Religion gives a leg up on morality?

[wiploc]

William Lane Craig says something like, "If there were no god, there would be no reason not to committ rape." Similarly, Theophilus and other Christians keep bragging that Christians can justify morality and atheists can't. But not one of them makes a serious stab at doing so. If theists can justify morality, why won't one of them try?

Is there any sense in which theists can better defend morality than atheists? I stand ready to defend the claim that atheists can defend morality at least as well as theists. If a Christian can defend, justify, or explain morality, I can do so just as well.

crc

[seebs]

This is a fascinating question. I'm not sure I'd be prepared for a debate on it, but I'd be interested in discussing it. I have been thinking recently about what makes for logically-coherent realities. I am toying with the theory that morality is similar to mathematics, in that it's not clear that it makes any sense to discuss what it would be like for it to be different than it is. If this were the case, I think you'd win; morality would be inherent.

The case, I think, for religion is not that it creates morality, but that, if a given religion is true, it saves you a great deal of effort trying to figure it out. I'm not sure that's a defensible claim in practice, although it sounds nice in theory.

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Hi wiploc,

As you know, there are plenty of potential opponents here. :) BGiC, Theophilus, Albert Cipriani, 7thAngel, luvluv, dk, and others. But they may not check this forum that often if at all.

I'd recommend subtly mentioning your challenge in a related thread in MF&P or EoG, or perhaps PM'ing people. Same goes for your PoE challenge.

Keith was involved briefly in a similar challenge (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62828) a little while ago. Perhaps he might be interested.

Jason

[extinctionist]

Not too sure on the general conventions for these debates, but I'll certainly take up your offer from the 'does morality exist thread'. I may not be quite what you are looking for because I am a committed atheist, but one who dismisses the need for morality, indeed the existence of morality, as theistic influence into general society.

[wiploc]

Originally posted by seebs
This is a fascinating question. I'm not sure I'd be prepared for a debate on it, but I'd be interested in discussing it.

Discussion would be fine. Even if we called it a debate, we might wind up agreeing.


I have been thinking recently about what makes for logically-coherent realities. I am toying with the theory that morality is similar to mathematics, in that it's not clear that it makes any sense to discuss what it would be like for it to be different than it is.

That's a facinating thought.



If this were the case, I think you'd win; morality would be inherent.

Hmm. I don't know whether I am an inherentist. It's a new thought to me.

I think some moral claims probably don't make any sense. Most others boil down to a codification of untilitarianism or a recommendation that we delay gratification in order to get more gratification.


The case, I think, for religion is not that it creates morality, but that, if a given religion is true, it saves you a great deal of effort trying to figure it out. I'm not sure that's a defensible claim in practice, although it sounds nice in theory.

If a wise and benevolent god wanted to be a guide to utilitarian morality rather than a creator of a pointlessly eccentric morality, then --- if we knew which religion he used to convey that enlightened morality --- that would be convenient.

crc

[wiploc]

Originally posted by extinctionist
Not too sure on the general conventions for these debates, but I'll certainly take up your offer from the 'does morality exist thread'.

There are many topics we could try to cover that are suggested in your thread. To keep a tight focus, let me suggest the idea conveyed in this line: "Can we have morality without a God?" I think you're suggesting that we could have morality with god. My position is that if we could have it with god, then we can have it without god. I don't see of what use god is to morality.


I may not be quite what you are looking for because I am a committed atheist, but one who dismisses the need for morality, indeed the existence of morality, as theistic influence into general society.

Your atheism did surprise me. Usually it is theists saying we can't have morality without god. It will be good to get an atheist viewpoint on how a god would be an aid to morality.

crc

[extinctionist]

I've been reading the thread I started with interest (if not actually participating in it that much) and believe I now have a general idea of how people treat morality. For the purposes of the debate, hows about we use:

moral science, moral principles, points of ethics, particular system of morals (eg commercial morality), degree of conformity to moral principles.

as a definition of morality (the OED definition). That would prevent any misunderstanding, and would prevent any accusations labelled at me for having a 'private meaning' for morality (which were understandable, if untrue).

Like I said, I've not had one of these debates before, so I'm open to suggestions on the structure, Wiploc, if you're still interested? I'd also like to invite NonContradiction or Abe Smith to discuss why you consider morality to be inapplicable to cultures or society.

Exx

[wiploc]

Originally posted by extinctionist
For the purposes of the debate, hows about we use:
-----
moral science, moral principles, points of ethics, particular system of morals (eg commercial morality), degree of conformity to moral principles.
-----
as a definition of morality (the OED definition). That would prevent any misunderstanding, and would prevent any accusations labelled at me for having a 'private meaning' for morality (which were understandable, if untrue).

You have no trouble telling right from wrong even though you don't believe in morality? You've got me totally stumped. I don't see how we can debate until you clarify.



I'd also like to invite NonContradiction or Abe Smith to discuss why you consider morality to be inapplicable to cultures or society.

Exx

Is it that they don't think morality is applicable to society? Or do you think I said that? Are you looking for a four way in which you discuss morals and society with them and morals and god with me?

crc

[wiploc]

Originally posted by extinctionist
as a definition of morality (the OED definition). That would prevent any misunderstanding, and would prevent any accusations labelled at me for having a 'private meaning' for morality (which were understandable, if untrue).

Like I said, I've not had one of these debates before, so I'm open to suggestions on the structure, Wiploc, if you're still interested?

How about not more than seven rounds of not more than 2000 words, with one week deadlines?

crc