Taoism

[Dancer]

Think...think, think. I just finished reading "The Tao of Pooh". I read it a while back before I was a crazy fundamentalist. I liked it then. I like it now that I'm a heathen again. I'm not looking for another religion to identify myself. But I checked out a couple of links and it looks interesting. I've just taken up yoga for good health and it looks like something nice to meditate on. Does anyone have any input? Positive or negative? Know of any crazy parts? Thanks.

[Straight Hate]

I find the 'so it goes' attitude of Taoism appealing, but it's difficult to find refuge in the lack of life direction. Philosophical Taoism I liken to pantheism - excellent if you're in the mood for it, but otherwise too slippery to be of much use. ...At least that's how many personality receives it.

If you haven't already, I'd suggest checking out the Tao Te Ching and 365 Tao, as well as some forums on the internet. They might be better suited in answering any in-depth questions you might have.

[Adora]

Modern "Taoism" is slightly different from its original form, and also, you don't "convert" to Taoism by just simply reading the Tao Te Ching. It's a complex religion that's been influenced by Confucianism and local animism in the Chinese countries, and now has it's base in Taiwan. In the early and middle Chinese dynasties it was particularly powerful, consantly battling with Buddhism for control of the ruling family and the state-sponsored religion. Of course, there are many Minority-World sects that are like the pop-Yoga BS that seems to be plagueing middle-class housewives everywhere without actually understanding the religion or spirituality that goes along with it.

If you are going to convert to anything, educate yourself about it as much as you can before you join. Don't make a blind leap and expect to find spiritual fufilment without the "crazy parts" of any religion. All religion is a social construct, and therefore has all the cultural tropes and hypocrisy of human societies woven into them.

[andy_d]

I don't really see a problem with housewives doing yoga. They're bound to benefit from it. It's not like they're mixing philosophies by doing a few stretches.

"Tao of Pooh" is a cool book. Any attempt to describe Taoism will likely have Taoists chuckling quietly, but I think it does an admirable job.

[premjan]

I adore the Tao Te Ching. Can't be beat for pithy and simple at the same time. Takes all the mystery out of things.

[Dancer]

Originally posted by Adora
Of course, there are many Minority-World sects that are like the pop-Yoga BS that seems to be plagueing middle-class housewives everywhere without actually understanding the religion or spirituality that goes along with it.

If you are going to convert to anything, educate yourself about it as much as you can before you join. Don't make a blind leap and expect to find spiritual fufilment without the "crazy parts" of any religion. All religion is a social construct, and therefore has all the cultural tropes and hypocrisy of human societies woven into them.

hmmm, that's food for thought. Yoga is actually a very convenient form of excercise/relaxation for me since I am stuck at home (van totalled back in April). So, I don't exactly feel "plagued" by BS. I wasn't really looking to convert to anything, since leaving fundamentalism various religions/mythologies have become a hobby of mine. That's what I was looking for though, I wanted to know if Taoism was a religion at all or just a philosophy. By the way, I checked your childofministry art out, I like it. Especially Dark Elf, nice work. Thanks for the input, have a nice day.:)

[Adora]

Thanks for the compliments about the art.

Sorry I was so bitchy about Yoga, it's just I have this vile hatred of the West romanticising and bastardising cultural fads like that, without any understanding of the complex structure of it. It's all broken down into 12 step plans and handy pocket-sized books and handsome celebreties with their own damned Yoga videos. It's so exploitative, it makes me sick.

But yes. It is both a philosophy and a religion. You can choose which level you want to take it with, but it's probably better if you have at least a decent understanding of the religion part, even if you only take it at the level of the philosophy.

[Dr. Jagan Mohan]

Adora, rightly said !

Before long, Yoga is going to get so indistinguishable from ordinary Jane Fonda exercises that people won't know the real stuff anymore.

A Good practice of Yoga demands a change in Diet and Lifestyle also.
The Rule No 1 for Yoga is self-disipline, as true Yoga enthusiasts know.

Just streching your body into postures mimicking Yoga isn't going to help.

:( but nowadays who cares? :( it is the day of 'Yoga for Businessmen', 'Yoga for housewives', 'Special Yoga', 'Christian Yoga', 'Yoga for Lawyers' and whatnot!!
Pantanjali would be amused!

Sorry for the off-topic.. Adora just reminded me of a sore-spot too.

[Dancer]

Originally posted by Adora
Sorry I was so bitchy about Yoga, it's just I have this vile hatred of the West romanticising and bastardising cultural fads like that, without any understanding of the complex structure of it. ...
it's probably better if you have at least a decent understanding of the religion part, even if you only take it at the level of the philosophy.

That's what I'm having trouble finding, the religious angle. I guess I have to look harder, I keep coming across the philisophical angle. The best of any religion or mythology always seems to look alike and seem reasonable, but when you dig for details that's when it gets hokey.
But the interesting point is, and I know this sounds silly, I hadn't ever clumped myself in with all those westerners you're talking about who just take up any fad without thinking about it. It struck me as odd...when I was a fundy I avoided certain books, movies, etc. because of the unknown ramifications spiritually. Now that I've walked away I have discovered that if you don't give satan any power then he doesn't have any. So, doesn't that apply to other religions as well? What's the danger? What is the rammifications of appreciating the good of a "fad" but not making it a lifetime interest/hobby. Just curious, I don't often get to understand a view of westerners from a non-westerner pov. thanks for the input and you weren't bitchy.

[taoist]

Greetings,

Taoism as practiced by westerners such as myself is primarily based on study and meditation on the Ching and should not be confused with the religion of central China that was ruthlessly suppressed during the cultural revolution. Like any religion, it evolved greatly over time, from what was once an essentially atheistic mysticism to its present day form incorporating a virtual pantheon of deities.

The western emphasis on the early mystical writings represents a return to a very ancient tradition developed over the course of nearly a millenium from c. 1200 BCE to c. 300 BCE. These writings as amended over time were collected and put into their final form by the pseudonymous editor Lao Tzu which translates literally as 'old man." The earliest known copy predates 195 BCE.

The Tao Te Ching, literally the Way Virtue Book, more prosaically the Book of the Way and its Virtue, normally rendered into english as the Way of Life, is now no more than an oddly anachronistic text rarely referred to by practitioners of the eastern religion presently making something of a comeback in China. The Ching is a set of 81 deceptively simple poems that has attracted the attention of numerous translators during the past century. The classical translation (http://www.edepot.com/tao2.html) by R.B. Blakney is available on the web, unfortunately without his commentary or historical preface.

Each of the poems is a virtual mandala for meditation and should be considered individually, as they were certainly composed, by the serious student.

In peace,

Jesse


Tao Te Ching, poem 1
There are ways but the Way is uncharted;
There are names but not nature in words:
Nameless indeed is the source of creation
But things have a mother and she has a name.

The secret waits for the insight
Of eyes unclouded by longing;
Those who are bound by desire
See only the outward container.

These two come paired but distinct
By their names.
Of all things profound,
Say that their pairing is deepest,
The gate to the root of the world.

[getalong]

Originally posted by Dr. Jagan Mohan

Just streching your body into postures mimicking Yoga isn't going to help.

Actually, stretching my body into postures mimicking Yoga made my tendonitis and that 'over 40 groan' when getting up in the morning go away. :-)

Taoism the religion, as I understand it, is a hodgepodge of various folk beliefs collected over time. I'm not sure if supernatural beings like the kitchen god, dragons, etc., that come from Chinese culture are taoist but they are likely to have their roots in taoism even if they are not officially taoist?

getalong

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

eh.. what's one more opinion on Tao?

i'll agree in principle with everything that's been related thus far.

it has been my own experience in this area that leads me to the conclusions that i shall state.

as has been pointed out, there are two distinct flavors of Taoism in existence today, religious Taoism and philosophical Taoism.

i should like to offer a third. Alchemical Taoism.

in truth, this could be subsumed under the philosophical umbrella, however, due to it's rather distinctive pratices i should rather place it in a seperate category.

Taoism has a few main source books, depending on ones tradition. All Taoist traditions and schools utilize the i Ching and the Tao Te Ching as foundational texts. Tradition says that Lao-tzu was the author of the Tao Te Ching. Modern scholarship is inconclusive with this, however, that is of no relevance to the text itself. furthermore, the name "Lao-tzu" means "Old Master" and is probably not his name. some scholars speculate that the author was really name Li-er.

in any event... besided the i Ching and Tao Te Ching there are a few other texts that play pivotal roles in Taoist thought. The earliest known Taoist text is called the Yin Convergence Classic and is said to have been composed by the Yellow Emperor... roughly 5000 B.C.E. The Masters of Huinan also holds a very important spot in Taoist literature.

now... when we move into the realm of Taoist Alchemy, i have to state upfront that my knowledge is limited to one particular shcool, the Complete Reality School.. moreover, it's even more specalized into the Northern Branch of the Complete Reality School.... however... i've rambled on enough here....

if anyone is interested... i'll post up a list of some of the more important texts from this school of Taoist thought.

[wandererfromtx]

Originally posted by Vajradhara

if anyone is interested... i'll post up a list of some of the more important texts from this school of Taoist thought.

I been studying philosophical Daoism for awhile now, and would be interested in looking at Alchemical Daoism.

Alan

[Adora]

That's what I'm having trouble finding, the religious angle.

The best places to find it are books that specifically focus on the history of Chinese religions and spiritualities. I can think of a few titles specifically looking at Taoism at my Uni, but I don't think you could be able to get them since they are about 20-50 yrs old.

[Vajradhara]

i've been away from the forum for a bit...

i'm working on an exposition of basic Taoist Alchemy for another site right now... once it get it complete, i'll post it here for your reivew :)

have a great holiday for those of you that don't have to work ;)

[premjan]

was all chinese philosophy essentially atheist?

[Answerer]

Originally posted by premjan
was all chinese philosophy essentially atheist?


It depends on your definition of 'atheist'. The closest that Chinese has to God is 'Heaven' which we call 'Cang Tian' in Chinese.



I been studying philosophical Daoism for awhile now, and would be interested in looking at Alchemical Daoism.

I think you are talking about the five elements in Taoism, metal, wood, water, fire and earth. In these supposingly five 'basic' elements of nature, they are interlinked in a way that water give rise to wood, then wood give rise to fire followed by fire giving rise to Earth and Earth giving rise to metal. Finally, the relationship ends with metal giving rise to water.

They are also related to each other in a 'destructive' way, for example Earth absorbs water and water extinguishs fire while fire melts metal and metal breaks wood. The cycle go back again to where it started with wood destorying Earth.

And the above are the basic principle of Chinese alchemical from Taoism which is not as complex as modern chemistry of course. LOL

[Mageth]

I've recently purchased and listened to Joseph Campbell's The Eastern Way (http://www.highbridgeaudio.com/joscamvol3ea.html), a thoroughly enjoyable and enlightening series of lectures by Campbell that explores the difference between western and eastern belief systems. In the series, Campbell explains the various forms of yoga and their purposes. Campbell doesn't specifically talk about Taoism in the series, instead focusing on Hinduism and Buddhism. The lectures are an excellent introduction to eastern belief systems for the western mind.

[Adora]

Originally posted by premjan
was all chinese philosophy essentially atheist?

Philosophies, yes. Religions, eh, sorta yes, sorta no. And by "Chinese" are you referring to all Asian religions?

See, there's a big divide in the Eastern God and the Western God. The Western God is the Big Omnipotent SkyBrat. It exists, because we dominate. If it doesn't exist, we have no basis for our domination and moral superiority. Eastern Gods are not so stable. There is a far more evolved and complex view of the universe that has evolved "Gods" into non-omnipotent things. The cyclical nature of most Eastern religions and their instability mean that everything, even gods, eventually return to the nothingness from whence they came. They are not Omnipotent, not total, not absolute.

[premjan]

I meant Taoism, Confucianism and Traditional Chinese religion and any other traditions seen to have originated within Chinese culture.

[Adora]

Originally posted by premjan
I meant Taoism, Confucianism and Traditional Chinese religion and any other traditions seen to have originated within Chinese culture.

Taoism's philosophies are atheistic, the religion is not (just like Buddhism). Confucianism is theistic, as it relies on a divine dictated order to keep the form of society with the whole heirachy and such. And there are animism of course, which is theistic.

[premjan]

What are the deities contained in the Chinese heaven?

[Harumi]

Ummm...

If I remembered my lessons correctly as a little girl:

There's the Jade Emperor and his wife (??)-Yu Hwang Da Ti and Hwang Mu Nyan Nyan

He has a court with women, men, etc of various ranks.

Gwan Shi Ying is another goddess who resides in heaven.

Hell, there are so many that I don't think you can list them all.

There's one thing they all have in common though: they're not going to punish you if you don't believe in them, which makes me less hostile to them in my book.

[premjan]

what are the taoist and confucian deities, if they are different from the above (jade emperor et. al.).

[Harumi]

Taoism and Confucianism originally never had any deities.

The Gods and Goddesses entered after the Chinese started to mix folk religions with Taoism and Confucianism, and Buddhism as well.

Gwan Shi Ying originated from the Buddhist religion, as did Buddha himself, who is worshipped as one of the ultimate god in some families, like mine.

Most families call themselves Buddhist, not Taoist, even though their beliefs contain a hodgepodge of all three of these ideas of thoughts.

As I grew up, I never really thought about it. It was fun to believe in such things, and even now, I think of my past like it was some romantic fairytale.

[premjan]

interesting how buddhism travelled mainly eastward, and lao-tsu (or the author of the tao te ching, at least in the legend) is said to have written down the tao te ching and then vanished towards the west. that must be an apocryphal tale, I suppose.

[Adora]

The Chinese pantheon is complex. First of all you have the Jade Emperor and his consort, who are like divine administrators. They have no inherent power, but are there to organise stuff and make sure everything works. Then there is the 13 zodiac and 4 divine animals (which overlaps abit when it comes to the pheonix/cock and dragon thing), and the heavenly court, made up of Lao Tzu, Confucious, other philosophers and higher-immortals, the guards of heaven, local deities etc etc. They reside all over the geography of heaven, as well as in the court. Then there is the Buddhist heaven, to the West (I think) where the Buddha, his disciple buddhas and Kuan Yin reside.

There are also immortals and deities that live on earth, some which have fallen, some which have risen from being normal human beings or from the underground hells. But to get to heaven or Buddhahood makes you a higher being than anything on earth.

If you want to know more about it, the first few chapters of Journey to the West are a good start.

[Answerer]

Originally posted by Adora
The Chinese pantheon is complex. First of all you have the Jade Emperor and his consort, who are like divine administrators. They have no inherent power, but are there to organise stuff and make sure everything works. Then there is the 13 zodiac and 4 divine animals (which overlaps abit when it comes to the pheonix/cock and dragon thing).

There are 12 zodiacs, not 13. They are the mouse, tiger, bull, rabbit, dragon, snake, horse, goat, monkey, chicken, dog and pig.

And the four divine creatures are the Green Dragon, Red Phoenix, White Tiger and Dragon-Turtle. There is a 'fifth' being us, the humans. And each of these five divine creatures represents and originated from the five basic elements I had talked about. Dragon represents water, Phoenix stands for fire, Tiger symbolize wood, Dragon turtle is made from metal while humans is born from Earth elements.



what are the taoist and confucian deities

Actually you can think of those deities as humans, Chinese folktales is full of stuffs of how humans earned their places in the heaven. Of course, if you study closer, Heaven remain the highest status in Chinese folk legends. This is probably due to the influence of I ching and Confucian beliefs like the 'Mandate of Heaven' and that humans are always below heaven and subjected to its will.

[premjan]

sounds a bit like mount olympus, but less hedonistic, containing mainly virtuous beings. feels like more of a "primary" or original religion rather than the elaborate conventions of scriptural religions or the highly theoretical treatment of yoga and spirituality.

[Answerer]

Originally posted by premjan
sounds a bit like mount olympus, but less hedonistic, containing mainly virtuous beings. feels like more of a "primary" or original religion rather than the elaborate conventions of scriptural religions or the highly theoretical treatment of yoga and spirituality.

Well, you don't call them chinese folktales or legends for nothing. But of course Laozi or Confucius never intend Taoism to be full of deities.

[premjan]

laozi and confucius shoulda realized that the people like deities and will invent them if none are offered.

[Harumi]

At least they're harmless.

I remembered as a girl that I adored Kwan Ying, because she was a strong, merciful, good woman. When news passed around that she had risen from the level of Pu-sa to Bodhisittva I rejoiced with everyone else.

They are as unlike the Abrahamic God and the Olympian God as water is to fire.

This is why even as an atheist, I wouldn't mind going back to worshipping them again. They're my friends. Even if the gods are real, at least I can look at their behavior and know that they were good people.

And they won't punish you if you don't believe anyways. :p

[ConsequentAtheist]

Does Taoism (necessarily) presuppose the Supernatural and/or a teleology?

[Scifinerdgrl]

Think...think, think. I just finished reading "The Tao of Pooh". I read it a while back before I was a crazy fundamentalist. I liked it then. I like it now that I'm a heathen again. I'm not looking for another religion to identify myself. But I checked out a couple of links and it looks interesting. I've just taken up yoga for good health and it looks like something nice to meditate on. Does anyone have any input? Positive or negative? Know of any crazy parts? Thanks.

I read the Tao Te Ching regularly & have started studying it a bit. I don't want to belong to a religion but I recognize the value of meditation and developing a thoughtful approach to dealing with life's difficulties. There is no deity in the Tao Te Ching but there's a religious branch that does believe in Immortals. That's also the branch that's responsible for a lot of new age stuff. The idea of chi, or flow, comes from that wing.

Yoga is relaxing and a good stretch, but it doesn't have anything to do with Taoism. If you want to assemble your own piecemeal Asian-based religion, you would probably find enough compatible parts to give yourself a grounding. Taoism would be expressed more in kung fu, especially Shaolin Kung Fu, or Tai Chi.

[Scifinerdgrl]

Does Taoism (necessarily) presuppose the Supernatural and/or a teleology?

The first verse of the Tao Te Ching basically states that if you can give a deity a name you're not thinking big enough. So in a sense there's something "out there" that's infinite and all-powerful, but it's also in all things, including ourselves.

The Tao Te Ching is written in puns and riddles that are intended to make you ponder the vastness of the universe and to try to behave in ways that are consistent with the "way" -- which is natural and infinite.

For personal application of the Tao to life, I recommend "The Tao of Inner Peace.' There's also an edition that has all the Chinese characters with their multiple meanings for all 81 verses. This gives you an idea of the number of interpretations that are possible.

[premjan]

In Sikhism also, God is simply called the "True Name".

[Yeshi]

Yoga is relaxing and a good stretch, but it doesn't have anything to do with Taoism. If you want to assemble your own piecemeal Asian-based religion, you would probably find enough compatible parts to give yourself a grounding. Taoism would be expressed more in kung fu, especially Shaolin Kung Fu, or Tai Chi.

Well spoken, SFgrl;

i was also dazed by the thread about Tao speaking more about Yoga.

Yoga is typical Indian, and there is no such thing as Chinese Yoga as far as i could research it. Shaolin "must have" been buddhist in origin, the legend has it that Pi-Kuan monk (Boddhidharma) after meditating for 9 years front of a wall on how to pass the Dharma to practical chinese people that had no philosophical inclinations, brought buddhist principles into a 5-element mandala fighting practice.

Tai Chi Chuan, yes, with full-empty chi principles is definitely yin-yang aka Taoist. I practiced it for some 2 years and the older students used to light a stick to Boddhidharma picture on a small altar before we meditated/exercised. I never bothered ask if the school was buddhist or taoist, someone else told me Boddhidharma is revered by both schools.

[Yeshi]

Tao Te Ching, poem 1


There are ways but the Way is uncharted;
There are names but not nature in words:
Nameless indeed is the source of creation
But things have a mother and she has a name.

The secret waits for the insight
Of eyes unclouded by longing;
Those who are bound by desire
See only the outward container.

These two come paired but distinct
By their names.
Of all things profound,
Say that their pairing is deepest,
The gate to the root of the world.





I see absolutely no difference between this and some other Doha/Gata (song of realization) by a realized buddhist master, except in terminology like Way, Nameless, Root of the World. I could go into line-by-line interpretation, but not too many are interested into such musings :P

[premjan]

Yoga is typical Indian, and there is no such thing as Chinese Yoga as far as i could research it. Shaolin "must have" been buddhist in origin, the legend has it that Pi-Kuan monk (Boddhidharma) after meditating for 9 years front of a wall on how to pass the Dharma to practical chinese people that had no philosophical inclinations, brought buddhist principles into a 5-element mandala fighting practice.



Bravo Yeshi, the "Chinese" monk Bodhi Dharma was an Indian Buddhist from the South Indian city of Kanchipuram.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

here's a link that may be of interest to some folks:

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/asia/chinese/articles.html

here you can find all the Chinese deities listed in alphabetical order, arraged in the pinyan system.

[Clivedurdle]

I do Taoist Tai Chi, that does attempt to link the religion with the form.

I recommend Alan Watts and Martin Palmer.

Google the above and you will get lots of interesting stuff.

My Tai Chi teacher calls tai chi a moving meditation - it is in some ways - even a twit like me can get a glimmer of what it is attempting in terms of yin and yang, connecting me with everything around, and beginning to understand what going with the way is about.

Religious? If motorcycling and football are religions, definitely!

[Clivedurdle]

http://www.taoist.org/english/lineage.php


The health-enhancing qualities of Tai Chi Chuan are founded in the lore of religious Taoism. Over a period spanning almost two millennia, various sects of Taoism have developed and perfected health exercises as part of their religious cultivation. Often referred to as daoyin, these exercises involved movements and health enhancing goals similar to Tai Chi, and were viewed by many as an essential part of Taoist practice. This association of spiritual cultivation with physical exercise may seem surprising, but in China the spiritual and physical realms were traditionally not seen as separate. As a result, in Taoism cultivation of the body was often viewed as an essential part of the religious development of the individual.

The Taoist sage, Zhang Sanfeng (1127 to 1279 a.d.), is generally credited with creating the set of movements referred to as Tai Chi (taiji) or Tai Chi Chuan (taijiquan). Works attributed to Zhang Sanfeng are found in the Taoist Canon - the collection of texts that forms the main corpus of Taoist literature. The main thrust of those writings is to describe the process by which a practitioner returns to a state of health in body, mind and spirit.

Zhang Sanfeng was a practitioner of the Wudang sect of Taoism, which belonged to one of the great streams within Taoism, known as the school of neidan or Internal Alchemy. The school of Internal Alchemy advocates the Return to the Origin. This means returning to spiritual health, leading to harmony with the Tao, which is perceived as the source of all existence. At the same time, it means returning to a body of perfect health as exhibited by the physiology of a young child. This dual process is also known as cultivating original nature and life.

As originally developed, Tai Chi was a tool for Returning to the Origin. Today, although most styles of Tai Chi are not forms of Taoist practice, they all owe their origins to this Chinese religious tradition.

[Yeshi]

... teacher calls tai chi a moving meditation ... As originally developed, Tai Chi was a tool for Returning to the Origin.

I know what you mean, i practised Kempo for 7 years and Tai Chi some 2 years. In Kempo, you have an additional skillful means to attain the correct state by the virtue of the opponent really hitting you if you're not "Present".
It is said that you actually fight yourself while you train it (or prolly your restrictions).

Additional benefit is that, both being physical movement exercises that involve the energy and the mind, that you unify these 3 levels of your existance (according to buddhism view) into a working whole.

Meditation in movement means (seen now from my todays perspective) that it is easy to meditate while sitting with eyes closed, but this temporary causal nirvanic benefit is shattered when you "come back to activity".

Kempo and TaiChi actually train you to keep samadhi while you move, correcting energy and mind disorders as they arise, until the meditation, better said - contemplation - (abiding in it) is not solved.

And learning to abide in the original state (nature of the mind or buddha nature) is the Path. Therefore, also the name KemPo means literary (so i was told): barehanded (aka no supplements) Buddha's path...

[Clivedurdle]

A theme from the bits and pieces I have read is about competitions between Taoists, Confucianists, Buddhists and yogaists about whose way is best!

In the Taoist versions, the taoists win!

Is this a major difference between Western and Eastern thinking? In the West, do we tend to go to war or have inquisitions over these differences?

[kctan]

Well, you don't call them chinese folktales or legends for nothing. But of course Laozi or Confucius never intend Taoism to be full of deities.

Well, there's only 3 for Taoism (or 4 as 2 of them are always there while the last is either one or the other depending upon the sect, don't ask me for names, can't remember them) while 1 for confucianism (Kong Zi only, Meng Zi, Xun Zi & company aren't worshipped). The rest are all make believe by common folks. They don't actually belong to Taoism or Confucianism per-se.

The entire heavenly kingdom of Journey to the West consist of folk-lores with some borrowing from Feng Shen Ban (the mythified story of how the Zhous took over from the Shangs) regarding quite a number of deities. The main theme is more on advertising Buddhism & relegating Taoism & folk deities to ranks beneath that of Buddhism. If you read JTTW, you'll find the 'bad' folks are usually Taoism practitioners.

[Answerer]

Oh, yeah the three deities of the Taosim (San Qing). Sorry guys, but I don't know how to translate their Chinese titles into English ones except one of them who is known as Lord Supreme and was said to be Lao Zi, himself.

As for Feng Shen Bai legend, I think most of you who are keen, can get to enjoy its marvellous plot rather easily from a Japanese anime of a quite similar title. I don't know much about how Tai Chi works although I was impressed by those experts' prowess in using them in certain live demonstrations.

On the other hand, I might know how it works if, of course, the chinese martial art based novels or drama are really based on real descriptions or actual stuff.

:D :D

[Yeshi]

Is this a major difference between Western and Eastern thinking? In the West, do we tend to go to war or have inquisitions over these differences?

In the "west" you are taught from your ego-perspective that you need "win" and be strong, to overcome "something" by use of force (mental, intellectual, brute, words, physical). Along (in USA) comes the perpetual (western) notion of "we are the good guys" so by comparison, the others have to be the "baddies".

From buddhist (eastern?) perspective, there are no "bad" guys, just "deluded" ones that did not understand how the things work and/or cannot see through some veils as to what's going on.

So there is no fight, no dualism. Everyone is entitled to his own path of understanding and non-violence means you do it in a gentle and tolerant way.

So a buddhist can patiently wait until a confutianist builds a nice state/family/world, a taoist develops healthy body that lives 300 years in happiness, yogis build up siddhis and samadhi attainments and STILL await for them at the turning of the everlasting Wheel (of life): we all shell meet again, at the point where the road leads only upward: towards the Enlightenment.

All other attainments possible are impermanent and one can have fun with them for awhile, but they are not the "solution".
And in the end, there are no ideologies, or sects: there are only (atm human) beings, that need friendship and help, like everyone else.

[Derek Spiewak]

I'd like to volunteer a response to the differences between Western and Chinese thought.

In Western thought, the only thought that is considered respectable is linear, ordered thought, based on literal descriptions, methodical processes, and culturally agreed-upon conventions. The problem with this is that this is not the way the universe works, and you cannot think that way all the time if you want to get anything done.

Taoism is concerned with fostering the idea that true reality (the Absolute) is impossibly complicated, and it does not feel any need to fit into our descriptions or analyses of it. It is useful only to the person who has been properly educated in the conventional ways, but is getting trapped by them. It doesn't reject orderly, sequential, or classical thinking, but it recognizes it as a tool to observe a universe which defies such thinking. Living within this realization brings total awareness, and a kind of graceful virtue called Te which comes from a more complete understanding of how to operate in the world around you.

When Taoist thinking is combined with Buddhism, you get the school of Buddhism known as "Dhyana," or "Chan" or "Zen" depending on the country you're in. Not surprisingly, it regards the true central message of the Buddha as impossible to describe completely through conventional means. It can only be hinted at or described incompletely, in seemingly contradictory ways.

Nothing here can be properly described as a "religion" or "philosophy" because those classifications don't work in Chinese thought traditions. Taoism and Zen regard themselves as "paths to freedom," i.e. ways to shake loose old thought patterns and allow you to consider a wider range of possibilities by seeing things as they are, and not colored by our thoughts. (A lot of New Agers take this to mean that scientific statements should be rejected as subjective or invalid, and this is a horrible twisting of the intentions of Taoist writers. Science is a tool for observing the universe, but its observations should never be taken literally as a perfect description of how the universe works.)

Far be it from me to boil down Taoism to simple statements, but I have no choice but to try. Essentially, the central message of Taoism is this: Now that you've learned what there is to know about yourself and the world around you, it's time to unlearn those things so that you can see how it really works.

The best writer I know of who does a good job of conveying traditional Chinese thought to a Western audience is Alan Watts. I think it is because he is a Westerner himself, and a native English speaker, and he does a good job of attempting to paint a picture of these ideas for people who are used to linear thinking.

[Scifinerdgrl]

To those of you commenting on the relationship between Taoism & Buddhism I highly recommend:

The Tao of Zen by Ray Grigg

The book traces the way Tao became the "Zen" in Zen Buddhism.

[Yeshi]

The book traces the way Tao became the "Zen" in Zen Buddhism.

well Zen is japanese way of pronouncing Cha'an, and Cha'an is chinese way of pronouncing Dhyana, which means meditative absorption in Sanskrt. I think Tao means something very diffierent, maybe "The Way".

translating into:

How did the way become the meditative absorption...

[Clivedurdle]

But the way that can be followed is not the way! Meditative absorption sounds not too far off base, like the sound of one hand clapping!

[THX1138]

For myself, I don't see the need to identify myself with a particular philosophy or religion. I've had an interest in philosophical Taoism for several years now, though I certainly wouldn't call myself a die-hard Taoist (actually it would be very un-taoistic to call yourself a Taoist!). I'm not into the breathing, the alchemy, etc.

I'm slowly working on a version of the Tao te Ching myself (not a translation, but a composite of my own personal apporach along with many different translations of the Tao te Ching & other scholarly books - I don't know classical Chinese, but it's a fascinating language). If you REAALY want to get into the Tao te Ching, I recommend getting at least five different decent translations - Chinese is very fluid, esp. the Tao te Ching.

My personal three favorite Lao Tzu translations:
1) Red Pine
2) Stephen Addiss and Stanely Lombardo
3) Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English

Also, there's one by Jonathan Star's recent translation. I bought it for the appendix which lists each Chinese character with its multiple meanings. It's a great tool.

So far, I have only one real Chuang Tzu translation (by Hammill & Seaton), but Thomas Merton's "version" of Chuang Tzu (The Way of Chuang Tzu) is worth reading.

Some good books on Taoism, on the philosophical side:

Ray Grigg's "the Tao of Zen" (also mentioned in an earlier post)
"Lao-Tzu and the Tao-Teh-Ching" by Livia Kuhn & Michael LaFargue (essays by Tao scholars)
"The Tao of the West" by J.J. Clarke (excellent book).

I don't exactly "meditate" in any formal sense, however, I also play a Japanese end-blown flute made from bamboo called the shakuhachi. It's a beautiful instrument which I would recommend to anyone who was seeking alternative methods for meditation. It has been used in the Zen tradition for just that purpose.

If anyone is interested in more info on the shak & the shakuhachi tradition, feel free to give me a holler on this thread or at my e-mail address (see my profile). Also, here's a good place to start: www.shakuhachi.com - I bought one of my shaks from this guy - high quality flutes!

J

[Anitra]

Taoism is concerned with fostering the idea that true reality (the Absolute) is impossibly complicated, and it does not feel any need to fit into our descriptions or analyses of it. It is useful only to the person who has been properly educated in the conventional ways, but is getting trapped by them. It doesn't reject orderly, sequential, or classical thinking, but it recognizes it as a tool to observe a universe which defies such thinking. Living within this realization brings total awareness, and a kind of graceful virtue called Te which comes from a more complete understanding of how to operate in the world around you.

When Taoist thinking is combined with Buddhism, you get the school of Buddhism known as "Dhyana," or "Chan" or "Zen" depending on the country you're in. Not surprisingly, it regards the true central message of the Buddha as impossible to describe completely through conventional means. It can only be hinted at or described incompletely, in seemingly contradictory ways.

Nothing here can be properly described as a "religion" or "philosophy" because those classifications don't work in Chinese thought traditions. Taoism and Zen regard themselves as "paths to freedom," i.e. ways to shake loose old thought patterns and allow you to consider a wider range of possibilities by seeing things as they are, and not colored by our thoughts. (A lot of New Agers take this to mean that scientific statements should be rejected as subjective or invalid, and this is a horrible twisting of the intentions of Taoist writers. Science is a tool for observing the universe, but its observations should never be taken literally as a perfect description of how the universe works.)
This sounds very much like how I understand it. "Mysticism is not all that mystical." :)

I also second Josh's recommendation: "Thomas Merton's "version" of Chuang Tzu (The Way of Chuang Tzu) is worth reading." Christian mystics, Buddhist mystics, Toaist mystics, are all saying similar things -- because there is, after all, one "what-it-is." And they are all just fingers pointing at what-it-is. :D

My personal approach to religion is also that it is a tool for living, but should never be taken literally as a perfect description of how life works.

It seems to me that the Eastern approach was focused on developing the individual ability to perceive and think, and not on amassing a group collection of knowledge; while the Western approach was to develop a group accumulation of knowledge and technology and skills and then instill that collection into individuals. Both approaches had their strengths and their weaknesses. It seems to me that one of the things going on in current world culture is attempting to combine the strengths of both approaches and weed out the weaknesses in both.