For Wiccans, Pagans, Magick practicioners, etc.

[Dominus Paradoxum]

Do you have any evidence that your rituals/spells/etc. work? I'm not being mean, I really want to know. Even anecdotal evidence would be welcome. Have you ever experienced a spell or prayer that worked? I'm really interested.

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Yes of course!
On Friday, being the night of the full moon, we held a rain ceremony and it poured on us.

Sorry, feeling a bit raw because the Wiccans in my neck of the woods were actually fully immersed in rain-making chants etc.
As if it wasn't evr going to rain.

No, seriously, it depends on your definition of ceremony, riual etc doesn't it?

When I need to bring my body down from an all-week high of furious concentration and just relax, I do a ritual which calms my cns down and allows me to relax.
That's a ritual which works, no question.

When I need to focus my mind on getting something done, such as a new enterprise, I might grind up some incense and burn it, light a few candles, get into lotus postion, and give myself a good talking to.It works.

But casuing someone to resemble an amphibian, or suddenly finding pots of money under my bed-you've got to be kidding.

I have a huge problem with pagans who think they can alter the way the universe works just by thinking at it.
Terri

[Supergirl]

Originally posted by Aquila ka Hecate
When I need to bring my body down from an all-week high of furious concentration and just relax, I do a ritual which calms my cns down and allows me to relax.
That's a ritual which works, no question.

When I need to focus my mind on getting something done, such as a new enterprise, I might grind up some incense and burn it, light a few candles, get into lotus postion, and give myself a good talking to.It works.

Hey, can I get a word in here too :D BTW, you said it beautifully.

I am also a secular pagan and magic & rituals works if you define it without any of the so-called supernatural phenomena.

My kid and I had an argument yesterday (why do 12 yr olds not only know everything, but also better?). I am planning to have a ritual tomorrow night in my garden. The objective? To relax, focus, makes us aware of our humaness and bring us closer. It always works.

Now, to get the goddess/ universe/ cosmos to bring rain, hell, I also want to see evidence/ proof/ validation! ;)

[Heathen Dawn]

I expect the answer from a true practitioner would be “it works for me”.

I think neopagan magick-makers have given up on real-world–changing spells, instead concentrating on smaller things. Such as, instead of a spell to make a thousand loaves out of four, they do things such as a spell to bring better luck during a job interview.

[brighid]

I am going to agree with Aquila.

Spells to "change" other people or events can't work, and from what I understand of the Wiccan Rede they should NOT be done.

Ritual/magick is about creating in your own life, or helping others (through positive influence) to achieve their own desires. Lighting candles, mixing herbs, and casting a circle will create no physical manifestation of dreams or desires unless the practioner works to that end. How could it? Ritual/magick can help one achieve the proper mind set to achieve those dreams by keeping one mindful of a task at hand.

Brighid

[starling]

Originally posted by Dominus Paradoxum
Do you have any evidence that your rituals/spells/etc. work? I'm not being mean, I really want to know. Even anecdotal evidence would be welcome. Have you ever experienced a spell or prayer that worked? I'm really interested.

How do you define ritual? I could, for example, devise a ritual to levitate a pencil. You must carefully stretch out your hand over the pencil, bring your fingers down to grip it, and move the hand vertically upward. Behold, the pencil will rise!

It's like Ozy said. (http://www.ozyandmillie.org/2001/om20011114.html) You'll get your wish if you wish for the right thing: one easily acquired or naturally proceeding. It's the magic that aspires to the impossible that I haven't seen evidence of. Many religions, especially the older ones like witchcraft, do not distinguish between wishing for things that will happen and wishing for things that won't happen, but should.


Starling

[Jet Grind]

Originally posted by Dominus Paradoxum
Do you have any evidence that your rituals/spells/etc. work? I'm not being mean, I really want to know. Even anecdotal evidence would be welcome. Have you ever experienced a spell or prayer that worked? I'm really interested.

This question would be better posted on a Wiccan/Neo-Pagan forum instead of here. The IIDB is primarily for atheists/agnostics, such as myself.

[Autonemesis]

I once told some occultists I knew that I had done a magick ritual, which had caused such-and-such effect, and they did not contradict me, or challenge me. They seemed to accept that the results I claimed were consistent with the ritual I said I performed, and the person that was affected.

Does that count? It seemed to count with the occultists.

[Calzaer]

With the people I do ritual with, if someone forgets to take their watch off before going into circle, or forgets to move a clock (analog or digital) out of the room first, when the ritual is done all the clocks that were in the circle display vastly different times compared to each other and the rest of the timepieces in the house. I was flabbergasted the one time it happened to me; at the end of a holiday ritual, a digital high-end wrist watch that loses +-15 seconds a month was suddenly 32 minutes faster than it was when I stepped into the circle.

Everything else I would talk about is pretty subjective, but that one sort of floored me.

Oh, and then there was the time my friends and I (Wicca: The Next Generation) screwed up and totally killed a natural spring out in the woods. It stopped flowing almost immediately, and never started up again. That was 2 years ago, and the spring today is as dry as a bone. Sure, it could have been a coincidence, but it's a pretty damn strange coincidence.

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by Jet Grind
This question would be better posted on a Wiccan/Neo-Pagan forum instead of here. The IIDB is primarily for atheists/agnostics, such as myself.

Yes, indeed. Here is a good neopagan forum (http://www.mysticwicks.com).

[Katarzyna]

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn
Such as, instead of a spell to make a thousand loaves out of four, they do things such as a spell to bring better luck during a job interview.

In which case, if they believe it, it might bring them confidence, which might help them in the job interview.

Of course, it won't work if you know it's just a game for boosting confidence. Sometimes I wish I was less skeptical--might be nice to get these benefits so easily.

[Infidelettante]

Originally posted by Jet Grind
This question would be better posted on a Wiccan/Neo-Pagan forum instead of here. The IIDB is primarily for atheists/agnostics, such as myself.

The subject of the OP qualifies as non-Abrahamic religion or philosophy. If you don't care to comment on this thread don't but don't tell us we can't freely use the only forum on IIDB that is completely open to us.:p

JT

[Infidelettante]

Let my start by explaining how I think magic works. It works by pattern and form not by cause and effect. IMO it is not possible to say ~I performed a work of magic and caused X~. It is possible to say ~I performed a work of magic and X happened~. Let me give an example. Some years ago I was unhappy at my job and began to open my self to a change.

My habit is to read the want ads everyday. One day I saw an ad for a job in my field and applied. I was not hired and was very disappointed as the job was at a hotel I would have loved to work at. Indoor pool and spa. Exercise room. Extended stay which means you get to know the guests on a personal level. But they chose someone else and I kept looking.

I spent several weeks composing a ritual to bring a new job my way and performed it four times in the month of March. By July of that year I was employed at hotel from which I fully intend to retire. That would be in about twelve years or so. I have been at that hotel three years this past July.

Where is the magic you ask? It is the very hotel I applied to the first time! Did magic do it? Maybe, maybe not. But be sure I don’t take any giant steps in life without a little magic to back me up. Can’t hurt.:D

JT

edited to say the guy who got the job the first time was fired over something related to a great deal of money. Magic? I hope not. But, I'm the one with the job.

[Karalora]

I have a huge problem with pagans who think they can alter the way the universe works just by thinking at it.

The Universe? Nah. The way we view the Universe? Absolutely. Anyone who reads Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels is already somewhat familiar with Wiccan magic--it's much closer to Granny Weatherwax's "headology" than to anything out of Dungeons & Dragons.

Once when I was really down on my luck, I performed a "quick cash" spell. The very next day, I was talking a walk through the neighborhood and I found $46 lying naked on the sidewalk--no wallet, no ID, just "finders keepers". I don't for a second believe that my spell "poofed" that money into existence so I would find it. I think, rather, that my spell made me more alert, so that I noticed the money when it was there to find.

[ShadowF0x]

What I hate about magic is that I can easily conjure up giant Fireballs, but everytime I try to identify my magic items I pass out for 24 hours.

Also I like to summon demons from other dementions to do my bidding......

[Supergirl]

Originally posted by ShadowF0x
What I hate about magic is that I can easily conjure up giant Fireballs, but everytime I try to identify my magic items I pass out for 24 hours.

Also I like to summon demons from other dementions to do my bidding......

What chemicals do you ingest before your start with the party tricks?

[Sarpedon]

He's making a geeky reference to D&D magic spells, Supergirl.

(lol lol lol Shadowfox, good one)

Fortunately, I'm a geek and find geeky jokes funny.

[Calzaer]

The Universe? Nah.

Speak for yourself, kid.

[Dalharuk]

I dont believe a bit in those magic stuff. Weirdly, its always happen to a friend of a friend and... well you know what Im talking about. Being a great skeptic, I love to jump on any occasion to just try to proove something happened or that it did not.

My sister do Tarot card thing and Im tired of hearing her says stuff like "it worked"... when she says an hundred things and one of them happen 3 month later and look more or less like what she said... I doubt...

I prefer MY magic! With Greater Stone Skin, nothing can reach me!;) Beside, identifying an item is not a problem because of my high Lore and Knowledge skills.

[triplew00t]

Calzaer, if this is true, about the watch thing, then go take the James Randi million buck challenge. Just show that the time changes drastically when u step into the circle on multiple occations under controlled conditions. You'd become famous and be worshipped by the world at large.

-Nero

[Bookman]

Originally posted by triplew00t
Just show that the time changes drastically when u step into the circle on multiple occations under controlled conditions.

I don't think that was his claim. I think he was just claiming that neopagans wear shitty watches.

B

[Calzaer]

Calzaer, if this is true, about the watch thing, then go take the James Randi million buck challenge. Just show that the time changes drastically when u step into the circle on multiple occations under controlled conditions. You'd become famous and be worshipped by the world at large.

Yeah, because I'm prideful, greedy, and have a hell of a lot of free time and initial investment capital to throw around (plane tickets, hotel stays, etc). And I have a hugely thick skin to handle all the ridicule and derision that will be heaped on me from the moment I send that first e-mail. AND, of course, my High Priestess and our entire working group has the same set of resources. Right.

Wtf? If you want to come down here and stand in one of our circles with your body covered in various synchronized timepieces, be my guest, but I don't feel any particular compulsion to be a Champion of the Paranormal to the entire world. A million dollars isn't even close to the amount of money I'd need to be offered before I took that job.

So yeah, I'm obviously either a coward or a liar, take your pick.Whatever. That's just what I get for responding to a direct question with a direct answer.

In short, if you want me to prove it, you come down here and I'll prove it. If you want me to turn my friends into some sort of travelling circus act, you can blow me.

[Valmorian]

Originally posted by Calzaer
So yeah, I'm obviously either a coward or a liar, take your pick.

I vote "most likely mistaken".

[premjan]

is most of the above religions basically ritual and spells, or is there any chanting and scripture too?

[brighid]

is most of the above religions basically ritual and spells, or is there any chanting and scripture too?

There are no scriptures in Paganism, nor is there any institutionalized dogmatism (even if some groups may be dogmatic.) Ritual and spell work are two facets of Wicca, and although important, they are simply vehicles of practice (at least in my interpretation.)

Paganism is ecclectic and creative. There is no "right" or truly "wrong" way to practice (although some sects will disagree.)

Some may chant, although any chanting is usually a part of ritual and/or spell work. There is also singing, dancing, drumming, etc.

Wicca (neo-paganism, etc.) is about self-betterment and betterment of the world, understanding that nature is all there is, and our place in this world.

Brighid

[Leah]

Originally posted by triplew00t
Calzaer, if this is true, about the watch thing, then go take the James Randi million buck challenge. Just show that the time changes drastically when u step into the circle on multiple occations under controlled conditions. You'd become famous and be worshipped by the world at large.

-Nero
I read this about the million before on this forum, and did wonder why noone does it, after all one could do good with the money, in Iraque for instance.
But the problem probably is that these things are to do with a particular mindset and condition that one simply has at a time and doesn't at another time.
I have put off laying the cards for a friend because I was in severe mental and consequently physical imbalance at the time, and my own state of being would have influenced the session.

But just as well could the million dollar challenge simply be impossible due to the amount of negative energy of the critical audience at the time.

[brighid]

But just as well could the million dollar challenge simply be impossible due to the amount of negative energy of the critical audience at the time.

That is possible, although I do think there are ways to mitigate that. Simply allow unintrusive monitoring during the next 12 sessions. A special monitoring device could be placed on the watches and hidden cameras and other monitoring devices could be strategically planted without anyone being the wiser, except the original claimant. After a time, and if one concentrates deeply enough those distractions would be irrelevant.

If there are noticeable changes in physical energy they should be recordable and proveable. Otherwise, it could simply be nothing more then a self-serving mind game one does not even know one is playing on one's self. It could all be in our own imaginations. Now if it is real it shouldn't be that difficult to prove, and if it can't be obtained do to nervousness or negativity there are things that can be done to overcome those obstacles.

Brighid

[Calzaer]

Not a traveling circus act. Thanks.

[premjan]

quantum mechanically speaking, even observation by a camera can collapse the wave function. The possibility of skeptical observation automatically changes the experiment. The real proof for this kind of magic lies in the conversion of people's minds.

[Leah]

Originally posted by premjan
quantum mechanically speaking, even observation by a camera can collapse the wave function. The possibility of skeptical observation automatically changes the experiment. The real proof for this kind of magic lies in the conversion of people's minds.
I read somewhere that the University of Cambridge had made studies on paranormal encounters/sensing, and apparently certain waves were monitored at the times when people trusted to have felt presences.
I wonder if anybody could find a web-link on this.

[premjan]

Neurons are probably just amplifiers of local quantum wave fluctuations: I bet this is what a thought is.

[Aquila ka Hecate]

premjam:
quantum mechanically speaking, even observation by a camera can collapse the wave function. The possibility of skeptical observation automatically changes the experiment. The real proof for this kind of magic lies in the conversion of people's minds.

But other people's minds can 'collapse the wave function as well.
How then, would there ever be anything to be observed at all, under any circumstances?

I'm sorry, this doesn't work for me-either there's an observable, measurable effect, or there isn't and in that case it isn't real .

Terri

[premjan]

probably if the mind is a quantum wave amplifier, then belief can sustain the phenomenon. I.e., if all the people involved genuinely believe it can happen, then it may indeed happen. In other words, the attitude of skepticism may cause the experiment to fail.

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Hmmm...bit convenient, that!

Like god, apparently supernatural phenomena are really, really good at hiding from people who aren't inclined to believe in them!

Look, I used to be a 'true beliver' and now I'm a skeptic and an atheist. I observe no difference in the 'before' and 'after' frequency of unexplainable phenomena.

If my 'faithful' mind wasn't registering any greater occurance of the miraculous than my infidel one, I get back to the same statement-it isn't really there .

Terri

[Leah]

Originally posted by Aquila ka Hecate
If my 'faithful' mind wasn't registering any greater occurance of the miraculous than my infidel one, I get back to the same statement-it isn't really there .

Terri
Still, Christians encounter the supportive energy of the holy spirit, they ask god for blessings during prayer and positive energy in times of tribulation, danger or fear. And many claim to have felt god's presence or guardian angels in times of need.

You will find that the presence of certain energies are part of most religions and pretty much all native cultures.

There must be a reason for this.

[Aquila ka Hecate]

You will find that the presence of certain energies are part of most religions and pretty much all native cultures.
There must be a reason for this.

Yes indeed-it's called 'the human brain'.
No dieties required.

Terri

[brighid]

You will find that the presence of certain energies are part of most religions and pretty much all native cultures.

Actually, one won't find the actual presence of any energies inside or outside religion, except those that exist in nature, regardless of time or culture. What you will find is people describing energetic feelings, that are entirely physical and natural, as "divine" energy.

Therein IS the difference. The common denominator is human, not divine and one can achieve the same "energies" (aka the Holy Spirit, etc.) regardless who one is praying to, worshipping, or working a ritual around (and believe me I have experienced very intense energetic feelings as a secular pagan leading ritual.)

Time does not stop. However, I could accept a perfectly logical explanation to the disruption of the watches by some sort of energy released from the body during ritual/circle (something that interferes with the battery perhaps.)

Calzaer,

No one is asking you to be a traveling circus, but I merely hypothesized a way in which these claims could be more objectively observed and measured with minimal interference from the scientific process. If it occurs, under specific circumstances, those circumstances can be duplicated, observed and measured for what they are, or are not. If the divine is acting within the natural realm then there will be some sort of "trace" of said interaction.

Brighid

[Leah]

Originally posted by brighid
Therein IS the difference. The common denominator is human, not divine and one can achieve the same "energies" (aka the Holy Spirit, etc.) regardless who one is praying to, worshipping, or working a ritual around (and believe me I have experienced very intense energetic feelings as a secular pagan leading ritual.)
Brighid,
I don't think I made myself understood here.
I don't believe in dieties, nor could I accept any that take pleasure in watching the daily cruelties on this planet without interfering.
When I talk about my 'spirits' then that is simply my form of respect towards something that is part of my life and that I have no logical explanation for. But it works for me.

[premjan]

indeed, for humans beings to experience high energy it is important that other human beings believe in them. Skepticism tends to be alienating to believers. Then again, there is quite a lot of speculation on the part of quantum physicists about how the mind is an emergent quantum phenomenon. So it could be true. However good evidence is not yet present for it, in the case of human minds. I am sure there is some experiment that could verify these miracles. it would just have to be carefully designed to prevent the interference generated by skepticism.

[brighid]

When I talk about my 'spirits' then that is simply my form of respect towards something that is part of my life and that I have no logical explanation for.

I guess I don't understand your position. How are "spirits" any different then deities? Now, I do think I understand what you mean by spirits and I have had some pretty intense experiences with "energies" that one could define as "spirits." I simply don't believe they are some sort of passed on relative, dead being, or other typical explanation for spirit. I have found it to be more of a function of my own brain, and the "spirit" category an attempt to fill in the blank for a pattern I have no complete answer for. This however, does not make what I (or anyone else) experiences as actual "spirits" working in the physical world. At least this is my feeling on the subject.

Perhaps we simply have different interpretations of "spirits."

However, I guess I can understand attempting to define something the best one can and therefore your conclusion of "spirits."

Brighid

[Leah]

Originally posted by brighid
However, I guess I can understand attempting to define something the best one can and therefore your conclusion of "spirits."
I am in the constant process of learning, and so also your language, phrases and words.
Concepts such as the Native American one of the Yai' (spirit people) as well as my desire to draw less attention to the idea of a particual ability of a specific person, let me use the term 'spirits'.

Personally I think that anyone who follows natural laws, maintains a natural lifestyle, seeks balance of body and mind, and with nature and human kind, who seeks for the truth within and respects that there is more then we can understand or prove, is sensitive, humble and innocent , etc.... can experience the things that you Brighid and me use different words for.

But also is this too personal and sensitive a topic, I find, to discuss on the Infidel forums.

[brighid]

I understand, and you need not share any personal experiences here that would be too personal for public consumption.

We use different words, however I think, if I understand your correctly, our words have the same meaning.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and clarify. I sincerely respect your position.

Brighid

[Leah]

Originally posted by brighid
We use different words, however I think, if I understand your correctly, our words have the same meaning.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and clarify. I sincerely respect your position.

"alike, similar, the same" something in those lines.
and: thank you. :)

[brighid]

and: thank you.

You are very welcome.

Brighid

[Phineas Flapdoodle]

Originally posted by Aquila ka Hecate
I have a huge problem with pagans who think they can alter the way the universe works just by thinking at it.
Terri

Would someone please explain to me what the Pagan religion is all about? I'm not baiting anyone here, honest. I never did know, and have actually never had a conversation with anyone about Paganism. Yes, I know that sounds strange. Likewise, is there a simple website or 2 that is considered a better or "best" source, that you would recommend a little poking around?

thanks!
Stephen J.

[Leah]

Originally posted by phineasf
Would someone please explain to me what the Pagan religion is all about? I'm not baiting anyone here, honest. I never did know, and have actually never had a conversation with anyone about Paganism. Yes, I know that sounds strange. Likewise, is there a simple website or 2 that is considered a better or "best" source, that you would recommend a little poking around?

thanks!
Stephen J.
Hi Stephen,
the following is a post reply on that subject from some pagan forum. Perhaps it helps to understand, it did help me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selkis
Very interesting thread this.

Also I think that Wicca is a religion such as most christian ones, with simular structures and herachies.
Whereas paganism is a form of life founded by nature itself.

When I started 'studying' paganism, I was delighted to have found others who felt and lived alike. I then came onto the topic of Wicca, and saw a (please forgive, "to me" ) simple religion like any other. Wicca didn't seem earthbound, they led a standart american life, (make-up, over-weight, plastic- and fast food lovers) had their regular church-like meetings.

A pagan was in my mind someone living in unity with nature, respecting and appreciating such, respecting and feeling the spirits, celebrating such in ones own way, restoring ones energy and seeking balance within oneself, with others and most of all with nature itself.
And I thought that just like me, any pagen was "moon-baving" during the full moon, and was exchanging energy with another, was finding answers in such nights and days, and had a deep relationship with the moon.

I then learned that pagens follow fixed dates of celebration, had names for various 'gods', and were again in some form organised.

........................ [personal belives omitted]
----------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saoirse Aiyana

My perception is quite different. A pagan, by definition is two things - 1)Someone who does not follow one of the three Abrahamic religions: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Though there are others, such as Hindus, Buddhists, and followers of Zorastrinism that would probably be insulted at being called such. 2)A pejorative word for a country-dweller who continued to follow the older folk-religions. When Christianity become the main religion of the Roman Empire, calling someone a pagan would be like calling someone else a hick or redneck now. Similar to the Norse heathen (one who lives in the heath).

There are various other definitions that can be used, such as a hedonist or one who worships false idols or one who has no religion at all, however the two I listed above are the definitions most commonly used when you are using the term pagan.

The definition you gave of being someone who is a nature lover, etc. has much more to do with Neo-Paganism, which is really something quite different. Neo-paganism is a modern day attempt to recreate, as well as create fully in the case of Wicca, those older folk-religions I mentioned. Neo-Pagans do tend to be tree-huggers, poly/duotheistic, and use magic - usually only for the benefit of themselves and if it harms none, though that is not the case for all Neo-Pagans. (BTW, I'm leaving Reconstructionists out of my definition of Neo-Pagans, as I am more inclined to call them Pagans, or put them in a separate group alltogether.)

Also, you say that Pagans followed fixed days of celebration, which I also have to disagree with. It is simply inaccurate to say that all Pagans celebrated the same fixed days. First of all many didn't follow an exact calendar so any feast days they did celebrate were certainly not fixed but instead subject to seasonal changes. Others, such as the Romans (though don't take me completely without a grain of salt - I'm not an expert on Roman religion) feast days were slightly more fixed and did regularly celebrate such feasts as Saturnalia. But to say that they all celebrated on fixed days would be incorrect.

Neo-Pagans on the other hand do tend to have fixed days of celebration, usually the same ones that Wiccans celebrate (Samhain, the Winter Solstice, Imbolg, Vernal Equinox, Beltaine, Summer Solstice, Lughnassadh, and the Autumnal Equinox). Though I'm sure there are those that don't really celebrate those either.

I would also say that to claim all pagans worshipped gods is incorrect. Many were simply animists or participated in some sort of ancestor worship and left gods out of the equation.

Most Neo-Pagans these days due to tend to all worship some form of the Divine, whether they be mono/poly/duotheistic. I really don't know of any Neo-Pagans who participate in ancestor worship, though I could be wrong. And I'm sure there are a few who would classify themselves as animists rather than theistic.
~Saoirse Aiyana
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leah

[Phineas Flapdoodle]

Leah, very cool & thank you very much; just those 2 thread posts really helped and just saved me some google headaches. :)

truly,
Stephen

[Leah]

Quite all right, Stephen :)

Good Night

[Kassiana]

www.witchvox.com

[brighid]

phineasf,

Paganism is an umbrella term for certain religions that are predominantly "earth centered." I have to disagree with some of the things said by those posters Leah quoted. I find the "overweight - too much make-up" stereotype to be nothing more then a stereotype, and rather insulting one at that. (Especially in regard to Wicca.)

The paganism of old would be most pre-Judeo-Christian religions. The neo-pagan movement is the modern incarnation of many of those religions, or what can be known of many of those religions as much of that knowledge was destroyed.

Modern paganism can be quite ecclectic. Wicca is the predominant neo-pagan religion practiced at this time, and it does involves the reverance of nature, celebrating the Sabbats and esbbats, but it is also as free flowing and without any set dogma (except within individual groups that chose rigidity.)

I am not sure a proper definition of the neo-pagan movement can be given. Neo-paganism is oft what one wants it to be.

I also find the caricature that Wiccans only practice magick to benefit themselves to be rather ridiculous. I can't say I have ever experienced such a selfish thing, and IMO, such a caricature must be developed from a very narrow experience within the movement. Even if a Wiccan's soul practice was to better herself this should not be looked upon negatively. I can't even imagine why it would. An ye harm none ... Everyone in that community is better when a single member is bettered, as these things tend to have a "ripple" effect.

Witchvox is a good resource, do check it out.

I would say neo-paganism is about re-establishing one's connection with the world at large. Remembering that everyone and everything is dependent upon "Mother Earth" and therefore it is everyone's moral duty to properly care for it, and Her fellow inhabitants. (One need not be pagan to adhere to this principle.) I think it entails remembering where we came from, and that not too long ago life was much more difficult for the Earth's people, and that we were very dependent on the cycles of nature, birth, death and rebirth - or at least more intune with them than we are now. It is about personal responsibility for all one does, and understanding that all actions have consequences (good and bad.) It's about being aware, and not simply existing within the hustle and bustle of daily life that is overly stimulated with all things electronic, chaotic, and often requiring near mindless interaction and separation from the real world.

It is creative above all things, and therefore there is no ONE TRUE WAY. It is whatever way one choses, and that path may change at any time, and it is to be respected as a unique, personal journey.

Brighid

[Phineas Flapdoodle]

wow - thank you very much 'Bridgid' for that rock solid description. I think you have a bright future in advertising copywriting or something similar... alright! You go!

I'll buy the 'mother earth' concept, and, yes, I'll poke around that site for further edification. Thanks. It might be a little synchronicity that I had already seriously contemplated registering this year in the Green Party, reviving my own biochemistry background, and putting it to good use for the platform of that party - as someone else has mentioned in this forum, the Greens do need desperately, some help - it's not that I'm thinking this guy can do any real significant good for them or even that I have the answers, but their message does need another voice, the more the better. It does disturb me when I see the environment far down on the list of American's voting concerns; it should be, IMHO, near the top.

very best,
Stephen

[Five_Finger_Karma]

Have I gained results from the practice of magic? Yes, a few. And I'm Atheistic and non-spiritual.

My view of ritual is that it's a purely psychological process used for either emotional release, reinforcement of something, or celebration. While many people are not in need of such a thing, which I'm sure almost every Atheist will note, many more are. And not all of those people are theistic ninnies.

Not only does "magic" enrich many people's lives, it can be a great way of working things out in a positive way. Many Atheists chose meditation as a means to do this, magic is the punching bag of meditation in my "religion" (Satanism) though there are those who view it as a material function that can actually cause an external change (I am not a subscriber to this view and often find it uncommon).

I don't believe I should go into what exactly I have benefited from it since ritual is often deeply personal, but I have benefited and will continue to in the future.

I think many people can benefit from it regardless of their personal philosophy or system of symbology.

And as for those who claim to have gained a miraculous external change through ritual magic, that sort of thing amounts to a Christian claiming a better life through Baptism to me. Crediting (blank, could have happened regardless) for some lofty belief and practice makes it seem all the more real over time.

Take from this what you will. This is my view.