Native American beliefs

[rebels]

Being part Native American and having a wife that is also certainly gives us a differant take on Religion. I certainly feel all Religions are basically Pagan. They deny this and this shows their lack of integrity.

[spin]

Hello rebels.

Originally posted by rebels
Being part Native American and having a wife that is also certainly gives us a differant take on Religion. I certainly feel all Religions are basically Pagan.

You're probably right, but...

They deny this and this shows their lack of integrity.

... I don't understand why they lack integrity if they can't see that religions are basically pagan. Sopisticated systems of clouding the issue, systems developed over the millennia through long refinement, prevent people from being sufficiently analytical. (As science developed, so did the clouding systems.)


spin

[Amos]

Originally posted by rebels
Being part Native American and having a wife that is also certainly gives us a differant take on Religion. I certainly feel all Religions are basically Pagan. They deny this and this shows their lack of integrity.

Who are they? Catholicism can incorporate all minor mythologies which shows the height of integrity. With this is not meant that all should be incorporated because all may not be beneficial towards the purpose of religion but it sure can be explained away in effort to reach conformity.

I certainly agree that religion is man-made but inspired nonetheless or faith could not lead towards understanding of the metaphor that exist only because we are lost in the obsured vision of our ego consciousness.

[variant 13]

I think its a bit unfair to say "You're pagan. There's no use denying it"

If they don't want to be included then let them get on with it. Unless they are creationists or something like that, then its fine (my logic :) )

Sort of like this the ancient egyptians were pagan business (your view?)

[beanpie]

quote:
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The name Tallahassee actually means," Allah will deliver you sometime in the future." In North America, there are no less than 565 names of tribes, villages, cities, mountains and other lands sites of Islamic or Arabic roots.
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(Black) Muslims, from West Africa, visted America, A MINIMUM of 600 years BEFORE Colombus "discovered" America. They converted the Native American.

You are free to dispute this info, if possible.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/ht/before-columbus.html

http://www.victorynewsmagazine.com/AfricanMuslimsInTheAmericas.htm

"Our belief is that the Great Spirit has created all things. Not just mankind but animals, all plants, all rocks, all on earth and amongst the stars with true soul. For us, all life is holy. All of nature is within us and we are part of all nature." Chief White Cloud

"What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night." Crowfoot

"In the life of the Indian there was only one inevitable duty- the duty of prayer - the daily recognition of the Unseen and the Eternal." Ohiyesa

[Viti]

Revising history to fit any particular set of beliefs needs no specific refuting.

Tallahasee is a Muskogee word meaning 'old town'

[Amos]

The consolation may be that the "old town" is 'begging for deliverance.'

[Doctor X]

I am sorry, I thought I had left General Religion and was in BC & H. . . .

--J.D.

[Amos]

Sorry your royal highness and in case it may comfort you, we settled the HJ question a long time ago.

[Doctor X]

Well it does have random non sequiturs and ravings so it does look a bit like BC&H.

Anyways, the Indians cannot be Muslim because . . . like . . . according the In Search of Jesus movie--made by the same idiots looking for an Ark--Junior converted all of them . . . or . . . wait . . . maybe they are all the "missing tribe" which means they are all Jewish. . . .

As always, one should base history on evidence rather than on faith.

--J.D.

[mike_decock]

[Mod Mode]

This doesn't like like BC&H to me, either. Let's try Non-Abrahamic Religions.

-Mike...

[Gunnaheave]

I think that Christians do (frequently) falsify their history a great deal. But I'm not sure this means that their religions are essentially pagan. The degree to which this would invalidate their beliefs depends largely on the degree to which the denial of real history is central to the particular beliefs of any given Christian.

BTW: I am curious, rebels, do you adhere to any particular Native American beliefs, or do you reject them. What traditions are you most familiar with?

[beanpie]

I am sorry, I thought I had left General Religion and was in B\C & H. . . .

I humbly offer my apology for, my zealousness.

[Doctor X]

No need to apologize. One just has to be careful with such reconstructions.

--J.D.

[catalyst]

Originally posted by beanpie
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The name Tallahassee actually means," Allah will deliver you sometime in the future." In North America, there are no less than 565 names of tribes, villages, cities, mountains and other lands sites of Islamic or Arabic roots.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



(Black) Muslims, from West Africa, visted America, A MINIMUM of 600 years BEFORE Colombus "discovered" America. They converted the Native American.

You are free to dispute this info, if possible.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/ht/before-columbus.html

http://www.victorynewsmagazine.com/AfricanMuslimsInTheAmericas.htm

"Our belief is that the Great Spirit has created all things. Not just mankind but animals, all plants, all rocks, all on earth and amongst the stars with true soul. For us, all life is holy. All of nature is within us and we are part of all nature." Chief White Cloud

"What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night." Crowfoot

"In the life of the Indian there was only one inevitable duty- the duty of prayer - the daily recognition of the Unseen and the Eternal." Ohiyesa

Some references in those articles might be nice. Also, as at least one article refers to the Cherokee treaty of 1866 being signed by a chief, instead of delagates appointed by the Cherokee nation, it appears as if their reserach was a little spotty.

Furthermore, some Native American traditions do not even have a word for God, which runs rather contrary to most interpetations of Abrahamic tradition.

[Waning Moon Conrad]

"Our belief is that the Great Spirit has created all things. Not just mankind but animals, all plants, all rocks, all on earth and amongst the stars with true soul. For us, all life is holy. All of nature is within us and we are part of all nature." Chief White Cloud

"What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night." Crowfoot

"In the life of the Indian there was only one inevitable duty- the duty of prayer - the daily recognition of the Unseen and the Eternal." Ohiyesa

The Chief White Cloud statement proves that he had a concept of one great spirit which created everything or that he had had contact with whites, soldiers, settlers, wagon trains, wagon train guides and missionaries and hence knew something of Christian thought and monotheism and thought that it had merit, or that he was saying to whites what he thought they wanted to hear in the hope of generating empathy between his people and them.

In itself it does not constitute proof of contact with Islam.

Don't forget that Judaism is monotheistic also. Why not see it as evidence that Jews were active in the Americas a thousand years before Columbus?

Crowfoot's statement sounds like a pragmatic recognition that life is short. Nothing particularly Islamic about it. It reminds me of some statements about the shortness of life made in Buddhism but Buddhism does not have a monopoly on the capacity to see and state the obvious.

The duty of prayer? The daily recognition of the unseen and eternal? Tribes people with shamanic religions often seem to have a profound reverence for nature and life. I read somewhere that a third of the waking time in a typical Australian Aboriginals life was spent on religious/spiritual practice.

No Islamic monopoly there either.

[Waning Moon Conrad]

Originally posted by rebels
Being part Native American and having a wife that is also certainly gives us a differant take on Religion. I certainly feel all Religions are basically Pagan. They deny this and this shows their lack of integrity.

Can you define pagan please?

[premjan]

normally means nature-worshipper.

[Waning Moon Conrad]

Originally posted by premjan
normally means nature-worshipper.

Yeah but I want Rebel's definition of pagan.

[Gunnaheave]

Actually, it doesn't look like Rebels' are coming back.

I am continually amazed, btw, both at the tendancy to collapse different traditions as though they were all part of one great N.A. belief, and at the tendancy to idealize N.A. life. You would think that they were all praying all day long. It's just so easy for anyone, white or native, to fantasize whatever they want about the Indian past. It all gets quite silly sometimes.

[catalyst]

But isn't that true about most people's (yes, I am generalizing, deal with it) view of other's beliefs? People in general often have very little working knowledge of their own belief structure, so is it that surprising that their ignorance of others is even greater?

[Gunnaheave]

Ah, but that's just the reason why some "other" is so useful. If it's just your own tradition, then it's incompleteness is a real threat to it's legitimacy. Why doesn't it all make sense? Why don't you have good answers? But if you adopt someone else's beliefs, then you can imagine THEY have all the answers, and your ignorance is just a sign that the future is rich with possibility. Now add a few shameless gurus or shamans willing to sell the spiritual tourists whatever they appear to want, and you have the makings of a beautiful relationship. That is why I think images of Indian spirituality (in both India and America) are a bit more prone to shameless flights of imagination.

[catalyst]

To say nothing of how easy it is to milk the tourists for a few extra dollars to peform a 'sacred indian ritual'.
<sigh>

And I do agree with you that people often tend to idealize a belief structure outside of their own, usually because they are not satisfied with the one they currently have. And it is amazing how often they do not even bother trying to understand their own before looking elsewhere.

Or, as one really smart man I was honored to know once said "People spend so much time looking outward because they are afraid to look inward."

[premjan]

what's so great about looking inwards? what's so interesting about what's there?

[catalyst]

It was more about the need for the critical examination of self than anything else.

[premjan]

and what does self-examination actually buy us, other than make us articulate at parties.

It materially weakens our self-preservation impulse and causes us to drop out, partially, of the daily struggle or rat race, et. al.

[catalyst]

Why is that?

[premjan]

it can cause us to rationalize defeat.

[catalyst]

How so? Perhaps we do not mean the same thing when we talk about critical self-examination.

I would apply the principles of critical examination to my reivew of myself, my performance, etc. Rationalization is less than honest, IMO, even though most people engage in it on a regular basis, and few people are completely immune to the process.

How does reviewing our attitudes, our performance, and our moral code, just to name a few, lead to rationalizing defeat?

[premjan]

see: reason and rationalization are hardly separable. it all depends how hard you think. A high degree of analysis generally leads to paralysis. you should think hard enough to figure out what to do, then stop thinking until it is next required. What I mean is: if you stop to think about the real reason and true origin of everything, then you are likely to be completely stopped in your tracks. at least this is my personal experience.

[catalyst]

There is a difference between self-analysis and over-analysis. Most things, when carried to an extreme, are harmful in some way. Since we are discussing personal opinion, IMO a balance pretty much always needs to be struck between two opposite poles, if you will.

Of course, one of the ways to determine if you have achieved this is critical self-examination.

[premjan]

if you are over-analyzing, self-analysis will not help you to find this out.

[catalyst]

Why not? And I am serious. I tend to over-analyze things, and at times I find the need to simply step back a review what I am doing. A meta-analysis, if you will. Rather like asking myself 'how important is this with respect to accomplishing my goals?"

[premjan]

works sometimes, but I doubt there are multiple hardware layers in the brain for analyzing things at many multiple removes. in other words, you may discover that you lose the capacity for abstract thought if you impose successive layers of analysis. Plus you may find your goals eroding as you rationalize various things to yourself. It can happen.

[Mageth]

For anyone interested in learning a bit more about Native American mythology, I'd highly recommend the book Black Elk Speaks (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0803261705/104-3454899-0798315?v=glance), by by John G. Neihardt.

Here it is online. (http://www.blackelkspeaks.unl.edu/toc.htm)