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variant 13
December 21, 2003, 12:41 PM
Couldn't find this anywhere else so I thought I'd start it here.

The accepted view (that of the general public) is that Mother Teresa (Agnes Bojaxhiu) was some kind of saint that thought of nothing but the suffering of others.

After doing a bit of reading I realise that this almost certainly crap.

Here are some of the reasons why:

"Christopher Hitchens described Mother Teresa's organisation as a cult which promoted suffering and did not help those in need. Hitchens said that Teresa's own words on poverty proved that her intention was not to help people. He quoted Teresa's words at a 1981 press conference in which she was asked: "Do you teach the poor to endure their lot?" She replied: "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." "

Please note the "... beautiful for the poor to accept their lot,"

What does that mean that they shouldn't attempt change.

And:

"There have been a series of reports documenting inattention to medical care in the order's facilities. Dr. Robin Fox, editor of the British medical journal The Lancet visited the Home for Dying Destitutes in Calcutta and described the care the patients received as 'haphazard.' He observed that although there were doctors who called in from time to time, decisions about patient care were usually made by the sisters and volunteers (some of whom had medical knowledge). Dr. Fox specifically held Teresa responsible for conditions in this home, and observed that her order did not distinguish between curable and incurable patients, so that people who could otherwise survive would be at risk of dying from infections and lack of treatment. Fox conceded that the regimen he observed included cleanliness, the tending of wounds and sores, and kindness, but he noted that the sisters' approach to managing pain was disturbingly lacking."
---

There are a number of allegations about how donations are spent or not spent as the case maybe:

"In the United Kingdom, where the law requires charitable organisations to disclose their expenditures, an audit in 1991 concluded that only 7% of the total income of about US$2.6 million went into charitable spending, with the rest being remitted to the Vatican Bank. "
----

"There have been reports that Teresa encouraged members of her order to baptise people who were dying, without regard to the individual's religion. Susan Shields alleged that Mother Teresa's order engaged in secret baptisms of Hindus and Moslems in its facilities. Teresa herself seemed to confirm this in a speech at the Scripps Clinic in California in January 1992, when she said: "Something very beautiful... not one has died without receiving the special ticket for St. Peter, as we call it. We call baptism ticket for St. Peter. We ask the [dying] person, do you want a blessing by which your sins will be forgiven and you receive God? They have never refused. So 29,000 have died in that one house [in Kalighat] from the time we began in 1952." "

Info from: http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa

and

http://www.meteorbooks.com/index.html

Just wanted to know what people think.

Cheers

Katarzyna
December 21, 2003, 03:01 PM
I think Mother T was seriously misguided. Whether she thought she was actually doing good/helping people, or she knew how much she was making them needlessly suffer, I don't know. Either scenario is nearly incomprehensible to me.

I haven't voted, though, because what I think she did was very bad, I don't feel comfortable calling her a "sinner"--I can only evaluate her actions with regards to secular morality.

Kat

variant 13
December 21, 2003, 03:17 PM
As an atheist I was using saint/sinner as good/bad.

And also judging her in the way that her religion would choose to label people.

Should have put that before but didn't think about it.

Amos
December 21, 2003, 04:05 PM
Well I called her a saint because her contributions paved her way to heaven long before she made her legend.

lpetrich
December 21, 2003, 04:21 PM
By the standard of medieval saints and people in the Bible, she could barely work miracles; that Monica Besra miracle is pathetic.

Did MT ever calm any storms?
Did MT ever miraculously fill an empty oil can with oil or recharge a dead battery?
Did MT ever miraculously desalinate seawater?
Did MT ever point out any monster-containing trees?
Did a crab ever return a lost crucifix to MT?
Did MT ever cure blindness?
Did MT ever strike blind anyone who stole from her?
Did MT ever cause an earthquake in a town whose citizens said nasty things about her?
Did MT ever miraculously create any big piles of bread and fish?
Did MT ever raise anyone from the dead?
Did MT ever cure anyone with magical spit therapy?
Did MT ever walk on water?
Did MT ever turn water into wine?
Did MT ever zap some Missionaries of Charity employee who kept too much for herself?
Did MT ever turn some sticks into snakes?
Did MT ever sic a pack of stray dogs on some kids who teased her about being a wrinkled old hag?
Did MT ever have a competition with some Hindu priests about whose god was better at making a rain of fire from on high?

I will concede that MT had worked two miracles:

Creating an image of herself as a great humanitarian.

Causing an inverse bread-and-fish miracle: the disappearance of much Missionaries of Charity money.

missus_gumby
December 21, 2003, 05:43 PM
Here's a picture of the Calcutta branch of MT's ministry:

http://www.english-atheist.co.uk/calc.jpg

...not much bang for the millions of dollars in all those multi-national bank accounts is there?

Now contrast it with a proper hospital not 20 miles from where I live:

http://www.english-atheist.co.uk/adden.jpg

...several of which she could have had constructed and staffed with all the money that went her way.

Makes you think doesn't it.

variant 13
December 21, 2003, 06:01 PM
"In the United Kingdom, where the law requires charitable organisations to disclose their expenditures, an audit in 1991 concluded that only 7% of the total income of about US$2.6 million went into charitable spending, with the rest being remitted to the Vatican Bank. "

That'll teach her to come to the UK:)

Rational BAC
December 21, 2003, 06:48 PM
Who knows for sure about Mother Teresa?

In some ways she epitomizes the best and the worst of early Christianity. --------that our temporal life is temporal and unimportant--that suffering and poverty is good.--that the only point of our earthly existence is the afterlife that we seek.

I think she would have been an obvious Saint 1000 plus years ago. Is she a Saint today in our very materialistic world?

Depends on how you look at it.

She is a throwback to long ago, almost forgotten times.

And for sure she was a very good Catholic as far as bringing money to the Church.

iloveyou
December 21, 2003, 10:36 PM
a better question was whether Mother Theresa was a woman? Only by being a woman can you be a mother, am I right or am I right?

I am bothered by new reports that claim they saw Mother Theresa peeing standing up. The story has caused many countless sleeps in the vatican.

If she is a woman, is she a virgin? If she isn't, then she is a mother. Why call a single woman, mother!

And lastly, you can be both a singer and a saint. It is not an "exclusive or" thing. Though I know for a fact that no singer has been made a saint yet. Most singer are now burning in hell. Lennon, Jerry Lewis, Da King and Mick Jagger (he soon will be...)

Deacon Doubtmonger
December 22, 2003, 12:06 AM
Here's my favorite support for "sinner" from Hitchens' book:

"The point is not the honest relief of suffering but the promulgation of a cult based on death and suffering and subjection. Mother Teresa ... described a person who was in the last agonies of cancer and suffering unbearable pain. With a smile, Mother Teresa told the camera what she told this terminal patient: 'You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you.' Unconscious of the account to which this irony might be charged, she then told of the sufferer's reply: 'Then please tell him to stop kissing me.'" (The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice)

Katarzyna
December 22, 2003, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by Rational BAC
that our temporal life is temporal and unimportant--that suffering and poverty is good.If she chose poverty and suffering for herself, I wouldn't have any problem with it... if she served others through her own suffering and poverty, then she should be admired. The problem here is that she chose poverty and suffering for others. And if I've heard right, she did very little suffering herself, and certainly did not live in poverty.

Think of the good all that time and money would have done, if put into the right hands. Makes me sick, thinking about how she fooled the rich to rob them, and didn't give to the needy.

Kat

Smidlee
December 22, 2003, 11:11 AM
wow , the poll is 2-35 now that funny because if you'll were to be poor ole Teresa judges,she hasn't got a chance

Dr. Jagan Mohan
December 22, 2003, 11:33 AM
I swear upon everything I hold fair and sacred that I have personally seen MT Nuns use Ambulances donated to them for personal travel... never have I ever come accross those ambulances transporting patients.
SOmetimes the nuns travel even with the lights flashing and sirens blaring!

Missionaries of Charity is a cult.
The press has made a Saint out of Her, while she did some social work, it was nothing compared to what many other anonymous workers still do in India and elsewhere.

Maybe the image of a Catholic nun from some foreign land, who sacrificed everything to come to poor India and help lepers has some media value, sentimentalistic for exploitation and thus she became an Idol of Christian charity.

She accepted with glee, donations from Mafia dons and Drug cartels, only to fill the coffers of Vatican. Not more than 5% of that money was spent in India.
If all those money had been spent in India, we could have abolished leprosy for ever in Culcutta.

Wayne P
December 22, 2003, 11:44 AM
If you're not blinded by the Church propaganda, and actually read the reports of this so called charity, you'll easily see that it was all an ego trip for MT, as it was for most saints. 'Oh, look at me, I'm sooooo good! Look at me.' What's so horrible is that other people die in pain and lonelyness to support this type of person.

liamo
December 22, 2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Jmebob
"In the United Kingdom, where the law requires charitable organisations to disclose their expenditures, an audit in 1991 concluded that only 7% of the total income of about US$2.6 million went into charitable spending, with the rest being remitted to the Vatican Bank. "

That'll teach her to come to the UK:)
That would be a good argument against the MoC, but has anyone found a source for those figures?

ATB

Liam

variant 13
December 22, 2003, 04:43 PM
Right well I got it first from wikipedia, but it has links like this:


http://are.berkeley.edu/~atanu/Writing/teresa.html

HaysooChreesto!
December 22, 2003, 06:38 PM
I chose "Saint" because there wasn't anything better. I don't hold anything against Sister T.

Like everyone else she was looking out for #1. Every time she stooped down to put the nose back on some poor lepers face everyone would admire her for it. But the fact is it made her feel good to be around all those sickly people because if she wouldn't have been around them she would have felt guilty. She certainly wouldn't have been there if it made her feel bad. She figured that she had to do God's work because if she didn't she risked the same fate as we heathens. She needed to save her own soul... Lookin' out for #1!

Rational BAC
December 22, 2003, 07:12 PM
To the early Christian church who believed that suffering was good and that this world is temporal and only a minuscule part but a very important part of our eternity--a test-----she would be called saintly.

To our modern materialist, live for today world-------she is a nut case.

lpetrich
December 23, 2003, 03:44 PM
If "this world" is so evil, one can always flee from it by committing suicide.

JGL53
December 23, 2003, 07:51 PM
"Swine" wasn't a choice, so I check "sinner".