You SEEM like a good Christian man....

[Vicar Philip]

... is what the wife of an older gentleman in our church said to me when I told her I was an atheist. She seemed unable to accept that I could possibly be as good as I appear and not believe in even a "higher power" (the gentleman is a former alcoholic, AA and all that).

To further my "good Christian" image even more, I took my kids caroling with a few other families from our church. No, I don't believe in anything the carols stand for, but the old folks we sang to sure had smiles on their faces. That's what counts.

It's funny. When I think about my attitude a year ago compared to now, I've mellowed out on the "militant atheist" I once was and realized some things just really don't matter. The people closest to me at our church know I no longer believe, and though I'm not dying to go to church, I really don't mind going once in a while. It's a bit strange to listen to all the little chants and ceremonies everyone learns by rote and ask myself why I ever believed it.

So beware, fellow atheists! You, too, may SEEM like a good Christian, but WE all know the truth!

[KoopaFanatic]

Heh heh.

I got this a lot at the Boy Scout camp where I worked last summer. I wasn't out of the atheism closet, but a few people suspected. I overheard them having a conversation about me once while I was doing some maintenance.

"Wow. He seems like such a nice conservative Christian. Are you sure he's an atheist? Maybe he's just a Muslim or something?"

I laughed. And laughed. And laughed.

It was good to know that I didn't get read by the visiting troops, though. My acting abilities are still up to snuff, even though it's been a decade since high school drama :D

[Krosis]

Originally posted by KoopaFanatic
"Maybe he's just a Muslim or something?"

Considering all of the anti muslim sentiment that's been flying around the U.S. as of late (not that I support that of course..)

I found that amusing.

-cheers

[KoopaFanatic]

Yes, but even so anything's better than atheism ;)

In truth I was surprised that the scouts as a whole were generally pretty accepting of non-Christian theists. Over the course of the summer we had a few Jewish, Muslim and Hindu kids come through. The only time there was any strife over it was when the Mormons complained about the camp accomodating their dietary requests. This from the troops who threw off our entire schedule because they couldn't be bothered to come up and move in to their campsites on Sunday... :rolleyes:

[Ms. Siv]

The reaction I mostly get is ....

Either that I hold an extreme position and am therefore (somehow) unreasonable.

Or that I am trying to show off or be different.

Or that I have not yet suffered much in life and therefore dont realise the value of faith/god.



:rolleyes: :(

[Jet Black]

Originally posted by KoopaFanatic
Yes, but even so anything's better than atheism ;)

In truth I was surprised that the scouts as a whole were generally pretty accepting of non-Christian theists. Over the course of the summer we had a few Jewish, Muslim and Hindu kids come through. The only time there was any strife over it was when the Mormons complained about the camp accomodating their dietary requests. This from the troops who threw off our entire schedule because they couldn't be bothered to come up and move in to their campsites on Sunday... :rolleyes:

is the scouts really religious in the US or something? in the UK it is all about singing dirty songs and throwing the smallest members in the river. Aah scouts was ace.

[Eru]

In America the Scouts kick out atheists and gays. There are alot of lawsuits going on about it.

[jj]

Originally posted by Jet Black
is the scouts really religious in the US or something? in the UK it is all about singing dirty songs and throwing the smallest members in the river. Aah scouts was ace.

In the USA it is official Boy Scout policy that all atheists and gays are absolutely, positively, and unquestionably banned from any and all scouting activities whatsoever. They are not permitted to be members, they may not be associated with a troop, etc.

Some troops obey this only in the absense, of course, but the national organization claims it's private and so can discriminate as it wants.

The Citadel can't, but the Boy Scouts can. You figure.

[southernhybrid]

Yesterday I told two women I was an atheist and they said I was too smart to be an atheist. How do you like that one? :D

[Jet Black]

Originally posted by jj
In the USA it is official Boy Scout policy that all atheists and gays are absolutely, positively, and unquestionably banned from any and all scouting activities whatsoever. They are not permitted to be members, they may not be associated with a troop, etc.

Some troops obey this only in the absense, of course, but the national organization claims it's private and so can discriminate as it wants.

The Citadel can't, but the Boy Scouts can. You figure.

actually now I remember, a few years ago in the UK you used to have to make the oath to god, but then he was mercilessly chopped out after someone said they didn't want to. I thought of it as just words and couldn't care less who I was making the oath to (heh, I had to make the oath to the queen and her cream skimming family too) so long as I got to sing dirty songs and get chucked in the river (since I was the smallest one at the time)

[Jet Black]

Originally posted by southernhybrid
Yesterday I told two women I was an atheist and they said I was too smart to be an atheist. How do you like that one? :D

well if you are smart, you should realise that evolution is just a THEORY and is breaks the second LAW of thermodynamics, that something never comes from nothing and that the world is too beautiful to have just appeared by random chance!

[Dark Jedi]

Jet Black:
You forgot your smiley in that last post....:D

[Ennazus]

Originally posted by southernhybrid
Yesterday I told two women I was an atheist and they said I was too smart to be an atheist. How do you like that one? :D

I had one similar to that "You're too nice to be an atheist. Maybe you're just confused'.

I just told her that she was confused, if she thought atheists couldn't be nice people.

[Kevin]

I was told by one of my classmates in high school, when I told him I was an atheist, that I he thought I was an altar boy. :D

I've been frequently told that I'm "such a good Christian," especially by people who know that I volunteer with some charitable organizations.

And I was recently "blessed" by a woman who was carrying out several pizzas when I opened the door for her. She couldn't have possibly done it herself while carrying four large pizzas at the door. When she said "May God bless you," I couldn't resist saying "I'm an atheist, but thanks for the thought." And she looked a little surprised, but smiled, and said "Thank you. I appreciate it." I hope she went away with the thought that atheists are as capable of acts of kindness as anyone else. :)

[Aravnah Ornan]

People sometimes tell me that I've just earned my angel wings or some such thing. I just smile and nod or thank them. Maybe I'm not such a good atheist, but I just can't bring myself to butt heads with people who are being nice to me in the way that fits their beliefs.

[KoopaFanatic]

Well, for what it's worth the actual religiousness of the scouts varies from region to region. In fact, while National has a strict policy against atheists and gays, they can't actually enforce it - it's a "recommendation" that's actually enforced at the Council level, and they have the final say over who can be a member. Some Councils just shrug and ignore the recommendation, but they don't make a big deal out of it because if they make waves one way or the other the result won't be pretty.

Unfortunately, I was working for one of the hardcore councils. Hell, one guy tried to get me fired when he found out I was a vegetarian!

For the most part, older Scout leaders (the professionals at the Regional, Council and District levels) are extremely religious. This is largely due to the heavy Mormon influence at the National level. But at the Troop level it varies, since it depends largely on volunteer work from parents. The younger Scout leaders (camp staff members, assistant scoutmasters, stuff like that) are more likely to be sane: in my experience only about 25% are particularly religious, although for most of the rest it's a matter of "well I never really thought about it before" or "I'm spiritual, not religious."

But here's the dirty little secret of scouting: it's atheism boot camp. Boy Scout camp is the first place I ever met teenagers who self-identified as atheists or agnostics. Additionally, at the training program I had to go to I shared a campsite with twelve others, five of whom were gay and six of whom were atheists or agnostics (plus one Buddhist).

So while yes, National has some stupid policies, they're also quite out of touch with the realities of scouting at the local levels. It'd be nice if some of the current generation of young leaders would stay in and work for change...

[Hedwig]

And the Girl Scouts are actually pretty relaxed when it comes to atheist and gay members. They're almost the exact opposite of the Boy Scouts. I was a Girl Scout for many years and I cannot remember much of anything to do with religion in Girl Scouts. When we'd sing songs at camp after dinner, they were always all anti-war '60s-'70's era protest songs. And songs occassionally about our duty towards our fellow man. The most we ever had in the way of religion was grace before meals and non-Christian kids were exempt from having to say grace.

Strange how two very similar organizations can grow to be so different.

[Hobbs]

Originally posted by Hedwig
And the Girl Scouts are actually pretty relaxed when it comes to atheist and gay members.
Well, they didn't let me become a member.

'Course, the main reason I wanted to join was not nearly as interested in me as I was in her, so I guess it wouldn't really have done me much good anyway.

[ElectEngr]

A few weeks ago, when I went to a convienence (?) store to get some orange juice, the cashier was talking to a person in front of me, going on about god.

When it was my turn to check out, I go.."Another day, burgioning with the rippen fruit of opportunity to do great things for self and company".

To which he responds, "and god".

To which I respond "or the Invisible Pink Unicorn"

"Soda cracker...Wha..???" he come back.

"The Invisible Pink Unicorn", I retort.

He hands me back my change and says, "good luck with the Invisible Pink Unicor"

I smiled and walked out.

Later,
ElectEngr

[Godric Gryffindor]

ElectEngr: where does the "Invisible Pink Unicorn" analogy come from? I'm asking because I use the exact same example in similar scenarios, and I don't know where I read about it. Sagan uses an invisible flying dinosaur in his garage.

I'm a firm believer in the power of "wow." Call it an epiphany, call it satori- but to many, it's more powerful than rational debate. You might not swerve a xian's opinion on atheists through debate, but you will make a lasting impression by behaving with compassion and honor ("Christian values") and then, once "you seem like a good Christnan man", reveal that you are an atheist. If enough of us make such lasting impressions, then perhaps the xians will not automatically close their minds when they hear the word atheist, and then perhaps they'll be more prone to listen to reason.

[AspenMama]

Originally posted by Godric Gryffindor
ElectEngr: where does the "Invisible Pink Unicorn" analogy come from? I'm asking because I use the exact same example in similar scenarios, and I don't know where I read about it. Sagan uses an invisible flying dinosaur in his garage.
Ah well a brilliant friend of mine created this website a while back:

http://www.geocities.com/ipuprophecy/ipu.html

Unfortunately, it's a bit dusty in the forums these days. No one has smited the heretics lately...

Originally posted by Godric Gryffindor
I'm a firm believer in the power of "wow." Call it an epiphany, call it satori- but to many, it's more powerful than rational debate. You might not swerve a xian's opinion on atheists through debate, but you will make a lasting impression by behaving with compassion and honor ("Christian values") and then, once "you seem like a good Christnan man", reveal that you are an atheist. If enough of us make such lasting impressions, then perhaps the xians will not automatically close their minds when they hear the word atheist, and then perhaps they'll be more prone to listen to reason.
This is my philosophy exactly. I've been accused of being a good xian woman as well-- I've had differing reactions to my coming out as an atheist-- I did indeed become like the devil to one woman whom I eventually won over.

[ElectEngr]

Originally posted by Godric Gryffindor
ElectEngr: where does the "Invisible Pink Unicorn" analogy come from? I'm asking because I use the exact same example in similar scenarios, and I don't know where I read about it. Sagan uses an invisible flying dinosaur in his garage.



I got it from the Internet Indidels Discussion Forums. I hope I haven't violated anyone's copyrights by using it.

I tend to go with "Wow" too. Although my commission in the military said "presumed to be an officer and (fill in the blank)".

Later,
ElectEngr

[Shake]

Originally posted by jj
The Citadel can't, but the Boy Scouts can. You figure. I arrived in Charleston, SC right about the time of the whole Shannon Faulkner deal. And well jj, it figures like this: The Citadel receives state funding and therefore discrimination is illegal. The Boy Scouts are a private organization and thus they can, even though they are contradicting the values they teach.

[Shake]

Originally posted by Godric Gryffindor
ElectEngr: where does the "Invisible Pink Unicorn" analogy come from? I'm asking because I use the exact same example in similar scenarios, and I don't know where I read about it. Sagan uses an invisible flying dinosaur in his garage. You should take a look at the IUR (Institute for Unicorn Research) (http://www.geocities.com/ipuprophecy/ipu.html)
OR, these other IPU links (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=invisible+pink+unicorn&btnG=Google+Search)

[AspenMama]

Um I just posted that link above-- but that's okay. ;)

[Godric Gryffindor]

Originally posted by Godric Gryffindor
Sagan uses an invisible flying dinosaur in his garage.
That should be an invisible flying fire-breathing dragon in his garage.

** note to self: never post before coffee **

[AspenMama]

Originally posted by Godric Gryffindor
That should be an invisible flying fire-breathing dragon in his garage.

** note to self: never post before coffee **

Okay-- that clinks more with something in the back of my mind...

Have you tried the Starbucks xmas blend? Pretty good stuff.

[nj_heathens]

Originally posted by Shake
I arrived in Charleston, SC right about the time of the whole Shannon Faulkner deal. And well jj, it figures like this: The Citadel receives state funding and therefore discrimination is illegal. The Boy Scouts are a private organization and thus they can, even though they are contradicting the values they teach. The BSA can paint itself as a private organization all it wants, and you can continue to help the BSA perpetuate that lie, but that doesn't change the fact that it accepts an enormous amount of state funding, and federal perks as well. When the BSA, and the legislators who refuse to acknowledge the amount of taxpayer subsidy the BSA receives, are ready to refuse further state and federal aid, then I'll get off the BSA's back about its discriminatory practices....or probably not even then.

Mrs. Heathen

* Edited to add comment about perpetuating the BSA's privacy bullshit

[Malagasy Rain]

Originally posted by Vicar Philip
It's funny. When I think about my attitude a year ago compared to now, I've mellowed out on the "militant atheist" I once was and realized some things just really don't matter. The people closest to me at our church know I no longer believe, and though I'm not dying to go to church, I really don't mind going once in a while. It's a bit strange to listen to all the little chants and ceremonies everyone learns by rote and ask myself why I ever believed it.

I'm sorry but there is something about that "live and let live" attitude that really aggravates me.

[KoopaFanatic]

When the BSA, and the legislators who refuse to acknowledge the amount of taxpayer subsidy the BSA receives, are ready to refuse further state and federal aid, then I'll get off the BSA's back about its discriminatory practices....or probably not even then.

Yes, Mrs. Heathen is quite right on this one. The BSA may not be an actual government agency, but they get government funding and are about as private as your typical public radio station or state-supported university. Add to that the fact that they're publicly endorsed by every actual government agency, and you end up with some scout leaders who are in serious denial about their own organization.

I used to be seriously anti-BSA, but spending a summer working with the kids has left me with the conclusion that it'd be more useful to try to change the group from within than to protest and boycott. In the latter case I'd just be another liberal troublemaker, but in the former I can work to convert them, leading by example :D