me if you want further discussion.

[Athius]

Originally posted by DMB
Dear Athius,

It must be tough feeling so isolated. Please have a look at this website (http://www.secularislam.org/) for some moral support and to make contact with other former muslims. I would also recommend a recent book, Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1591020689/qid%3D1064317927/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-3967068-1976822).

You might also find this site (http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/) helpful.

By all means PM me if you want further discussion.

Those sites look to be very interesting. I'll definately check them out during the weekend when I have time. Also I had heard about the book you mentioned and another one (I believe it was called "Why I left Islam" or something. They showed it on TV and it seemed to be a very nice book. I'll definately look into that as well. Thanks a lot for your info.

[demoninho]

Originally posted by DMB
You might also find this site (http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/) helpful.

:confused: Read the following article from the link you provided here (http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/100percentmoonshinethatis.htm)

Dear readers, I apologize. I can no longer continue with this fraud that has become my website. There is no evidence for disbelief in any form- and yet- I hid this from you even though I doubted so much that unbelief was true. Please forgive me! Us kufar and zanadiq are craven beasts, who have not a shred of evidence to support us. For so long we have tried to fool others, by saying that we had found "There is no God" written in a spider's web, or found Nietzsche's face in a tortilla. No longer. We forgot that there was such a thing as "the Truth." Allah has made us remember, though we were adverse. Allah in his mercy would not let us deceive mankind any longer, which is why I am to introduce a passage which, to say the least, has "rocked my world." Allah takes his servants out of darkness and into light- I was browsing along, when what should suddenly appear but the Truth and Meaning of Life that I had long been awaiting. The Entire Universe testifies to the Truth of the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad: http://www.bensys.mcmail.com/Islam.htm :confused:

Or is he just being really ironic?

[Rhea]

Originally posted by Athius
My mom for example always say that this country (USA) has one very bad thing about it and that is that it lets all the disgraces of society to do whatever they want, and then she gives examples like Atheists, gays, etc. which I always get very offended by.



Your mom needs to realize a couple of things.
1. Most fundamentalist Christians think that being a Muslim is a disgrace.
2. She is in a country that is dominated by Christians.
3. They let her live in peace.
4. BECAUSE the country lets everyone do what they want.
5. If she objects to the gays and atheists, she should realize that people will object to her.
6. Hello?



Maybe a little American History will make this more clear:

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves, and, under a just God, cannot long retain it." -- Abraham Lincoln

[callmejay]

Athius:

Whatever you decide to do, it's important for you to remember that not believing in God isn't something you are doing wrong -- you have no choice about it. Your parents and relatives being upset about it is their fault, not yours. Unfortunately, that won't necessarily stop them from making your life miserable. Just remember it's not your fault; it's theirs.

[DMB]

demoninho: I think he's taking the piss.

[Proxima Centauri]

There are few people who understand the culture of Arab and other Eastern extended families and also can give secular advice. I will try though my understanding is partial and I may be wrong in parts.
You absolutely must refuse to go to Iran. You would be in danger there. You need some excuse ready. You must stay in America to study, to prepare for exams, to prepare for next term's/year's work to look after the family house/family business etc.
When you qualify look for a well paid job or a really good start of a carreer well away from where your family live. That way you have an excuse not to live in the extended family. Explain to your family that you can 't turn up this wonderful opportunity which you happened to find out about. Prejudice against Iranians is so bad you mighten't get another opportunity that is so good.
Act like a dutiful Arab son and send a reasonable sum of money back to your family regularly so they respect you and value you.
Be ready to resist pressure or temptation to accept an arranged marriage to a Moslem girl. Resist temptation even if she is very attractive. There are two reasons for this. 1.She could be devastated if she finds out she is married to an atheist. If you like her protect her from this devastation. 2.If you accept such a marriage you will never be free from religious pressure from your family and your wife's family.
Don't lie about your atheism but don't talk about it unecessarily. That adds to the difficulties.

[demoninho]

Originally posted by DMB
demoninho: I think he's taking the piss.

Sort hard to tell from that one article but I guess since he left the other stuff that you're right.

[lpetrich]

demoninho, the Freethought Mecca site contains a lot of satire. One of my favorites in it is a picture of Ariel Sharon planting a small tree, and a caption stating that it's a Gharqad tree being planted in anticipation of:

Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:

Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

[Athius]

Originally posted by B.Shack
There are few people who understand the culture of Arab and other Eastern extended families and also can give secular advice. I will try though my understanding is partial and I may be wrong in parts.
You absolutely must refuse to go to Iran. You would be in danger there. You need some excuse ready. You must stay in America to study, to prepare for exams, to prepare for next term's/year's work to look after the family house/family business etc.
When you qualify look for a well paid job or a really good start of a carreer well away from where your family live. That way you have an excuse not to live in the extended family. Explain to your family that you can 't turn up this wonderful opportunity which you happened to find out about. Prejudice against Iranians is so bad you mighten't get another opportunity that is so good.
Act like a dutiful Arab son and send a reasonable sum of money back to your family regularly so they respect you and value you.
Be ready to resist pressure or temptation to accept an arranged marriage to a Moslem girl. Resist temptation even if she is very attractive. There are two reasons for this. 1.She could be devastated if she finds out she is married to an atheist. If you like her protect her from this devastation. 2.If you accept such a marriage you will never be free from religious pressure from your family and your wife's family.
Don't lie about your atheism but don't talk about it unecessarily. That adds to the difficulties.

B.Shack, thank you very much for taking time and writing that. I would like to point out that Iranians are not Arabs, they are Persians. Unfortunately that's a common misconception, but Persians and Arabs were actually arch enemies if you look back in history. The two cultures are very different. The extended family thing that you talked about is mostly visible in the Arab culture and rather rare in Persian culture.

I don't really want to leave my family, as that'd mean I become even more lonely. My family although not supportive of me when it comes to my belief, is actually very supportive in other aspects of my life and I owe them for that.

I will not however let my family decide my destiny in areas like marriage, work, etc. Marriage is especially something that in eastern cultures is more a pre-arranged thing rather than the western style of "go find true love". Not only will I never marry a Muslim girl, I will never marry a theist girl in general.

I will definately consider that last thing you said, although it won't be easy for me, as I want to be as open and free as anyone else in expressin my beliefs.

[never been there]

Athius, I would worry about you if you tried to have your cake and eat it too - be publically (even, or especially within your college) atheist and still try to visit Iran.

Maybe I'm out of date on things, but in my grad school days (1988-92) I would never introduce one Iranian friend to another. I had to switch students into other sections of a course to keep them away from suspected informers. Given that there are plenty of religious Iranians around, you would be pushing your luck in assuming that your name wouldn't be put on the "naughty" list.

So you have a choice; I don't envy you.

[Speedy-Lube]

Thank you for sharing that! You are truly brave. Don't worry though, in this country, the worst that can really happen to you is you get mean stares. And most poeple here are too lazy to even do that!

[pinkorag]

Athius, I definitely feel for your precarious position. I myself am an Athiest Iranian. I was actually born in Iran and moved to the US when I was about 3.

However, I definitely I am lucky in the sense that my family is generally very liberal. In my parent's generation the vast majority of people aren't very religious and there a fair amount of atheists and agnostics(including my father). But, one thing I've definitely noticed among the atheists and agnostics is they often pay lip service to the older people's religious beliefs.

My mother has told me that she is fine with being an atheist (she herself is one of those types that believes in God but doesn't go much farther than that). But when it comes to my grandparents she has definitely made it clear that I cannot let them know in any way that I am an Atheist.

Your family may be wanting to keep quiet about your Atheism as to upset the rest of the family. It's a tough decision to make. I myself have gone back to Iran and have definitely shut up about my Atheism there.

If you have definite reservations about going to Iran, I'd lean towards not going. Imagine being in an environment where you feel very uneasy all the time and fear for your life. You can always make up some excuse for not going there whenever the topic arises. This is what my dad does whenever his in-laws say they want to see him. He always makes up an excuse about how he needs to do lots of work and such. He is just too paranoid about something happening and can't deal with that kind of situation where anything can happen. Right now I'm 16 and I have decided I am definitely not going to Iran anytime soon. At this age I am definitely in a more dangerous position to go there. And if you are college-aged I'd definitely advise against going there anytime soon. There is just too much shit that can happen to someone your age in Iran.

If you make the decision to not go to Iran and your parents oppose you, you must remain firm. It's better to disobey your parent's wishes than go to a place where you'll be in a constant state of fear.

[Jobar]

Athius, pinkorag- I want you both to know that the sort of intellectual and moral bravery you show is great and noble. You are willing to speak truth as you see it, despite the overwhelming pressures your families and faith exert to keep you from speaking it.

I hope you can both find friends and loves who are able to appreciate that bravery, that nobility; and I hope that the despicable prejudices you face now, and will face, don't silence you.

It's ones like you that give me hope for the world.

I'm located far away from either of you, and I'm as old as your fathers are; still I hope that you keep coming to Internet Infidels, and if there's anything we here can do for you let us know.

[cetic]

I think you should keep low profile, because if the word gets to your friends and family in Iran, and you could end up with lots of troubles, if you decide to go there. If you think that knowledge of your atheism is more or less spread, avoid going there. Anyway, you should try to develop skill to persuade anyone questioning you that you are actually good muslim that only strayed from the path, but is now back to true faith. I know that this may seem disguisting or degrading, but it is sometimes necessary to save yourselves from trouble sometimes.

As far as I know, punishment for your action, as written in Qu'ran, is death. That makes you good target for any radical Muslim who knows about your standpoint to make your life miserable (at least).

As an example, I have cousin living in Sarajevo, and he has some good Muslim childhood friends there, which are pretty much non-believers as he is. He told me that they had some very bad encounters with radical Muslims after they publicly stated their opinion. That included some beatings and late night "re-education" - not very pleasant things to experience for sure. Fortunately, that was before 9/11 (now radicals are in hiding or at least not so open with their actions), so the air much more breathable in Sarajevo, but one can imagine something similar to what these guys experienced could happen to you.