Maybe I shouldn't care... but...

[Atheist Crusader]

Well actually, first of all, I'm not even sure if this is the right forum for this, and if it isn't, sorry mods, but please move it to the right place.

Second of all, I'm in High School, so keep that in mind when I'm talking about my peer group (which is mostly what I'll be doing in this post)

Ok, so I've been having some problems... mostly involving the fact that I care too much about things I perhaps shouldn't... like other people's religious beliefs. It hurts me very much to see people who are generally intelligent believe they have the Truth (tm), when I am fairly sure that they either haven't looked at the evidence, or are being misled by their church leaders or, even worse, by their parents (who might not even know they are misleading them).

What I speak of is the great (as in large) Mormon congregation we seem to have up here where I live. It seems that at least in the band program at Mountlake Terrace High School, every other person is a Mormon. I've asked them questions, to which they never give dissmissive answers, and always genuinely seem to believe that they are correct. I have also frequently talked about other religions' flaws with them, as they seem to be the only people who are prepared by their Church to even have any knowledge at all of other religions. They talk fairly rationally about other religions, which is why it disturbs me that they obviously haven't thought in that way about their own religion... or, perhaps, they have been given answers by people they trust, and so didn't think twice once they got a response. I don't really know what they've been told, and I guess that's the problem. They also seem to accept agnosticism (as I call it to avoid confusing it with the denial there is any higher power) as a valid way of looking at life, although they don't think I'm right.

I feel compelled to "preach" agnosticism/atheism to them, but I know that anything I say against their church will just be put off as "Anti-Mormon" since they really have gotten a fair amount of special attention from moronic christians trying to reconvert them to the "True Faith." I feel a moral dilemma when I read the many painful stories of deconversion (especially from the LDS faith), and want to help my friends. I really just don't know what to do... or if doing anything would really even help anyone at all.

I may or may not have feelings for a certain Momon female as well... although, surprisingly, besides the huge daunting fact that she IS LDS, she hasn't said anything religiously moronic at all... it could just be an act... who knows... sometimes I just want to give up on... well... all this crap.. but then I just don't... I hate hormones... and being almost the only person at my school who thinks and feels... it's disturbing.

I... think about this kind of crap too much... and... really really hate people lying to other people... if ANYONE has any suggestions, even if they are just to tell me to suck it up and get on with my life, they would be appreciated.

-Atheist Crusader

[Onager]

High School was two decades ago for me, but I have the same feelings. All I can tell you is that you learn to keep it to yourself unless someone messes with you or actually asks you about it. Watching others wallow in ignorance is frustrating, I know, but keep in mind that this is the same misguided instinct that causes Theists to prostelytise (someone please tell me how to spell that word - I can't even find it in my dictionary).

My fantasy is that I am independently wealthy and I am an anti-missionary; I just follow missionaries around saying "Don't listen to the lies!"

[Postcard73]

Hey AC-
I think what Onager said was good advice. If you confront your classmates about their ignorance, then you are probably going to harden them. I also have a tough time keeping my mouth shut, but you have to develop tact...

Just because they are Mormons doesn't mean you can't be friends with them. Where I live, if I didn't have xian friends, then I would only know a couple people. You said the one girl you are interested in hasn't said any moronic stuff; maybe religion isn't as important to her as it is to the people around her, or at least maybe she takes a less fundamental approach to her beliefs. Again: don't push atheism, but she might like to have someone around with whom she could question her beliefs. If you decide to pursue it, then I would suggest you don't bring up religion at all. If it is important to her, then she will bring it up. When that happens, be sincere and understanding as opposed to confrontational and argumentative. Stand your ground, but be nice about it...

Hope that helps...

[scigirl]

Originally posted by Atheist Crusader
I feel compelled to "preach" agnosticism/atheism to them,
Heh - probably as useless as the drive-by evangelicals here. Most people didn't deconvert by being preached at - it was more a proceses of being exposed to other ideas and critical thought.

I think the best thing you can do is make it known that you are not mormon - and live by example. If they see a non-theist out there being a happy, good and successfull person, maybe they'll have doubts that LDS is the "only" way.
I may or may not have feelings for a certain Momon female as well... although, surprisingly, besides the huge daunting fact that she IS LDS, she hasn't said anything religiously moronic at all...
I think there are shades of belief in any church. I worked with a couple agnostic mormons - and there are 3 mormons in my medical school class who have no problem with evolution and prescribing birth control and such. It happens.

I... think about this kind of crap too much... and... really really hate people lying to other people... if ANYONE has any suggestions, even if they are just to tell me to suck it up and get on with my life, they would be appreciated.
Well there's a 3rd option - find other things to talk about I suppose! I'm sure you can find common ground with a lot of your peers - sports or hobbies or even charity stuff that doesn't involve knocking on doors with books.

Good luck to ya -

scigirl

[Atheist Crusader]

Thanks for the replies, they really have helped, and if anyone else has any suggestions, they would still be appreciated. Sometimes I don't know if what I'm thinking is really rational or if I'm just being scared or if I'm just being hormonal, so I need to run things by people. What I have been doing is what you suggest, and, although (and I think this is quite funny) at least one of them has said that they are mentally inferior to myself, and proceeded to make a whole slew of connections illustrating such, he didn't seem to make the connection that I was not religious while he was. I find this entertaining.

Anyway, I suppose I am just feeling the pressure of the end of the year (and High School), and I'm going nuts... already. BTW, it is definitely not that she doesn't care about her religion... in fact, her family is "one of the most Mormon families ever" according to her peers. If there wasn't such a strong family focus in the religion, I wouldn't worry about it at all, but... yeah...

Again, thanks for the advice, and I suppose I will just hold course rather than... changing it.

[Richard1366]

Let's see...

There was this guy who found these gold sheets/tablets....

They were written in this strange language....

He was also given this special viewing piece that allowed him to translate the strange language....

The translation became the "Book of Mormon"...

He never showed the gold sheets/tablets to anyone but kept them hidden.....

I have a bridge I'd like to sell you...

[Krosis]

I'll echo what scgirl said.. and I'll add the following:

"cognitive dissonance"

don't preach atheism per se.. lead by example.. throw out comments and discussion points that will find those little chinks in their religious armor.. the more open minded ones will start to question whether they know it or not.

-cheers
-K

[Abalone]

As a former mormon, from a long line of mormons, I can tell you that your reaction to the LDS kids in your school is not surprising. I think that's pretty much how I and my friends were seen when I was in high school ( a long, long, time ago. *sigh*).

Mormons are not taught to go out and attack others' beliefs, the way some other fundamentalist sects seem to be. On the other hand, they are constantly told by their leadership, and by eachother, that theirs is the 'one true church', so by implication, the rest of us are going to hell... uh, I mean the telestial kingdom (don't ask).

I agree with scigirl. Most people don't deconvert by being preached at. If they have curious and intelligent minds they will find their way out. Those that don't may well be better off staying in their delusion.

As for the girl. If her family is as devout as you describe, expect problems if you get serious. In the mormon church, it's impossible to make it to the highest degree of heaven unless you are 'eternally married' to another mormon. She may be o.k. with that, but any hard core mormon family would pressure their daughter to go look for a returned missionary, and dump any "gentiles" that aren't willing to convert.

[A Pumpkin Drifter]

Don't put yourself into the position were you are "totally right and everything else totally wrong" because this will get you nowhere. It would be like a person preaching to you telling you how strayed from the path you are and must return to the true faith.

I only start promoting (not even, I'd say more like commenting) on atheism, freethought, agnosticism etc... when confronted by ignorant statements attacking one of these subjects. Then it's time to pull out the big guns and quiet down the false accusations but don't go bashing other people's beliefs just because you believe you are right, you are in no different position than those proselytizing to you.

[Viti]

Mormonism is as much a "lifestyle" as it is a religion. I know many people on the LDS roles, who go to church, work their "church job", tithe, wear the magical underwear and DO NOT BELIEVE ONE WORD OF IT. They stay in to appease their families, or "just in case". I worked for a Mormon family and my sister in law is a Jack Mormon which means raised in the church, on the rolls, but does not attend or tithe.

The worst part is,most are really kinda neat people. Family oriented, very capable and handy (every one I have met can cook, can, build things, sew, live well on small salaries due to amazing budgeting, etc due to the church wanting them to be prepared to survive), civic minded (many elected officials in Vegas are Mormons and almost all Eagle Scouts)....but they believe what I am convinced is the con of the century.

Anyway, as with all people, deconversions happen from within. Rather than preaching non-theism, I would suggest simply being the obviously sensitive and caring person you are and maybe they will want to ask you what your secret to happiness is :)

[Shake]

First let me say welcome, AC! Glad to have you here!

Second, it doesn't matter who is doing the prosyletizing (I think that's right, Onager), the victims ... er, ones being preached to are usually put on the defensive. So preaching by believers or nonbelievers is equally ineffective. It can also be taken as a hostile action.

Anyway, don't fret high school too much. Did I read correctly that you're nearly done anyway? Are you going to college afterwards? If so, where? You'll probably meet more mature women there whose minds are a bit more open that what you're used to.

I agree with most of what's been said already. I particularly liked Krosis' post. Lead by example. Just show everyone that a nonbeliever can be more "Christian" than most Christians.

[Brother Daniel]

Actually, I think it was Pumpkin Drifter who spelled the p-word correctly -- "proselytizing".

Hi AC. Xians know, when they do their proselytizing, that you can't expect fast results. You can only "plant seeds". The same principle works in the other direction. If you can make comments that are thought-provoking, while being careful to avoid even the appearance of attacking the Xians, you'll do a lot of good. Sometimes there will be a long delay before the effects are obvious. Many of the Xians to whose de-conversion you will have contributed will have dropped out of your life long before they show up here on Infidels as "one of us". So don't worry if it looks hopeless. It's not.

Blessings,

Bro D

[Atheist Crusader]

Thanks again fellow agnostic/athiest type peoples, I really appreciate the responses.

Specifically addressing Shake's response, I am almost done, but it's getting progressively harder as more things begin to happen that all seem to coincide with the same underlying problems which could be dealt with if people would only open their eyes. Unfortunately, the fear instilled in them from birth by our society (religious and secular) prevents most from doing anything about their problems.

I know people who are mature/near-perfect (in my mind) in their world views, but the problem is... well... probably some sort of chemicals, but I am (at least currently) just friends with most of these people, because I have this... I don't know... it's just... something... well... whatever.

Anyway, the speed thing is really what was concerning me, but now I realize that speed isn't important, results are. There is no hurry to get people to deconvert, as long as they are not completely irrational fundies (which none of these are). I suppose my as of yet short life spand creates a sense of urgency that shouldn't be there in my plans and thoughts. Taking over the world is hard work... I mean... bringing people to the light... or... what was I talking about?

Sorry, I'm really tired, and sometimes my thoughts wander, and for some reason I feel like I should leave those wanderings in.

To Rereiterate, Thanks again for all the advice, and if anyone else has anything to add, your input would be highly valued, even if I don't directly respond to you.

[Atheist Crusader]

Ok, is everyone ready for a really fun problem? My friend is "in love" with a Mormon girl, who says she loves him back. This has been demonstrated in the past by her breaking their "do not date until 16" rule for him on several occasions, basically also breaking their "no steady boyfriend" rule. Eventually, she told him that they couldn't be together because of religious differences. One of her "friends," a fellow Mormon, asked her to a dance that my friend was going to ask her to, and she agreed to go with her friend because he was Mormon.

My friend got exceedingly angry, and was planning on hurting her friend, but she got wind of this and told him not to. They then had a conversation in which they basically told each other they loved each other, but then she told him that she felt like god had chosen another path for her or something. He told her he would do anything for her, and she asked what she should do. He told her to follow her heart, and she told him she had to follow God.

I don't know if anyone has any suggestions at all, feel free to provide them, or if you just have any comments on any of my previous posts. This is really really bothering me, so any input would be appreciated.

Thanks again for all your help.

[Shake]

First, a big D'OH! over the proselytizing issue. I was in a hurry, but knew there was only one "t" in it. No other excuses.

Next, AC, while I'm sure your friend doesn't want to hear the old, "There are plenty of other fish in the sea" adage, but it's true. Also, given that she feels so strongly about her religion, it would probably just cause him more and more frustration in the future (assuming he isn't willing to convert to LDS). In that case, he needs to look at the long-term and give up on her. I mean, I'm sure she's a fine girl otherwise. The Mormons I've known were always some of the nicest people I've met, but relations between theists (especially those who are pretty strong in their particular faith) and non-believers are not easy. It can be done, it's just not the easiest and can lead to bigger problems down the road. IMHO, he should just tell her that even though he loves her, they can't be more than just good friends, unless one of them makes a major change of beliefs (which probably isn't going to happen). They'll both be happier (long-term) for it.