Confused pagan newcomer

[Mizumi]

Hello all! Wow, really risky posting this from Catholic school! ^_^;;

I'm somewhat agnostic, and since I've decided that I don't buy Christianity I've been looking into other religions, especially wicca and paganism. I have quite a few books on the subject, but I still have many questions.

My parents aren't very happy with the fact that I am looking into this as they are proudly Christian, and they will not supply any funding towards my exploration. :( So that rules out online stores for supplies, as I have no credit card. I can make some money myself over time, but as far as I know there are no "pagan supply stores" in Grand Forks, ND. ^_^;; So does anyone have some suggestions on how I might obtain supplies?

Also, is a magick circle and altar "required" to cast spells, or is it just extremely helpful?

Gotta go!

[variant 13]

Welcome,

say hi in the lounge forum when you get a chance.

Not sure about where to buy stuff but they might have info for you on the pagan federation, just goolge it.

Also, is a magick circle and altar "required" to cast spells, or is it just extremely helpful?

Would depend on the spell, though some think that it isn't necessary but is part of the whole ritual, and that it can help you focus on your goals.

Overall its easy to go back to basics, for a circle a bit of string will do, it just has to make a circle (all that mystic symbols stuff is just for the look of the thing). And an alter - a table that you keep clear for that purpose. (Though I'm no expert on the subject).

Hope it helps

[Karalora]

Your questions about spellcasting prompt me to ask you: are you interested in Wicca because its take on spirituality speaks to you, or because you like the idea of having "magical powers"? (Or both? Or neither?) Any Witch worth her (or his) blessed salt will tell you that the point of our religion is to worship the Goddess and to respect the Earth and all its creatures (including Homo sapiens), and that being able to work magic is just a nice side-effect.

Since you live with your parents you have to abide by their rules, and that may mean no magic or ritual--at least not under their roof. It doesn't make a very good impression on the religion when its practitioners are openly rebellious toward those who love them most. But they can't stop you from reading. Send me a PM listing the books you have, and I can make additional recommendations.

[seanie]

If you Fed-Ex me a cow I'll send you some magic beans.

[gsx1138]

Karalora is correct. If you are taking your knowledge of Wicca or Paganism in the hopes of having some "special" ability you'll be sorely disappointed. It is very important for you to keep a wary eye on those who would promise you some kind of 'secret' training also. Being a witch is nothing like what people think. It is hard work, much harder than Christianity, and is more in line with being aware of the natural world. That said, there are tons of different viewpoints on what one should do to be considered Pagan and in the end you'll have to decide that for yourself. The person that introduced me to Paganism told me to study every other religion first and I would encourage you to do the same.

I would also encourage you to study this site as well. It may end up helping you to decide that atheism is more in line with your way of thinking. I'm not trying to discourage you but the best way to know that it is right for you is to study everything else first (or at least look into it). Also, (I hate to bring this up) you're young. What seems important now may not be later. Wicca and Paganism suffers under the stigma of teenagers thinking it's "cool" because Christian parents ignorantly label it as "evil". If you're serious, then I'd say wait until you move out of the house before doing ritual or circles. You do Pagans a disservice by trying to usurp your parents rules.

[Doctor X]

Being a witch is nothing like what people think. It is hard work, much harder than Christianity, . . .

Now . . . now . . . you fail to consider how much work it takes to cut and gather all that wood . . . not to mention plant the stake. . . .

--J.D.

[Karalora]

Now . . . now . . . you fail to consider how much work it takes to cut and gather all that wood . . . not to mention plant the stake. . . .

Even harder than making the black candles out of human tallow and burning them upside-down in order to curse the village cow so that its milk goes sour, and then having to go without good milk until the village gets a new cow? These devil imps will only drink so much from my third nipple and that mole on my back before they demand some bovine calcium! And they're worse than cats when they're not fed what they like!

[Doctor X]

Tee Hee!

I do not know if you are familiar with Gahan Wilson, but his macabre cartoons inspired the likes of Gary Larson. One of my favorites is a "Salemesque" courtroom filled with various Puritans who are all large frogs. The "judge" addresses an old crone: "Very well, it is agreed. The Good People of Salem dismiss the charge of witchcraft against Goody Proctor provided Goody Proctor dismisses her curse against the Good People of Salem!"

Anyways, I have probably "hijacked" this enough!

--J.D.

[Infidelettante]

Hello all! Wow, really risky posting this from Catholic school! ^_^;;
I'm somewhat agnostic, and since I've decided that I don't buy Christianity I've been looking into other religions, especially wicca and paganism. I have quite a few books on the subject, but I still have many questions.

Hello Mizumi, welcome to IIDB and to Paganism. Asking questions is the very best way to learn if you are interested in following a pagan path. What you must understand early on is that such a path is not easy. It is however very rewarding.

My parents aren't very happy with the fact that I am looking into this as they are proudly Christian, and they will not supply any funding towards my exploration.

I don’t recommend that you hide things from your parents but, there is lot to be said for keeping quiet about your interests in Wicca and paganism. Most of us are rather secretive about what we do and believe unless we are sure those we reveal ourselves to can be trusted. The Internet is full of sites on Wicca and other forms of paganism. Take some time and learn about as many as you can before you limit yourself to one. Take advantage of the many message boards that cater to Pagans. A computer can be a Pagans best friend.

So that rules out online stores for supplies, as I have no credit card. I can make some money myself over time, but as far as I know there are no "pagan supply stores" in Grand Forks, ND. ^_^;; So does anyone have some suggestions on how I might obtain supplies?

Also, is a magick circle and altar "required" to cast spells, or is it just extremely helpful?

I have close to one hundred objects that I move in and out of my altar space. Although some are gifts from friends most are things from around the house. A few are ones I bought for a purpose. Very few are ‘witchy’ or obviously occult in nature.

The most important thing about having an altar is that you set aside an area that you think of as sacred and that you use it only for that purpose. It doesn’t need to be large ~mine is no more than three square feet~ it just needs to be meaningful.

My first altar was only three pieces, a small incense burner set in a stoneware bowl which set on a dish with a turned up edge. Each of those pieces held a deep meaning for me but no one would have ever known what they meant had I not told them. An altar doesn’t need to be showy, just meaningful. You can put together an altar for no money at all.

Objects can help you keep your mind focused on your intent. When you’re just beginning that can be a big help. You will find that some objects work for you and some don’t. Some objects will fall in love with you. Let them. Learn to find the symbol hidden in every object. Symbolism will come to be very important to you. You might want to make a study of the discovery, creation and manipulation of symbols. Open your intuition to them and let them will flow to you. They will.

But, you don’t need anything to practice your religion. Just you and the desire to create a purposeful, meaning filled spirituality. It will come to you. And promise yourself to have fun. If you want to become a successful Pagan you need to learn how important it is to be silly. You must grow into your spirituality and if you take it all too seriously you will give up before you find a path that suits you.

One more thing. Don’t search for truth. Search for what works and truth will be there.

Come back and see us. We need more Pagans 'round here.:D

JT

[Infidelettante]

Originally posted by seanie
If you Fed-Ex me a cow I'll send you some magic beans.

Ha :p , you can have my magic beans for a couple of NY Strips.

JT

[Mizumi]

My parents aren't very happy with the fact that I am looking into this as they are proudly Christian, and they will not supply any funding towards my exploration.

It is by no means against the rules, they just aren't very happy with it. My parents are actually pretty understanding, they just think that paganism/wicca really are just silly and airy-fairy and make no sense. (namely my dad :mad: )

The books I've gotten are:

Wicca : A guide for the solitary practicioner by Scott Cunningham
To Ride a Silver Broomstick by Silver RavenWolf
Teen Witch by Silver RavenWolf
And also the Teen Witch Kit to go along with the book

Your questions about spellcasting prompt me to ask you: are you interested in Wicca because its take on spirituality speaks to you, or because you like the idea of having "magical powers"? (Or both? Or neither?) Any Witch worth her (or his) blessed salt will tell you that the point of our religion is to worship the Goddess and to respect the Earth and all its creatures (including Homo sapiens), and that being able to work magic is just a nice side-effect.

If you are taking your knowledge of Wicca or Paganism in the hopes of having some "special" ability you'll be sorely disappointed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wicca and Paganism suffers under the stigma of teenagers thinking it's "cool" because Christian parents ignorantly label it as "evil".

I am well aware of such things, and realize that it is not "evil". My parents realize that too. My mom's best friends for many years (until we moved) was a proud Wiccan.

And I know what Wicca is truly about. Who do you take me for? ;) I have done my research.:D Yes, it's take on spirituality seems quite like what I have been looking for. But I do also like the idea of having some sort of "power" of my own. I mean it different than it probably sounds, but I can't use inflection in my text. It's just that for a very long time I have suffered from extremely low self-esteem, and the idea that I can actually influence my life magically does appeal to me. It's just that Christianity seems to be all about "God is great and we are worthless, we must fear him and be his slaves until we die or we will go to hell."

And again, if I could have a lengthy conversation and use inflection you might get more where I'm coming from. But please realize, no matter how you have taken what I've said, that I am serious, and that nature and the Goddess call to me. :)

[gsx1138]

If what you say is correct then I'm happy for you. :) It is good that you're parents understand that it is not "evil". Their choice is different than yours however so expect some critisism. In fact, I wouldn't go announcing your Wiccan/Pagan around people you don't know. Your dads opinion of Wicca is my opinion of Christianity (funny how that works).

they just think that paganism/wicca really are just silly and airy-fairy and make no sense.

I see they haven't actually read the Bible. ;) Personally I wouldn't put too much into Ravenwolf (Silver Broomstick isn't too bad though). Cunninghams book is the most popular for beginners and the first book on Wicca that I ever bought. I don't know if your male or female (I may have missed it). If you're male then I recommend Wiccan Warrior by Cuhulain.

One thing you'll find is that unlike Christianity you must rely more on yourself than God. Also, realize that everyone has a different opinion of what a Pagan is so my own bias is likely coming through in my posts. If this is what calls to you and it makes you a better person then go for it.

[Mizumi]

Thanks gsx. I will go see if they have Wiccan Warrior at Waldenbooks. I was amazed how many books on alternative religions they had there!

P.S. Yes, I am male, but I'm rather effeminate so I sometimes mislead people.

[Karalora]

It is by no means against the rules, they just aren't very happy with it. My parents are actually pretty understanding, they just think that paganism/wicca really are just silly and airy-fairy and make no sense. (namely my dad )

In that case, the best thing you can do is show by example that it's not as frivolous as they think. If they're open to it, have some discussions--ask your dad what, specifically, he thinks is nonsensical about it.

Wicca : A guide for the solitary practicioner by Scott Cunningham
To Ride a Silver Broomstick by Silver RavenWolf
Teen Witch by Silver RavenWolf
And also the Teen Witch Kit to go along with the book

Good start, although I agree with gsx1138 that RavenWolf isn't the best authority anymore--she's fallen victim to the celebrity bug and doesn't "feel" as sincere in her later works as she did in Silver Broomstick. But whatever faults it has, Teen Witch contains top-notch tips for practicing on a shoestring budget and with limited resources. I bought it for those reasons even though I wasn't a teen anymore when it came out.

I would also recommend The Spiral Dance by Starhawk and especially Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Adler. If you like Cunningham, you should probably get The Truth About Witchcraft Today, which is very inexpensive and is as much an "about" book as a "how-to" book--invite your parents to read it!

And I know what Wicca is truly about. Who do you take me for?

I take you for a young person who has just recently discovered the Old Religion. Unfortunately for the sincere ones like you, there are an awful lot of kids who latch onto the glamor and "power" associated with Wicca, and our experience with them makes us cautious.

But I do also like the idea of having some sort of "power" of my own. I mean it different than it probably sounds, but I can't use inflection in my text. It's just that for a very long time I have suffered from extremely low self-esteem, and the idea that I can actually influence my life magically does appeal to me.

I think you'll find that just knowing that you know how to work magic, and understanding the ethical implications of that knowledge, will boost your self-esteem. It certainly helped me. The most effective "spells" are the ones you cast on yourself! And if anyone tells you, "That's not magic, that's just psychology/self-hypnosis," you can come back with, "Well, what do you think magic is?"

It's just that Christianity seems to be all about "God is great and we are worthless, we must fear him and be his slaves until we die or we will go to hell."

Time for another book recommendation! Pagans and Christians by Dr. Gus diZerega is one of the best books on comparative religion I have ever read. Get it, read it, and encourage your parents to read it too. It will help you understand each other. (The understanding has to be on your part as well as theirs--but you probably already knew that!)

Books aren't expensive, but they do add up fast. I don't know how good the library system is in North Forks (lucky me, I live in Los Angeles), but see what you can find there if you can't afford to buy everything you want.

P.S. Yes, I am male, but I'm rather effeminate so I sometimes mislead people.

I must admit that I assumed you were a girl. Sorry! Not only do way more young women than young men become attracted to Wicca and Paganism (must be all that Goddess-centered spirituality), but I think the name Mizumi is feminine. I think. Don't quote me on that.

[brighid]

Mizumi,

You need not purchase anything special from an on-line or other store in order to create an altar. Simply pick items that speak to you for what you already possess and can be found in your natural surroundings. You likely have incense, candles, perhaps even a nice piece of fabric, or beautiful old scarf ... all you need is what Nature has provided. In fact you don't even need an altar because Nature is your altar.

In a Catholic household you should have little trouble displaying such things as it is pretty common to see altars to Mary. If you require some sort of physical symbol to embody one of the many Goddesses you can find beautiful pictures all over the web, in mythology books, and in other art (John Waterhouse, Dante Gabrielle Rosetti and other pre-raphaelite artists have many beautiful pieces of art. Check out http://www.artmagick.com)

Here are some other sites you can check out for information about paganism:

http://www.paganlibrary.com (although I don't like their search engine, it has some very good information.)

http://fullmoonherbs.com

http://www.witchvox.com

At witchvox you can see if there is a local pagan meetup in you area or somewhere near by.

As you are young, and perhaps impressionable be careful of people desiring to prey on the vulnerabilities of a newbie. Don't allow yourself to be sucked into any group that "love bombs" you (as is often a technique of many cult organizations), or force you into doing anything you may be uncomfortable with - performing skyclad (naked), engaging in sex magick (or witnessing it), or any group that demands you only read certain literature, think certain things, etc. Paganism is about independent creative worship, as long as it harms none. Restricting thoughts, movement, coercing members into things they are uncomfortable with etc. directly violates the very spirit of Goddess worship. Avoid those people at all costs.

Brighid

[Mizumi]

Thanks Brighid! Just a note, my parents aren't Catholic they're episcopalian but that's like the closest thing to being Catholic there is anyway. :p

[brighid]

Mizumi,

Sorry, don't know why I thought Catholic ... but yes, Episcopalian isn't much different.

I hope your journey of discovery is fruitful.

Blessed Be,
Brighid

[Kassiana]

You don't need expensive items. Why not just draw things you like on paper? Get a few things from a craft supply store...my first pentacle I made from a wooden circle, some paint, and a string of hemp. Candles are available everywhere, as are autumn leaves, fallen branches (for wands), etc.

It's the great thing about being a nature religion...your altar can be your backyard...

[premjan]

Is sexual promiscuity automatically a part of Wicca?

[brighid]

Is sexual promiscuity automatically a part of Wicca?

I hope my statements about sexual magick did not give you such an idea. I would state emphatically that sexual 'promiscuity" is not, in any way, shape or form an automatic part of Wicca.

Engaging in sexual magick (either with one's life partner, or in a ritual setting) is and should always be a personal and consensual choice between adults. I simply know of some groups, who use religion (Judeo-Christian, neo-pagan, etc.) that use very real cult indoctrination techniques, such as forced or coerced sexual contact. However, this is not "typical" in any Wiccan coven and it directly violates "An ye harm none, do as ye wilst." Therefore, any group that would suggest one MUST engage in activities either skyclad or orgiastic are to be avoided at all costs, and the same is for any group regardless of their creed.

Neo-paganism (and Wicca as a branch of it) tends to be sexually open. There is no shame in homosexuality, bisexuality, etc. It is seen as natural (as there are examples of such in nature.) Pleasure is not shunned as some evil, demonic force, but rather as a gift of the Goddess to be shared with all people (and pleasure not simply being sexual.)

There is also no shame in nakedness, as the body is seen as beautiful and divine in it's natural state. Self-acceptance of "imperfect" form is important, as it is harm to self and to others to have impossible and unhealthy body image ideals (such as can be found on the cover of all major fashion magazines.)

My group is largely a bunch of very monogamous, married women. We do not perform ritual skyclad, nor do we engage in sexual magick, except with our husbands. We take our commitments to our marriages very seriously and to violate that trust would be a violation of not only those promises, but of "an ye harm none."

I can't even say that I personally know of a Wiccan or witch that is "promiscuous." Certainly they exists, just as there are Catholic school girls who aren't impressed with the Christian ideal of virginity and chastity for females. However, if a neo-pagan wished to remain chaste and a virgin until he/she met his/her life partner this would be perfectly acceptable.

Sex is not dirty, filthy or evil. It is natural, beautiful and procreative (not just for human life, but for love, affection, etc.) We do not dishonor such a wonderful gift by shoving it into some forbidden closet, feeling guilt over being sexual beings, or chosing to live a life enjoying sexual contact with other human beings (whether that be in the sanctity of one's marriage, in the consentual act of a group, or alone through self-pleasure.)

Brighid

[Karalora]

Originally posted by premjan
Is sexual promiscuity automatically a part of Wicca?

Personal responsibility is automatically a part of Wicca. Self-determination is automatically a part of Wicca. Respect for oneself and others is automatically a part of Wicca. If someone is able to express these qualities in conjunction with a promiscuous lifestyle, more power to them. I find it too fine a line to walk.

[Kassiana]

Originally posted by premjan
Is sexual promiscuity automatically a part of Wicca?
Nope. That's more a fundie "I wish it were that way" fantasy than a reality. The only thing I've found more common to Pagans in general is that they're more willing to talk about sex and flirt openly, but it's usually all talk and no action.

[Phineas Flapdoodle]

Originally posted by Karalora
... will tell you that the point of our religion is to worship the Goddess and to respect the Earth and all its creatures (including Homo sapiens), .... So Karalora, you folks are the Green Party! I get it now, and Nader is (was) the head warlock!

BTW - honestly, I had just posted (fyi - reading in this forum for very first time) a question asking what Paganism is, in another current thread here; really don't know what it's about, more than what you've briefly described here (quoted).

Sorry for the joke (yes, I am sincere) - you've probably heard that joke before, eh?

very best,
Stephen

[Karalora]

Er, yes...I have heard that joke before. To be honest, the Green Party is more-or-less in harmony with most Pagan ideals...but they seriously need to get their shit together if they want to make a difference.

(Just FYI--male Witches/Wiccans are not called "warlocks". They are called Witches or Wiccans. Some traditions use specialized terms such as Druid, Shaman, or Wizard...although I find that last a little too Dungeons & Dragons-ish...not to mention terribly pretentious!)

BTW - honestly, I had just posted (fyi - reading in this forum for very first time) a question asking what Paganism is, in another current thread here; really don't know what it's about, more than what you've briefly described here (quoted).

Ask any 10 Pagans that question, and you'll get at least 15 different answers. There's a lot of room for personal interpretation; I can only speak for myself.

Anyone who wants to learn more about the many different faces of the Pagan movement in the Western world should read Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Adler.

[Phineas Flapdoodle]

Originally posted by Karalora
Er, yes...I have heard that joke before. To be honest, the Green Party is more-or-less in harmony with most Pagan ideals...but they seriously need to get their shit together if they want to make a difference. The Greens or the Pagans need to get their shit together? ah - sorry, another joke. Seriously though, in what general way(s)s does the Green party need to make changes? again, I'm serious when I ask - not a trick question and I'm not baiting you for your answer. Since it's off topic of this thread, I wouldn't mind at all if you sent a PM - private message.

and thanks for your post, Karalora!
very best,
Stephen

[Waning Moon Conrad]

Originally posted by Mizumi
Hello all! Wow, really risky posting this from Catholic school! ^_^;;

I'm somewhat agnostic, and since I've decided that I don't buy Christianity I've been looking into other religions, especially wicca and paganism. I have quite a few books on the subject, but I still have many questions.

My parents aren't very happy with the fact that I am looking into this as they are proudly Christian, and they will not supply any funding towards my exploration. :( So that rules out online stores for supplies, as I have no credit card. I can make some money myself over time, but as far as I know there are no "pagan supply stores" in Grand Forks, ND. ^_^;; So does anyone have some suggestions on how I might obtain supplies?

Also, is a magick circle and altar "required" to cast spells, or is it just extremely helpful?

Gotta go!

Do some homework regarding the origins of Wicca.

You'll find that it's an ancient Celtic religion that dates back to about the 1920's. That's right, the 1920's!

Gerald Gardner whose ego was as big as Aleister Crowley's had to leave Crowley's order (the Ordo Templi Orientis) because it wasn't big enough to accomodate both of their egos.

He wanted to start something of his own so he pretended to take seriously, a book called "The Witch Cult in Western Europe" by one Margaret Murray which alleged that the so-called witches who were burned during the middle ages and renaissance were actually druidic priestesses and that the original Celtic pagan religion had somehow survived in an unbroken lineage among the illiterate peasants.

If you've ever played Chinese Whispers with even the shortest and simplest of messages, you'll realize that no oral tradition can ever survive in an undistorted form without written back up.

Although there is no shortage of Wiccans who anoint themselves as high-priests or high-priestesses after reading one or two cheap paperbacks by people with spectacular names such as Lord Silver Backed Unicorn or Lady Bunny Pie and breathlessly rant on about "the burning times" ...... (what is it about being a victim that so many adolescents love?) .......
you will probably find that a lot of the people burned at the stake were burned for or because of Protestantism, Popery or Catharism.

Of those that were allegedly witches, many would have been schizophrenics or manic-depressives in a manic phase with delusions of grandeur, pressure of speech, flight of ideas, elevated mood etc and a vast amount of accusations of witchery would also have come from spite or jealousy. Of course there were people who dabbled in the occult and were found out and burned as well.

Don't just grab any old book by some wanker fluff bunny with a grandiose name and assume that it's an actual introduction to a valid and viable spiritual tradition. Do some homework. Find out something about the background and history of what you're getting into.

And believe me, so called "High Magick" which doesn't bother with puny "spells" but is much "grander" and so much more "intellectually challenging" and is so classy that it does "rituals" is also filled with people who read a few books by Crowley, do the Star Ruby ritual a couple of times and give themselves titles such as "Grand Supreme and Holy Imperial Arch-Hierophant of the Rose Cross and Pastos" and crap on about sorts of nonsense.

[premjan]

I think the hindu vedas survived in purely oral tradition (as recitative poetry).

[Demosthenes]

I don't think it's entirely accurate that oral traditions are highly vulnerable to distortion, drift can occur especially over spans of centuries. Written forms aren't immune either to distortions. It's noted that in cultures with strong oral traditions such as Native Americans, Australian Aboriginals, African tribes, Arabic nomadic tribes, and Indian cultures their stories have shown remarkable consistency and stability across centuries and tribes. Up to a century ago it was common to memorize Homer's epic poetry, almost the entire Bible, and other large tracts of literature by heart. So I feel that the parlor game of Telephone or Chinese Whipser serve mainly to illuminate the differences in how our culture place its emphasize on cultural traditions and their passage to future generations rather than the actual transmission methods themselves.

[liquid]

Waning Moon Conrad,

I'd like to pitch up in support of your post in case you get flamed at all! I know that in many ways pagans and secularists share things in common, but I was a bit disappointed that no-one had popped up with a dose of reality before you did.

Maybe I spend too much time in Sci/Skep and E/C, but I don't have a lot of time for Wicca (let alone any other 'new age' beliefs) and I'm sometimes a bit disappointed when someone steps out of conventional religion only to seek some trendy fuzzy spirituality.

Incidentally, your name sounds like an author of one of those witchcraft books!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Mizumi, perhaps you should have a go at not having any religion and just living your life. You don't have to choose one you know.

Having said that, I do find Wiccans to be nicer and more balanced than fundies, so if you were to choose anything I guess you could do worse.

(I have to say that in case I get a spell cast on me ;))

[Karalora]

(I have to say that in case I get a spell cast on me )

I know you're kidding, but other people who peruse this thread might not, so I have to say this:

We don't "cast spells on" people without their permission--even if the spell is a beneficial one, it is considered manipulative and is a violation of the "harm none" ethic. To make an analogy, I wouldn't mow someone's lawn, do his grocery shopping, or set his broken arm without his permission either--would you? I might think I was doing him a favor, but he might have other ideas.

Come to think of it, this rule is probably why we seem more "balanced" than fundies...after all, they think they're doing us a favor when they witness to us.

[Leah]

Originally posted by Mizumi
So does anyone have some suggestions on how I might obtain supplies?
In nature itself. That's what paganism is all about. The greatest supply of all is balance within and without, with yourself, nature and others.
There are shops here for things, but I find the best resorces for things are usually antique markets, auctions and second-hand markets.
Originally posted by Mizumi
Also, is a magick circle and altar "required" to cast spells, or is it just extremely helpful?
It depends on what you're planning to do. An 'altar' comes naturally with time, simply because one wants things neat and gathers them somewhere. And suddenly this chest looks like an altar.
I would be careful with calling spirits within a circle, especially when there is no moon, after all, just imagine there were good and bad spirits after all, you might call the wrong ones.

This is by the way not the perfect place to find pagans, magicians, wicca. There are a few fora in the web where you might be more lucky.

http://forums.timerift.net/
http://www.witchvox.com/xlinks.html
http://newwitch.com/
http://www.paganet.org/pnn/2003/beltane/default.html
http://www.mysticwicks.com

Oh, and welcome :)

[Harumi]

Wow.

That's all I can say.

Wow.

Are you people serious? Magic? Spells? Rituals?

Forgive me if I sound skeptical, but I was taught from the time I was little that magic is fairytale make believe.

Please tell me how magic works and provide examples of when it has.

[Karalora]

Originally posted by Harumi
Forgive me if I sound skeptical, but I was taught from the time I was little that magic is fairytale make believe.

Please tell me how magic works and provide examples of when it has.

First of all, forget everything you have learned from the movies and the fairy tales and the D&D games. There are no fireballs, no potions to make someone fall in love with the first person whose eyes they meet, no enemies turned into toads, no flying on broomsticks, and no devil imps summoned from the Netherworld to do our bidding.

I'll give you my favorite personal example: I was in need of some quick cash, so I lit a green candle and concentrated on getting money. The very next day, I went for a walk and found $46 dollars lying naked on the sidewalk. That's the most dramatic result I have ever gotten from a spell, and to be honest it could have happened anyway without the candle. But I like to think that it wouldn't have happened.

The idea behind magic is that the Universe is full of diverse possibilities, and any one of a squintillion tiny factors can tip the balance...so we try to give the right factors the right nudges to tip the balance in a particular direction. It's very subtle. I personally feel that the vast majority of changes made through magic are mental or psychological--a scenario in which the above spell brought me money by making me more alert to the money when it was there to find. I often wonder how many $20 bills I pass up because I never notice them!

If you want to protest "But that's not magic, that's psychology!" then the only difference we have is terminological. Call it whatever you want; it works. Candles and herbs and gemstones--the traditional trappings of witchcraft--are more fun for me than the less mystified methods of self-help such as affirmations, so they work better for me in focusing my mind on the results I need.

Some aspects of magic have been figured out by science--medicinal herbs and hypnotism being prime examples. But that doesn't mean that they are no longer "magical" in their effects. (It's all one to me whether my headache is relieved by the spirit of the willow tree or by a chemical reaction between salicin and my pain receptors--just so long as it is relieved!) What it does mean is that you shouldn't dismiss magical practices as "nonsense" just because they haven't been validated by science...yet!

[Harumi]

*shrug*

I know that wiccans won't use their magic to harm me, so I'm not going to be against it.

I've just read up a couple things on the occult, and deliberate out of body experiences: something about people in the military trained to find answers by moving their awareness somewhere else or something, I don't know.

As I've never seen anything done that I couldn't dismiss as "coincidence" or "pure dumb luck", I'm going to back off from the idea that magic exists.

Also, don't you think that the idea of burning a green candle to get money is kind of like a Christian praying to get money and then finding it?

Seems like they both "work" insofar that the person wants and believes it to "work".

Sorry if this sounds confrontational, I'm just asking questions.

[Leah]

Originally posted by Harumi
Also, don't you think that the idea of burning a green candle to get money is kind of like a Christian praying to get money and then finding it?
If it was just the candle, perhaps.
But as far as I understand any ritual starts with creating balance with your surrounding, then pysical clensing (salt bath), inner balance, the elimination of all disturbances of modern society,
and only then does one begin with focussing on the actual target and how to achieve it.
The burning of an apropriate candle, or the calling of an apopriate spirit, the burning of an apropriate steaming, ...these are all just symbols for your aim and your focus on such.

And since you spent all evening focussing on this target, your mind will still be subconsciously be active over the matter during the night and the following day, ... alas, you will be more inquisative and alert to opportunities of making some additional money, then you might have been without the ceremony.

(...just my thought on the matter, I might well be wrong, and it might be the doing of the candle ...)

[Kassiana]

I'm going to back off from the idea that magic exists.
--Go ahead. If you find this unbelievable, don't believe it. Heck, if you have to believe in something, don't choose Paganism or magic. Go with one of the mainstream religions instead.

Disbelieve everything I believe in. It doesn't bother me one bit.

[Leah]

Originally posted by Kassiana
I'm going to back off from the idea that magic exists.
--Go ahead. If you find this unbelievable, don't believe it. Heck, if you have to believe in something, don't choose Paganism or magic. Go with one of the mainstream religions instead.

Disbelieve everything I believe in. It doesn't bother me one bit.
In case your post was in reference to my reply,

I do actually do these things myself and believe in them. I am just simply a critic and try to analyse what one actually does there and how it can by all logic work. We are part of the whole and so we are part of any ritual, the truth is within us, the rituals help though to reveal the truth.

Example: Apparently there is a sing and a ritual needed to make proper fry bread (Native Americans).
I then wonder if it has to do with the fact that soda bicarbonate and cream of tartar did not exist in those days, the secret might have been in the permanent kneating of the doe in combination with the heat, and perhaps the sweat of the hands, that let the bread rise better.
Or simply it was to focus on the importance of the gift of bread.

There are often many answers to a question, just like one answer can often raise many questions.


:)

[Karalora]

Originally posted by Leah
(...just my thought on the matter, I might well be wrong, and it might be the doing of the candle ...)

No, I made a full ritual out of it. I just didn't feel the need to describe the entire ritual in my story. Actually, I even made the candle specifically for the purpose and mixed powdered cinnamon and cloves with the wax. I was damn focused!

[Leah]

Originally posted by Karalora
No, I made a full ritual out of it. I just didn't feel the need to describe the entire ritual in my story. Actually, I even made the candle specifically for the purpose and mixed powdered cinnamon and cloves with the wax. I was damn focused!
I suppose I'm not a believer then.
Last year I needed 26.000 Euro to pay additonal taxes.
And trust me , I was damn focused.
Spent some hours thinking, scraped my accounts, sold some things on e-bay, had the money within two weeks.
And just before I had to pay it, I went through their figgures again, since I was convinced it should be only half that.
In the end there was a mistake with DM and Euro and I only had to pay half.

But I would have never trusted the matter upon any ritual.

Edit: vocabluary

[Kassiana]

In case your post was in reference to my reply,
--Nope. I replied to Harumi, who said s/he was going to disbelieve in magic. Unless you said it, I wasn't talking to you. :)

[Karalora]

Leah, at the time I was not working, had no investments or valuable possessions, and didn't know anyone who could lend me money. Pretty much the only way I could come by some was luck--which is exactly what the spell was designed to influence.

[Harumi]

Originally posted by Kassiana
I'm going to back off from the idea that magic exists.
--Go ahead. If you find this unbelievable, don't believe it. Heck, if you have to believe in something, don't choose Paganism or magic. Go with one of the mainstream religions instead.

Disbelieve everything I believe in. It doesn't bother me one bit.

*pish*

The only thing that I truly believe in is myself. Only I can change things around me, and only I can take the initiative to make the changes in my life. No magic, ritual, spell, prayer, or belief is going to do that for me.

And it kinda sounds like you were bothered that I don't believe from your post, but that could be because of things being lost when written.

[orac]

Originally posted by Harumi
Are you people serious? Magic? Spells? Rituals?
They're serious. I wouldn't take them too seriously, though. :)

Originally posted by Harumi
Please tell me how magic works and provide examples of when it has.
Magic "works" when you want to cure a cold within 7 days and scientists can do nothing but tell you to wait a week and promise you'll probably feel better. It's a bit less effective with amputated limbs though, so even if you can cure colds whenever you want you should still be careful around heavy machinery.

Magic "works" when you want a new girlfriend, although that could have a lot more to do with increased self confidence and hanging out with girls who don't go in for critical thinking (or at least who'll be really impressed that you're being all sensitive and saying that there's a goddess in charge) - after all, many wiccans insist that they don't go in for mind control and they'ld ask a person before doing a spell that affects them in any way, even if it was to give them the great benefit of being stuck with someone who needs magic in order to attract a girlfriend.

Despite what some people say, I've been told that magic is an effective tool for injuring ex boyfriends, although if she was right I ought to be dead by now so there's probably nothing to worry about.

Apparantly magic is great at reducing tax debts, finding money, getting a better job, and it makes a good job because you can get either fees or "voluntary love offerings" from people when you use your magic to help them but it's no good at winning lotto because you're not "supposed" to use it for personal gain. Randi has determined that magic is great for helping people forget that they looked in a box 30 seconds before they tell him what's in the box, and his refusal to acknowledge this awesome power may be why no more psychics wiccans or other such people want to claim his money. I wish I could get a definitive answer as to what magical financial gain is acceptable though - if it's ok to use magic to get money then psychics should be richer, and if it can't then some people need to explain why they use magic to control their local tax department. I expect to get this answer 5 minutes after a christian explains why Jesus told people to sell all their stuff and give the money to the poor while meaning that people should accumulate as much personal wealth as they can.

Here's a slightly more serious one: if you take specially prepared plant matter (oddly enough mold is a good example) then you can create a magical potion that will cure many assorted illnesses, and this has saved countless lives. Er, hold on, wait a minute. That's science I'm thinking of. Sorry. When it works, it's called medicine, the rest of the time it's a magic potion. It's quite sad, but actually trying to find out why a particular way of preparing a plant can save lives is a relatively new idea. The result is that some people think "it's old and uses herbs, it must be magic and it must work" while others think "it's old and uses herbs - does it actually work?" and then try to find out what actually makes it work. It's actually an important point for many other styles of magic - something that used to be explained by saying "it's magic, just be grateful it works" has been accepted as valid simply because it really does work. After things are shown to work, they can be understood. If some other form of magic can also be shown to work (even if the mechanism isn't currently understood) then it too will be likely to become a regular part of people's lives. Curiously, though, many wiccans are completely unaware of this.

But no fireballs. Nope, there's no way magic can do anything that can't be explained by science, but magic is real anyway.

I guess it's just as well at least some of them aren't upset when they aren't believed. :)

[NiceWookie]

Originally posted by orac

I guess it's just as well at least some of them aren't upset when they aren't believed. :)

That would be a waste of emotions. I would rather try to teach a rock how to swim than try and convince someone that magic 'works' or is 'real', especially when they are dead set not to believe it.

It is far easier for me just to have a 'to each their own' attitude.

[brighid]

The only thing that I truly believe in is myself. Only I can change things around me, and only I can take the initiative to make the changes in my life. No magic, ritual, spell, prayer, or belief is going to do that for me.

Then you have discovered the essence of "magick." You are the magick. Spells, prayer, ritual etc. are simply a mechanism to ignite a mental desire into physical action. Nothing more and nothing less. It's like meditation and visualization (and these are important aspects of it all.) It is about connecting the mind and body to create the necessary changes one requires to make in order to achieve a goal.

There are no Goddesses, Gods, spirits, etc. in the sense that temporal beings of this nature exist. We all know that, but the tales of these beings hold powerful archetypes and one can "call upon" certain aspects of those "deities" in order to awaken that aspect in ones self. Think of it as inspiration.

What inspires you? How do you summon courage, strength, etc?

The only effect one can have on the natural world is the effect on can create from within. One must look within to find the answers as to why your life isn't doing as well as you liked, or why do you fail to achieve a goal you had set. Then one must accept responsibility for where one is in life and reflect upon how one can change. AND then take the necessary action TO change.

There is no "magick" except what you create. Think of it in any way you like. You may not need ritual, but some find enrichment and motivation in it. It harms none, and ritual can be a very positive experience. One need not believe in Gods.

You probably have your own "rituals" that you may not even realize.

Brighid

[Harumi]

Originally posted by NiceWookie
That would be a waste of emotions. I would rather try to teach a rock how to swim than try and convince someone that magic 'works' or is 'real', especially when they are dead set not to believe it.

It is far easier for me just to have a 'to each their own' attitude.

That would be a waste of emotions. I would rather try to teach a rock how to swim than try and convince someone that Jesus died for him and that faith 'works' or is 'real', especially when they are dead set not to believe it.

Hmmmm...this sounds rather familiar doesn't it?

[Harumi]

Originally posted by brighid
Then you have discovered the essence of "magick." You are the magick. Spells, prayer, ritual etc. are simply a mechanism to ignite a mental desire into physical action. Nothing more and nothing less. It's like meditation and visualization (and these are important aspects of it all.) It is about connecting the mind and body to create the necessary changes one requires to make in order to achieve a goal.

There are no Goddesses, Gods, spirits, etc. in the sense that temporal beings of this nature exist. We all know that, but the tales of these beings hold powerful archetypes and one can "call upon" certain aspects of those "deities" in order to awaken that aspect in ones self. Think of it as inspiration.

What inspires you? How do you summon courage, strength, etc?

The only effect one can have on the natural world is the effect on can create from within. One must look within to find the answers as to why your life isn't doing as well as you liked, or why do you fail to achieve a goal you had set. Then one must accept responsibility for where one is in life and reflect upon how one can change. AND then take the necessary action TO change.

There is no "magick" except what you create. Think of it in any way you like. You may not need ritual, but some find enrichment and motivation in it. It harms none, and ritual can be a very positive experience. One need not believe in Gods.

You probably have your own "rituals" that you may not even realize.

Brighid

It seems then, that 'magick' only exists insofar that you people call it magick, while I call it my own actions.

Can't see why people can't just skip the magic part and just admit that the only thing they need to change things is themselves.

I don't consider meditation magic, but rather a way to focus, which does work, even though I can't do it. I suppose that's how I feel about rituals too.

You call it magic, I call it focus. Different name, same thing. No need to fight. :)

[brighid]

You call it potato, I call it potatoe :)

Why must they give up calling it magick, if by understanding the essence of magick/change/focus is found internally? Because it would make atheists (which I am), agnostics and other theists more comfortable or less confused?

I don't consider meditation "magick" either, or "magick" meditation. They are both vehicles to intune the body with the mind inorder to sync desires and create necessary action in the world.

And yes, there is no need to fight. Respect the ways of others who cause no harm, and let each person define their own path. You call it focus, some call it "magick." If it's all the same, it should cause no consternation.

Brighid

[Karalora]

I call it magic 'cause it's just cooler that way!;)

[NiceWookie]

Originally posted by Harumi
That would be a waste of emotions. I would rather try to teach a rock how to swim than try and convince someone that Jesus died for him and that faith 'works' or is 'real', especially when they are dead set not to believe it.

Hmmmm...this sounds rather familiar doesn't it?

LOL... On top of a seriously apples to oranges comparison, you left out "I would rather just have a "to each their own" attitude." ;)

[Harumi]

Please explain why it is apples and oranges.

I see no reason to view the magic you believe any different than I would with blind faith. I'm sure that Christians claim that if we just believed what they believed, we would feel God too.

Just like you claim that if we were to accept the idea that magic was real, we would see it.

Interesting, isn't it? ;)

[NiceWookie]

Originally posted by Harumi
Please explain why it is apples and oranges.

I see no reason to view the magic you believe any different than I would with blind faith. I'm sure that Christians claim that if we just believed what they believed, we would feel God too.

Just like you claim that if we were to accept the idea that magic was real, we would see it.

Interesting, isn't it? ;)


Hmmm, I haven't clarified or defined the magic 'I believe' and I haven't claimed that merely accepting that magic is real makes it "seeable".

What I have done is say that it would be (IMO) futile to try to convince someone that magic is real and that it would be a waste of emeotion to get upset becasue someone doesn't beleive in magic. If someone truly believes they have no control over their life, I cannot leap into their minds and change that, nor do I want too.

Magic, as far as I define it, is art of molding thought and emotion towards desirable results. It is a statement of personal involvement and participation in life. Also known as the power of thinking positively, the importance of having and being focused on achieving goals, and all sorts of other potentail psuedo-psyco-babble that many books are written about and I wont go into here.

Have you ever written a goal down, worked to acheive it and eventually have the goal fufiled? Then you have done magic in my opinion.

It is a total personal affair. You dont recieve "get into heaven" points for "converting" anyone to do it and it has nothing to do with beleif in a personal or impersonal diety though it could be philosophied that magic works according to natural principles like cause and effect,ect. Another personal affair.

Now I have defined magic from my perspective, you may go to town with the critisms and nit-picking. First please explain what all this has to do with prothlytizing, jesus, blind faith or christianity and I will accept the comparison was not apples and oranges.

[orac]

Originally posted by NiceWookie
Magic, as far as I define it, is art of molding thought and emotion towards desirable results.
[...]
Have you ever written a goal down, worked to acheive it and eventually have the goal fufiled? Then you have done magic in my opinion
Well, at least now it should be clear just why there's any disagreement at all:

If you arbitrarily define words to mean whatever suits you at the time, meaningful communication becomes really difficult.

Your definition of magic has nothing to do with supernatural or mystical powers, deities, or anything else that isn't quite happily accepted by scientists and skeptics all over the world.

Um. The only problem is that the world is just full of pagans, wiccans and assorted witches and wizards who actually use a more commonly accepted definition which does include ideas such as "magic can be used to throw fireballs or to control the minds of tax department workers." If you read back over this thread you'll see many people claiming that mystical energy fields can cause damage (either to another person or to a person who misueses them) and that magical powers have the ability to affect the physical universe in ways designed to benefit the person using magic. (Ok, ok, so a few have backpeddled quite quickly and turned 'I made the universe do what I want' into 'I meditated and relaxed and was in a better state of mind to do something to help myself' or 'I filled in time until something else happened'.)

Actually, on second thoughts, I find it quite easy to believe that some people don't understand why this could possibly cause any confusion, and I'm pretty sure that some people actually like causing that confusion.


I'm not saying that writing down a goal and working to achieve it is a bad idea. I'm just now saying that I simply can't understand why anyone would choose to use the word "magic" to describe that. I'm not saying you're an evil person and I'm not saying that you should stop using the word "magic" just to make me comfortable.

I am saying that I simply don't understand the desperate attachment to the word "magic."

Well, ok, I also don't understand why people are so surprised that they say "I'm doing magic" and people don't realise they're just doing positive thinking exercises. Don't you people have dictionaries? :)

[NiceWookie]

Having a to each their own attitude means I basically don't care what other people are inclined to believe. Though I fear expirience is gradually teaching me to look down my nose on people who do 'care' what other people beleive. Disecting that kind of 'egotism' is suitable for a whole other topic me-thinks.

anyway,

I have done nothing to change a general definition of magic as it is held by many pagans, and Witches. IRRC it was put by an occult author (Crowley iirc) as something like "the manifestation of reality in accordance with will" I simply have 'thought and emotion" as my 'unseen forces' of choice behind magic rather than will, deity, or mystical forces.

I'm a Witch BTW. ;)

[Harumi]

I can say nothing other than the fact that such a thing is not magic in my opinion, and your belief that it is only feels to me like wishful thinking.

Unless you feel there was something 'magical' about acheiving a goal...well...all I can say is, "Wow."

I've done research on Wicca, and the occult, and many people do believe in traveling through dimensions, and even suggest schools and classes of how to do this.

Seems to me like your definition of magic is very different from what I've read. *shrug*

[premjan]

thing is, most of us (especially in the US) are brought up with a mythology of personal agency and effectiveness that is mostly just hogwash. I mean the teaching that everything that you are and become is within your conscious control and that if you are a loser then there is noone to blame but you: neither is it true, not is it productive to think so. Magic, or some other technique lets you put some of the responsibility back where it really comes from: the external envirnonment. We are sensitive reactive beings. Acting like we are always in control does not make it so. Hence the need for ritual and mind play.

[NiceWookie]

Originally posted by Harumi
I can say nothing other than the fact that such a thing is not magic in my opinion, and your belief that it is only feels to me like wishful thinking.

Unless you feel there was something 'magical' about acheiving a goal...well...all I can say is, "Wow."

I've done research on Wicca, and the occult, and many people do believe in traveling through dimensions, and even suggest schools and classes of how to do this.

Seems to me like your definition of magic is very different from what I've read. *shrug*

I shall go out on a limb and suggest further reading then. It is dangerously illogical to pidgeonhole the beliefs of someone who calls themself a Pagan, Occultist, or a Witch due the rather diverse variety of individual people who actually make up such groups.

As evident in this thread and others, critics like to imply some sort of in-depth studying in order to hype the more sensational aspects and less 'tangible' beliefs to create a distorted perception of all pagans/practioners rather than provide a clear, balanced perspective of the myriad of beliefs and philosophies that can be found.

To be blunt, Your reaction to my take on magic as 'wishful thinking' shows to me just how little you know of the breadth of magical philosophy and practice and seemingly shows a poor attempt to discredit someone who actually walks the walk as well as talks the talk.

Imagine that, someone who has done "research" telling a long time student and practioner they are practicing mere wishful thinking. Thank you very much for the chuckle.

What is it to you anyway? Why do you care if someone else believes in magic, or traveling through other dimensions, or anything of that nature? Why do you care that I think something as seemingly mudane as setting and meeting a mere goal can be percieved as an act of magic? Why waste the effort to even comment?

And yes, I do feel there is something magical about setting and then achieving a goal . Thats how I would describe havng a nice guilt-free sense of fulfilment and accomplishment when it is all said and done. Sometimes, I might even say "Wow" because of it. ;)

The process is quite parrallel to a practioner who is casting a money spell. In one case the goal to recieve more money is merely is written down, in another, lets say for example, a ritual money candle burning is performed to symbolize the goal rather than just writing it down. In both cases the person is still going to have to put forth a relative effort to acheive the money ( find a better job, network for more clients, work more hours, buy a lottery ticket, be in position to recieve a windfall) and in both cases the ritual has served to reinforce the desire. Does either gaurantee results? No, not absolutely, at least I wont say so, but I think it is better than not trying at all or merely accepting less than desirable conditions in life .

Are there unseen mechanics involved in the process? Perhaps. If there are, I call them 'thought', others may call it what they wish, but that is really irrelevant IMO so long as the the ritual works in either case to reinforce the psycological condition of empowerment to alter the course of one's life and reality. Clinical trials involving placebo medicine have conclusively proven that in many cases a person can be healed or feel the effects of a drug simply because they think they have taken a drug, when in fact they have taken a sugar pill. The same principal applies more or less with regards to magic.

Maybe I was wrong. Maybe it is not futile to discuss magic and or paganism in this context, if for any reason, to dispel the misperceptions espoused by less-informed by critics with questionable motives.

[brighid]

Nice Wookie,

I want to say thank you for your well thought out posts.

Harumi,

Have you ever experienced a time where a theist attempts to claim that atheism is something it is not (for you?) Does that at all bother you when a theist says, "oh you must be angry at God and you believe in Him, but you are just rebelling"? Apply that frustration in their ignorance to this situation.

People may define magick however they wish, rightly or wrongly. Some people see it as the Harry Potter, conjuring things out of thin air, turning people into toads, and making it hail as a revenge upon a foe. Now, I think we can all agree that IS wishful thinking and simply stuff of vivid imaginations and Hollywood special effects. If such things were possible and directly attributable to magick I can tell you this - I would be a very powerful, very rich woman.

The only thing we have control over is ourselves, and the ability to transform the human consciousness and effect the world around us can be some quite miraculous and "magical" if you will.

Perhaps "magick" has been defined incorrectly, or incompletely (just as the definition of atheism is often incomplete or biased.) However, IMO, it should be seen as a natural and transformative gift every human being possesses (and not a gift from some God(s)). We can do things no other species can and that is the ability to create things far beyond our own being. Our imaginations are boundless, and if that is not awe inspiring and "magical" ( completely natural and explainable) I am afraid I don't know what is.

I think people get caught up in fairytales and the desire that they can possess powers like Gandalf or the Charmed Ones, etc. That is simply not possible, and if it is possible it certainly doesn't appear to be at this stage of our human evolution.

What is possible is discovering the transformative powers of our own consciousness and manifest those powers into real action in the physical world. No secret there, except that so many people don't know how to tap into their own power because they have always been taught they have none (or that something else has power over them - God and Satan.)

Ritual/magick are very real exercise that intune the brain and the body. Now, this might not suit you. This might not be the thing that inspires YOU to focus, change or manifest your own creative power. That does not mean it cannot be the vehicle for others who do find inspiration and personal power (not power over others, which cannot be had except by force and/or manipulation)in the acts of ritual/magick.

Don't try and push others into a pigeon hole for your own comfort. The harm that comes out of your consternation is what you create for yourself.

Until Pagans desire to usurp your personal autonomy (like some Christians, Muslims, and other theists do) you should respect that each individual has the right to walk whatever path he or she wishes unmolested, even if you fail to understand their path.

If someone calls it magick and you call it focus, but the definition is essentially the same (even if some define it differently) there should be no problem. Potato, Potatoe ... the only questions that needs to be answered is why does it bother you so much?

Brighid

[Hooboy !!]

Originally posted by brighid
If someone calls it magick and you call it focus, but the definition is essentially the same (even if some define it differently) there should be no problem.
My quick two cents...

I think it is more than this. The rational perspective asserts that "focus" is a purely intellectual thing. Religious ceremony/ritual adds more to the process over and above pure intellectualism. It adds an irrational reinforcement that appeals to the emotional aspect of human consciousness.

Any ritual I perform is done without a rationalization or even an attempt at rationalization. The purpose is to clear my mind and tune my emotional state so that it is in harmony with my rational mind.

That way, they are working together towards my goals.

[brighid]

I think it is more than this. The rational perspective asserts that "focus" is a purely intellectual thing. Religious ceremony/ritual adds more to the process over and above pure intellectualism. It adds an irrational reinforcement that appeals to the emotional aspect of human consciousness.

Except within paganism. Ritual, being that one can make it be whatever one wants - such as the ritual of bathing in water perfumed with essential oils prior to making love - or the ritual of writing down the calories one consumed during the day, as well as the component of weight and cardio workouts - or the ritual of reading your child a story before bed every night ... are no different than "magick" rituals done within paganism.

Unless you have actually studied paganism, and conducted any sort of ritual within paganism you might find this difficult to understand. There is no static dogma, there are no defined boundaries and it is a completely free and creative process.

There is no difference, there is only individual preferences. What inspires and motivates you will not inspire and motivate another. What works for you will not work for another, and there need be NO religious/mystical element to pagan ritual WHATSOEVER, even if some make the choice to add religious or mystical elements to it.

Brighid

[Hooboy !!]

Originally posted by brighid
Except within paganism...Unless you have actually studied paganism, and conducted any sort of ritual within paganism you might find this difficult to understand. There is no static dogma, there are no defined boundaries and it is a completely free and creative process.

There is no difference, there is only individual preferences. What inspires and motivates you will not inspire and motivate another. What works for you will not work for another, and there need be NO religious/mystical element to pagan ritual WHATSOEVER, even if some make the choice to add religious or mystical elements to it.
I understand the absence of dogma and mysticism. That was not my point. Using your examples...those are highly emotionally charged events. Ritual and ceremony can provide motivation and focus on an event that defies rationalism.

[brighid]

Ritual and ceremony can provide motivation and focus on an event that defies rationalism.

How so?

Brighid

[Hooboy !!]

Originally posted by brighid
How so?
Good question. LOL

I dunno exactly. I suppose there is a reason for it, but I try not to think too hard about it. All I know is that it works. I use rituals prior to playing sports, hunting, a big meetings, etc.. Sometimes afterwards to calm the "spirit" (for lack of a better word) too. A couple times a year, wifey and I get away for a weekend. Lots of oil, candles, incense, feathers and food is involved...

[brighid]

I dunno exactly. I suppose there is a reason for it, but I try not to think too hard about it. All I know is that it works. I use rituals prior to playing sports, hunting, a big meetings, etc.. Sometimes afterwards to calm the "spirit" (for lack of a better word) too. A couple times a year, wifey and I get away for a weekend. Lots of oil, candles, incense, feathers and food is involved...

Okay, I see where you are coming from but I don't believe it defies rationalism. I believe when you examine the emotional/psychological and/or physical components of ritual and the desire for it one can come to a very rational explanation.

I believe it has much to do with focusing the mind and creating a sense of comfort (traditions and rituals do this), as well as impart as specific mental state that can be very helpful in obtaining a certain end. I use certain "rituals" to psyche myself up for certain events and others to calm my "spirit" when I need to be calm, etc.

Well .. it seems you have your own love rituals ... how pagan of you ;)

Certain natural items relax, stimulate, help you recall a certain event like it was happening all over again ... those are important parts of pagan ritual, and in one sense deliberate and conscious parts whereas someone else might use similar things without realizing what effect they are attempting to elicit.

I think of paganism as simply a path to mindfulness, one need not use paganism to achieve mindfulness, but if one can relate well to the characters ... well it can be a fun, interesting, enriching path.

Plus, I really like the archetypes of paganism. I mean, I am a Goddess in my own right ... atleast my husband thinks so and there is nothing wrong with being worshiped as if you were a Goddess incarnate ... let me tell ya :D

Brighid

[Hooboy !!]

Originally posted by brighid
I believe it has much to do with focusing the mind and creating a sense of comfort (traditions and rituals do this), as well as impart as specific mental state that can be very helpful in obtaining a certain end.
I read a book by Joseph Campbell a while back about the power of myth, which got me thinking about it. I understood where he was coming from and I understood it. But, I am no psychologist and have little desire to understand the "Why?". I am usually more intersted in the "When and How?". All I know is that there is a part of my consciousness that definatley influences my rational mind in irrational ways and no matter how much I understand that, it does little help me alter how it influences my actions and decision making processes. What I have learned though is that it can be tamed and trained to respond in predictable ways to various forms of stimulation. Getting both my irrational and rational minds pulling in the same direction can make the difference between success and failure.

Another good book was Greeks and the Irrational by E.R. Dodds.

Well .. it seems you have your own love rituals ... how pagan of you ;)
We are all secretly pagans.

[Hooboy !!]

Originally posted by brighid
there is nothing wrong with being worshiped as if you were a Goddess incarnate
Conversely, there is nothing wrong with giving yourself up entirely to the wishes and whims of another. When you spend the vast majority of your time solving problems and "swimming against the stream", it is sure nice every now and then to just stop and drift for a while.

[premjan]

only produces cramps in the long run. not an effective strategy.

[brighid]

Conversely, there is nothing wrong with giving yourself up entirely to the wishes and whims of another. When you spend the vast majority of your time solving problems and "swimming against the stream", it is sure nice every now and then to just stop and drift for a while.

Absolutely, and don't you worry he certainly get equal 'worship' in return :D


I read a book by Joseph Campbell a while back about the power of myth, which got me thinking about it. I understood where he was coming from and I understood it. But, I am no psychologist and have little desire to understand the "Why?". I am usually more intersted in the "When and How?". All I know is that there is a part of my consciousness that definatley influences my rational mind in irrational ways and no matter how much I understand that, it does little help me alter how it influences my actions and decision making processes. What I have learned though is that it can be tamed and trained to respond in predictable ways to various forms of stimulation. Getting both my irrational and rational minds pulling in the same direction can make the difference between success and failure.

I haven't read that book, but I have always wanted to. Perhaps I will pick it up. I guess I am more of a "WHY" person, so things interest me, but I do understand your point of view. I think there is plenty about the human mind we do not yet understand and another hundred or thousand years of study and discovery will probably only reveal some of what can be known about it.

I think ritual (call it repetition or focus) is part of training the mind/body to achieve a specific end, and that focus/training/repetition/ritual can indeed make all the difference between success and failure.


We are all secretly pagans.

Indeed we are :)

Brighid

[gsx1138]

We are all secretly pagans.

I'm pretty much blatant about it. :D

Well I had some stuff to add but Brighid and NiceWookie pretty much wrote everything that I would have. I do know that I chose Paganism after leaving Christianity for the plethora of archtypes. In Christianity you're pretty much stuck with one and it sucks to be you if you're female. While I'm not female I kind of always had it in my head that things need to be balanced. Believing my God/Religion is right and everyone else is wrong and get to burn in hell is not balanced.
I've also stoped worrying about the "why". I enjoy my coven and the poetic way in which we conduct rituals. Some of them believe in the supernatural and that's ok with me because at the end of the day we have a good time and everyone is happy. Another benefit of Paganism is that I don't have to get all worked up when someone tells me I'm wasting my time or it's all in my head. It affords me the ability to not give a shit about others opinions and just accept them for what they are: opinions.
I just remember getting so worked up, raising my voice, waving my Bible and doing less argument and more shouting. Now, I don't mind a little outside critical analysis to keep me honest and remind me of why I've chosen the path that I am on.

[Harumi]

Originally posted by NiceWookie
Imagine that, someone who has done "research" telling a long time student and practioner they are practicing mere wishful thinking. Thank you very much for the chuckle.

And now you know how a Christian feels when people tell them that their faith is merely wishful thinking. ;) Doesn't feel very comfortable doesn't it? Although I hadn't meant to say that it was wishful thinking. It felt that way to me. You can be a nice wookie and tell me why it isn't.


What is it to you anyway? Why do you care if someone else believes in magic, or traveling through other dimensions, or anything of that nature? Why do you care that I think something as seemingly mudane as setting and meeting a mere goal can be percieved as an act of magic? Why waste the effort to even comment?

Honest curiosity. I want to know why you think the way you do. Is that so wrong? And then I'm telling you how I feel about it, and revealing my skepticism. If you take offence to my skepticism, well, I can't do much about that.

Your beliefs are interesting. I've never come across such ideas before. I used to have a friend who practiced something like it, but let's just say that she was well...a bit whacky. She believed that she could be a wiccan and a Christian at the same time. Consequently she tried to convince me that her beliefs were right and tried to convert me. In order to convince me that magic was real, she went too deep into some things that frightened me, and I've never really cared to look at it the same ever since.

If the tone comes out scornful at times, forgive me. I was only reacting to that prior experience, and I hadn't intended to take that out on anyone.

As it is, I'm not sure why the term magic bothers me so much. Perhaps it is because I long for something out of this world and somewhere beyond reality, and when I see the word placed upon something that to me, is well, so mundane, that I guess it gave me a great deal of disappointment. ;)

That's the best explanation I can give. For now though, I think I will do some research. I don't think I'll ever get into wiccan. If there was a religion I would choose, it would be Buddhism.

Potato, potatoe...normally such things don't bother me, but when the term "magick" comes up, I get a painful little wrench.

I suppose I feel sadness that I'm stuck in a reality where magick is reduced to focus and acheiving a goal instead of throwing fireballs. :)

[gsx1138]

She believed that she could be a wiccan and a Christian at the same time. Consequently she tried to convince me that her beliefs were right and tried to convert me.

I've heard of a few folks that have tried this as well. Most of the time they're fucked in the head. You have one belief system that requires not only belief in a single God but the belief that it is the only correct way to believe. The other is decentralized, personal, and would almost never presume to be the one and only way to believe. I think most people who choose this just want to still feel mainstream but at the same time live out some hollywood fantasy of casting "spells".
Every Pagan I've ever met, and that's a shitload, would be hugely offended at the thought of converting someone. That is usually a source of pride in that we don't seek to tell others how they should live their life. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience but I think the state of the world today shows how many wack jobs there are out there.

[brighid]

I've heard of a few folks that have tried this as well. Most of the time they're fucked in the head. You have one belief system that requires not only belief in a single God but the belief that it is the only correct way to believe. The other is decentralized, personal, and would almost never presume to be the one and only way to believe. I think most people who choose this just want to still feel mainstream but at the same time live out some hollywood fantasy of casting "spells".

Paganism would certainly allow someone to be both a follower of Christ (as one God or many) and a Wiccan, but sadly the reverse is not true.

I have found that Christian Witches/Wiccans hold onto the Christian beliefs that aren't destructive and negative, but do away with rest of the dogma and other crap associated with Christian belief - a lot like liberal Christians in many ways, but they desire something more and find that freedom in paganism. They often don't want to give up Christianity completely because of the deep emotional ties they have with Chrisianity (and some indoctrination no doubt), and it probably leaves them with the ability to still say, "I am Christian" and avoid some of the persecution, horrified stares and ridicule that often comes with following a non-Christian path.

I don't really have any problem with Christian Wiccans. Nor would I say you "can't" be a Christian Witch/Wiccan. They can be whatever they desire. They are the ones who have to eventually deal with the conflicts that exist between Christian and pagan teachings.

I simply see them taking baby steps away from Christianity, sort of like using a security blanket or life jacket, while testing the waters of other faiths.

It bugs me that ANYONE would attempt to convert another person to paganism, or any religion (or lack thereof.) These things are a matter of conscience and should remain private.

Brighid

[Kassiana]

The only thing that I truly believe in is myself. Only I can change things around me, and only I can take the initiative to make the changes in my life.
--Good.

And it kinda sounds like you were bothered that I don't believe from your post
--Nope. Not really. The fact that this is a text only site limits showing things like my smile as I wrote it, the offhand manner in which I expressed it, etc. If anything, I thought you sounded more bothered by the fact that we believe and thought we would be offended by the idea that you did not. So I was reassuring you that nope, atheist disbelief in my ideas doesn't keep me up at nights.

I don't care. Christians don't believe what I do, either. Whoopty do. Heck, a lot of Pagans and Unitarian Universalists don't believe what I do, and I'm both. Doesn't bother me one bit.

[Kassiana]

Some people see it as the Harry Potter, conjuring things out of thin air, turning people into toads, and making it hail as a revenge upon a foe. Now, I think we can all agree that IS wishful thinking and simply stuff of vivid imaginations and Hollywood special effects.
--Yep. No serious or knowledgeable Pagan I know believes in that nonsense.

[Afghan]

Originally posted by Harumi
As it is, I'm not sure why the term magic bothers me so much. Perhaps it is because I long for something out of this world and somewhere beyond reality, and when I see the word placed upon something that to me, is well, so mundane, that I guess it gave me a great deal of disappointment. ;)

I think that here, in a nutshell, you have hit upon why (well for me anyway) magic does exist. To be honest, levitating coffee cups around by the power of my mind or hurling balls of fire sounds rather prosaic. And if such things could be validly demonstrated wouldn't they then just become part of reality?

What, in other words, is so wrong with reality that you require something else to inspire a sense of wonder. Magic, for me anyway, is reacting to what you call 'mundane' with a sense of mystery. I have not experienced anything that you couldn't rationally explain away. But I don't want to explain it awy. My world is richer for the significances and symbolism that I find in it.

[Harumi]

Originally posted by Afghan
I think that here, in a nutshell, you have hit upon why (well for me anyway) magic does exist. To be honest, levitating coffee cups around by the power of my mind or hurling balls of fire sounds rather prosaic. And if such things could be validly demonstrated wouldn't they then just become part of reality?

What, in other words, is so wrong with reality that you require something else to inspire a sense of wonder. Magic, for me anyway, is reacting to what you call 'mundane' with a sense of mystery. I have not experienced anything that you couldn't rationally explain away. But I don't want to explain it awy. My world is richer for the significances and symbolism that I find in it.

It's rather hard to do that when you've been:

1) Raised by abusive parents

2) Living in stress from following a pre-med curriculum

3) Suffering from depression with no family support

;)

The best way for me to deal is to read fantasy books and live in a world where such things are part of the norm. That's why Harry Potter is so cool. It's reality, and yet, for those who weren't raised in it, it isn't. I'm jealous of the muggle-born. They get to live in a reality that is totally different from mine, that's all.

[Afghan]

Originally posted by Harumi
It's rather hard to do that when you've been:

1) Raised by abusive parents

2) Living in stress from following a pre-med curriculum

3) Suffering from depression with no family support

;)

The best way for me to deal is to read fantasy books and live in a world where such things are part of the norm. That's why Harry Potter is so cool. It's reality, and yet, for those who weren't raised in it, it isn't. I'm jealous of the muggle-born. They get to live in a reality that is totally different from mine, that's all.

Don't get me wrong. Life is hard. I admit that my life hasn't been the hardest but hasn't all been beautiful and wonderful.

And escapist literature is a great thing. I'm more of a His Dark Materials man than Harry Potter myself but I've always suspected I have tendency to over-intellectualise. So no harm there.

But I don't think it's fair to blame us for finding what magic we can in real life as well. It's not that it's all bad. Life is hard but it has its consolations. It might not be fireballs but, hell, if everyone could toss those things around they wouldn't be magic any more, right?

[Harumi]

Originally posted by Afghan
But I don't think it's fair to blame us for finding what magic we can in real life as well. It's not that it's all bad. Life is hard but it has its consolations. It might not be fireballs but, hell, if everyone could toss those things around they wouldn't be magic any more, right?

I never did blame you. It's just not something I would do. I'm too hard on myself and reality to allow that. It's my personality. In part, I'm a skeptic because I don't want to be disappointed.

That's all.

[Afghan]

Originally posted by Harumi
I never did blame you. It's just not something I would do. I'm too hard on myself and reality to allow that. It's my personality. In part, I'm a skeptic because I don't want to be disappointed.

That's all.

And that's fine. I'm much of a skeptic myself.

And good luck with the pre-med.

[NiceWookie]

Originally posted by Harumi



Honest curiosity. I want to know why you think the way you do. Is that so wrong? And then I'm telling you how I feel about it, and revealing my skepticism. If you take offence to my skepticism, well, I can't do much about that.


I have no problem with curiosity or skepticism. I have a fair amount of both myself. ;)

Your beliefs are interesting. I've never come across such ideas before. I used to have a friend who practiced something like it, but let's just say that she was well...a bit whacky. She believed that she could be a wiccan and a Christian at the same time. Consequently she tried to convince me that her beliefs were right and tried to convert me. In order to convince me that magic was real, she went too deep into some things that frightened me, and I've never really cared to look at it the same ever since.

If the tone comes out scornful at times, forgive me. I was only reacting to that prior experience, and I hadn't intended to take that out on anyone.

No problem, I try not to mistake skepticism with scorn, but the two can easily disguise themselves as the other. You'll have to fogrgive my own implied skeptcism of your motives. It can be frustrating, getting whacked from Fundy Christians on one-side and condecending aethists on the other. I have a warrior streak in me and in war sometimes there is collateral damage if you can appreciate the metaphor. ;)




As it is, I'm not sure why the term magic bothers me so much. Perhaps it is because I long for something out of this world and somewhere beyond reality, and when I see the word placed upon something that to me, is well, so mundane, that I guess it gave me a great deal of disappointment. ;)

That's the best explanation I can give. For now though, I think I will do some research. I don't think I'll ever get into wiccan. If there was a religion I would choose, it would be Buddhism.

Potato, potatoe...normally such things don't bother me, but when the term "magick" comes up, I get a painful little wrench.

I suppose I feel sadness that I'm stuck in a reality where magick is reduced to focus and acheiving a goal instead of throwing fireballs. :)

LOL, well Im a long time AD&D player, so Im not sad that real magic is not at all like fantasy magic. That would take the fun out of fantasy if you ask me. ;)

Look, Magic at it's core is basically about taking personal responsibility for life. It is that simple. Its not saddness at all, but it is also not an easy fix to acheive happiness and get into heaven like the magic Christians like to sell, and it is not in all ways for everyone. Its not a religion at all, but more akin to a process.

I used writing down a goal as an example, but my personal practice of magic involves mostly creative viualization. It is fun and creative. In my mind I can blast a problem with a fireball, I can turn dirt into gold. I can make the symbology anything i want. I have mainly done magic for self-improvment...to conquer fears, to make myself a better speaker, a better friend and a better spouse. In this way, Magic is basically open to everyone, but one of the first steps in finding out more about is to drop preconceived notions ( and fantastic defintions) at the door.

And if its not your thing or you are skeptical, fine, thats just fine. :)

Peace

[Harumi]

Wait, correction:

I'm just sad that magick is reduced to focus and acheiving a goal when I want to throw fireballs and the like (while no one else can). :D

Selfish little me, no?

[orac]

Originally posted by NiceWookie
In this way, Magic is basically open to everyone, but one of the first steps in finding out more about is to drop preconceived notions ( and fantastic defintions) at the door.

And if its not your thing or you are skeptical, fine, thats just fine. :)

I find this quite amusing, really. You're talking to sceptical people, but you're completing failing to account for all the True Believers who actually do claim that an assortment of genuine deities that actually exist in a literal sense (mostly cribbed from an assortment of minor religions) provide their followers with the actual power to bend the physical universe to their will. Oddly, they also claim that this is called "magic" or "magick" and involves many of the same rituals and esoteric equipment that's apparantly also useful for goal setting and self motivation.

Note: very few people are sceptical of ideas such as "setting goals is useful if you want to achieve a particular result" but the statement "if you do a special chant and light lots of funky candles (and write down your goal and the steps required to achieve it) then you're doing real magic" may not strike people as particularly informative, no matter how much you later emphasise the goal setting rather than the special candles.

The one thing I still don't understand is why certain people insist on using the same terminology as those people and act surprised when people assume that their choice of words reflects the commonly accepted definitions of those words.

It's almost as if clear communication is considered a bad thing. Quite odd, really, but I'm sure it's all incredibly sensible and I'm just not smart enough to see the pitfalls in clear communication.

[NiceWookie]

Originally posted by orac
I find this quite amusing, really. You're talking to sceptical people, but you're completing failing to account for all the True Believers who actually do claim that an assortment of genuine deities that actually exist in a literal sense (mostly cribbed from an assortment of minor religions) provide their followers with the actual power to bend the physical universe to their will. Oddly, they also claim that this is called "magic" or "magick" and involves many of the same rituals and esoteric equipment that's apparantly also useful for goal setting and self motivation.

Note: very few people are sceptical of ideas such as "setting goals is useful if you want to achieve a particular result" but the statement "if you do a special chant and light lots of funky candles (and write down your goal and the steps required to achieve it) then you're doing real magic" may not strike people as particularly informative, no matter how much you later emphasise the goal setting rather than the special candles.

The one thing I still don't understand is why certain people insist on using the same terminology as those people and act surprised when people assume that their choice of words reflects the commonly accepted definitions of those words.

It's almost as if clear communication is considered a bad thing. Quite odd, really, but I'm sure it's all incredibly sensible and I'm just not smart enough to see the pitfalls in clear communication.

I would like proof of this 'commonly accepted defintion' of the word magic when used in the context of Paganism.

In reality, this 'commonly described defintion' is more likely a common described pre-conception. Who are these vastly superior authorities that writtien into the pagan dictionary this allegedly commonly accepted defintion?


Have I not communicated clearly? Did I not already describe the diverse nature of pagan beleifs and practice.

Who am I (or you) to judge if ones person invokes deity(s) to bend the reality with will when I simply focus thought upon desirable results and we both call it magic?

Im not gonna play words games here, the fucking dictionary is full of words with more than one meaning so get over it.

[Afghan]

Originally posted by orac
The one thing I still don't understand is why certain people insist on using the same terminology as those people and act surprised when people assume that their choice of words reflects the commonly accepted definitions of those words.

It's almost as if clear communication is considered a bad thing. Quite odd, really, but I'm sure it's all incredibly sensible and I'm just not smart enough to see the pitfalls in clear communication.

Of course, magic really means 'Zoroastrian'... sort of. Nonetheless, this doesn't seem an unreasonable question to ask.

The reason that people within the pagan use such terminolgoy in a confusing way is historical. The practice of magic used to be closer to the 'commonly accepted definition' but, as time has gone on, the people involved in magic have developed new understanding and interpretations of what it is they are actually doing. And there is nothing wrong with that. Much like atheists celebrating Christmas.