Conflicting Emotions about a Church

[auto-da-fe]

My wife and I used to go to this presbyterian church a ways down the road from us. She has a few long-time friends that go there, and I went simply because my wife asked me to. Anyway, as churches go, this one is fairly nice. Very foward thinking, doesn't try to push God on everyone else, just if you want to you can come there.

Anyway, I went about 2 or 3 times a month for about 6 months, but then stopped, and my wife also doesn't go as much, but she has been pressing me to go back (been at least 6 months since we went there).

My initial reaction is to say no, simply as a matter of principal. However, today a lady comes to Catle MegaDave and has these three HUGE bags of presents for the Megaoffspring (3 girls, 5, 3, & 1). It was such a nice gesture, I cannot help but feel thankful for it. My wife and I are not exactly hurting for money, so at first I was a felt a little guilty abou it, but the lady from the church assured my wife that it wasn't for the charity portion of the Church, and that they had seperatly given $250,000 to local charities. This was just simply a nice gesture that some members of the church decided they wanted to do. She never went into details about why we specifically were chosen to be the benefactors of this beautiful gesture.

However, I am a cynical, jaded bastard, so my first thought was that it was an attempt to "bring us back into the fold" so to speak. The friends I mentioned before (the ones of my wife's who convinced us to go to this church in the first place) have often asked us why we stopped going, and have asked us repeatedly to come back. I may be paranoid (or just cynical and jaded ;) ), but it isn't out of the realm of possibilities.

Still, though, I am half tempted to go back. I doubt very seriously that I will ever believe in god or christianity as a whole, but at the same time, I can see little harm in this particular church. They are extremely nice people. None of them have ever witnessed to me. Even the minister (priest? father? what ever they are supposed to be called, I can never remember) has never actually gone out of his way to bother me about religion.

Anyway, what are some of your guys' opinions on this?

[AspenMama]

Originally posted by MegaDave
However, I am a cynical, jaded bastard, so my first thought was that it was an attempt to "bring us back into the fold" so to speak. The friends I mentioned before (the ones of my wife's who convinced us to go to this church in the first place) have often asked us why we stopped going, and have asked us repeatedly to come back. I may be paranoid (or just cynical and jaded ;) ), but it isn't out of the realm of possibilities.
Well, I'd have to admit to a bit of cynicism were I in your shoes... but on the other hand-- it sounds like you and your wife enjoy the social aspect a bit. You've got to consider how it will affect your girls of course-- good or bad.

[Viti]

My agnostic dad used to go to church with my Sunday School teacher mom occasionally (usually when there was a potluck ;)). They all knew he didn't believe...they were just nice people and were always pleased to see him.

[The Other Michael]

Hi MegaDave,

IIRC from my Psych classes, a behavior that gets irregular/infrequent positive reinforcement will take longer to extinguish than one that gets positive reinforcement every time (though I can't remember why that is).

So if you wish to encourage them to buy presents every year, just show up in church now and then.

cheers,
Michael

[jafosei]

However, I am a cynical, jaded bastard, so my first thought was that it was an attempt to "bring us back into the fold" so to speak.

Human motivation tends to be complex, and rarely does an act have a single, easily described motivation.

The members of a church I used to attend would often perform kind acts for people in the community. Generally speaking, the people doing the good deeds were kind and generous, and enjoyed making things a little nicer for others. There was also the hope that this kindness would make people interested in the church, maybe enough to come by for a look (and if they happened to take Christ as their saviour, so much the better, right?). It was also seen as a way to fulfill their Christian duty to love one's neighbour as oneself.

It sounds like the church you're dealing with is pretty low-key and non-confrontational (much as my church was), so I would probably take the gesture as primarily motivated by kindness and a desire to socialize with you again. At some level, they probably hope that you will spend enough time with them that you will convert, but it's not neccessarily the biggest reason for the gift.

My opinion: if you're interested, go ahead and drop in for some services. The social aspect of church can be fun, and sometimes you meet some very interesting people. You can always stop going if you find it uncomfortable or if their attitudes change. But don't feel the need to go out of obligation for the gifts; such gifts require no repayments.

[sbaii]

I agree with Jafosei. They are trying to entice you back into the fold, you little lost sheep you. Only you know if the church offers you any social benefits. Personally, I don't like religious rituals because I can't say what is on my mind. Churches don't tend to encourage discussion on religion. They don't want to do anything to hurt their business. It'd be great if people could just respect the atheist's choice to not believe as a matter of conscience. I find their need to believe out of fear of eternal damnation childish and craven. And they also don't want to know too much for fear of losing their faith and thereby lose heaven.

[Gawen]

I met someone a couple years ago. She invited me to her church-Cumberland Presby type. It's a little more 'intense' than your average Presby. I went three times and each time I left in the middle of the service. I just can't sit, even for an hour, and listen to it. I just can't. It makes me


:mad:


But, I didn't have a wife that asked me to attend either. Therein, I think, lies your chief predicament. How to appease your wife and those that sent you the gifts. I would simply write a thank you note and send it to the persons that sent you the gifts. And although you and your wife may enjoy the communal aspects, making friends and attending outings, you still have to suffer the trappings. Perhaps you could still go out with those you like, but in a purely secular way? I have many Xtian friends, or shall I say psuedo-Xtian friends that I run around with and hardly does the topic of religion come up. AND they all know my stance on the subject.
It's the wife factor that I would be mostly worried about. Not whether or not THEY thought I was snubbing their gesture. Still, nice as the gesture of the gifts are, it's a ploy to have you come back.

[seebs]

From what I understand, it sounds like the objection on principle is your only real objection, and it doesn't sound like it's a very strong objection; it's not as though you're a member of a different religion, you just don't really believe what they say. I'd probably go at least occasionally, on the grounds that it appears it might please your wife. Be up front about this not meaning you're "converting", and it's probably harmless enough, and might make a few people happy at a very low cost to you.

[BrianTerrel]

If you can stomach the church services i would go for it. It'd be a nice gesture for your wife at the very least. As seebs noted, its an easy way to make someone close to you happy.

Personally I can't stomach church services ( too much christian camp growing up ) and my temperment is such that i will start philosophical arguments with the church attendees.

[sakrilege]

Originally posted by MegaDave
... three HUGE bags of presents for the Megaoffspring (3 girls, 5, 3, & 1). I'll even be more cynical and say they are trying to influence your children unduly.

[sbaii]

You're absolutely right, sakrilege. That's low, getting at you through your kids. Fortunately they are still pretty young, but I wouldn't want to do anything to encourage this gift-giving. You're going to have to deal with the question of religion when your kids go to school. I just told my kids that the Bible has some good ideas and some bad ideas.But you don't have to believe everything in the Bible because "It ain't necessarily so". Then you can launch into the song. :)

[Proxima Centauri]

Is there any reason why your wife can't go to that church on her own if she's so keen. It should be up to you whether or not you take part in religious or superstitous practices.
If you don't mind going to church you can go there from time to time. If you don't like it stay away.
Watch out that they don't brainwash the kids though.

[auto-da-fe]

sorry guys, was out of touch since last wednesday, and couldn't reply....

couple of things...

Is there any reason why your wife can't go to that church on her own if she's so keen. It should be up to you whether or not you take part in religious or superstitous practices.

and to similar comments....

My wife and I have hashed over this quite a bit, and she is only a borderline xtian.... more agnostic than anything. She sort of believes that the most likely is some sort of supernatural being out there, but she doesn't profess to be christian (or any religion for that matter). She tends to be a little more open minded about it than I do however, so she likes to go to church every now and again, just to make sure she hasn't changed her mind. I don't mind going, so long as it isn't very often, and to be honest, we almost always leave early because the kids start to get cranky. My wife is not what you would call a critical thinker, and can be persuaded to believe certain things, but, some of my jaded thoughts have rubbed off on her, and she will not ever be a full blooded xtian I think.

But, as any long-time married man can tell you, sometimes you gotta do things you don't want to do just to make your wife happy, and I don't mind this too awful much. Mostly because this church seems exceedingly progressive, and have never harped on me about my beliefs (even though at least 6 people, and probably more, are fully aware of my agnostic/atheistic ways).

I'll even be more cynical and say they are trying to influence your children unduly.

:o :o

Gee thanks, I hadn't even thought of it that way.

Thankfully, my kids had no idea where the presents came from. As far as they are concerned, Santa gets all the credit (even the ones mom and dad bought for them).

I know my kids are pretty young and all, but I can already tell that my 5 year old is not going to be religious, and my 3 year old is doubtful as well. Caitlyn, the 5 year old, has already told me that she thinks god and jesus are fairy tales, and that they live in the same place that her imaginary princess friend does.

I have been thinking about how I will approach the subject of religion when it comes to my kids, and it is going to be kind of thorny. I am going to let them make their own decisions, but I doubt very seriously that I will be able to stop myself from trying to persuade them one way or another. I really don't want to see one of my kids become fundified.



For now, with this church, it isn't really a big deal because the wife hasn't bothered me about going for some time. If she asks, I will probably go, and I will most certainly send them a nice thank you card for the gifts. It still leaves an odd taste in my mouth though that I just can't place. I guess I am just too cynical to think that someone can do something so nice without having some ulterior motive.

BTW, I didn't get reciepts or anything, but I guarntee you they spent at least $300 or more on my kids. My 3 year old got a jacket that had a price tag on it still. $60. Just for one jacket. That doesn't include all the toys, shoes, clothes and jackets for the other 2 as well.

[Bright Life]

As an atheist child forced to go to Sunday school, I implore you, do NOT subject your children to this. Sunday school teachers can be nasty to children who question their religion. Give them the opportunity to think for themselves, and, of course, sleep in on Sunday.

As for you, I say, do as you like. But I'd probably have a philosophical discussion or two with the wife about WHY exactly she wants to go to church. You may be able to get the same kind of socialization in other, more palatable venues.

BL

[auto-da-fe]

Bright Life -

I don't force my kids to go to Sunday School. IF (and that is a big if) we go to church, they sit with us the entire time. While I try to be open minded, and am trying very hard to let my kids make their own decisions, I think sunday school is an unfair advantage. I would only allow them to go to sunday school if my wife would allow me an hour or two after every session to de-programme my kids. If I could sit with them and show them why each of the bullshit lines given by the sunday school teacher is little more than fairy tales, then I may be willing to let them go. If I cannot dispute what the sunday school teacher has tried to brainwash them with, then I am not going to let them go.

Trust me, I had to go to sunday school on many occasions myself, and that was with the sunday school teachers full knowledge that I was an infidel (my lovely aunt told her, so she could try to convert me), so I was treated especially harsh.

[brighid]

MegaDave,

If you are left with a bad taste in your mouth, there is a reason, even if you cannot pin-point it at the moment. Trust your "instincts" as, at least in my own experience, they are correct.

A thank you note is appropriate, but I would be weary about the motivation they have toward your children. You are "lost" even if they aren't assholish about it, but your children are still at that tender age that they can be influenced.

This doesn't mean you can't occassionally go to this Church to appease the wife. It's probably a good idea, but you could also (if you haven't already) check out a Unitarian Universalist Church in your area. At least they won't attempt to convert you, or your child to any religious persuasion and accept your atheism. Any "Sunday School" environment would be positive and your infidelic children wouldn't be treated harshly. They would have the opportunity to learn about other faiths in a much more objective way then happens in most Churches.

I think it's perfectly fine to engage in activities with local churches. I spend one day a week, through my volunteer work, in a Church (they are usually the only places that allow non-for-profits free space to hold meetings, etc.) The pastor of the Church is very nice and so are the people we interact with. I would, perhaps on a special occassion, attend a service if it were to help our group.

Brighid