JamesKrieger
October 10, 2003, 06:53 AM
Hi, everyone,
I received the following email forward from a Christian friend a few weeks ago:
In a recent letter to the editor
Samuel Thompson wrote: I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to
sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I don't agree with
Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher
taught his theory of evolution. Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness
will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a
football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there
reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe
in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans
going home from the game. "But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue.
Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on
Christian principles! And we are in the Bible Belt. According to our very
own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than
200-to-1. So what would you expect ... Somebody chanting Hare Krishna?
If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish
prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a
Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to
hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother
me one bit. When in Rome..."
But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them? Nobody
is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection
plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a
Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession
stand. Call your lawyer.
Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell
thousands what they can and cannot do.
I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the
world's foundations. Christians are just sick and tired of turning the
other cheek while our courts STRIP US OF ALL OUR RIGHTS.
Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before
we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a
handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God,
help us!!! And if that last sentence offends you, well...just sue me. The
silent majority has been SILENT too long...it's time we let that one or two
who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what
they want...it is time the majority rules! It's time we tell them, you
don't have to pray...you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance, you
don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is
your right, and we will honor your right...but by golly you are no longer
going to take our rights away ...we are fighting back and we WILL WIN!!!
After all, the God you have the right to denounce is on our side! God bless
us, one and all, especially those who denounce Him...God bless America,
despite all her faults she is still the greatest nation of all! God bless
our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship
God.
May 2003 and the years that follow, be the years the silent majority are
heard! May we put God back as the foundation of our families and our
institutions. If you agree just say Amen!
Keep looking up! In God WE Trust! If you agree with this, then do not be
ashamed and please pass it on.
If not, hey just delete it...that is your right!
Here was my response:
would like to offer a polite disagreement with some comments made in
Samuel Thompson's letter to the editor. Samuel is not correct about some
aspects in regards to the law and some other conceptions that he has
regarding prayer in school.
>Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness
> will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a
> football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there
> reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they
believe
> in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans
> going home from the game.
Mr. Thompson is most likely referring to a 6-3 decision by the Supreme Court
in 2000 in a case of a Texas school, where student-led prayer was not
allowed over the public broadcast system at a public high school football
game. This was an appropriate decision by the court, because the
student-led prayer over the public broadcast system represented a violation
of the establishment clause of the first amendment of the Constitution. The
decision had nothing to do with the fact that some people were offended.
The use of a public school broadcast system, funded by government tax
dollars, for any act of religious worship, in the presence of essentially a
captive audience, is clearly a first amendment violation. One might argue
that the audience isn't "captive." However, even this is irrelevant.
Justice Stevens wrote in the court decision, "Even if we regard every high
school student's decision to attend a home football game as purely
voluntary, we are nevertheless persuaded that the delivery of a pregame
prayer has the improper effect of coercing those present to participate in
an act of religious worship." Now, one might argue that the pregame prayer
is not an act of coercion. Thompson argues, "Just humor us for 30 seconds.
If that's asking too much, bring Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the
bathroom. Visit the concession stand." However, the pregame prayer, when
done over a public loudspeaker, puts the non-Christian in a difficult
position. The non-Christian has two choices. First, he/she can refuse to
participate as Thompson suggests. However, to not participate when everyone
else is will result in the individual revealing his/her non-Christian
beliefs to everyone else, which he/she shouldn't have to do. This puts the
individual in a potential situation where they may be ostracized or
harrassed (which has happened before) since he/she doesn't believe as
everyone else does. The second choice is to participate and "fake it." In
this case, the non-Christian must go against his/her conscience. Either
way, it is an act of coercion to participate in an act of worship, and is
thus a violation of the Establishment Clause since the government (the
public school) is involved.
>"But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue.
> Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on
> Christian principles!
This country is founded upon the Constitution of the United States, which is
a purely secular document which makes no reference to Christianity or any
other religion. While it is true that many of the individuals at the
Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia were Christians, this does not
make the Constitution founded on Christian principles. I have asked
Christians exactly what Christian principles the Constitution is based on
and I never get a straight answer. If one goes and reads the transcripts of
the debates during the Constitutional Convention, very few references to
Christianity are made. The secular nature of the Constitution is further
revealed by Article XI of the Treaty of Tripoli (8 Stat 154, Treaty Series
358) from 1796-1797, which, approved by the U.S. Senate and signed by
President John Adams, clearly stated:
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character or
enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, -- and as the
said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any
Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from
religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
existing between the two countries."
> If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish
> prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a
> Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to
> hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended.
There is a distinct difference between these countries and our country.
These countries do not have a constitution with an amendment that basically
requires church and state to be separate. Again, the Supreme Court decision
has nothing to do with whether someone was offended or not. It has to do
with whether or not student-led prayer over a public school broadcast system
is Constitutional, and the court has ruled that it is not.
> I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the
> world's foundations. Christians are just sick and tired of turning the
> other cheek while our courts STRIP US OF ALL OUR RIGHTS.
Christians do not have any less rights than anyone else does. Not allowing
student-led prayer over a public broadcast system, to a captive audience, is
not stripping away rights of Christians. The students are still free to
pray of their own accord before, during, and after the game. The audience
is free to do these things as well. What is not allowed is the use of
public school grounds and a public broadcast system to broadcast these
prayers to everyone in the audience, or to lead the entire audience in a
prayer, which is a religious act of worship. No religious group, whether
Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc., is allowed to do this. Thus, the rights
of Christians are not being suppressed..
> Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray
before
> we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a
> handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.
Mr. Thompson has constructed a strawman. Lawyers are not telling Christians
to cease praying. Again, Christians are allowed to pray before, during, and
after school and school events, as long as it is not disruptive. What is
not allowed is the use of government-funded facilities and tools (like a
public broadcast system) to engage in religious acts of worship to
essentially captive audiences. Thus, a teacher cannot lead a class in
prayer. A student cannot lead an entire class in prayer during class.
Prayers cannot be said over school loudspeakers during school events. All
of these cases basically represent GOVERNMENT-SPONSORED prayer, which is a
violation of the First Amendment of the Constitution. Otherwise, students
are free to pray in school whenever they like, and thus their rights have
NOT been taken away, and no one has told them to cease praying.
>God,
> help us!!! And if that last sentence offends you, well...just sue me.
The
> silent majority has been SILENT too long...it's time we let that one or
two
> who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what
> they want...it is time the majority rules!
Mr. Thompson does not realize that we live in a Republic, not a democracy.
A true democracy, where majority always rules, is one of the worst, most
tyrannical forms of government, because the majority can basically vote out
the rights of the minority. For example, if 51% of the country wanted to
vote the other 49% to a remote island, then it would happen. This is why
the Constitution exists...to protect the fundamental rights of the minority
from oppression by the majority. One of these rights, freedom from
government-sponsored religious coercion, is protected by the First
Amendment.
> don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is
> your right, and we will honor your right...but by golly you are no longer
> going to take our rights away
Again, no one has taken anybody's rights away. I am curious exactly what
rights others have, that Christians do NOT have.
I received the following email forward from a Christian friend a few weeks ago:
In a recent letter to the editor
Samuel Thompson wrote: I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to
sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I don't agree with
Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher
taught his theory of evolution. Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness
will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a
football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there
reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe
in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans
going home from the game. "But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue.
Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on
Christian principles! And we are in the Bible Belt. According to our very
own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than
200-to-1. So what would you expect ... Somebody chanting Hare Krishna?
If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish
prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a
Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to
hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother
me one bit. When in Rome..."
But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them? Nobody
is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection
plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a
Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession
stand. Call your lawyer.
Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell
thousands what they can and cannot do.
I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the
world's foundations. Christians are just sick and tired of turning the
other cheek while our courts STRIP US OF ALL OUR RIGHTS.
Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before
we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a
handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God,
help us!!! And if that last sentence offends you, well...just sue me. The
silent majority has been SILENT too long...it's time we let that one or two
who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what
they want...it is time the majority rules! It's time we tell them, you
don't have to pray...you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance, you
don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is
your right, and we will honor your right...but by golly you are no longer
going to take our rights away ...we are fighting back and we WILL WIN!!!
After all, the God you have the right to denounce is on our side! God bless
us, one and all, especially those who denounce Him...God bless America,
despite all her faults she is still the greatest nation of all! God bless
our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship
God.
May 2003 and the years that follow, be the years the silent majority are
heard! May we put God back as the foundation of our families and our
institutions. If you agree just say Amen!
Keep looking up! In God WE Trust! If you agree with this, then do not be
ashamed and please pass it on.
If not, hey just delete it...that is your right!
Here was my response:
would like to offer a polite disagreement with some comments made in
Samuel Thompson's letter to the editor. Samuel is not correct about some
aspects in regards to the law and some other conceptions that he has
regarding prayer in school.
>Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness
> will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a
> football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there
> reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they
believe
> in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans
> going home from the game.
Mr. Thompson is most likely referring to a 6-3 decision by the Supreme Court
in 2000 in a case of a Texas school, where student-led prayer was not
allowed over the public broadcast system at a public high school football
game. This was an appropriate decision by the court, because the
student-led prayer over the public broadcast system represented a violation
of the establishment clause of the first amendment of the Constitution. The
decision had nothing to do with the fact that some people were offended.
The use of a public school broadcast system, funded by government tax
dollars, for any act of religious worship, in the presence of essentially a
captive audience, is clearly a first amendment violation. One might argue
that the audience isn't "captive." However, even this is irrelevant.
Justice Stevens wrote in the court decision, "Even if we regard every high
school student's decision to attend a home football game as purely
voluntary, we are nevertheless persuaded that the delivery of a pregame
prayer has the improper effect of coercing those present to participate in
an act of religious worship." Now, one might argue that the pregame prayer
is not an act of coercion. Thompson argues, "Just humor us for 30 seconds.
If that's asking too much, bring Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the
bathroom. Visit the concession stand." However, the pregame prayer, when
done over a public loudspeaker, puts the non-Christian in a difficult
position. The non-Christian has two choices. First, he/she can refuse to
participate as Thompson suggests. However, to not participate when everyone
else is will result in the individual revealing his/her non-Christian
beliefs to everyone else, which he/she shouldn't have to do. This puts the
individual in a potential situation where they may be ostracized or
harrassed (which has happened before) since he/she doesn't believe as
everyone else does. The second choice is to participate and "fake it." In
this case, the non-Christian must go against his/her conscience. Either
way, it is an act of coercion to participate in an act of worship, and is
thus a violation of the Establishment Clause since the government (the
public school) is involved.
>"But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue.
> Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on
> Christian principles!
This country is founded upon the Constitution of the United States, which is
a purely secular document which makes no reference to Christianity or any
other religion. While it is true that many of the individuals at the
Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia were Christians, this does not
make the Constitution founded on Christian principles. I have asked
Christians exactly what Christian principles the Constitution is based on
and I never get a straight answer. If one goes and reads the transcripts of
the debates during the Constitutional Convention, very few references to
Christianity are made. The secular nature of the Constitution is further
revealed by Article XI of the Treaty of Tripoli (8 Stat 154, Treaty Series
358) from 1796-1797, which, approved by the U.S. Senate and signed by
President John Adams, clearly stated:
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character or
enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, -- and as the
said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any
Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from
religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
existing between the two countries."
> If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish
> prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a
> Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to
> hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended.
There is a distinct difference between these countries and our country.
These countries do not have a constitution with an amendment that basically
requires church and state to be separate. Again, the Supreme Court decision
has nothing to do with whether someone was offended or not. It has to do
with whether or not student-led prayer over a public school broadcast system
is Constitutional, and the court has ruled that it is not.
> I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the
> world's foundations. Christians are just sick and tired of turning the
> other cheek while our courts STRIP US OF ALL OUR RIGHTS.
Christians do not have any less rights than anyone else does. Not allowing
student-led prayer over a public broadcast system, to a captive audience, is
not stripping away rights of Christians. The students are still free to
pray of their own accord before, during, and after the game. The audience
is free to do these things as well. What is not allowed is the use of
public school grounds and a public broadcast system to broadcast these
prayers to everyone in the audience, or to lead the entire audience in a
prayer, which is a religious act of worship. No religious group, whether
Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc., is allowed to do this. Thus, the rights
of Christians are not being suppressed..
> Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray
before
> we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a
> handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.
Mr. Thompson has constructed a strawman. Lawyers are not telling Christians
to cease praying. Again, Christians are allowed to pray before, during, and
after school and school events, as long as it is not disruptive. What is
not allowed is the use of government-funded facilities and tools (like a
public broadcast system) to engage in religious acts of worship to
essentially captive audiences. Thus, a teacher cannot lead a class in
prayer. A student cannot lead an entire class in prayer during class.
Prayers cannot be said over school loudspeakers during school events. All
of these cases basically represent GOVERNMENT-SPONSORED prayer, which is a
violation of the First Amendment of the Constitution. Otherwise, students
are free to pray in school whenever they like, and thus their rights have
NOT been taken away, and no one has told them to cease praying.
>God,
> help us!!! And if that last sentence offends you, well...just sue me.
The
> silent majority has been SILENT too long...it's time we let that one or
two
> who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what
> they want...it is time the majority rules!
Mr. Thompson does not realize that we live in a Republic, not a democracy.
A true democracy, where majority always rules, is one of the worst, most
tyrannical forms of government, because the majority can basically vote out
the rights of the minority. For example, if 51% of the country wanted to
vote the other 49% to a remote island, then it would happen. This is why
the Constitution exists...to protect the fundamental rights of the minority
from oppression by the majority. One of these rights, freedom from
government-sponsored religious coercion, is protected by the First
Amendment.
> don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is
> your right, and we will honor your right...but by golly you are no longer
> going to take our rights away
Again, no one has taken anybody's rights away. I am curious exactly what
rights others have, that Christians do NOT have.