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Jayjay
January 1, 2004, 10:40 AM
I'm looking for information on the following quote:

Such a condition [these Doppler shifts] would imply that we occupy a unique position in the universe, ... But the unwelcome supposition of a favored location must be avoided at all costs ... is intolerable ... moreover, it represents a discrepancy with the theory because the theory postulates homogeneity.

- Edwin Hubble, The Observational Approach to Cosmology (1937)

I bumped into this in an AiG article titled Cosmologists Can’t Agree and Are Still In Doubt! (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0814_cosmologies.asp) by John Hartnett and saw it recently used by Socrates at TheologyWeb. A google search revealed that Robert Gentry used this quote in the following form:

Discovery of a Nearby Universal Center Is the Smoking Gun Signature of GENESIS that Overturns Big Bang's Cosmological Principle (http://www.orionfdn.org/papers/arxiv-7-unicode.htm)

Instead of an open-minded approach to this possibility, Hubble's 1937 book reveals a strong bias against it [2], "Such a condition would imply that we occupy a unique position in the universe, . . . . The hypothesis cannot be disproved, but it is unwelcome, . . . But the unwelcome supposition of a favored location must be avoided at all costs" (pp. 50-51). Later he added, "Such a favored position . . . is intolerable; moreover, it represents a discrepancy with the theory because the theory postulates homogeneity" (p.58-59).

Okay, here it looks like Hartnett (or whichever source he was using) conveniently forgot to mention that the quote was cobbled together from bits and pieces spanning 8 or 9 pages. I was wondering if anyone has actually read the original, or can confirm or deny whether this quote accurately reflects Hubble's ideas or if it's just another example of creationist quote mining?

* * *

Regarding Hartnett's article, I also have an unrelated question. He claims that:

The claim of the big-bangers that Gamow successfully predicted the CMB temperature in 1948 with a value of 5 K (later in the 1950s raised to 10 K), is undermined by the fact that McKellar successfully predicted a 2.3 K temperature, in 1941, from observation of absorption lines caused by quantum mechanical features of rotating diatomic interstellar molecules. Remember it wasn’t until 1965 when Penzias and Wilson discovered the radiation pouring in from the cosmos. Gold had argued in 1955 that thermalization of starlight would occur but never did the calculation which would have produced a temperature of 2.78 K.

I recall that McKellar never predicted a temperature, but rather measured it, and this measurement was interpreted as ambient starlight inside galaxies (because the method did not allow measurement in a dark background). Am I correct? What about Gold's alleged "calculation", what was it based on and if he never actually did it then how do we know the result would've been 2.78? I don't think I can trust Hartnett to be honest about that one either.

Dr.GH
January 1, 2004, 01:50 PM
Interesting, but I can't offer any help. When you are done with this, I suggest you send it to the TalkOrigins quote mine project

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/project.html

Valentine Pontifex
January 1, 2004, 03:29 PM
You might want to bring up this matter to the talk.origins newsgroup since this misquote might be useful. In addition you might bring it up at the Against the Mainstream (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=1) topic of the Bad Astronomy website.

People might find Answers in Genesis Gets it Wrong on Star Formation (http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/aig_on_star_formation.htm) by Tim Thompson interesting for how AiG deals with astronomy.

fando
January 3, 2004, 06:37 PM
My major was Astronomy and I don't really see how this quote is misrepresenting the thoughts of the day. When the redshift effect was first discovered by Hubble, the Earth did indeed seem to be occupying a favored position. Everything is moving away from us, after all. The key discovery on Hubble's part was the realization that if we assume Homogenity and Isotropy in the universe, then all points should be expanding away from each other, not just the Earth. In the quote, Hubble is just phrasing the problems with a unique Earth given the accepted assumptions of Homogenity and Isotropy. As presented, the quotes don't seem to cause any problems. However, it is easy to misinterpret what Hubble is saying by ignoring the context and era of the quote.

Dr.GH
January 3, 2004, 07:00 PM
fando, Good observation but I strongly doubt that AiG got it right. The first red flag was the number of ellipses. These creatos are well known to string the first to last sentence together in a "quote."

anthrosciguy
January 3, 2004, 07:07 PM
I notice that Hubble also said "Such a condition would imply that we...must be...intolerable", but he must've been referring to quote-altering miners there. :)

fando
January 4, 2004, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by Dr.GH
fando, Good observation but I strongly doubt that AiG got it right. The first red flag was the number of ellipses. These creatos are well known to string the first to last sentence together in a "quote."

Well, I should clarify that I didn't read the AiG stuff. I'm just posting my interpretations of the quotes as presented in this thread. That the AiG misinterprets Hubble from just these quotes shows how low they are willing to go in twisting the conventional knowledge of science to their own means.

Jayjay
January 6, 2004, 05:11 AM
I'm afraid I couldn't find that Hubble quote on the web, and the book isn't available at the local university library. This is pretty much the extent of my resources so I'm forced to put this thing on hold. Thanks for pointing me to the Bad Astronomy site though.

fando
January 6, 2004, 01:57 PM
Regarding Observational Approach to Cosmology: As this book is most likely out of print, one would have to find it at a university library. I'm pretty sure Caltech has it, so I'll just run over and take a peek. (I owe them for missing books though... :p) Watch this spot in a day or two.