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blindwatchmaker
December 22, 2003, 10:02 AM
It seems to me that given that there is so much we don't know about the universe, it is important to think about methods for finding truth.

Let us consider the two most common methods and evaluate them (as impartially as possible) on the basis of their merits and acheivements.

Method 1: Believing things by faith

What this means is believing things to be true even without a single shred of solid evidence because we have a strong "inside" feeling that it must be true.
It is not always the case that things believed by faith have totally no evidence but quite often there is none, or people can't agree on whether the evidence definitely justifies the belief.

Method 2: Believing things through evidence that supports the belief

What this means is that in order for an idea to be believed, there must be
some evidence available to justify the belief. Sometimes the idea comes after seeing the evidence (eg someone leaves a message on your answerphone and this is evidence that they have tried to contact you) and sometimes the idea comes before the evidence(eg you suspect that someone commited a crime and then find evidence that proves that they did, such as being caught on security camera).

Pretty much everything we claim to know comes as a result of these two processes. But as an approach to collecting knowledge, how do they compare? Are they just as good as each other? Both worthy of equal respect and acceptance?

Looking at what man has acheived in the way of knowledge about the universe and how it works, about ourselves, our bodies, the world around us and other important knowledge, how much has come from method 1 and how much from method 2? Which appoach has proved historically more "useful" and which has a higher error rate?

I think that any reasonable person would accept that evaluating ideas on the basis of evidence(method 2) has acheived much more "truth" about the world than belief through faith. If anyone challenges this assertion I would challenge them to come up with ten advances that we have made that have added to our understanding or quality of life that are based purely on faith.

There is another way in which belief through evidence is far superior to faith. This is that belief through evidence is "self policing". By this I mean that quite often, we have incorrect beliefs as a result of misinterpreting the evidence, or because we don't yet have the full picture. Then at some later stage, if new evidence comes to light we are forced to modify or abandon the original belief. The beauty of this system is that the incorrect beliefs get washed out of the system as time goes on, and only those that are extremely well founded are allowed to "stay in the club".

Does faith have any such filtering or quality control? I think not. If you were to take all the ideas that have been believed purely as a result of a "feeling inside" by all people throughout history to the present day, it would certainly be the case that most of them turned out not to be true. This may at first seem like an unproven assertion, but think about it. All the ancient civilizations with their war gods, sun gods and sky gods. All the people who burned innocent women and young girls for being "witches". All the witch doctors who claimed that a sick child could be cured by "shaking the leaves of the village tree over them" (before the child died), all the prophecies that have never come to pass (I've lost count of how many times the earth was meant to end), all the hunches that modern day people have that turn out to be untrue, all the money lost in gambling halls by people who "just have a feeling deep inside", all the different religions in the world who all believe their "inside feelings" just as strongly but by virtue of their different beliefs must contain a majority of people who belief falsehoods(If Islam is factually correct then all xtians must be wrong and vice versa etc..)
This list goes on. What's more, the strength or passion with which a feeling of faith is felt does not make it any truer.

There is another sense in which belief through evidence scores more highly than faith. This is in it's ability to make successful predictions. Almost all religions are filled with ambiguously worded prophecies of what is to come. The vast majority turn out to be either false, smudged(ie written after the event) or come true either by being worded generally enough that they were bound to, or by being obvious in the first place. The performance and accuracy of religious prophecies pales into limp significance against the pinpoint accuracy of scientific predictions. Show me a prophecy that will tell you to the nearest minute, what time a certain comet will appear in the sky over a point on earth in four hundred years. Basing beliefs on evidence allows predictions of this accuracy to be made every day.

It is my contention that given there is so much about the universe that we don't know (and perhaps never will) then if we want our beliefs to be true (rather than just fun and comforting whether true or not) we should adopt the approach to finding truth that is most likely to yield results. I find it hard to see how "faith" can reasonably be considered a realistic alternative to scientific method and evidence.

I am not a scholar of science or theology and if through lack of knowledge, I have under valued the power of faith to inform us of useful truths, then please educate me by telling me which ones it has given us.

There is one more point to note on this subject. People who claim to accept faith as a valid reason for believing, tend to be very selective about when to do this. At all other times, they too demand evidence. For example, if I were to say to a faith believer, "I'm sorry but your house has burned down" and they said "how do you know?", if I said "I just have a deep inside feeling that it has", they would think that I was a liar or insane. They would certainly take steps to see the evidence (blackened burned out shell etc) before contacting their insurers to make a claim. Why should some ideas demand evidence and others be exempt?


Some people with religious beliefs claim that their beliefs are founded not just on pure faith but on their interpretation of the available evidence. To them I would say that if they are 100% sure that they have researched the evidence through unbiased sources and still conclude that it points toward their religious beliefs being true, then the topic of debate should move to weighing up the evidence itself and exaiming the merits of the different interpretations to see which is more consistent and which scores better at making successful predictions etc.

In light of the above, I would love to hear a well reasoned argument that favours faith as an approach to truth.

(I have not posted this in S and S because I wish the focus of discussion to be on the merits/faults of faith that underpins religious belief)

Smidlee
December 22, 2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by blindwatchmaker
I.

Method 1: Believing things by faith

What this means is believing things to be true even without a single shred of solid evidence because we have a strong "inside" feeling that it must be true.
It is not always the case that things believed by faith have totally no evidence but quite often there is none, or people can't agree on whether the evidence definitely justifies the belief.

by the way, I thought I'll let you know that our(USA) Money System is TOTALLY based by FAITH ONLY :D . as matter of fact we have scientific proof that out money is totally worthless but yet if I had enough of it I could hire someone to kill and then have a good chance of buying the courts if I got caught. I doubt there is an atheist in here who wouldn't accept a million dollars for someone even though in reality it's totally worthless.( it's only worth what people believes it's worth)
So just because something it totally based on faith doesn't mean it has no power or value.

Pyrrho
December 22, 2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Smidlee
by the way, I thought I'll let you know that our(USA) Money System is TOTALLY based by FAITH ONLY :D . as matter of fact we have scientific proof that out money is totally worthless but yet if I had enough of it I could hire someone to kill and then have a good chance of buying the courts if I got caught. I doubt there is an atheist in here who wouldn't accept a million dollars for someone even though in reality it's totally worthless.( it's only worth what people believes it's worth)
So just because something it totally based on faith doesn't mean it has no power or value.

You could not be more wrong. Each of us who have used money has evidence that it is effective to get various things that we want. I hand the paper to someone, and I walk out of the store with what I want. I have done this myself countless times, and have seen others do it countless times. I know, from direct experience, that money works. I first observed this process as a child, and believed after seeing the evidence. It is not a matter of faith when most people believe that money will be accepted in exchange for goods and services.

You appear to be confusing the above with the fact that we cannot use the paper itself for very many things, and it is, qua paper, not very valuable. But that is irrelevant to its usefulness as a medium of exchange for goods and services. Indeed, its relative uselessness in itself is a virtue, as it then does not take up valuable resources to be wasted as a medium of exchange for goods and services, and it allows for the easy transfer of vast quantities of property.

Your example would be more dramatic if instead of cash you considered electronic transfers of money, where one gets a bank statement with different numbers printed on it than one would have without having gained the transfer. The difference there is not in getting any thing at that moment, but simply a different arrangement of ink on a piece of paper. That, of course, will mean that the bank tellers will give one more of other pieces of paper (or pieces of paper with larger numbers printed on them), which can then be exchanged for more goods than fewer pieces of paper. Of course, one might instead do another electronic transfer of funds to make some purchase. But those of us who have experience with banks know directly from our own experience how these matters work, so our belief that it works is based upon evidence, not "faith" or nothing.


For a link relevant to the original topic of this thread, see:

http://www.ethicsofbelief.com/

blindwatchmaker
December 22, 2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Smidlee
by the way, I thought I'll let you know that our(USA) Money System is TOTALLY based by FAITH ONLY :D . as matter of fact we have scientific proof that out money is totally worthless but yet if I had enough of it I could hire someone to kill and then have a good chance of buying the courts if I got caught. I doubt there is an atheist in here who wouldn't accept a million dollars for someone even though in reality it's totally worthless.( it's only worth what people believes it's worth)
So just because something it totally based on faith doesn't mean it has no power or value.

Umm, when I said I would like to hear a reasoned argument, I meant a statement that actually makes a point connected to reality.

Smidlee
December 22, 2003, 02:56 PM
edited : sorry i misunderstood you so i stay out of your post since you believe all faith is the same as fooliness.:(

Smidlee
December 22, 2003, 03:01 PM
there a big difference between Faith and Foolishness . some seem to think Faith is fooliness but My faith is just as real and proven over and over in my life. " Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hope for, the EVIDENCE of thing not seen." Blind faith isn't really faith at all so as a christian I'm totally againest blind Faith(foolishness).God hasn't asked anyone to follow him blind . As matter of fact Jesus restored a blind man sight so he could follow him ;)
Faith = trust ,confidence

braces_for_impact
December 22, 2003, 03:07 PM
Equivocation, pure and simple.

How often I have watched the faith debate. The definition always starts as belief in an unsupported assertion, and ends up as confidence or trust.

I said it once and I'll say it again. If you have evidence, if you have proof, faith is not required!

Anything else seems to me to be just various types of semantics or dishonesty.

One can have trust and confidence, and it can be misplaced, or be based on no prior experience, in this case it is still blind faith.

blindwatchmaker
December 22, 2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Smidlee
there a big difference between Faith and Foolishness . some seem to think Faith is fooliness but My faith is just as real and proven over and over in my life. " Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hope for, the EVIDENCE of thing not seen." Blind faith isn't really faith at all so as a christian I'm totally againest blind Faith(foolishness).God hasn't asked anyone to follow him blind . As matter of fact Jesus restored a blind man sight so he could follow him ;)
Faith = trust ,confidence

Smidlee
As tempted as I am to respond to this in an ascerbic and sarcastic tone, I shall not. Instead, I appeal to your sense of reason. You must see that even to discuss the actions of a man who may or may not have lived two thousand years ago means that you take the stories of the Bible to be true. The only basis for believing this is, I'm afraid, blind faith as there is no evidence to suggest that the claims of the Bible are anything more than myth.

If you are smart you will aknowledge this my friend.

Singularity
December 22, 2003, 07:37 PM
The primary problem with theistic faith is that it is completely and absolutely arbitrary. A theist can provide no basis for why he places faith in one set of religious fact claims but discards other sets of such claims. For example, put a Mormon and a Roman Catholic in a room and ask them to debate whether the Book of Mormon is valid. You'll be amused to no end.