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Jack the Bodiless
January 6, 2004, 04:49 AM
I'd like to gather whatever materials we can find that can give creationists some idea of the extent of the fossil record. I think some of them actually believe that only a handful of fossils have been found (and that those are all jumbled up, and are sorted into the evolutionary "Tree of Life" sequence according to arbitrary "evolutionist preconceptions").

There is a somewhat related thread already active, How many fossilized species are there? (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72771), but here I'm more interested in the actual number of fossil discoveries which lie behind such statistics. I want to demonstrate just how solid the fossil evidence is.

For instance, according to this article (http://www.solomax.com/labrea.html):
Other than realizing I wouldn’t have the patience to be a paleontologist, here is what I have learned from touring the exhibits at La Brea:
So far, almost 4 million fossils have been recovered, and in all, some 140 species of plants and more than 420 species of animals are now known because of these discoveries.
...And that's just one location! (Numerous links place the number at more than three million, as a Google search on Brea "million fossils" will reveal).

And there's a rock formation somewhere (can't remember where) which is estimated to contain millions or billions of fossils of marine organisms by extrapolating from the volume already excavated. And I have no idea how many fossil diatoms there are in chalk cliffs, but it's obviously going to be a big number.

Does anyone have stats on the number of fossils that have been dated (by radiometric dating of overlying deposits or similar relatively direct means)? The number of radiometric datings of rocks (even without fossils under them) might be useful too: according to YEC's, "random contamination" or "variable decay rates" have to account for all these results and the consistent pattern they reveal about the geological epochs.

Jack the Bodiless
January 6, 2004, 05:46 AM
...Ah, I've since spotted that there's some relevant material on the "Prevalence of YEC" thread. I'll quote it here.
Originally posted by jj
First, there are a lot of transition fossils. Please stop claiming otherwise.

Second, you know you're arguing semantics here, because there are millions of KINDS of fossils, not just millions of individual fossils. I'm quite sure that there are literally millions of fossils in, say, Greenville Saltpetre cave, if we only count the ones exposed on the walls. There are (I counted a 3x3" area once out of curiousity) about 1 fossil/sq. in. There are about 2 miles of passage, most of it in the range of 10-30 feet high and 20 feet wide, and some of it much larger. That's a lot of square inches.

In fact, it's more like a billion fossils, just exposed to the air in that one individual cave.

These are fossils that I've seen quite a few of (needless to say I didn't concentrate on them or count them) at least at a distance myself.

Bear in mind that's just the surface of the cave walls. The cave is in a solid block of limestone several hundred feet thick and about 10x30 miles in size.

So that's some real numbers on the amount of individual fossils, something that is easily tested and verified if you want to put on a light and go bushwhacking in southeast West Virginia.

Now, the entire part of the appalachans are in fact underlain by such limestone and fossils.

The Lone Ranger
January 6, 2004, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless


And there's a rock formation somewhere (can't remember where) which is estimated to contain millions or billions of fossils of marine organisms by extrapolating from the volume already excavated.

Along the same lines, there's the Beaufort Formation in the Karoo Basin (http://www.palaeos.com/Paleozoic/Permian/Karroo.htm), in South Africa. According to at least one estimate (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/6flood.htm), it contains the remains of some 800 billion vertebrate animals.

It's also worth keeping in mind that limestone quite literally is lithified fossils. And so is marble, since it's metamorphosed limestone. Every limestone (and marble) bed contains countless zillions of fossils.

Cheers,

Michael

Jack the Bodiless
January 6, 2004, 10:10 AM
...Yes, thanks, that's the place I was thinking of.

I'll have to remember not to use the phrase "millions of fossils" in future. Even without counting the microscopic ones: if there are 800 billion vertebrates in that formation alone, "trillions of fossils" is a better phrase.

Jack the Bodiless
January 8, 2004, 05:27 AM
...Hey, I've just noticed...

Combining information from those two links, it seems that many of those 800 billion vertebrates are therapsids:
The Beaufort Formation - Karoo Basin

These deposts are very rich in bones, especially those of therapsid synapsids, and trace the evolution of these animals over a period of some 30 million years or more. The Beaufort beds have produced a remarkable array of synapsids as well as some important archosauriform reptiles (thecodonts) and an assortment of tetrapods. Plants like Glossopteris are also well represented.
Therapsids are reptile/mammal transitional forms (of course, any species that doesn't become extinct is eventually a transitional form to something else, but therapsids are a transitional form of major significance). And tetrapods are fish/reptile transitionals.

Therefore there are billions of fossils of transitional forms in the fossil record. A good answer to creationists who claim there are "not enough".