Mail Call.... I am rather pissed.

[ShadowF0x]

First off I wasn't sure where to put this thread, but I will go ahead with it anyway.

Today I was watching mail call a show I watch a lot on the History Channel(being my favorite channel). Today's episode was a christmas episode and one of the events being covered was the Christmas truce between the Germans and British on one of the Belgium Fronts. While commenting on why there weren't any other Christmas truces during the war, Ermey said "The chances of there being another Christmas Truce were about as likely as an ATHEIST IN A FOXHOLE".......... was this some kind of indirect attack on atheists????

This comment just kind of rather touched a nerve on me. I remember not to long ago there was a thread on this site where in which a number of atheists in our armed forces had posted. I guess R. Lee Ermey thinks anyone who doesn't believe in his god doesn't have the courage to fight for their nation.

I guess I have a letter to write to Mail Call myself.

[jafosei]

I think the "atheist in foxholes" comment refers to the idea that when people are in a situation where they fear for their lives, where they think they might die at any given moment, they are suddenly likely to pray to God even if they hadn't been very religious in the past. You know, a "just in case" belief that pops up in cases of extreme fear.

As such, I don't think it's an attack on atheists. But I could be wrong.

People also tend to develop other superstitious beliefs when they live in uncertain circumstances too, not only beliefs relating to religion.

[Rational BAC]

I think the railing against the old "no atheists in a foxhole" is a little overdone.

Simply means that when faced directly with your own mortality---whether as a soldier in foxhole, or looking directly at a car coming at you in a head on collision, or jumping out an airplane and finding that your primary parachute did not open or finding yourself in the path of an oncoming tornado--------or any number of possibilities having nothing at all to do with the bravery or religion or lack thereof of soldiers. ----------

--------Faced with the possibility of an imminent end to anyone's life---you start taking the possibility of an afterlife very seriously.

And that is all there is to that. Nothing more.

[Calzaer]

Faced with the possibility of an imminent end to anyone's life---you start taking the possibility of an afterlife very seriously.

There are a whole shitload of people on this board alone who will tell you that's a blatant falsehood.

[JGL53]

Originally posted by Rational BAC
...Simply means that when faced directly with your own mortality---whether as a soldier in foxhole, or looking directly at a car coming at you in a head on collision, or jumping out an airplane and finding that your primary parachute did not open or finding yourself in the path of an oncoming tornado--------or any number of possibilities having nothing at all to do with the bravery or religion or lack thereof of soldiers. ----------

--------Faced with the possibility of an imminent end to anyone's life---you start taking the possibility of an afterlife very seriously.

And that is all there is to that. Nothing more.

Actually, I would think that those who find themselves in emergency situations such as the ones you describe don't really have time to ponder the possible ramifications of their deaths - they are too busy trying to survive and figure out a way out of their jam.

The christian who originally coined the "there are no atheists in foxholes" smear was projecting, i.e., expressing his own fear of death. He figured that everyone and anyone faced with imminent death in a crisis situation would shit their britches just like he would. Apparently, a LOT of christians agree and have helped to continue the spread of this ridiculous old shibbolith.

And that is all there is to that. Nothing more. :D

[wade-w]

My own personal experience provides a counter example, RBAC. When I was 17, I was in an auto accident. Once it started, I had no control over events, and no way to gain control. Literally, all I could do was sit there and wait it out. I was absolutely certain I was about to die. I was very calm and relaxed. I still remember what I was thinking as if it happened this afternoon; my thoughts were an expression of extreme agnosticism.

Well, this is it. I guess it's time to find out who is right!

[trendkill]

Originally posted by Rational BAC

--------Faced with the possibility of an imminent end to anyone's life---you start taking the possibility of an afterlife very seriously.
I have been in situations where I believed my life was in danger while a theist and while an atheist. My experiences support the "theist projecting his own fears/inclinations" hypothesis; when I was religious and in danger, I took the idea of an afterlife more seriously than usual. While an atheist and in danger, my degree of belief in an afterlife did not change at all.

[ShadowF0x]

I have been in a couple situations where for a brief instance I thought I might die and in none of them did I ever think to myself relating to a god or gods. It was more along the line of "HOLY SHIT I AM SCREWED!!" ........maybe you would start to break down in prayer, but I wouldn't........

Personally, I think Atheists would be the ones in the Foxholes seeing how Christians seem unafraid to die.

I guess I am the only person who felt angered by Ermey's statement. The way he said it by no means shows that he meant it in the way jafosei or Rational BAC explained it. "More likely than an Atheist in a Foxhole"........... I guess I am just making a big deal out of nothing.

[ShadowF0x]

I have been in a couple situations where for a brief instance I thought I might die and in none of them did I ever think to myself relating to a god or gods. It was more along the line of "HOLY SHIT I AM SCREWED!!" ........maybe you would start to break down in prayer, but I wouldn't........

Personally, I think Atheists would be the ones in the Foxholes seeing how Christians seem unafraid to die.

I guess I am the only person who felt angered by Ermey's statement. The way he said it by no means shows that he meant it in the way jafosei or Rational BAC explained it. "More likely than an Atheist in a Foxhole"........... I guess I am just making a big deal out of nothing.

For the record my own uncle is an atheist and he served in Vietnam as a marine, meaning he was in the Jungles fighting for his life.

[Rational BAC]

Obviously general statements of this kind don't work. ---- "There are NO atheists in foxholes." They never work because there are always exceptions.

You could however say that there are few atheists in foxholes.

[Jack the Bodiless]

It would be at least as accurate to say that there are no Christians in foxholes.

A person cowering in a foxhole is AFRAID that he is going to die. Why be afraid, if he's sure there is a nice afterlife waiting for him?

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by ShadowF0x
I guess I am just making a big deal out of nothing.
It seems reasonable that the commentator was just reaching for a phrase everyone understands as "very unlikely," and the foxhole/trench assocation was overwhelming.

But I agree with you, it's kind of insulting. It shouldn't be used. Just like you can't say, "I jewed him down to $20," anymore.

Atheists are the last social group it is acceptable to discriminate against.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
It would be at least as accurate to say that there are no Christians in foxholes.

A person cowering in a foxhole is AFRAID that he is going to die. Why be afraid, if he's sure there is a nice afterlife waiting for him?
:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

For that matter, why the heck is the Christian shooting at the other side? Isn't that kind of, well, un-Christian, to be trying to kill somebody you don't even know, who is only there because somebody else made him be there?

What's the point of fighting, anyway? Won't God set it all right in the end anyway? Isn't the sin of violence worse than any short-term, temporal good that could come of it? Isn't the Christian's job to show, by example, that violence is not necessary?

You know... there is a sect that teaches exactly this. They are called the Quakers. They are the ones who opposed slavery first, who worked tirelessly for the equality of all, who practice pacifism and refrain from judging. They are the ones who create the reputation that every other brand of Christian lives off of. But of course, the Quakers are far to polite to complain about it.

[Calzaer]

You could however say that there are few atheists in foxholes.

And it would be a completely meaningless statement. There are "few atheists" anywhere.

[Abalone]

There AREN'T any atheists in foxholes. They're out charging the enemy line, scattering bullets left and right, while the pussy theists are cowering in their foxholes!

[Wayne Delia]

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Obviously general statements of this kind don't work. ---- "There are NO atheists in foxholes." They never work because there are always exceptions.

You could however say that there are few atheists in foxholes. You could also say that there are many Christians who died in foxholes, after fervently praying that they would be spared from being killed.

WMD

[NeoApostate]

Originally posted by ShadowF0x
I guess I am the only person who felt angered by Ermey's statement. The way he said it by no means shows that he meant it in the way jafosei or Rational BAC explained it. "More likely than an Atheist in a Foxhole"........... I guess I am just making a big deal out of nothing.

Perhaps you are overreacting. But then again, one could argue that a lot of people, when faced with horrors such as war, lose faith in their God.

So the question is, if it were a popular cliche to say 'there are no theists in foxholes' or more personal 'there are no Christians in foxholes,' do you think Christian soldiers would be offended? I think they would. And I think a whole lot of them would be writing some pretty pissed off letters to Mail Call.

[Wayne Delia]

Originally posted by NeoApostate
Perhaps you are overreacting. But then again, one could argue that a lot of people, when faced with horrors such as war, lose faith in their God. Is that really an accurate statement? You bet your ass it is!

I know of several veterans of the Vietnam War who personally disavowed their theism (mostly Christianity) based on their combat experiences. Movies such as Platoon, Apocalypse Now, Hanoi Hilton, and (especially) Full Metal Jacket depict the same sentiment, and very few (if any) veterans criticized that as unrealistic.

WMD

[parkdalian]

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Obviously general statements of this kind don't work. ---- "There are NO atheists in foxholes." They never work because there are always exceptions.

You could however say that there are few atheists in foxholes.

Assuming that you mean few atheists relative to their proportion.

I think you are not so much underestimating atheists as you are underestimating the capacity of human beings in general to adapt to their circumstances. I'm sure that a typical uncommitted nonreligious person may revert to childhood training facing an imminent death situation and become instantly more attracted to theism and afterlife beliefs. But for a thoughtful atheist the prospect of dying has most likely been long accepted as inevitable. We are in no suspense about our ultimate fate. Christians seem incapable of facing or grasping true cessation of existence, and so fail to see our perspective on death.

We don't fear death as much as Christians think we might, partly because we are acclimated to our own concept of death. For atheists, there might actually be less anxiety involved because of the lack of suspense. When you die, that's it--no judgement, no prospect of hell, no worrying about loved ones going to hell or whether there's a golf course in heaven etc.

I also find it interesting that some Christians find death so terrifying, that it must scare atheists into belief. If it is that terrifying to Christians, then maybe they aren't so sure about an afterlife themselves. When Christians have doubts about there beliefs, the natural potential of death scares them, a kind of withdrawal symptom, so they again believe. And so they assume that atheists can be frightened into belief in the same way, but we just aren't hooked on the same drug.

[Blue Sabbath]

I love Gunnery Sargeant "Gunney" R. Lee Ermey. If I was 18 when "Full Metal jackst" came out and I was in peak physical shape, I would of joined the Corps.

Fortunately for me, I have never been in a war, and hope I never will. I am 36 years old and too old to join the service (over 34). Ermey has been in Vietnam and was injured there, I believe somewhat severely. The Corps teaches about God, maybe in a twisted way to us civilians, but Yahweh is the head bulldog. Watch "Full Metal Jacket" with Ermey. Ermey more or less written and/or ad-libbed the part of D.I. Gunny. Sgt. Hartmann, because he thought Kubrick's script was very much lacking .Actually Kubrick's D.I. was MORE SADISTIC, and Ermey said so, in one case Kubrick was going to have the DI shove the retarded private's head in a toilet as punishment, but Ermey said that was never done, even in the old days.

Hartman (Ermey) speaks about the Commander in Chief (God)

"God has a hard on for Marines, because we kill everything we see. He plays his games, we play ours. To shopw our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls. God was here before the Marine Corps, so you can give your heart to Jesus, but your ass belongs to the Corps!"

To Pvt. Joker (the lead character played by Matthew Modine)

Hartman "Pvt. Joker, do you believe in the Virgin Mary?"

Joker "Sir, no sir!"
(To paraphrase the scene, Hartman slapps Pyle and says:)

Hartman: "Why you little maggot, you make me want to vomit!" SLAP!

Hartman (again): "You goddamned Communist heathen, you better sound off that you love the Virgin Mary, or I am gonna stomp your guts out!"

Love that movie

Blue

[Ronin]

You could also say that faced with impending death...everyone becomes an atheist and tries to stay alive in this material world as it becomes apparent that no deities are coming to help.

Later, if you survive, you could then claim to have been saved by the deity of your choice so that you could show everyone that you are supernaturally gifted.

Nah...what am I saying?

There would be no appeal for anyone to do that.