Effects of prayer

[Soul Invictus]

I'm looking to generate dialogue with respect to the point of prayer. The underlying theme will probably end up focusing on if you're a causal(pre-derminist) or a fatalist(free-will) proponent, unless you maintain some sort of hybrid amalgamation of both.

-If God has everything blueprinted according to his divine plan, then isn't prayer ineffectual?

-If God is partly influenced by the prayers of the righteous with respect to choosing to operate in a certain manner, how does this harmonize with predeterminist approaches or omnipotence proponents?

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I'm looking to generate dialogue with respect to the point of prayer. The underlying theme will probably end up focusing on if you're a causal(pre-derminist) or a fatalist(free-will) proponent, unless you maintain some sort of hybrid amalgamation of both.

-If God has everything blueprinted according to his divine plan, then isn't prayer ineffectual?

-If God is partly influenced by the prayers of the righteous with respect to choosing to operate in a certain manner, how does this harmonize with predeterminist approaches or omnipotence proponents?

Of course I'm an Atheist, so this question isn't directed at me, but I'll try to answer as I would have when I was a xtian.

God has a divine plan that is general in nature. He knows what's going to happen in the end, but the path to get there is open. As long as the prayer doesn't change the master plan, it will be allowed to happen. For instance, a xtian can pray for world peace, but that interferes with the master plan. However, praying for my uncle from Vietnam's arm to regrow doesn't interfere with the master plan, and thus this particular prayer is answered all the time.

(Sorry, couldn't resist that last part.)

[Rational BAC]

I am not a pre-determinist. Isn't that a Presbyterian thing?

Not sure how many pre-determist theists there are on this forum to answer you.

As for me --------I don't understand the question. I have free will. I assume you think you do too.

I don't know what the future may bring. I don't think God does either------although He is probably a much better guesser than I am.

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by Valdemar
For instance, a xtian can pray for world peace, but that interferes with the master plan. However, praying for my uncle from Vietnam's arm to regrow doesn't interfere with the master plan, and thus this particular prayer is answered all the time.

(Sorry, couldn't resist that last part.)

Okay, I know what you're going to ask, so I'll beat you to it. Did god KNOW that my uncle was going to ask to have his arm regrown ahead of time?

Well, god is powerful enough to ignore those things not important to his masterplan, thus preserving free-will.

Remember, god answers all prayer, but sometimes the answer is "No."
:banghead: :banghead:

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by Valdemar

Remember, god answers all prayer, but sometimes the answer is "No."

I must commend you for this post. It definitely not the typical type of thinking that most associate with prayer. Usually prayer connotes getting what you want. Very nice. It shows the level of insight, being this statement came from a non-theist.

[Kilgore Trout]

Remember, god answers all prayer, but sometimes the answer is "No."

Yeah, and the odds of the answer being "no" is always based on the actual odds of the thing happening. For example if you pray for the sun to come up tomorrow the answer will be "yes". If everybody with a lottery ticket prayed to win $10,000,000, then only one of them will win it. Big surprise. With results like that that, it's clear that god doesn't answer any prayers.


In matthew 18:19 jesus says whenever at least two people pray for something god will grant the request. This proves that jesus doesn't know what he's talking about. This has been disproven over and over. For example millions of people were praying that JFK would not die after he was shot, but he died, so god must not have been listening. Jesus is supposed to part of a trinity with god and he is making promises that god can't keep. Maybe god should have briefed him on what he could do before he sent him to earth.

originally posted by Rational BAC
I don't know what the future may bring. I don't think God does either------although He is probably a much better guesser than I am.

How generous of you to say that the creator of the universe probably is a better guesser at the future than you. How can god be "perfect" if he doesn't even know the future?

[factfinder]

A better question would be in the form of a testimonial request:

"Who has had a prayer answered that they could discern as being a response from God?"

....Wait, don't look at me!

[variant 13]

Originally posted by Kilgore Trout
...if you pray for the sun to come up tomorrow the answer will be "yes".

In matthew 18:19 jesus says whenever at least two people pray for something god will grant the request. This proves that jesus doesn't know what he's talking about. This has been disproven over and over. For example millions of people were praying that JFK would not die after he was shot, but he died, so god must not have been listening. Jesus is supposed to part of a trinity with god and he is making promises that god can't keep. Maybe god should have briefed him on what he could do before he sent him to earth.


You just wait it might not now, anyway everyone knows the sun is pushed across the sky by a giant dungbeatle or is it drawn by a chariot? Damn those gods, make up your minds:mad: :D .

I think one of the reasons for the JFK praying not working coz he was dead about 0.1 seconds after the last bullet hit him.

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by Kilgore Trout
Yeah, and the odds of the answer being "no" is always based on the actual odds of the thing happening. For example if you pray for the sun to come up tomorrow the answer will be "yes". If everybody with a lottery ticket prayed to win $10,000,000, then only one of them will win it. Big surprise. With results like that that, it's clear that god doesn't answer any prayers.


Well put.