Super fundy turns into super atheist.

[Rational BAC]

Most of the atheists, seemingly the vast majority, and many of whom who seem to hold the strongest anti-Christian views that post on this forum were originally literal fundamentalist Christians and seriously indoctrinated in their youth.

Any opinions on why this would be so? Makes no sense to me.

Why the 180 degree turn?

[mike_decock]

I think it's only logical that those who spent a large portion of their life, and whose lives mostly revolved around their faith, would feel the greatest sense of loss or resentment when they deconvert. Not only have you wasted a lot of time and effort, most of your old friendships will die out and it will create a rift between you and your family (assuming they are fundies, too).

-Mike...

[Athius]

Well I'd say there are two types of fundies. One is stubborn, ignorant, extremely one-sided and closes-minded fundy, and the other is non-stubborn, open-minded fundy.

Unlike the average believer, fundies tend to go more deeply into all the details of their religion and look at everything in depth, which could cause them to see the many errors and illogical parts of their religion and thus cause them to question their beliefs.

Non-fundies are just average Joes who call themsevles Christian, Muslim, Jewish, but never really take it seriously or literally, thus never having the chance to have their beliefs challenged.

Of course there are ex-non-fundy-thiests (like me) who just wanted to find the truth about important matters in life and were ready to challenge their beliefs.

[Rational BAC]

Or I could be wrong and it just seems that way that the atheists who feel the strongest feelings against theism and particularly against Christianity at one time in their lives had the strongest feeling for theism and particularly for Christianity.

Probably should start a poll just to see how many atheists on this forum were raised as literal fundamentalist Christians.

Now if I could just figure out how to do a poll----------

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Most of the atheists, seemingly the vast majority, and many of whom who seem to hold the strongest anti-Christian views that post on this forum were originally literal fundamentalist Christians and seriously indoctrinated in their youth.

Any opinions on why this would be so? Makes no sense to me.

Why the 180 degree turn?

The only true Christains are fundamentalists. Sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

I suppose the best explanation is that it is difficult to be a fundamentalist and remain religious. Since we took the Bible literally, it's hard to reconcile the horrors of the bible, including moral tenets, with reality. A cherry-picking Christian may not have this same problem.

[mike_decock]

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Now if I could just figure out how to do a poll----------

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/misc.php?s=&action=faq&page=3#polls

-Mike...

[jj]

Can't speak for anyone else, but I was intended to come out that way (super fundie) and let's say that I'm revolted by the whole thing. Still. Years later.

[Godless Wonder]

Disclaimer: I've never been a theist, so what follows is speculation, based on reading lots of decon stories on the web.

It makes lots of sense to me. If you're fundy, and you believe the Bible is literally true, including Noah's flood and all that kind of stuff, and invest lots of time looking at and learning the biased "evidence" heaped up to support these claims, the more you look the more you're likely to hit upon real science. When that happens, you'd find out that a lot of the "evidence" for the fundy case is pretty weak, and in some cases outright deceitful, and you'd likely feel that you'd been lied to. If all that stuff was supposedly truthful, and it proves not to be, and this book was supposed to be divinely inspired, and now it seems not to be, then the whole thing is suspect. Ultimately, to accept the Bible on any meaningfully religious level is to accept magic. When too much of the magic in the Bible gets in conflict with too much evidence, and you're forced to toss it out, it's a only one more short step to also concluding that there's no such thing as magic, and that all those other bits of magic in there are made up too. And if you start looking at the origins of the Bible, and at the writings of other religions, it all starts looking like mythology. Once a good portion of the Bible starts looking like mythology, a part which you'd previously thought to be the inerrant Word of God, then the whole thing starts looking like mythology. That'd be my guess.

Also, it occurs to me that since the fundy is asked to swallow quite a number of improbable "facts," it's only natural that some questions that need answering might arise in their minds, so then they may go looking. (This seems to be the jist of many fundy deconversion stories, they start poking around in science books, and more recently, on the internet.) If the liberal Christian doesn't swallow all that question-provoking stuff, they may simply never really go looking too hard, since they might not have so many quesitons. Perhaps that may be one reason you see fewer of them deconvert.

It will be interesting to see what the long term effect the internet has on religion. On the one hand, it allows people from all over the world to collide on message boards like this one in numbers and varieties which were heretofore impossible. And anyone who goes searching for answers can generally find what they want (and what they don't want) in just a few clicks of the mouse. On the other hand, religions can undoubtedly use it to their benefit as well.

[southernhybrid]

There are lots of atheist who were never fundies. My son and my husband are two that I know very well. Although I was a fundy, it's only been recently that I was anything more than a totally apathetic atheist. I just have much more time to waste online now that I hardly work for a living anymore. That has given me time to reevaluate my position and my feelings about Xianity. I think there are quite a few angry atheists here that were never fundies. People just have different personalities.

Btw, I have no problem with liberal Xians and I often feel closer to them philosophically than I do to many of the angry atheists. Be careful about the sterotypes you make about us. :p ;)

[Postcard73]

Well, I can speak only for myself, but I used to be a fundy and I've turned into a pretty hardcore atheist. I think I can explain this by looking at the way I live my life in general: I don't do anything halfway. I'm very passionate and intense about everything. When I was religious, I think it was inevitable that I would get caught up in fundamentalism sooner or later because fundamentalism takes religion so seriously. Similarly, now that I'm an atheist, I'm the same way. Given my personality, I think it was inevitable that I would swing just as far in the other direction once I began to doubt the existence of gods. Like I said, I just don't do things halfway...

[christ-on-a-stick]

I can definitely relate to what Postcard73 just posted about being a very passionate person and feeling very strongly about things.

However, I would like to point out that (speaking only for myself, of course), to translate that into being "angry" is a misrepresentation. Even occasionally expressing anger or resentment about personal experiences does not, in my view, rationalize characterizing one's whole persona as "angry".

Also, I think it is important to note that the term "anti-Christian" can be misleading, even unintentionally, and imply an attitude that is not necessarily present. I can honestly say that I am "anti-Christianity" because, frankly, I am "anti-untenable-truthclaims-presented-as-fact". ;) So it applies to a whole host of other "belief systems" as well, and not just Christianity. HOWEVER: I am *not* "anti-Christian" in the sense of referring to an individual who holds a particular belief. How on earth could I be? That would make me "against" my grandparents, for instance, whom I love dearly, and many lovely people that I know.

Just wanted to clarify that. Also, to Godless Wonder's post:

Amen.

:)

[Rational BAC]

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
I can definitely relate to what Postcard73 just posted about being a very passionate person and feeling very strongly about things.

However, I would like to point out that (speaking only for myself, of course), to translate that into being "angry" is a misrepresentation. Even occasionally expressing anger or resentment about personal experiences does not, in my view, rationalize characterizing one's whole persona as "angry".

Also, I think it is important to note that the term "anti-Christian" can be misleading, even unintentionally, and imply an attitude that is not necessarily present. I can honestly say that I am "anti-Christianity" because, frankly, I am "anti-untenable-truthclaims-presented-as-fact". ;) So it applies to a whole host of other "belief systems" as well, and not just Christianity. HOWEVER: I am *not* "anti-Christian" in the sense of referring to an individual who holds a particular belief. How on earth could I be? That would make me "against" my grandparents, for instance, whom I love dearly, and many lovely people that I know.

Just wanted to clarify that. Also, to Godless Wonder's post:

Amen.

:)

Poor choice of words on my part. Sorry. Really can't think of a good way to state what I meant in describing SOME of the ex-fundy turned atheists on this forum (not you).

Let's leave it at "strong atheist." for lack of any better term. And that doesn't really fit either.

(Probably "super atheist" does work the best.------since it has no real definitive meaning --just like "super fundy"--both terms I made up)

[christ-on-a-stick]

It's kinda funny because I've used the term "super fundy" quite frequently (mostly to describe some of my family members. As in, "fundy mom turns SUPERFUNDY!") However, I never thought of "super atheist" before. I kinda like it, cuz it sounds like it might come with some kind of super-powers. ;)

Anyway. Erm. Back to serious discussion...

I do think I get the gist of what you are talking about, RBAC, and I think Godless Wonder's post had a lot of good points. I think it's quite common and natural, for lack of a better term, for people to feel a bit "peeved" when they feel as though the wool has been pulled over their eyes. This may inspire some of what is seen as anger and contribute to an ex-fundy atheist's particularly strong feelings about what they see as a grand deception.

[Straight Hate]

I was a strong fundy at one point, but usually the only time I lapse into 'super atheism' is in response to the negative socio-cultural effects of Christianty, and not Christian theology itself.

[Adora]

I was never a fundy. Most of the atheists I know never were. Maybe I just mix in different circles than some here. I think the swing is thanks to both the extreme midnset of the individual and the possible bitterness involved with the "deconversion".

[SLD]

Originally posted by Athius


(snip)
Non-fundies are just average Joes who call themsevles Christian, Muslim, Jewish, but never really take it seriously or literally, thus never having the chance to have their beliefs challenged.

Of course there are ex-non-fundy-thiests (like me) who just wanted to find the truth about important matters in life and were ready to challenge their beliefs.

I think Athius hit the nail on the head. It's harder to challenge the beliefs of non-fundies. I didn't become a freethinker until much much later in life, in part because I could laugh at the fundies as much as any secularists. I merely accepted the parts of the story on "faith" knowing that they could never really be disproven, and thus I could accept them without giving up my basic scientific beliefs.

I made the point in a debate with some fundamentalists that you can't prove God exists, and you can't prove he doesn't exist; it's just something you believe on faith. True enough, responded one, but don't you believe it's such an important issue that you should do everything in your power to find out about to see if it is true?

It was hard to argue with that logic. It was then that I started studying the issue in more depth. I'm hardly an expert, but my studies led me much further away from religion than even I had anticipated. It would certainly shock her that I became a freethinker thanks to her advice.

To send a fundy over the edge, you merely need to make him a rationale person. Once they accept reason, it's hard for them to keep up the charade.

That's why I think you find more ex-fundies as atheists than others, although that may be too broad a generalization. I also think that is why ex-fundies can often be the most vociferously opposed to organized religion and christianity - it's like discovering that what you trusted most dear is all a charade, and now you can't forgive it for lying to you for all those years.

SLD

[Postcard73]

Reading Godless Wonder's post got me to thinking about another possible reason super-fundies turn into super-atheists, or at least appear to. I see a lot of comments from atheists suggesting that xians don't actually read the Bible, and I think that is often true. However, the vast majority of the fundies I have known read their Bibles all the time. They may be drawing the wrong conclusions, but they are still reading it and learning it. I used to have dozens of Bible verses memorized word for word to help me witness to people...

When a super-fundie turns into a super-atheist, they retain their deep knowledge of the Bible. As such, when they get into an argument over the Bible or Bible related concepts, they have a tremendous familiarity with the Bible that they can fall back on to make their arguments. I think this can have two results. First, this might give the appearance, justified or not, of super-atheism because the atheist has so much to say. Second (this is what I think GW was getting at), I think the amount of evidence that a super-fundie has can push them beyond weak atheism into strong, "militant" atheism...

Not sure if that sheds any more light, but there it is...

p.s. Concerning the use of the word "angry": I am a much more mellow person now than I ever was as a xian. Intense? Yes. Passionate? Yes. Pissed off? No. The reason for this is because I used to view most of the world as lost and doomed to spend eternity in hell. I felt so frustrated - tormented even - by the knowledge that I couldn't lead everyone to salvation. That is the one great weight that was lifted from my shoulders when I realized God did not exist...

[Lanakila]

In total agreement with the last post. I am not an angry atheist either, and I do have tons of Bible knowledge. I really did study the Bible, and my pastor taught it. I went to Bible College, so I have so much Bible knowledge that I can if I want to, whip a Christians butt in a debate.

I think if I would have remained a fundy Christian my son would have been an angry atheist. Because he didn't believe, but I was trying to guilt him into it. I sent him to camp to get him converted, and indoctrinated him by dragging him to church, and church events every chance I got. I think many of the angry atheists that used to be fundys were actually raised in fundy homes, or their parents or other family members are still fundy. They may be projecting their anger and frustration out on Christians and fundies they run into online. It is alot easier to speak your mind online btw. I say things online that I never would in person.

[braces_for_impact]

However, the vast majority of the fundies I have known read their Bibles all the time.

This is true, but in my experience, they only learn about their bible in a very rudimentary way. Like in your example, you learned verses to convert people. When you run into one that doesn't recognize biblical authority, these tactics fail.

The fundamentalists I've known (and once was) learn their bible in only certain ways. They may learn verses, they learn particular stories. They go to bible study and the group leader or pastor reads from the bible and then tells everyone in his bible study group what it means. Sure he may accept some input, but by and large he guides the entire process.

Most fundamentalists I have known know very little bible history or ancient history, and these are key to really understanding those texts.

Besides atheists, the next most knowledgable group I have found about the bible are usually very liberal Christians. This may have to do with being a biblical leteralist. It's such a black and white world to a fundy. Why research what it could mean if you are given the meaning and there is no variance allowed from that definition?

As far as super fundy to super atheist, I think part of it is being angry over having the wool pulled over your eyes. It's also partly because those that claim the ONE and ONLY inroad to morality are the same that turn out to (in many cases) be the most dishonest. The hypocrisy enflames the emotions.

And for some, I think it's because they don't like who they used to be. When I look back at some of the opinions I had, and what I called "morality" it makes me shudder. How unkind I really was, how caloused. You soon learn to recognize that in other theists. And just like I used to be able to spout off some incredibly insensitive stuff without even realizing how insulting I was being, I have learned to recognize that attitude in other theists now.

I have first hand knowledge what these people would do with real power, and trust me it's very scary.

Magus55 comes to mind here. (Not to pick on you solely Magus, but there are reasons I've had very few exchanges with you.) His attitude is very reminiscent of the way I once was, and I avoid contact with him for that reason. What I see in Magus now is what I find most repugnant in fundamentalism today, and the way I used to behave. It would be very difficult for me to treat him with respect and dignity when he says the many things he does.

[Jamie_L]

I don't have any experience with this type of deconversion, but most of the comments here make sense.

When you have an inflexible belief system, it cannot bend to accomodate changes in belief/perspective. It can only break.

Furthermore, many fundamentalist systems put great restraints on one's actions and lifestyle. They also often have strong moral opinions about things that, from a secular perspective, aren't even moral issues - or sometimes are outright immoral. So, switching from one side to the other can make one realize how awful things were back on the other side of the fence. Especially if one spent many years devoted to this system (now viewed as, at least misguided and unpleasant, or at worst downright vile), one can be very upset about that lost time and all the things one was forced to experience.

This can be seen even with believers who deconvert from extreme religions to more mainstream religions. The most outspoken critics of Mormonism are usually ex-Mormons. Likewise with Scientology.

Jamie

[callmejay]

Although I wasn't a fundy Christian, I used to be an Orthodox Jew. I think that the reason is that we are taught a very specific form of religion and also taught that every other form is wrong. When the inevitible (for some of us) conflicts between what we learn about the world and what we are taught by our religion arise, we can't just pick-and-choose like a liberal theist. I couldn't say, "Well, I just won't believe in the part of the bible that says gay people should be killed," because my religion taught that all of the bible was true. Therefore, when I decided I didn't believe in some of it, I quickly realized I didn't believe in any of it. I sort of already was an atheist except for being Orthodox Jewish since I believed that Muslims, Christians, Hindus, reform and conservative Jews, etc. were mistaken in their beliefs. When the OJ fell, all that was left was the atheism.

[Postcard73]

Originally posted by braces_for_impact
This is true, but in my experience, they only learn about their bible in a very rudimentary way.I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I want to expand on this comment. Consider this example: I play the guitar. When I first started, I didn't take lessons. I just sat down with a song book, a chord chart, and a cheap guitar and started strumming. I did this for a year and developed some solid rudimentary skills. However, I lacked any real comprehension of what I was doing. After I'd been playing for a while I took two lessons. Almost instantly I transformed into a much better musician. I had the skills before I took the lessons, I just wasn't approaching the instrument with the right mindset until I took them. I think this is similar to what happens when a fundy deconverts to atheism. They have all this knowledge of what the Bible says, but all of a sudden, they're examining it from the proper perspective. In addition, I know that when I started deconverting, my familiarity with the Bible played a major role in my inability to stop deconverting. It was like my disbelief in the Bible grew exponentially. Again, I think that was a big part of what Godless Wonder was saying...

Here's another thought about why super-fundies turn into super-atheists: As a fundy, I attended a very evangelical church. Aside from the personal spiritual growth of the members of the church, witnessing was the most heavily stressed aspect of being a xian. (For that matter, witnessing was considered integral for spiritual growth). The thing about evangelism, though, is that very few people like to be told, especially by a complete stranger, that they are going to hell. As such, I think that a lot of evangelistic fundies grow quite accustomed to being very confrontational about religion. I know from personal experience that I have remained confrontational even though I am now an atheist. That might be why some super-atheists come across as angry when they really aren't.....

[openeyes]

Maybe super-fundies become super-atheists more quickly because of the reasons mentioned, but given enough time and exposure to others who also lack supernatural beliefs, I think many of us become strong atheists.

I was raised conservative Catholic but not given the idea that science was bad. I realized on my own at 17 that a godless world made more sense than the one that was presented by everyone around me. I kept this thought to myself for years and years and played along to get along. Finally after some connections to some local atheists groups I was able to stand on my own and tell my family I'm not a believer. I'm much more open to telling others because I think they need to see that atheists can be successful members of society. (IIDB has also made me stronger.)

I mostly get angry when we get a message from society that non-believers are less moral than believers and therefore inferior people. Why should my intelligent, rule-abiding kids have to make a point not to pledge to a flag of a nation "under god"? Why should a person's secular outlook (such a Dean's) be a problem for people in choosing a leader when it seems to lead to better decisions? There are so many assumptions regarding belief made by the majority of American society that it's frustrating to see things otherwise.

[Queen of Swords]

Fundamentalism, to me, was an extremely rigid structure, whereas liberal christianity is more elastic, and better able to cope with the slings and arrows of outrageous reality. ;) I think that if I had been a liberal christian, I would have found some way to fit people of other beliefs into heaven, to accept evolution and so on. Being a fundamentalist, I had no such option.

[Gunnaheave]

One of my old professors used to say that opposites are alike, except in one respect. I think it would be pushing the point too far to suggest it's naturally that simple, but conflict is constructed just like any other element of meaning. Where people clash over one thing, they have often implicitly agreed to a number of others. In this respect, I think for example a certain penchant for literalism is central to both fundamentalism and atheism. Where liberal Christians make it a virtue to interpret scriptural passages in metaphorical terms it is much harder to nail them down on any given point. Fundamentalists tend to interpret specific scriptues in less than literal terms, at least when it's inconvenient, but in principle they will take a stronger stand on a number of issues. Thus, I can identify with their sense of teh debate when we discuss what those passages mean. I share more values with liberal Christians and Pagans, etc., but I have less of a sense of what they mean when they talk about religious issues.

[Waning Moon Conrad]

Originally posted by Valdemar
The only true Christains are fundamentalists. Sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

I suppose the best explanation is that it is difficult to be a fundamentalist and remain religious. Since we took the Bible literally, it's hard to reconcile the horrors of the bible, including moral tenets, with reality. A cherry-picking Christian may not have this same problem.

Maybe I'm a fundamentalist Buddhist.

I really cannot agree that somebody who does not believe in transmigration and does not believe in karma has any right to call themselves a buddhist, yet many do.

[Gawen]

I tend to think the change is a bit like politics sometimes. You vote one way for so long. And those in power just don't seem to do what they said they would, or least good enough for you. It makes one consider the opposition. Of course, this is just one analogy. I think also the 180 change is due to some sort of cataclysm, whether personal or not (which is why I think an unbeliever changes to a believer).
There are so many ways a believer will change to whatever their current belief is or lack of belief.

[Viking]

This question would make an interesting study, that is, testing the hypothesis that the "strength" of one's atheism is correlated with the strength of some previously held deist belief. A good operational definition of strong atheism would need to be developed. In fact, perhaps someone here would like to take a stab at that.

In the meantime, I would suggest that former fundies know the real danger of those beliefs better than those of us who were raised, or were, lukewarm Lutherans, for example. Personally, I have become more open with my atheism as I see the frightening rise of fundamentalism because I really do believe it is extremely dangerous in so many ways.