An interesting story heard in a sermon

[Crawling Chaos]

Hello all, I went to church this evening for the families sake and during the sermon the pastor told us a story that seems to me a little contrived. I'm wondering if anyone else has heard this story and what they think about it.

He said that a group of Christians in Iraq were taken by Saddam's soldiers to one of his worst prisons, called the 'white ship' I believe. One of these christians was locked in a cell with about 10 muslims. Deciding it was his duty to free the muslims by sharing with them the message of christ, he drew a cross on the wall or some such thing. One of the muslims was curious and asked him about it, but after hearing the explanation said that the Christian should pray to Allah instead. During the night this same muslim had a vision in which christ appeared to him and told him he would free the christian. The next morning the christian woke up by being kissed on the hand and cheek by the muslim who became a believer. Sound a little fishy to anyone else?

I remember going to a youth church quite a few years ago and hearing the preacher talk about the christian martyr at the Colombine massacre. Recently I read that that story was a legend. I'm quite sure that the story I heard tonight belongs to that same category, but I could be wrong?

[Postcard73]

Hey Crawling Chaos- welcome to the IIDB. I know when I was going to church, I used to hear stories from time to time like the one you related. I can't specifically say that any one of those stories is made up, but I suspect most (maybe all) of them are. The one you posted could be true, or at least be grounded in an actual conversion event, but even if it is, then what does it really prove?

[Gawen]

Welcome Crawling Chaos

Take the story like any other unsubstantiated hear-say story with a grain of salt. If it is true, it only proves that Muslims fall under the same delusions as any other. The only part I can believe in is a Xtian was locked up. Stories like this only remind me of tabloid stories. You know the type, "Siberian claims Christ is Lord because visit from angels in UFO"

[joedad]

The story is total hooey. I attended catholic school and heard lots of stories like that. They are all anecdotal and intended to produce an ooooooooo – aaaaaaaaaahhh response. It would be interesting if you investigated it and reported back.

[variant 13]

HI Crawling Chaos (lovecraft fan?):

More than likely it is a story of the power of the lord :rolleyes:

But if it is true then I would say the fact that it took place in one of his worst prisons would be a reasonable explanation.

[Amlodhi]

Originally posted by Crawling Chaos

I'm wondering if anyone else has heard this story and what they think about it.

Like others have indicated, I also heard many stories such as this one during my church attendance days. In these cases, subsequent investigation would invariably either lead to a dead end or show the story to be mere urban legend.

As to what I think about it:

I think it shows just how little change there has been in mankind's predilection for imagination and embellishment over the last few thousand years.

Namaste'

Amlodhi

[faust]

Would a pastor lie? Here's *my* anecdotal story Crowling Chaos..
There is a mythical story making the email rounds and apparantly the pastor circles about a bunch of soldiers in Iraq and a minefield.

It goes that the soldiers were bogged down in a huge sandstorm and they were stuck by the side of a river they wanted to cross. Well the soldiers all go pray with the chaplain for Jesus to show up and make the storm go away. Naturally the storm ends the next morning and they see "all these shining disks partially buried in teh sand on the opposite shore where they were going to land." Of course the storm had uncovered a mine field. You can find this on snopes (too lazy to link). Thank Jesus for saving them. Oddly no major news organizations reported this *miracle*. Anyway, here's where it gets personal for me...

I had come across this story before and I was sitting around in the local coffee shop and i'm reading the paper, and in there there's a story about a local pastor who was a chaplain in iraq. He mentions this one time he was in iraq and.... "minefield story". Bullshit! I couldn't believe it. This guy was *obviously* "lying for jesus". So yeah. A local pastor in a local church here tried to pass off a *KNOWN BOGUS STORY* as reality. Not even his cousin's brother's friend's army unit.. He said it as though it were HIM.

I emailed the author with the relevant information about the bogus story and got back a thank you reply from her. I tried to get in touch with the pastor a few times but there was never anyone at the church when i stopped by or called. I gave up and I don't care. But there. A Pastor, a chaplain (he actually *was* a chaplain in Iraq)... LYING FOR JESUS.

Why? Are there not enough good things in his church to bring people to jesus w/o him lying about it? bah..

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Crawling Chaos
The next morning the christian woke up by being kissed on the hand and cheek by the muslim who became a believer. Sound a little fishy to anyone else?

Sounds more, uh, romantic than inspirational, actually.

[4God]

Do you all truly believe that this is "legend" and "myth"?

How, w/o a shred of evidence, does Christianity or any other religion survive. I mean, w/o one iota, you think people would just go on and on just because they wanted a little confort when their loved one died?

That's silly!!


I find it very disconcerting that most of your critiques of said things seem to say "ahh..it's just a legend." Christians do not deny 99.9% of natural laws, why do you all dismiss 110% of supernatural phenomena without so much as a second glance?

I would have thought most of you might have said something along these lines:

"Given the mental state of the prison guard, they undoubtedly had cause to believe that their rule was coming to an imminent end and that their god "Allah" had indeed failed them. That gave them, and this one in particular, a disposition to be vulnerable to anything contrary to his prevailing belief system. So, it then follows that, when the "chrisitians" espouse their beliefs that one of these guards was so distraught in his mind that he had a dream with Jesus in it. It would be no more or less strange had you or eye had a nightmare. These "christians" were the conquerors and all too often in history have we seen where the conquered become more ardent adherents to the religious customs of their conquerors then the conquerors themselves." blah blah blah....

At least that breaks down the situation link by link(if very cynical and chock full of holes itself)


Also, I'm sure many of you know about the Station Nightclub Fire here in RI,USA. I'm sure that the observable evidence is that on 2/20/03 this building burnt to the ground. Approx 100 people died. One guy who was at the bottom of the pile survived with a few burns. He attributes this to God. Many of you will attribute it to something else...however, it isn't legend and it was clearly observable. The author "God" or "statiscal anamoly" is what is up for debate.

[orpheus last chant]

Originally posted by 4God
Do you all truly believe that this is "legend" and "myth"?


Ummm, hmmm, let me think 'bout it,.... yap!
In the realm of unsupported, anecdotical, and lacking a trustwrothy source stories, everything is guilty until proven true.


How, w/o a shred of evidence, does Christianity or any other religion survive.


How, without a shred of evidence, does UFO/ magnetic therapy/ believe still survive? Those to recent for you? How about acupuncture, predating Christianity?
Besides, no one here said anything about religions not having evidence, just hear-say stories trying desperatly to suffice for it.


I mean, w/o one iota, you think people would just go on and on just because they wanted a little confort when their loved one died?


Some would. And some don't. Some have other reasons. Some don't base their beliefs in reasons, but feelings.


I find it very disconcerting that most of your critiques of said things seem to say "ahh..it's just a legend."


Mmmno, most critiques seem to say "Why on earth should I believe everythign that I hear."


Christians do not deny 99.9% of natural laws, why do you all dismiss 110% of supernatural phenomena without so much as a second glance?


Because, most of us have heard them. or similar ones, and understand their causes, and are aware of their argumental value.


I would have thought most of you might have said something along these lines:

"Given the mental state of the prison guard, they undoubtedly had cause to believe that their rule was coming to an imminent end and that their god "Allah" had indeed failed them. That gave them, and this one in particular, a disposition to be vulnerable to anything contrary to his prevailing belief system. So, it then follows that, when the "chrisitians" espouse their beliefs that one of these guards was so distraught in his mind that he had a dream with Jesus in it. It would be no more or less strange had you or eye had a nightmare. These "christians" were the conquerors and all too often in history have we seen where the conquered become more ardent adherents to the religious customs of their conquerors then the conquerors themselves." blah blah blah....


No, it is obvious they are pure fiction. apart from the vague temporal and locational coordinates, they're the same "stuff" I read in my "History of saints and saintdom".
To do that would be to try to rationalise fiction. Like saying " The seven dwarfs were clearly missing emotional commitment, and this is the reason they accepted Snow-White"

Besides, have you got something against a healthy dose of skepticism? If some guy stops you on the street, and says he's Jesus reincarnate, adn you should follow him, than proceeds to tell you stories of miracles he's just did 3 min ago, would you believe him?

We, have no burden, to prove them wrong. It's up to thsoe who suppose they are right. In this case, you. We, don't have to adress every crazy claim, and unsupported story. The saying goes: One must have an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.


Also, I'm sure many of you know about the Station Nightclub Fire here in RI,USA. I'm sure that the observable evidence is that on 2/20/03 this building burnt to the ground. Approx 100 people died. One guy who was at the bottom of the pile survived with a few burns. He attributes this to God.


Please read what you just wrote. 100 people die a horrible death and one survives. But wait, not intact, the only survivor's got burns. And that's a miracle? I'm sorry, but my brain keeps saying "does not compute".
Do you understand, if true, what this would point to God? He selectively chooses who he gives a second chance. Not only that, to sturr some worry into one person, he needs to kill 100 other people and make (I can only suppose) substantial material loss.
And he is suppose to be benevolent, or omnipotent?

Second. Do you realise how selfish it is, that God would save just one, and not bother to save 100 other equally sinful souls (what's that saying, we're all equal in the eyes of God). Why that guy? Why did he need to give him burns.

Are you familliar with the concept of selective miracles. This is your hidden premise. You might not even know it's there. It means God has intention of interfiering with natural laws; can and is able to do miracles. But he chooses not to intervene to do them with all the children dieing in all the hospitals in the world. He doesn't even let some die an easy death. Some have excruciating pains. His non-intervention makes him the world's biggest monster.

:banghead: :banghead:

[variant 13]

Given the mental state of the prison guard,

I think that the muslims in question were prisoners as they were in a

cell

How, w/o a shred of evidence, does Christianity or any other religion survive. I mean, w/o one iota, you think people would just go on and on just because they wanted a little confort when their loved one died?

That's silly!!

No that's human. For how many thousands of years did people think the earth was flat for?

The evidence that is most important to most religious people is the stuff in their head - I believe/ I have experienced the glory of XXX.

find it very disconcerting that most of your critiques of said things seem to say "ahh..it's just a legend." Christians do not deny 99.9% of natural laws, why do you all dismiss 110% of supernatural phenomena without so much as a second glance?

That's coz there's usually lot of evidence.

Though Creationists will argue with lots of things.

"...110% of supernatural phenomena..."

Quite impossible, we can only do that with 100% of it.
And actually some/many do given it a second glance (and provide links to prove it, though not me I'm still new at this sort of thing).

It's coz most/all supernatural phenomena have no evidence to support it or the evidence is based on flawed research.

Also, I'm sure many of you know about the Station Nightclub Fire here in RI,USA. I'm sure that the observable evidence is that on 2/20/03 this building burnt to the ground. Approx 100 people died. One guy who was at the bottom of the pile survived with a few burns. He attributes this to God. Many of you will attribute it to something else...however, it isn't legend and it was clearly observable. The author "God" or "statiscal anamoly" is what is up for debate.

I would say that he survived coz he was at the bottom of the pile, stats have nothing to do with WHY he survived.

[sakrilege]

Originally posted by 4God
Approx 100 people died. One guy who was at the bottom of the pile survived with a few burns. He attributes this to God. Can you guarantee that none of those 100 people prayed to god to be saved? Sounds like a very poor record to me for a supposed supernatual entity.

[Aravnah Ornan]

How, w/o a shred of evidence, does Christianity or any other religion survive. I mean, w/o one iota, you think people would just go on and on just because they wanted a little confort when their loved one died?[emphasis added] I'd be interested to hear how you answer your own question. The words "any other religion" include those religions that you consider to be false. How, without a shred of evidence, do all of those false religions survive?

[joedad]

4God
Also, I'm sure many of you know about the Station Nightclub Fire here in RI,USA. I'm sure that the observable evidence is that on 2/20/03 this building burnt to the ground. Approx 100 people died. One guy who was at the bottom of the pile survived with a few burns. He attributes this to God.Hello 4God. Welcome to Infidels.

I can remember a poster a year or so ago, a teenage girl, who concluded that the reason she made the cheerleading squad was because of her god. Another poster brought up the issue of human suffering generally, and asked her whether she felt somewhat selfish or foolish considering god gave her her wish, while other people continue to suffer horrifically. I mean, why would such a powerful being grant her wish to become a cheerleader, yet allow infants and toddlers to die by the millions across the planet?

She didn't hang around long but I think she learned something with that exchange.

Also, one can witness these events daily. Athletes are constantly thanking their favorite sky person for allowing them to win a game. I've never seen anyone thank their god for losing, or thank god when someone doesn't recover or escape injury and death.

Another guy ends up on the bottom of a pile of devastation and dead people and thanks his god for his good fortune. Truly, that's an image for the ages. You don't see anything wrong with that picture?

[trendkill]

How, w/o a shred of evidence, does Christianity or any other religion survive. I mean, w/o one iota, you think people would just go on and on just because they wanted a little confort when their loved one died?

I think many people will believe many things without a shred of evidence, and I chalk most instances where strange events or coincidences are attributed to God, as well as most religious adherence in general, for that matter, up to simple credulity.

I do think there are other people, who are more thoughtful, who are persuaded by misleading evidence in favor of deities. I don't think these people are stupid, and I don't necessarily think they'd be atheists if they were smarter; in many cases I think they simply lack perspective.

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by 4God
That's silly!!

Superstitions based on emotion rather than reality often are silly, that's true, but people adhere to them anyway.

[Krosis]

Originally posted by joedad
Also, one can witness these events daily. Athletes are constantly thanking their favorite sky person for allowing them to win a game. I've never seen anyone thank their god for losing, or thank god when someone doesn't recover or escape injury and death.

Time for some more Carlin...

"Ya never hear 'em say "Jesus made me drop the ball." or "The Good Lord tripped me up behind the line of scrimage". "

[Aravnah Ornan]

Originally posted by joedad
I can remember a poster a year or so ago, a teenage girl, who concluded that the reason she made the cheerleading squad was because of her god. Another poster brought up the issue of human suffering generally, and asked her whether she felt somewhat selfish or foolish considering god gave her her wish, while other people continue to suffer horrifically. I mean, why would such a powerful being grant her wish to become a cheerleader, yet allow infants and toddlers to die by the millions across the planet? A similar thought helped smooth the path to my deconversion. The last church that I attended preached Divine prosperity and more generally the idea that G-d would bring joy into the lives of the faithful. Since I was doing well, I thanked G-d for blessing me thus. But when many other people in the church told of their misfortune, I started to wonder why G-d would single me out for blessings, since I saw no reason why I was any more deserving.

[Hazel-rah]

Originally posted by Aravnah Ornan:
But when many other people in the church told of their misfortune, I started to wonder why G-d would single me out for blessings, since I saw no reason why I was any more deserving.
My favorite explanation for theism: The God of Random Shit. Most often seen during disasters or tragedy, when people assure each other that it's "all part of God's plan." But I think that people use it in times of prosperity as well, because who wants to think that they're undeserving of wealth or good luck when other people--good people--are suffering? Surely God sees something in them that makes them more worthy of the blessing than those other poor jerks?

[spinoza]

Originally posted by 4God
Christians do not deny 99.9% of natural laws, why do you all dismiss 110% of supernatural phenomena without so much as a second glance?

Why would Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, polytheists, or anyone deny natural laws? "Natural" laws have to do with "nature," what we all can see and experience. Anyone with sensory perception and sufficient intelligence can test them. Everyone behaves as if they were materialists, no matter what philosophical stand they take; if they didn't, they'd starve.

The SUPERnatural, on the other hand, is quite distinct from nature. That's why they call it SUPERnatural. It doesn't behave in any way like the laws of nature that everyone can perceive and test. None of it is necessary for existence, the way an understanding of nature is necessary for existence. None of it is observable and testable by everyone (or, arguably, by anyone).

The natural and the SUPERnatural ("super" = "above" -- the "super"natural is "above" nature) are not the same thing at all; one is not equivalent to the other. Your statement seems to imply that the two things are equal, and should be judged by the same standards or treated with some kind of "fairness" norm: I.e., "It's not 'fair' for me to believe your natural claims if you won't believe my supernatural ones." Not apples and apples. Not even apples and oranges. Apples and ghosts.

100% of the people can perceive nature; that's why theists of all stripes, as well as atheists, are willing to accept observable laws of nature. Theism or atheism has nothing to do with it. The ability to perceive the supernatural -- something which, by definition, defies the natural laws we all accept -- has not been so generously distributed. Cognitive dissonance probably plays a role; it's hard to believe two contradictory things at once. I usually discard the one I can't perceive in favor of the one I can. I don't give supernatural things a "second" glance because I never saw them the first time.

[christ-on-a-stick]

spinoza wrote: 100% of the people can perceive nature; that's why theists of all stripes, as well as atheists, are willing to accept observable laws of nature. Theism or atheism has nothing to do with it. The ability to perceive the supernatural -- something which, by definition, defies the natural laws we all accept -- has not been so generously distributed. Cognitive dissonance probably plays a role; it's hard to believe two contradictory things at once. I usually discard the one I can't perceive in favor of the one I can. I don't give supernatural things a "second" glance because I never saw them the first time. :notworthy

[diana]

Oh hell. I see the Infidels still can't resist replying to someone with a handle like "4God," particularly since he (?) can't resist making an argument that's a duck in a barrel. Dogpile, this.

I was going to reply to Crawling Chaos' OP yesterday but got distracted by...oh, probably a glass of wine or something. Better Nate than lever:

Originally posted by Crawling Chaos
Hello all, I went to church this evening for the families sake and during the sermon the pastor told us a story that seems to me a little contrived. I'm wondering if anyone else has heard this story and what they think about it. It seems a little contrived.

He said that a group of Christians in Iraq were taken by Saddam's soldiers to one of his worst prisons, called the 'white ship' I believe.Shouldn't be too difficult to find some newsworthy reference or write-up about that.

Here we go:

Jesus Liberates Prisoners in Iraq

Full Article PDF file here (http://www.oprev.org/ShofarPDFs/4thQtr03.pdf)

Jesus pointed to Mathias and told Sayed not to be concerned about Mathias. “I am responsible for Mathias, and I will release him from this place,” said Jesus.

“What about me?” asked Sayed. Jesus vanished before answering.

Mathias explained to his cellmates that Jesus had appeared to verify that Mathias belonged to Him and was speaking the truth. The Muslims immediately fell to their knees and began praying, asking Jesus to free them as well. Sayed’s dream came true one week later, as Mathias and most of the Christians who were arrested with him were released. (In April 2003, every prisoner was freed when U.S. troops liberated Baghdad.)

Under duress, I think the human psyche is capable of all sorts of inexplicable things. This could explain a strange dream about the big JC by a Muslim following a heated discussion with a Christian, who had insisted upon drawing upon the wall of the cell they all shared and writing his name. After all, if you consider the Muslim's natural bent toward accepting supernatural beliefs combined with the fact that his own prophet didn't seem to be doing much for him at the moment, it really isn't so far fetched. So the Christian seemed--if the basis of the story is to be believed--at peace and strong in his faith despite having been beaten and threatened. This is strong medicine to a fellow believer under such harsh conditions.

The bit I find completely unbelievable, even under those conditions, is that the rest of the Muslims in the cell also accepted Jesus.

It's one thing for a person to have a dream...ah...vision, and change his opinion based upon this "supernatural" experience. 'Tis a huge leap from there to say that all his fellow Muslims--Sunnis and Shiites both--just believed him and dropped their lifelong fervent beliefs.

4God...let's say you were in a similiar situation. You were thrown in a cell with 3 other Protestants and 2 Catholics and one Muslim. The Muslim quietly continues his daily prayers, even in the cell. He writes in Arabic on the wall, "There is only one God, and Muhammed is his prophet," and you have an argument with him about it--but you watch his quiet faith for a few days. Then one of your cellmates wakes up one morning, walks over and kisses the hand and cheek of the Muslim, saying that Muhammed had appeared to him in a dream saying the Muslim was protected and would be released in a few days. The Muslim is released as predicted.

Would you change your religion based upon this experience? Why or why not? (If not, what do you find believable about the story at persecution.com?)

d

Edit- Link corrected and article quote shortened for copyright purposes.

[Amos]

Originally posted by diana
I was going to reply to Crawling Chaos' OP yesterday but got distracted by...oh, probably a glass of wine or something. Better Nate than lever:

d

Hello there dear, are you the diana I used to know?

Do you remember telling me that you'll always love me?

[Howard]

These are the people who have no problem with talking snakes, walking on water and resurrections. Why would they doubt a story like this?

[diana]

Originally posted by Amos
Hello there dear, are you the diana I used to know?

Do you remember telling me that you'll always love me? What do you mean "used to know"?

I'm still here, Sweetheart. How ya been?

d

[Gawdawful]

True story: I had a dream on Xmas eve. Jesus came to me in the dream and told me that all I had to do was believe in him and I would be saved. I asked him what he meant by saved. He didn't elaborate but merely repeated his previous statement. So, in a moment of utter blasphemy, I told him to stop bothering me and just go away and die. He then was dragged off by a couple of Roman soldiers and did just that, died. Dammit if he didn't come back a couple days later and hit me up with the same thing again. Very impatient with his bothersome insistence yet filling in with no details about what he meant despite my questions regarding that, I killed him myself. Jesus had an amazingly vivid and "life-like" reaction to the sword, which had mysteriously materialized in my hand, I plunged into his torso, he died; while writhing about on the ground where he fell, he smeared "Jesus saves" in his own blood just before kicking the bucket.

What am I to make of this dream?

Oh, wait.

It was only a dream. Or was it God talking to me?


Warrenokie (not kidding whatsoever, this dream really happened to me personally, on Xmas Eve, just as I stated)

[Astoria_Paraonia]

Considering I have heard the exact same story concerning the Vietnam War when a bunch of communists were converted by a christian in a military camp, and the exact same story concerning Gulf War 1 I'm more than a little dubious

[Biff the unclean]

The guy who cleans my pool tells me that he has a lucky Giants cap.
Every time, EVERY TIME, he wears it to Pac Bell Park the Giants win. But once he left it at his cousins house and they lost.
Praying has nothing to do with the wind blowing sand off of mines. Hats on the other hand are closely associated with the wind. One of those GIs must have been wearing a lucky hat.

The pool guy had the good graces to wink when he told that story. Bet the pastor didn't

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by 4God
How, w/o a shred of evidence, does Christianity or any other religion survive.
I got just one word for you, son... Elvis.

I find it very disconcerting that most of your critiques of said things seem to say "ahh..it's just a legend." Christians do not deny 99.9% of natural laws, why do you all dismiss 110% of supernatural phenomena without so much as a second glance?
Because even 1% of supernatural phenomena denies 100% of natural law.


Approx 100 people died. One guy who was at the bottom of the pile survived with a few burns. He attributes this to God. Many of you will attribute it to something else...
No, we're quite willing to attribute the survival of this one guy to God, as long as you are willing to attribute the death of the other 100 to God.

See how it goes? :)

[Biff the unclean]

Originally posted by Yahzi
Because even 1% of supernatural phenomena denies 100% of natural law.

It is interesting that Theists think that the supernatural is such a simple little answer. They never stop to consider that it is the most complicated answer that there is. If there is a supernatural then EVERYTHING WE KNOW IS WRONG. We couldn't even know that 2 + 2 = 4 any more.