Pouye and OSNAS

[Magus55]

Pouye, as pointed out in your "Attn:...." thread, you don't believe in OSAS and i'm curious on your reasons why.

[Colorado Infidel]

Dang, I misread this. I thought it said POPEYE and OSNAS.

I was looking forward to a good discussion of things Popeye, like Olive Oyl, Bluto (Brutus), Wimpy, The Jeep, Sweepea, his nephews, and especially Spinach!

[Amos]

Originally posted by Magus55
Pouye, as pointed out in your "Attn:...." thread, you don't believe in OSAS and i'm curious on your reasons why.

Pouye will tell you his story but I venture to say that it can't be true because some people get saved three times and once more for good measure just in case.

Where I come it was believed that with enough force you could breed to devil and she would do a rebirth for everybody that wanted one and that is where the OSNAS comes from.

[Vorkosigan]

...must not...argh!...muuuussst nooot......ohmigod.....must not.....OK! WhatisOSNAS?

[christ-on-a-stick]

Once Saved, Not Always Saved?

[Hobbs]

Originally posted by Magus55
Pouye, as pointed out in your "Attn:...." thread, you don't believe in OSAS and i'm curious on your reasons why.
I'm guessing COAS's guess is right: "once saved always saved."

I'll venture a response: perhaps because the Bible says believers can lose their salvation? As in Hebrews 6:4-6 - "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Magus, do you think this is just purely hypothetical? If so, then why would God have bothered to say it?

For much more than that one verse, just Google the phrase "once saved always saved" and you'll find plenty of Christians who use the Bible to argue against the doctrine (or, are they all obviously not true Christians?)

So, Magus, in other words, if those of us who used to be genuinely believing Christians who gave our selves to Jesus and who have now rejected Christianity are wrong in our beliefs that we have risen above, or outgrown, or moved beyond Christianity, then we're really screwed, and you're wasting your time trying to win us back to Christ.

It also means that you'd better watch your step: it could happen to you. (You don't think there is anything so uniquely special about you that God would make sure you never fall away when he didn't do the same for us, now, do you?)

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Hobbs
I'm guessing COAS's guess is right: "once saved always saved."

I'll venture a response: perhaps because the Bible says believers can lose their salvation? As in Hebrews 6:4-6 - "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Magus, do you think this is just purely hypothetical? If so, then why would God have bothered to say it?

For much more than that one verse, just Google the phrase "once saved always saved" and you'll find plenty of Christians who use the Bible to argue against the doctrine (or, are they all obviously not true Christians?)

So, Magus, in other words, if those of us who used to be genuinely believing Christians who gave our selves to Jesus and who have now rejected Christianity are wrong in our beliefs that we have risen above, or outgrown, or moved beyond Christianity, then we're really screwed, and you're wasting your time trying to win us back to Christ.

It also means that you'd better watch your step: it could happen to you. (You don't think there is anything so uniquely special about you that God would make sure you never fall away when he didn't do the same for us, now, do you?) Actually, you would be wrong ( at least based on Heb 6). Hebrews was written to, guess who, yes the Hebrews. Verses 4-6 refer to Jews who believed in Jesus as their savior, but then turned around and continued trying to use the law to gain salvation. It doesn't apply to anyone on this board since 1) almost no one here is a Jew, and 2) no one here is reverting back to the law as a means of salvation.

[hezekiah jones]

... Jews who believed in Jesus as their savior ...

a.k.a. "Christians"?

[Magus55]

Originally posted by hezekiah jones
... Jews who believed in Jesus as their savior ...

a.k.a. "Christians"? Yes, but not Gentile Christians.

[hezekiah jones]

Originally posted by Magus55
Yes, but not Gentile Christians.

Jewish Christians?

[Pouye]

The Bible indeed teaches that once a person is saved, he is always saved... if he continues faithfully to walk in the light.
There are 3 types of people to discuss here.....
1. Those who were not saved, but appeared to be.. 1 John 2:19
2. Those who Christ says "endure to the end will be saved." Matt. 24:13
3. Those who were saved, but had "shipwrecked their faith"
1 Tim. 1:19

1. There are many who fall into this category, many of the Pharisee's did in Jesus day. They appeared to be saved, but were not. 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us...." John later alludes to them being counterfeit. Sadly, the "church" here in America is infected with counterfeits. Many appear to be saved, they may even act saved, but once the Word of God is applied to their hearts, their true nature is shown...they are "whitewashed tombs", a "brood of vipers"...etc.

2. Matt. 24:12-13 "Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Jesus was clear that it was those who stood firm to the end that would be saved. Jesus said this previously in Matt. 10:22.

3. The bible plainly teaches that the possibility exists to fall out of God's salvation.
Hebrews 10:26-29 says that no sacrifice for sins is left for those who continue on in deliberate sin. Who are those that have no more sacrifice for their sins? Vs. 29 says it is those who were sanctified by the blood of the covenant. (Those who had been saved.)

You can try and make distinctions between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians, but the Bible says there is no distinction:

"There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians—you are one in Christ Jesus."
(Probably one of the most radical statements in history!)
Galatians 3:28

1 Cor. 9:27 -- "No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."
Paul states a person, even himself, can be disqualified from the "prize", which is eternal life.

Galatians 5:4 -- "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Paul is clear that some have fallen away from Christ.

2 Peter 2:20-21 -- " If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them."
Peter is also clear that these have lost their salvation and have returned to even a worse state then before.

Romans 11:17-24 -- Paul speaks of olive branches that were broken off (separated from Christ), so others could be grafted in. If the old branches did not persist in unbelief, they could be grafted in again (return to salvation)
Jesus, Paul and Peter are all very clear in the scriptures about the possibility of falling away, etc.

Hebrews was probably written to Jewish believers (evidenced by the comparisons between Jesus and the priesthood).
Hebrews 10:26-31 is a warning against apostasy for believers.
The greek word "epignosis" is used in Hebrews 10:26 regarding knowledge of the truth. The usual word for "knowledge" in the Greek is "gnosis" but this is a different word, the word here is "epignosis" which means "full knowledge".
Epignosis connotes a more intimate, deep, personal knowledge of something or of someone.
"Epignosis" is used in 1 Tim:2-4, 2 Tim:3-7 and 2 Pet:2-20, and indicates an intimate, deep personal knowledge of Christ, not a superficial knowledge or mental acknowledgement of the plan of salvation.
Also the plural pronoun "we" is used twice in verse 26 indicating the writer includes himself in those he warns.
The expression "the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ", or its equivalent, is found five times in the New Testament: Eph.1-17, 4-13; Phil.3-8; 2 Pet.1-8 and 2-20. And the expression "the knowledge of God" is found five times: Rom.11-33; II Cor.10-5; Col.1-10 and II Pet.1-2.
In these ten scriptures, it is experiential knowledge that is referred to not just a mental understanding or head knowledge.

Romans 8:38-39 is very clear that none of the elements in creation can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. However, all of these elements exist outside of the believer.
2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us"

External things cannot separate us from God, but there is one sin which can:

"If you see a Christian brother or sister sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it."
1 John 5:16-17

Jesus defines the "unforgivable sin" here:

"Every sin or blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which can never be forgiven. Anyone who blasphemes against me, the Son of Man, can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come."
Matthew 12:31-32

I would venture to say there is only ONE sin (and that sin is a continually blatant rejection [blasphemy] of the Holy Spirit's work in a person's life) which cannot be forgiven. Apart from this sin (which, consequently applies to believers AND unbelievers) there are no other sins which can seperate us from the love of God.

Jesus died for us ONCE for all time. He forgives every sin; past present and future. The only sin which He cannot forgive is a life which constantly resists Him. He will not force us to love Him or "abide in Him". He will not force us to accept His Holy Spirit's drawing and leading. He will not make us live forever with Him nor force us to follow Him and His ways if we don't want to -- whether we are saved or not.

Salvation is a covenant relationship. A covenant relationship can be broken, but only by the parties who made the covenant. Nothing external can break a covenant relationship; however, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (since the Holy Spirit is the One who seals our covenant between God and ourselves) is to willingly break the contract (covenant). God promises to alway keep His side of the covenant, and He promises to help us to fulfill our end of it as well -- but only if we "abide in Him" (stay in a covenant relationship with Him). There is no sin you can imagine that is stronger than God's love. There is no habit, sin, etc. which is more powerful than the blood of Christ.

Let me put it this way:
If you have participated in homosexual acts, murdered, raped, been involved in incestual relationships, [insert any "hard-core" sin here] -- not one of these sins can keep you out of heaven if come in humility and honesty to the foot of the cross. Even if you "slip back into" doing some of these "old sins" which used to have a strangle hold on you, AS LONG AS YOU RUN TO THE CROSS OF JESUS and truly repent (turn away from the sin and follow God's desires again), you are abiding in Christ. You may sin for a season, you might even "fall away" for a while. But the Holy Spirit will continue to draw you back to God.

The dangerous part of ignoring God is that if you continue in sin (not dealing honestly with your sin before God) there is a point where you actually resist the Holy Spirit and are in danger of rejecting Him forever. This state of rejection is refered to as a seared conscience (the Holy Spirit can no longer convict a conscience which is seared).

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron."
1 Timothy 4:1

One does not put a "Warning: Combustible" label on gloves made of asbestos.

Rock

ps. This is in my mind a non-essential for Christians. It should not divide Christians, and it should not produce hard feelings. This subject will always be debated...

[christ-on-a-stick]

Hi Rock,

Thank you for the detailed explanation of why the Christian version of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy is not supported by Scripture.

Not to wander too far from the OP, but part of your post is a topic of particular interest to me:
Jesus defines the "unforgivable sin" here:

"Every sin or blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which can never be forgiven. Anyone who blasphemes against me, the Son of Man, can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come."
Matthew 12:31-32

I would venture to say there is only ONE sin (and that sin is a continually blatant rejection of the Holy Spirit's work in a person's life) which cannot be forgiven. Apart from this sin (which, consequently applies to believers AND unbelievers) there are no other sins which can seperate us from the love of God. The idea of the one "unforgivable sin" entered my mind a lot when I was young and I was actually quite fearful at times that I may have somehow committed it unknowingly (I was kind of a worrier as a kid). While of course it is no longer particularly relevant to me now since I lack belief in the entities involved, I still find the topic fascinating as I believe it raises some questions about the coherency of the Christian doctrine.

I.E.: The dangerous part of ignoring God is that if you continue in sin (not dealing honestly with your sin before God) there is a point where you actually resist the Holy Spirit and are in danger of rejecting Him forever. This state of rejection is refered to as a seared conscience [B](the Holy Spirit can no longer convict a conscience which is seared). (emphasis mine) See, to me this contradicts the claim that God (in three persons according to the Trinity doctrine) is all-powerful. Would it not be more accurate to say, if one wishes to stick with the omnipotence attribute, to say that the Holy Spirit chooses not to convict? Which in turn raises questions of the omnibenevolent attribute. Round and round we go.

After all, would it not be those who have strayed furthest from the flock who are most in need of the Holy Spirit's full-force power of conviction?

***

Thanks again for your well-elucidated answer to Magus' question. I for one appreciate it. :)

*edited to remove redundant cut-n-paste

[Amos]

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick


Thanks again for your well-elucidated answer to Magus' question. I for one appreciate it. :)



I am also tremendously greatful for the well rounded answer to the OSAS question but I think he is dead wrong and will show you why.

In my view it is impossible to lose your salvation if [re]born of God and it is impossible to work out your salvation if [re]born from carnal desire.

The above means that there are two kinds of salvation available to humans, one from God and the other from carnal desire. Go to Jn.1 (yesterday's Gospel message during the high Christ-mas) and read verse 13: "who were begotten not by blood, nor by carnal desire, nor by man's willing it but by God."

To be reborn from carnal desire is to have been reborn out of your own free will and thus upon our own initiative. In this case God will give us a scorpion instead of a fish because he would never add supernatural insights to have them work against him, or against his will on earth. In this case the fuzzy feeling of salvation can/is/will/ may be real and that will depend on the strength of the wine of God's wrath we will have received when we drank of the cup of his anger (Rev.14:10; it's rather difficult to breed God so we can get reborn). These kind of Christians will become Jesus worshippers as found in Rev. 13:11-17. They will be, and act like, a beast that came from the earth with two horns etc. (I have a colorfull explanation for all these metaphors, rest assured), but are most identifyable with "their worship of the first beast with the mortal wounds that had been healed." This, of course, is Jesus who's example they are to follow instead of worship. They also perform great prodigies and force everybody on the entire world to worship this first beast (hint, hint).

The other kind is to have been reborn of God and that is when we become the first beast that came from the sea [celestial] and therefore had victory of sin (10 diadem studded horns) seven sacraments etc. It spend 42 months there which is the time we spend in Purgatory where we work our salvation in fear and trembling, etc.

Let me go to verse 10 where "if one is destined for captivity, in captivity he goes" and allign this with John 21:18 where the promise was made that we will go into captivity at the age of accountability (Jn.is the Catholic Gospel and should be confirmed by Rev.).

The sin against the HS is to have been reborn from carnal desire because that is when we fornicate our own virginity towards rebirth from God (and those who lead others into the sinners prayer will fornicate their virginity) and hence the unforgivable sin is real. I once called it "breed the devil who will stage a rebirth for us anythime we want to" and that is just a figure of speech but true nonetheless . . . or there would be ex-protestants in heaven. Simple but fact.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by Magus55
Yes, but not Gentile Christians.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek , there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: [i]for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[Hobbs]

Originally posted by Magus55
Actually, you would be wrong ( at least based on Heb 6). Hebrews was written to, guess who, yes the Hebrews. Verses 4-6 refer to Jews who believed in Jesus as their savior, but then turned around and continued trying to use the law to gain salvation. It doesn't apply to anyone on this board since 1) almost no one here is a Jew, and 2) no one here is reverting back to the law as a means of salvation.
Hmm, I'm not sure what's stranger about this reply:

That Magus is saying that Jewish Christians can "fall away" from the faith and lose their salvation but non-Jewish Christians cannot, even though, as Pouye pointed out, the Bible claims that among Christians the difference between Jew and Gentile no longer exists ...

Or that Magus is saying that only Christians who are from Rome need to bother paying any attention to the book of Romans (since it was written to, guess who, yes, the Christians in Roman), only Christians from Corinth have anything to learn from either of Paul's letters to the Corinthians, only Chrisitans from Galatia can profit from perusing Galatians, etc etc etc.

Magus, are you sure you want to say that the bulk of the New Testament is irrelevant to most Christians?

[Pouye]

See, to me this contradicts the claim that God (in three persons according to the Trinity doctrine) is all-powerful. Would it not be more accurate to say, if one wishes to stick with the omnipotence attribute, to say that the Holy Spirit chooses not to convict? Which in turn raises questions of the omnibenevolent attribute. Round and round we go.

Actually (and this is my gut feeling...), I hate this subject, COAS. It makes my insides churn, to be utterly honest. Part of the uncomforting thing about this topic for me is that I don't like the idea of anyone spending eternity without Jesus. I honestly don't worry about this for myself, since I am hopelessly in love with the Jesus I read about in the Bible. He is my Hero, simply put -- a Hero who says things like this:

"'When you put on a luncheon or a dinner,' he said, 'don't invite your friends, brothers, relatives, and rich neighbors. For they will repay you by inviting you back. Instead, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind." Luke 14:12-

To answer you to the point, I believe that God actually sacrifices, since this is clearly a Biblical theme. How an all-powerful God can do this is beyond me, because to give in a sacrificial way (I'm not talking about killing animals, etc. here... I think you understand) you must give up a part of you... a part of your will, control or some ability. You must take a risk.
In human terms, when I let my toddler walk by herself I have to risk that she (her cute little self) can fall down and get hurt. This is, in part, because I am NOT all-powerful. I cannot "be omnipresent" to catch her, so I must release her into the unknown possibilities of her own undeveloped coordination so she can learn how to both walk and (ouch!) to fall.

Philippians 2:5-8 --

"Your attitude should be the same that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God. He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross."

This is one of the coolest, yet most mysterious verses in my Bible. It seems contradictory for an all-powerful God to give up even one little hair of his Son's head, let alone give Him over to death. Jesus said:

“The Father loves me because I lay down my life that I may have it back again. No one can take my life from me. I lay down my life voluntarily.”
John 10:17-

It stands to reason, at least for me, that true love always involves some form of sacrifice. I give up something (time, energy, money, etc.) so another human being can benifit.
In fact, here are some common phrases to describe someone who is "unloving": "He doesn't do anything for anyone! She will not go out of her way even an inch! All he can think about is himself! She wouldn't be helping you except she thinks she is going to get something out of it!" [no sacrifice; no skin off her butt...]

For God to be a God of love, it also stands to reason that He should be able to sacrifice... in fact, I would expect Him to do something just like the Bible says He did:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it." John 3:16-17

For me, COAS, what makes the idea of the Trinity both real, yet mysteriously wonderful is the love and humility which would have to inherently exist between the members. Willing submission involves sacrificing your position for another, not necessarily lessening yourself -- something like two equally dressed commanding officers, one deciding to submit to the other to get the job done.

Could it be that God willingly sacrificed (gave up control) to allow you and I a choice whether or not to love Him? If that is the case, it wouldn't be the Holy Spirit "choosing not to convict", but rather limiting His convicting power so as to not overrun our wills.

(BTW, I'm not a Calvinist nor an Arminian. I'm a Calminian ;) )

Rock

ps. Thanks for the question. I have many questions myself regarding this issue. There is no possible way for me to give you (or anyone, for that matter) a comforting answer to such a difficult question. In fact, it raises for me many more questions than "answers". But what else is new?

[Amos]

Originally posted by Pouye
Actually (and this is my gut feeling...), I hate this subject, COAS. It makes my insides churn, to be utterly honest. Part of the uncomforting thing about this topic for me is that I don't like the idea of anyone spending eternity without Jesus. I honestly don't worry about this for myself, since I am hopelessly in love with the Jesus I read about in the Bible. He is my Hero, simply put -- a Hero who says things like this:


Oh hi Pouye, glad to see you here. Would you please comment on my post above?

I should tell you here that I can see why people lose their salvation if they have been reborn from carnal desire (flesh we call it) and how they can fit into your three cathegories cited below:

1. Those who were not saved, but appeared to be.. 1 John 2:19
2. Those who Christ says "endure to the end will be saved." Matt. 24:13
3. Those who were saved, but had "shipwrecked their faith"
1 Tim. 1:19

Do you know anything about completing the race in 42 months as I suggested based on Jn.1:13?

[Opera Nut]

so Jesus is a loving dude, eh?

Start with Matthew, start with "I come not in peace, but with a sword, and I have come to set the father against the son, etc. etc....." and tell me how peaceful your Jesus is.

So we have free will to love god or not, but if we don't love God, specifically the Christian God [which Christians themselves cannot agree on, as they point fingers amongst themselves], then we as humans with a finite lifespan, are condemned to an eternal hellfire and damnation?

Legally, that's called "duress" and is an affirmative defense to a crime. If someone held a gun to your head and forced you to rob a bank, that would be your defense, because if you did not do what they told you to do, they would kill you.

And you're supposed to leave your family, follow Jesus, and give all your worldly goods to the poor. Any of you True Christians (TM) done that lately? You living on the streets and walked away from your family?

Oh and BTW, how can a person suffer physical tortures in Hell if he or she has no physical body but only a soul?

A loving god sends finite humans off to infinite punishment, eh?
What a sweetie....[sarcasm alarm still beeping furiously]

:banghead:

[Pouye]

"I come not in peace, but with a sword, and I have come to set the father against the son, etc. etc....." and tell me how peaceful your Jesus is.

I didn't say he was always peaceful. Aren't you glad police officers aren't always peaceful? (Are the police evil because they aren't always peaceful?)
Besides that, you need to look at the context of the verses you are pulling out of the proverbial hat. Jesus was saying that it was innevitable that divisions would happen in families when one member wants to follow God and another doesn't.

So we have free will to love god or not, but if we don't love God, specifically the Christian God [which Christians themselves cannot agree on, as they point fingers amongst themselves], then we as humans with a finite lifespan, are condemned to an eternal hellfire and damnation?

This is a difficult question which can only be addressed by a difficult answer. If you really are interested in this subject, I would suggest reading, "Beyond Death: Exploring the Evidence for Immortality" by J.P. Moreland. I'm not trying to brush you off, nor your question, which is a deep one which cannot be "answered" easily nor quickly... I have some thoughts about this, and if you want to start a new thread, I'll give it more thought.


Legally, that's called "duress" and is an affirmative defense to a crime. If someone held a gun to your head and forced you to rob a bank, that would be your defense, because if you did not do what they told you to do, they would kill you.

Not exactly... If I'm not mistaken, God is not standing over you with a club. He allows you to make a choice BECAUSE He remains obscure. If He was standing here on earth in all of His power and glory, then I might agree.

And you're supposed to leave your family, follow Jesus, and give all your worldly goods to the poor. Any of you True Christians (TM) done that lately? You living on the streets and walked away from your family?

Actually, I have left my family to serve Jesus. I sold my house and land, but something strange happened after I thought I gave up everything... I've been given two houses since that time and I know have a HUGE national family in PNG, as well as family in the USA.

Oh and BTW, how can a person suffer physical tortures in Hell if he or she has no physical body but only a soul?

Good question. If you are going to go that far with it, then you might as well believe the answer: that either a soul can endure some forms of suffering, or at the final resurrection, everyone gets "default" bodies of some kind. Who knows?

A loving god sends finite humans off to infinite punishment, eh?

Biblically, humans are not finite...

Rock

[Amos]

Originally posted by Pouye


Biblically, humans are not finite...

Rock

Man is inifinite and humans are finite.

-Hu is from -humi and makes humans 'earthly' (humus) and therefore finite. The addition of this prefix to "man" indicates that man-is-other-than-finite and infinite if you allow me to place infinite opposite to finite and heavenly is human is earthly and man opposite to earthly.

So therefore, why do you want a different body in heaven and why would you want yours to rot so you can get another (default?) body? Your theology stinks and I can smell burning sulpher in the wake of your words. Needless to say, I don't want any part of it.

[Sensei Meela]

But Pouye, God could be the ultimate 'peaceful police officer,' if He wanted. There is nothing He can't do; no solution devoid of violence that He can't think of and execute; no crime He could not simply prevent altogther. God doesn't want to be peaceful, He wants to destroy. He wants to destroy sinners and the wicked and, given the track record and pace of humankind, He will be quite busy going happily about His wishes...

But I digress. I'd like to point out that the whole problem is ostensibly resolved in 1 John 2:19

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us...."

We, who were once "True Believers" but later left the faith, were not really "True Believers" to begin with and our leaving shows that! Ergo, we've not been granted salvation and thus not lost it. Who can, if only "true believers" are granted salvation, and only the faithful to the Church were ever "true believers"?

Similarly, I'd like to also point out that a "Truly Forgiving God" can forgive anything -- bar none -- and if there is one thing God cannot forgive, this shows that He never really was a "Truly Forgiving God" to begin with.

[edit for Amos -- Quite a word game. Have you perhaps looked into etymology? Here's a little on the Hebrew origin of the word 'man' [a good starter since, afterall, the God of this particular account originated in Hebrew writing]: The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and is related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah); it is also the name Adam (see Gen. 2:20). (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=Genesis+2:4-2:25&version=NIV); 'adam' means 'a human being [a man]', 'people [human beings, or Men]', and 'red or ruddy colored, as of the soil' -- in other words, earthly (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRHEB1.htm)]

[Amos]

Originally posted by Sensei Meela

[edit for Amos -- Quite a word game. Have you perhaps looked into etymology? Here's a little on the Hebrew origin of the word 'man' [a good starter since, afterall, the God of this particular account originated in Hebrew writing]: The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and is related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah); it is also the name Adam (see Gen. 2:20). (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=Genesis+2:4-2:25&version=NIV); 'adam' means 'a human being [a man]', 'people [human beings, or Men]', and 'red or ruddy colored, as of the soil' -- in other words, earthly (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRHEB1.htm)]

Of course and the redemption of man will be the removal of his human-ity which is a "condition of being" that belongs to the being called man. I hold here that man was created in Gen 1, was formed in Gen.2 (essence precedes existence) and the earthli-ness or ego identity was not created until Gen.3 . . . wherefore they felt shame (cf. Gen.2 :25). Notice that the second nature was never formed to have a corporeal body and therefore remains an illusion wherefore it can be an attribute of man (like red hiar). Hence the -hu was caused by 'a dam' to create Adam.

So now when they crucified Jesus they nailed his empty ego to the cross. It was empty because his knowledge had forsaken him (his knowledge was personified to be his apostles) and was robbed of his clothes in case the clothes make the man.

[Pouye]

Originally posted by Sensei Meela
[B]But Pouye, God could be the ultimate 'peaceful police officer,' if He wanted. There is nothing He can't do; no solution devoid of violence that He can't think of and execute; no crime He could not simply prevent altogther. God doesn't want to be peaceful, He wants to destroy. He wants to destroy sinners and the wicked and, given the track record and pace of humankind, He will be quite busy going happily about His wishes...

then I suggest it unwise to define Him contrary to what the Bible says:
"As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die?" Ezekiel 33:11

But I digress. I'd like to point out that the whole problem is ostensibly resolved in 1 John 2:19

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us...."

This is not a resolution of all of the cases, as I have pointed out in my first post...

Similarly, I'd like to also point out that a "Truly Forgiving God" can forgive anything -- bar none -- and if there is one thing God cannot forgive, this shows that He never really was a "Truly Forgiving God" to begin with.

If He is also just God, which I believe He is, He will judge people fairly based on their entire "big picture" in life:

"But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Words of Jesus in Luke 12:48)

Being a forgiving person doesn't mean you allow people to do anything they want to you or anyone else. You can forgive a criminal and still put a restraining order against that criminal.

Think about this: It would be UNFAIR for God to force someone to be with Him for all eternity if they don't want to be -- if by their actions and choices they communicate that they would rather be anywhere besides where God dwells. If you son or daughter just cannot stand to "live at home with the parents" because they just don't like the parents, the parents can forgive their kids for their hate, but wouldn't it be wrong and unfair for the parents to say, "I have forgiven you for hating us. Now you have to live with us forever, since we were gracious enough to grant you forgiveness for rejecting us."

If you are talking about forcing people to go to heaven, wouldn't heaven seem like hell for people who hate God?

Rock

[Amos]

Originally posted by Pouye


If He is also just God, which I believe He is, He will judge people fairly based on their entire "big picture" in life:

"But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Words of Jesus in Luke 12:48)

But that still does not allow sinners to get to heaven. If much more is given much more will have "to be loosed" and/or "bound" to get to heaven; bound to take with and loosed to leave behind and that very well means that we must know beforehand what we can take and what we must leave behind or else we might not know who we are when we get there. Oops! Better not have faith in things hoped for either.

[Magus55]

Pouye, while I disagree with the OSNAS position and think the verses posted pertain more to those who knew Jesus was God, and knew what salvation was, but gave it up for their old ways, or they were trying to recruficy Christ, i'm curious what your opinion on these verses is:

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

Are you claiming we are greater than God, so much so that we can remove ourselves from His hand?

Who ever is saved by Christ is guaranteed eternal life. How can God promise eternal life, but then take it away? And Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to convict and guide all those who are saved. How could someone indwelled with the Holy Spirit ever get so far as to lose salvation? I think one can backslide, but I think the Holy Spirit remains with them and eventually pulls them back.

[christ-on-a-stick]

Hello Magus.

While I understand, of course, that your preceding post was addressed specifically to Pouye, I hope that you won't mind my intrusion with a few of my thoughts. Are you claiming we are greater than God, so much so that we can remove ourselves from His hand? Are you claiming that God does not, in fact, so value "Free Will" that he would deign to influence any person in their decision, whether or not, to "be plucked" from his hand by virtue of either their own reasoning or another's persuasion? Who ever is saved by Christ is guaranteed eternal life. How can God promise eternal life, but then take it away? If your reasoning is correct, I then eagerly look forward to seeing you in Heaven and I'm sure we will have a good laugh about all this worldy strife. "Hey, remember when we were on II and..." ;) And Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to convict and guide all those who are saved. All I can say to this is that either the Holy Spirit got a flat tire, or every single one of the ex-Christians who once truly believed they were being influenced by the Holy Spirit (but is no longer) is a bald-faced liar. How could someone indwelled with the Holy Spirit ever get so far as to lose salvation? Would you like me to provide you with relevant links that demonstrate how this has occurred? Unless, of course, you presuppose that any "testimony" running contrary to your established belief is primae facie false, I would be more than pleased to do so.

COAS

[Pouye]

Originally posted by Magus55
Pouye, while I disagree with the OSNAS position and think the verses posted pertain more to those who knew Jesus was God, and knew what salvation was, but gave it up for their old ways, or they were trying to recruficy Christ, i'm curious what your opinion on these verses is:

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

Are you claiming we are greater than God, so much so that we can remove ourselves from His hand?

Who ever is saved by Christ is guaranteed eternal life. How can God promise eternal life, but then take it away? And Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to convict and guide all those who are saved. How could someone indwelled with the Holy Spirit ever get so far as to lose salvation? I think one can backslide, but I think the Holy Spirit remains with them and eventually pulls them back.

Can any (outside) man or woman break the marriage contract between my wife and I? If we want to stay married through thick and thin, the only way is if someone killed one or both of us. The only other way a marriage contract can be broken is when one party or the other says it is finished or death terminates the contract. Since God says He will hold up His side of the contract (salvation), that doesn't necessarily mean that you or I will hold up our end. (What I am saying here will only make sense to Christians who believe that people actually have free will and play a part in the relationship between themselves and God.)

"Look, I am coming quickly. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown. All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it." Revelation 3:11-12

"Hold tightly to the eternal life that God has given you, which you have confessed so well before many witnesses." 1 Timothy 6:12

Hold on...Hold tightly....

It is important to realize that salvation is secure IN CHRIST. However, being IN CHRIST is not something that Jesus says just happens automatically:

"Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who parts from me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers." John 15:5-6a

Jesus says that our part is to NOT part. To remain in Him is what He tells us to do. This is another warning to Christians from Christ Himself.

After Peter gives the admonition to grow in faith, etc. he says this:

"Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 1:10-11

(Which implies, "if you do NOT do these things, you will fall, and you will NOT receive a rich welcome...")

Listen, brother... I'm not trying to be a hard nose. I grew up in churches which taught that nobody can loose their salvation. When I studied it for myself (especially paying attention to the original languages (Greek, etc.) ) I found the Bible full of warnings... warnings about falling away, losing your crown, losing faith, apostasy, being cut off, etc.
Then I noticed dozens of admonitions to cling to God, hold fast to Christ, persevere, hold on to what I have, do not be deceived, etc.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that this is the conclusion I've reached through much study. As a Bible translator, I have to deal with these passages in the original languages to translate them correctly. Ever time I do, I don't see a lot of room to say, "There is nothing I can do to fall away and loose my salvation. My faith is invincible."

It certainly seems to me Biblically that God can be disowned. To disown God, you first have to "own" Him.

God Bless,

Rock

[Amos]

Originally posted by Pouye

It certainly seems to me Biblically that God can be disowned. To disown God, you first have to "own" Him.

God Bless,

Rock

Hi Pouye, I must say that you are a good brewmaster to come up with recepies like that one.

[Sensei Meela]

Originally posted by Pouye
then I suggest it unwise to define Him [as happy to destroy the wicked] contrary to what the Bible says:
"As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die?" Ezekiel 33:11
Contrasted with...
Ps. 137:8-9
"O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us - he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Being a forgiving person doesn't mean you allow people to do anything they want to you or anyone else. You can forgive a criminal and still put a restraining order against that criminal.

Think about this: It would be UNFAIR for God to force someone to be with Him for all eternity if they don't want to be -- if by their actions and choices they communicate that they would rather be anywhere besides where God dwells. If you son or daughter just cannot stand to "live at home with the parents" because they just don't like the parents, the parents can forgive their kids for their hate, but wouldn't it be wrong and unfair for the parents to say, "I have forgiven you for hating us. Now you have to live with us forever, since we were gracious enough to grant you forgiveness for rejecting us." I thought the definition of 'forgiveness' was to "wash away" all transgressions and "relent from seeking punishment" for them [...who woulda thought it really meant to redirect your vindictive anger at a perfect and sinless being, spilling "divine blood" instead of an animals'? Is this punishment fair or just? To inflict the consequence of sin on a sinless being? God's moral judgment is perversely distorted as compared to ours, it would seem.

Though it would be trying (for me, lacking omnipotence and omnibenevolence), I could forgive the crack-head for robbing me for the twelfth time. Even if it were a brutal attack, murder even...I could (conceivably) "wash away" the transgression from my mind and "relent from seeking punishment" or retribution. Surely, God can do better than I, giving even twelve time losers another chance...no further chances = no forgiveness.

[Amos]

Originally posted by Pouye

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that this is the conclusion I've reached through much study. As a Bible translator, I have to deal with these passages in the original languages to translate them correctly. Ever time I do, I don't see a lot of room to say, "There is nothing I can do to fall away and loose my salvation. My faith is invincible.

It certainly seems to me Biblically that God can be disowned. To disown God, you first have to "own" Him.



. . . and the natives ask: so learned master, sir, how can I obtain such a 'God-mobile' that will never crash?

Hello Pouye, let me show you how and why your faith will be your stumbling block. Your studies suggest that faith begs for understanding and you told us earlier that every time you learn something new many more questions appear. The reason for this is that on your side of the great divide faith cannot be conceived to exist without doubt and so every time you go fishing for understanding you will reel in more doubt for the simple reason that the big ones you did not get are on the other side of you boat (the great divide).

To get to the other side of your mind (your boat) you must first defrock (annihilate) your faith (defrock Peter) so all doubt can be removed from your mind (Thomas, who was the twin of Peter for this reason, must be made 'hot' with the response "my Lord and my God" (to you). If this, you will be able to "walk on water" and go fishing on the other side of the great divide where there is no faith, and therefore no doubt, and your new cloak will be one of understanding because you will be taught in, instead of about, the [thousand year] reign of God (because that will be your new 'fishing ground' that earlier casted shadows of doubt in your net).

Oh yes, it's in the bible in the end of John just after Jesus told his disciples (you're one of them you told us earlier) while he showed them his wounds: "as the father has send me, so I send you."

I can go on about this in further detail but I know that you will understand already.

[calladus]

Originally posted by Pouye

This is one of the coolest, yet most mysterious verses in my Bible. It seems contradictory for an all-powerful God to give up even one little hair of his Son's head, let alone give Him over to death. Jesus said:

“The Father loves me because I lay down my life that I may have it back again. No one can take my life from me. I lay down my life voluntarily.”
John 10:17-


Pouye,
This is a point of contention for me. . . I don't really see Jesus' death as a sacrifice.

If I take as given that the events actually happened as described, then I can't help be unimpressed. At that point in time, Jesus was the only living person on the planet that was absolutely SURE that he was going to heaven! There was NO doubt! Yea, the bible says that he wanted to keep on living, (that the 'cup be passed'), but I have to wonder about that too. He was due to arrive at God's side, and in fact, if you believe in the Trinity, then he actually is only an aspect of God.

He suffered on the cross? Big deal - Vietnam era to modern day prisoners of war have endured MUCH worse for much longer before they 'gave up the ghost.'

He was dead for 3 days? So what? He knew he was coming back. Either death was as sleep for him, or his spirit was concious and he knew he was coming back.


I was always more impressed with Prometheus' sacrifice for giving Humankind the gift of fire. If I take his premise as being true then he is STILL having his liver ripped out on a daily bases!

Geeze, he gives the gift of fire and gets this punishment? Think of how much more severe the punishment would have been if he had given Humans Eternal Life (or the keys to the gates of Olympus in this case! :) )

[Postcard73]

Originally posted by calladus
This is a point of contention for me. . . I don't really see Jesus' death as a sacrifice. Whether or not Jesus' death involved any significant sacrifice has been discussed before. I believe this (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70789&perpage=25&pagenumber=1) is the most recent thread. I find it an interesting topic, but I would like to redirect people there if you want to discuss it now, rather than letting this thread stray to far...

[Calzaer]

God is not standing over you with a club.

Yes he is. Hell is the club. Worship me, or I beat you forever.

[Calzaer]

Is that NOT a club? Or did I miss something?

[calladus]

Originally posted by Calzaer
Is that NOT a club? Or did I miss something?
Naw, I've never thought of it as a club.

I think of it more as a "Hell Gun". If God is real, then he has you at gunpoint, "Do as I say, and LIKE it! Or I pull the trigger. . ."


"Punk!"

[/Dirty Harry]