Attn: COAS and fans...

[Pouye]

First off, I would like to say, (as many of you on this forum have similarly expressed), I am very impressed with COAS's story thus far. I appreciate her honesty, and her willingness to share her intense struggles and joys. Thank you, COAS for taking us along on your adventures; grappling with thoughts about your fundamentalist Christian upbringing, your riveting journeys through the jungles of your teenage years, and your quests for honor and the truth. As a writer myself (also linguist, Bible translator) of about the same age, I can relate to her more than she will ever realize (as you will all witness in this thread...)

Testimonies are a powerful thing, and story telling (especially a true story) is not only one of the best forms of communication we have as human beings, but one of the most popular venues of interactive learning. Hence this forum!

COAS and I have much in common. Coincidently I was even born in the spring on the 24th, (not March but April), 1972 (not 73). We have both spent time in fundamentalist Christianity and been on a hunt for the truth all of our lives. I graduated with my two year degree (Computer Science emphasis – but I was better in English...) at 18. I brought my Bible every day to work. I’m also a voracious reader, focusing mainly on both Christian and secular subjects such as journalism, apologetics, textual criticism, and a whole range of other subjects, including, I must confess, fiction – (John Ronald Reuel Tolkien rocks!)

Ironically, I am typing this out from Ukarumpa, Papua New Guinea. COAS might be interested to see what POC (Pacific Orientation Course) in Madang looks like now, so I will post some of my own photos, since I’ve stomped the very same sand and soil in the very same places (Jais aben is AWESOME!). If you like warm water and tropical fish, Madang, PNG has some world class scuba and snorkeling places.

Also ironically, Biff the unclean agreed (hopefully jokingly) with this statement:
“Shooting isn’t good enough for them.” (Referring to missionaries.)
The photo of the big, tall white guy (on the left, next to the PNG national) in COAS’s “deconversion” thread is K. Jackson. I’m sure COAS can confirm this. He married C. Bitterman’s widow, Brenda. The late C. Bitterman was also an SIL missionary. He was kidnapped and shot to death in Columbia by guerrillas.
With Mr. Bitterman, you got your wish, Biff... btw, I would never talk of shooting atheists.
Also in that picture, the house on the left of K. Jackson is the staff house my wife and I lived in for a few months. Just behind the three in the photo is the director of POC’s house. To the right is the mess hall, kitchen, etc.

(A side note: Almost ALL international relief and aid is gathered and shipped by Christian relief organizations -- and at the other end, distributed by missionaries (or missionary services like JAARS and MAF.)

As far as my standpoint on “once saved, always saved”, COAS has done a brilliant job to back what I’ve always believed (and what the Bible says is true): A Christian can lose their salvation. If any fundamentalist on this forum is brave enough to take me on regarding this issue, I’ll be happy to oblige.
(Just please start another thread if you wish to be taken to the cleaners...)

I’m not saying that COAS has finished her search, nor am I about to say some nonsensical fundamentalist b.s. like she has no hope. Since I believe in God, I also believe (as the Bible says) that only God can judge the heart of a person, and therefore I will refrain from making any calls regarding COAS and the issue of faith. I respect her, even though I might not agree with her, I feel very fortunate to hear her story.

Just as there are “deconversion” stories, their are many brilliant atheists (I work with some of them...) who have converted to Christianity (Lee Stroble, a popular Christian author, is in this category). I’m not trying to say this to discredit COAS (who I believe is telling the truth about her experiences...no question), but to make the point that searches for the truth by intelligent and educated people do not always meet in the same base camp.

Here is a shameless plug for other Christians who participate on this forum:
There is much that has happened since around AD 33. I have always believed that the closer you get to the story, the more truth you will find about that story. I am much more inclined to believe what the writers of the New Testament (many of whom knew Jesus personally and intimately) had to say about what happened 2000 years ago than the reasonable searching of a girl younger than myself living 2000 years after the scene has passed. As many of you are well aware, there are many difficulties surrounding the death and resurrection of Christ (or at least the accounts thereof). Believe me, I’m well aware of most of them. However, I have yet to be convinced by arguments which come from critics and skeptics in these latest centuries regarding these events.
(End of shameless plug...)

Look for more recent photos of the same place that COAS spent some of her childhood...

BTW, I am (obviously) very new to this forum. I found this forum typing, “forum” in the Google search after being frustrated with arguing with fundamental Christians who were mostly interested in food to feed their latest dogma. However, what I have found on this forum are atheists who are frustrated when I call myself a Christian but then disagree with the majority of fundamental Christians about a subject. I feel like there is no room for me, since I always get lines like, “Well, how do you expect me, [an atheist, agnostic, or insert belief system here] to believe you when you can’t even convince the majority of your fundamental Christian peers of what you are saying?” It’s a question which I'm sure theoscholar, Lonely-Road-of-Faith, etc. have had to deal with, too.

It is actually uncanny to bump into COAS here. My jaw dropped to the floor when I saw pictures of people I know and places I’ve lived and played. With her honesty and courage displayed, I can’t help but respect and like COAS. You’re awesome, girl. :cool:

Rock

[Pouye]

Going down the mountain to Nagada...

[Pouye]

Get down from there!

;)

[Pouye]

:o

[Pouye]

(House + wind)

[christ-on-a-stick]

Wow, Rock. Thank you so much for posting this. :) I have much to say but am running out the door right now - I will definitely be back later.

Yes, the man in the photo is K. Jackson. He and Brenda, along with her daughters from her marriage to Bitterman and their two daughters together, were on staff at POC for the two years we were there when I was 10-12. When I was looking through photos at my grandparent's house the other day, they had just received a photo-Christmas-card from the Jacksons and I was blown away by seeing the girls all grown up - the youngest now in college. Actually, until you posted this I had forgotten about the circumstances surrounding Bitterman's death, which are indeed as you recounted. It was an awful, horrible thing. :(

I can't thank you enough for the photos - you have actually just fulfilled one of my long-standing wishes; I've always wanted to see what POC looks like now. If you have any current photos of Ukarampa as well and want to post or email them to me I would be immensely grateful. I don't know if I will ever get back there again, although I hope to before I die, but to see those places again even if only through photographs would make me very, very happy.

What a small world!!!!!!

Back later. :)

Lauri

[christ-on-a-stick]

P.S. Since I know it's "tomorrow" in Ukarumpa right now... my best wishes to you and yours for a wonderful PNG Krismas!!! http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/holidays2003/25.gif

[christ-on-a-stick]

Howdy Rock,

Here's another one of mine - I am wondering if this rope swing (down my the pig haus below the workshop) is still there. I'm guessing not, considering I still can hardly believe they let us do this! Seriously dangerous (but SOOOO fun!!! :D )

Look, I can fly!!!! Man, that was a great feeling.

[Pouye]

Hello COAS,

Here are a few pics I pulled out of the digital hat...
This one is my daughter trying to cheer up a sick kid at the clinic (haus win waiting room) in Ukarumpa.

[Pouye]

:)

[Pouye]

Market day...

[Pouye]

JAARS and their latest toy...

[Pouye]

Fire! Fire!

[Pouye]

at Ukarumpa...

[Pouye]

:)

[Pouye]

on horseback!

[Pouye]

MK's.

[Pouye]

For people who want to know a little about where I am coming from:

I am where you are... an ordinary person trying to figure things out. I am a human being: I love, I weep, my friends get old some of them even die, I experience beauty, I live.

And as I live I try to figure out if there is a God, and what difference that would make. I live in the "borderlands" of belief -- the region between belief and unbelief.

I am a pilgrim on a journey. My faith dares my soul to go beyond what my eyes can see. I get confused, frustrated and for every answer I feel I might have, there are a myriad of questions begging me... the answers to them taunting and eluding me. I read, I watch, I learn. I am a finite speck in a vast universe I struggle to grasp the meanings of -- not settling for "null".

I have lived a mere 31 years on a planet which has been the home to innumerable humans just like myself. Just the fact that I wonder about so many things is a wonder!

Rock

[Pouye]

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
Howdy Rock,

Here's another one of mine - I am wondering if this rope swing (down my the pig haus below the workshop) is still there. I'm guessing not, considering I still can hardly believe they let us do this! Seriously dangerous (but SOOOO fun!!! :D )

Look, I can fly!!!! Man, that was a great feeling.

I don't remember it, but I'm still young enough and/or stupid enough to try something like it.

Once, while out in the bush in POC, I actually fulfilled a serious life-long dream... to swing from a vine like Tarzan. I just couldn't do it as long or as graceful as he could -- but I'm convinced I had more fun...;)

Rock

[southernhybrid]

I enjoyed this adjunct to the coas story. It was very thoughtful of you to provide it for us. As an atheist humanist, I am drawn to people of all cultures, ages and belief systems. I am very close to my elderly, conservative Xian mom and it hurts me to think that some of my atheist cohorts would desire unpleasant things for people like her. When we get to know each other as individuals rather than as labels, it is usually very easy to discover our many commonalities and develop mutual respect and even fondness for each other. Prejudice and intolerance are the true evils in our world. I appreciate your tolerance Pouye and hope it will act as an encouragement to others.

Merry Christmas to you and your family. :)

[Amos]

Originally posted by Pouye
You are entitled to your opinion. Frankly, I don't like discussing my personal sentiments with people who are not nice... I also hang up the phone on people who are not respectful.

COAS, although I will say we certainly wouldn't agree with each other about some things, at least has shown herself to be respectful of others. Being told that I and others who don't believe as you do should be killed is not a very good way to show that your philosophical approach to life is superior to my own. I hope every atheist on this forum doesn't feel like anyone who doesn't believe as they do should be murdered.

Rock
:rolleyes:

But I am a very nice person Pouye and would love to wish you a Merry Christmas except that that would add feul to your burning desire to get to know Christ. Christ-mas, as every linguist should know and understand, is the culmination of the daily masses and therefore a Catholic concept celebrating the birth of Christ that was foreshadowed by Advent.

There is nothing wrong with your belief if that is what you want to believe but in my opinion, even as a Catholic, it is wrong for you to present your beliefs to others without having reached your final destiny in life. To make myself clear I should add that your final destiny is to know the depth, width and breadth of the Lord your God and in doing so you will know who you really are. This knowledge ends your journey as a suffering servant and that will be about the time that you can go around and proclaim the good news to others. Let me give you a scripture here to confirm this: Jn.20:21 while bearing the stigmata Jesus said "as the father has send me, so I send you." This very well means that until you bare the stigmata you are ahead of yourself with the danger that if you fail to achieve this noble end in your own life you will never be able to forgive yourself for having misled others and may even be looking for your own millstone.

I /we doubt not your own salvation but will tell you upfront that you will never be able to work out your own salvation and therefore will die with the unresolved paradox "sinful yet saved."
In this sense have you been made lukewarm and if that is wrong it is also wrong for you to engage others in the race that you can't finish yourself. That would be equal to leading them into eternal suffering and thereby robbing them of eternal life . . . and that, my friend, is my only objection to your activities over there.

The unspoken message here is that the natives over there in their primitive mythology have a far superior way to achieve enlightenment. Theirs is proven by their survival and yours is proven by its chaos and unrest (which is the smoke of your torment).

In the end I wish to remind to that you posted this challenge in you OP and I am just a responding to that challenge.

[Pouye]

Originally posted by Amos
But I am a very nice person Pouye and would love to wish you a Merry Christmas except that that would add feul to your burning desire to get to know Christ...

In the end I wish to remind to that you posted this challenge in you OP and I am just a responding to that challenge.

Well, I'll say it... Merry Christmas! ;)

(Start a new thread, Amos.)

[Pouye]

Originally posted by southernhybrid
I enjoyed this adjunct to the coas story. It was very thoughtful of you to provide it for us. As an atheist humanist, I am drawn to people of all cultures, ages and belief systems. I am very close to my elderly, conservative Xian mom and it hurts me to think that some of my atheist cohorts would desire unpleasant things for people like her. When we get to know each other as individuals rather than as labels, it is usually very easy to discover our many commonalities and develop mutual respect and even fondness for each other. Prejudice and intolerance are the true evils in our world. I appreciate your tolerance Pouye and hope it will act as an encouragement to others.

Merry Christmas to you and your family. :)

Merry Christmas to you, too!

I appreciate honesty. Christ was depicted in the Scriptures as tolerant to anyone who was willing to come to Him in humility and honesty. He accepted prostitutes, lepers, and the lame; Samaritans (despised by Jews), Romans (also despised), and anyone who was a social outcast (including women and children...)
Conversely, Jesus was intolerant of those religious leaders who dogmatically proclaimed that they were superior, enlightened and favored by God.

In light of the above, Gandhi once said,
“Rationalists are admirable beings, rationalism is a hideous monster when it claims for itself omnipotence. Attribution of omnipotence to reason is as bad a piece of idolatry as is worship of stock and stone believing it to be God. I plead not for the suppression of reason, but for a due recognition of that in us which sanctifies reason.”

I completely agree.

For myself, I believe to love people is to love God:

“‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?’ And the King will tell them, ‘I assure you, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’” Matthew 25:37b-40

Like Jesus, however, I am fed up with self-righteous people (from any religion) who would like to impose their own wills or prescriptions of faith on others. Some people on this forum might be confused that I call myself a missionary. I am actually a linguist/translator. I am helping a local church in PNG to translate the Bible because they have requested my help. I do not preach or teach in the church (unless asked specifically on special occasions), plant churches, etc. Rather, I serve in community development (as a consultant), help the people medically to the best of my abilities, and help to serve the community through training teachers to advance literacy and education as per the plan of the government.

I believe that if more Christians actually lived like Jesus did, loving others and showing grace to all (especially to those who honestly need it the most), there would be very few who would complain about Christianity. Instead, unfortunately, the majority look more like the Pharisees and Sadducees of whom Jesus said these words:

"For they don't practice what they teach. They crush you with impossible religious demands and never lift a finger to help ease the burden." Matthew 23:4

Rock

[Amos]

Originally posted by Pouye
Like Jesus, however, I am fed up with self-righteous people (from any religion) who would like to impose their own wills or prescriptions of faith on others. Some people on this forum might be confused that I call myself a missionary. I am actually a linguist/translator.


Nobody here would attack you as a person but I just think that your job as a bible translator is wrong, wrong, wrong. In fact, I think that bible reading itself is wrong wherein 'you' read with curious eyes because it testifies on behalf of salvation (Jn.5:39-40). Understanding God, or salvation, or 'your own self,' or whatever else you wish to call it cannnot be found in the bible but must come to us by nature before it can make sense in the bible and in this sense are the natives over there eons ahead of you -- simply because not you, nor any of yours, will ever come to this conclusion or Jesus would have told the rich man how to get there. Sorry but true.

I can make this as long as I want to and rewrite the whole bible if I had to but if your salvation is at stake you won't listen to me anyway. So you are on your own and I'll just show up as a wild card here and there.

<Insult Deleted>

To avoid confusion, that is the Rich man in the Rich Man and Lazarus parable (Lk.16:31).

[diana]

Originally posted by Pouye
I appreciate honesty. Christ was depicted in the Scriptures as tolerant to anyone who was willing to come to Him in humility and honesty. He accepted prostitutes, lepers, and the lame; Samaritans (despised by Jews), Romans (also despised), and anyone who was a social outcast (including women and children...) Conversely, Jesus was intolerant of those religious leaders who dogmatically proclaimed that they were superior, enlightened and favored by God.So Christ was modeled after me? Cool.

My motivation is my being convinced that we're all just human beings with human feelings, trying to make our way.

I wonder what his motivation was? (Or did he even need motivation? I mean, if he was perfect and everything, how could he not do all these things? So...if I'm but a despicable human worm and everything, yet still find the means to be tolerant of those who are weaker than myself, does that make me better than Jesus? Hm.)

d

[Amos]

Originally posted by diana
So Christ was modeled after me? Cool.



Slow down daina, I think Pouye is rethinking that post.

Fact is that Jesus instead of Christ was speaking in the gospels and we all know that Jesus was counted among the wicked or they would not have crucified him.

Christ came on the scene at the end of Mark which goes on past the Resurrection. It goes like this: Jesus died and Christ was set free when Jesus died or else Jesus could not have been raised.

[Postcard73]

There seem to be two discussions happening here, so this thread is gonna be split. I'll get it back up and running ASAP, but this is my first time doing a split. I apologize for the inconvenience... :)

[Postcard73]

Sorry that took so long. There were several times where I honestly thought my brain was going explode. I'll look over the two threads again in a little while to make sure I got all the threads in the correct sides of the split...

[Pouye]

Originally posted by diana
So Christ was modeled after me? Cool.

My motivation is my being convinced that we're all just human beings with human feelings, trying to make our way.

I wonder what his motivation was? (Or did he even need motivation? I mean, if he was perfect and everything, how could he not do all these things? So...if I'm but a despicable human worm and everything, yet still find the means to be tolerant of those who are weaker than myself, does that make me better than Jesus? Hm.)

d

Until you give your life away and die as a sacrifice for all humanity, my sources say no... ;)

As far as motivation goes, I believe every human has goodness in them. Many Christians will say this comes from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but I think basically we are moral beings because we are created in the image of God. Humans can invent (think up things which no person has ever thought up before and do not yet exist), which is an amazing ability which also stems, I believe, from being made in the image of The Creator.

I believe compassion, mercy, forgiveness, selfless acts of sacrifice for others, unconditional love --- these are all attributes and qualities which stem from God. Also, the idea that all humans are created equal (as in worth, value) is mainly a Christian idea which stems from believing that we are created in the image of God. This compels me (along with my own "instilled" goodnes) to stand up for people of any nationality, class, race, age, etc. who are treated with anything but freedom and equality.

Unless you think I believe only Christians are capable of these attributes, I will state this: I see love (real, "agape" love) coming from every society on this planet, whether Christian, Muslim, [insert any group here]. For this Christian, this is a testimony to the goodness of God. But unfortunately, I also see non-love (hate) flowing through the veins of the same societies.

Paul, in the book of Romans deals with these same issues in detail.

Searching for meaning with grace filled eyes,

Rock

[Pouye]

So...if I'm but a despicable human worm and everything, yet still find the means to be tolerant of those who are weaker than myself

The following is my own beliefs on this subject. They are Christian beliefs, I will admit... For when asked about Jesus, I tell about Him the best I know how.

I'm not a Calvinist. In fact I often jokingly call myself a "Calminian" (Calvinist + Arminian). Paul says it this way about human beings:

"For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts."
Romans 1:19

Later he says:

"Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right."
Romans 2:14-16

Anyone who calls themselves a Christian should look to Christ's example for how to treat human beings (and relate to them as He did):

"...we preach about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God." 2 Corinthians 4:4

Jesus boldly faced the proud Pharisees and religious leaders of the day. He described them here:

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the Scriptures. So practice and obey whatever they say to you, but don't follow their example. For they don't practice what they teach. They crush you with impossible religious demands and never lift a finger to help ease the burden.

“Everything they do is for show. On their arms they wear extra wide prayer boxes with Scripture verses inside,_and they wear extra long tassels on their robes. And how they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the most prominent seats in the synagogue! They enjoy the attention they get on the streets, and they enjoy being called ‘Rabbi.’_
Don't ever let anyone call you ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one teacher, and all of you are on the same level as brothers and sisters. And don't address anyone here on earth as ‘Father,’ for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father. And don't let anyone call you ‘Master,’ for there is only one master, the Messiah.
The greatest among you must be a servant. But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
“How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you won't let others enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and you won't go in yourselves. Yes, how terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn him into twice the son of hell as you yourselves are."
Matthew 23:1-15

Sound familiar? Yep: [insert modern-day TV preacher here]

Humility and sacrificial love is the mark of every true Christian:

"We know what real love is because Christ gave up his life for us. And so we also ought to give up our lives for our brothers and sisters. But if anyone has enough money to live well and sees a brother or sister in need and refuses to help—how can God's love be in that person? Dear children, let us stop just saying we love each other; let us really show it by our actions. It is by our actions that we know we are living in the truth, so we will be confident when we stand before the Lord, even if our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."
1 John 3:16-20

I cannot judge your heart, diana -- nor is it appropriate for any person to do so. You sound to me like a very special person. As far as I can see in the Sciptures, there has never been one single person as sacrificially as Jesus loved. It is this love which has drawn me to Christ -- to love Him and live my life as an example of His grace. I screw up, I mess up. Yet in the hard times, the selfish times, etc. I am confident that even if my own heart condemns me (Have you been there? Have you ever beat yourself up for doing something really mean or stupid to someone else?) -- God knows my heart. I believe He knows yours, too...

Rock

[lpetrich]

Pouye:
Humans can invent (think up things which no person has ever thought up before and do not yet exist), which is an amazing ability which also stems, I believe, from being made in the image of The Creator.

I've always thought that if the Universe had had a creator, then we are anything but carbon copies of that entity -- that entity or entities would be VERY unlike us.

Also, let us not forget what a certain Xenophanes had once pointed out -- that people tend to think that the deities they worship have a resemblance to them, not only in physical features, but also in clothing styles.

And chimps have some interesting toolmaking abilities, though not as well-developed as ours. Does that mean that God might look like a chimp?

I believe compassion, mercy, forgiveness, selfless acts of sacrifice for others, unconditional love --- these are all attributes and qualities which stem from God.

However,

Wolves in a pack do not indiscriminately hunt each other.

Bees in a hive do not indiscriminately sting each other.

[lpetrich]

Pouye:
Humility and sacrificial love is the mark of every true Christian ...

Ah, yes, the philosophy of the kamikaze pilot.

I have always preferred Aristotle's proper pride, a Golden Mean between humility and arrogance.

[diana]

Originally posted by Pouye
Until you give your life away and die as a sacrifice for all humanity, my sources say no... ;)Hi, Pouye.

I'd have to say that giving one's life away as a sacrifice to save far fewer than "all humanity" would make you more admirable than one single sacrifice to save all. Quite ordinary people have done that for centuries, throwing themselves on grenades, leaping in the paths of bullets...shit like that. ;)

As far as motivation goes, I believe every human has goodness in them. Many Christians will say this comes from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but I think basically we are moral beings because we are created in the image of God. Humans can invent (think up things which no person has ever thought up before and do not yet exist), which is an amazing ability which also stems, I believe, from being made in the image of The Creator.I've always admired the belief that every human has goodness in them. I think it's a rather gullible belief, but it strikes me as beautiful and compassionate, nonetheless.

I subscribe to the bell curve theory of goodness, myself. There are a handful of people who really are all bad and a handful who really are all good. Not many--either way. The vast majority fall into your category--not all bad or all good.

I believe compassion, mercy, forgiveness, selfless acts of sacrifice for others, unconditional love --- these are all attributes and qualities which stem from God. Also, the idea that all humans are created equal (as in worth, value) is mainly a Christian idea which stems from believing that we are created in the image of God. This compels me (along with my own "instilled" goodnes) to stand up for people of any nationality, class, race, age, etc. who are treated with anything but freedom and equality.Interesting. I think we all have the capacity for those attributes, but we don't all necessarily have them. Of course, I see no reason to attribute them to a god. You, in the name of your Christian beliefs, stand up for others regardless of nationality, class, race, age, etc. I do it in the name of humanism.

Maybe we aren't so different after all.

Unless you think I believe only Christians are capable of these attributes, I will state this: I see love (real, "agape" love) coming from every society on this planet, whether Christian, Muslim, [insert any group here]. For this Christian, this is a testimony to the goodness of God. But unfortunately, I also see non-love (hate) flowing through the veins of the same societies.And the non-love is testimony to...?

Paul, in the book of Romans deals with these same issues in detail.So I've read.

d

[Amos]

have another one on me girl!!!!!!:D :D :D

[diana]

Originally posted by Pouye
I cannot judge your heart, diana -- nor is it appropriate for any person to do so. You sound to me like a very special person. As far as I can see in the Sciptures, there has never been one single person as sacrificially as Jesus loved. It is this love which has drawn me to Christ -- to love Him and live my life as an example of His grace. I screw up, I mess up. Yet in the hard times, the selfish times, etc. I am confident that even if my own heart condemns me (Have you been there? Have you ever beat yourself up for doing something really mean or stupid to someone else?) -- God knows my heart. I believe He knows yours, too...

Rock Hi, Rock.

You sound like a nice bloke, yourself. I understand the emotional support your belief lends you, so I won't fault you that. And I additionally appreciate the effort on your part to not judge. I think that's ultimately Christianly (as I understand the Bible).

I, personally, remain unconvinced that Jesus even was a real person who lived and walked the earth, so I'm far from being swept into the idea that he was the epitome of love. You find strength in your faith, while I find strength within myself.

I wish you well.

d

[Amos]

Originally posted by diana
I You find strength in your faith, while I find strength within myself.



Jesus did walk in the past and wants you to walk beside him now (dear diana, slobber slobber). He does not want you to worship him as a god of the distant past but follow him in the example he gave us and that is why you are the person of true faith now.