Christian exclusivism

[DetectedDestiny]

Recently, when I was discussing why we should trust the bible (and the claims it makes), someone argued that the bible is the only story in which a god sacrifices himself to save us puny humans. And the only book that claims god gives us salvation, where in other religions you'd have to earn it. He found it a compelling argument for the bible to be true.

As I'm not to educated in other religions then traditional christianity, I cannot verify this claim. But maybe some of you can assist me by providing examples of beliefs that are similar to christianity? While i don't think the exclusivist argument is very strong, all religions are exclusive in some aspect after all, i would like to see if it holds any thruth at all. Maybe some of you guys here can help me with that question?

[Sarpedon]

Read the Rg Veda. It begins with a god sacrificing himself in order to create the world.

Also, check out the Toltec cult of Quetzalcoatl.

Like most christian statements, that one is a lie that goes undetected because of the ignorance of most christians.

[premjan]

Shiva swallows the poison from the churning of the sea of milk, and the poison turns his throat blue forever. he's never mortal, so I suppose he can't die.

Many gods who come to earth tend to die at the end of the story. Krishna was killed by an archer at the end of the Mahabharata though it may not be as a sacrifice.

I'd say Buddha definitely sacrificed his material life for the sake of spreading his message. Even when he dies after getting dysentery from a meal of pork, he assures his host that it is one of the two best meals he has ever eaten.

I think religion in general does build a self-sacrificing attitude. Although Jesus is a rather striking example of the trend overall.

[premjan]

The story of Purusha or God being sacrificed by the other Gods to create the four hindu varnas may be the prototypical sacrifice. All of Hinduism is based on the concept of sacrifice. You give up what you have to get what is greater.

Of course, it has historically been terribly maligned as the source of the Hindu caste system. It is quite a poetic description however.

[Sattwic]

Originally posted by DetectedDestiny
And the only book that claims god gives us salvation, where in other religions you'd have to earn it.

Dualistic Hindu Schools of Thought have concepts such as grace and salvation that date to pre-christian times.

The Abhaya Mudhra of all Indian Gods and Goddesses is a symbol of Grace which means 'Fear NOT'. Salvation can be remotely connected to Vaishnava thought of God saving worthless and lost Humans towards Moksha.

[Fear Not - Perhaps this is an unique Hindu/Indic though that teaches Mankind to 'Fear Not' while Semetic Religions thrive on frightening humans with fire, brimstone, the devil, hell and such into submission. :eek: ]

[hinduwoman]

Many bhakti movements depend on grace.
Rama underwent terrible experiences and sufferings for the sake of teaching dharma to man.

Sattwic, I did start a thread some months back on how christianity is based on fear. A pious Christian is always called God-fearing, and not God-loving.

[Crowley]

Mithraism was once a mystery religion in Rome. Mithra
was an Aryan god seen in Persian literature as early
as 1400 BCE (before common era = before Christ)

Mithra was:

-born of a virgin in a stable on the winter
solstice--frequently December 25 in the Julian
calendar (the emperor Aurelian declared December 25 to
be the official birthday of Mithra, circa 270
CE)
-attended by shepherds who brought gifts;
-worshiped on Sundays;
-shown with a nimbus, or halo, around his head;
-said to take a last supper with his followers when he
returned to his father;
-believed not to have died, but to have ascended to
heaven, whence it was believed he would return at the
end of time to raise the dead in a physical
resurrection for a final judgement, sending the good
to heaven and the wicked to hell, after the world had
been destroyed by fire;
-to grant his followers immortal life following
baptism (bull's blood, though, not water).
Note: If you have seen the movie Gladiator, you will have seen a Mithra ritual in action, when they walk into the Arena with the blood dripping down from the grate above.

Followers of Mithra:

-followed a leader called a 'papa' (pope), who ruled
from the Vatican hill in Rome;
-celebrated the atoning death of a savior who was
resurrected on a Sunday;
-celebrated sacramenta (a consecrated meal of bread
and wine), termed a Myazda (corresponding exactly to
the Catholic Missa (mass), using chanting, bells,
candles, incense, and holy water, in remembrance of
the last supper of Mithra).

The emperor Constantine was a follower of Mithra until
he decided to make Christianity an acceptable religion in the Roman empire in 313 CE. Later, of course, he called the First Council of Nicea in 325 CE to determine the doctrine of Christianity.

[gsx1138]

Everything I've read suggests that the Jesus myth is far from unique. That was one of the reasons it was easy to convert most Romans and Greeks. They already had accepted stories of God men who came to Earth to help man. With smatterings of Mithras, Osirus, and others that I can't seem to get out of my cranium right now Christianity was made more acceptable to people back then.

[A. Uiet bhor]

There was also Odin who, in order to learn the rune spells, spent nine days hanging from the world tree with a wound from his spear and a rope around his neck, after suffering he died and the world became darkness. But he came back at midnight and gave the secrets of the runes to mankind.

[tangiellis]

Here is a list of mythological gods that sacrificed themselves, died for our sins, and bear a striking resemblance to Jesus:

Adad and Marduk of Assyria
Adonis, Aesclepius, Apollo(this one was resurrected as THE LAMB), Dionysys, Heracles or Hercules, and Zeus of greece
Alcides of Thebes (born of a virgin in 1200 BCE)
Attis of Phrygia
Baal or Bel of Babylon/Phoenicia
Balder and Frey of Scandinavia
Bali of Afghanistan
Beddru of Japan
Buddha and Krishna of India
Chu Chulainn of Ireland
Codom and Deva Tat of Siam
Crite of chaldea
Dahzbog of the Slavs
Dumuzi of Sumeria
Fo-hi, Lao Kium, Tien and Chang-Ti of China (this one's birth was attended by heavenly music, angels and shepards)
Hermes of Egypt/Greece
Hesus of the Druids and Guls
Horus, Osiris and Serapis of Egypt
Indra of Tibet/India
Ieo of China (the great prophet, lawgiver and savior)
Issa/Isa of Arabia (also supposedly born of a Virgin named Mary in 400 BCE)
Jao of Nepal
Jupiter/jove of Rome
Mithra of persia/india
Odin/Wodin/woden/wotan of Scandinavia (was wounded with a spear)
Prometheus of Caucausus/Greece
Quetzalcoatl of Mexico
Quirinius of Rome
Salivahana of southern India
tammuz of Syria
Thor of the Gauls
Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
Wittoba of the Bilingonese/Telingonese
Zalmoxis of Thrace (promised eternal life to his guests/servants at his "last supper", also rose from death on the third day)
zarathustra/zoroaster of Persia
Zoar of Bonzes

Okay, you can find at least one similarity between any of these fellas and Christ. Many on this list have died for the sins of others or were sacrificed for the greater good. Many of them have the same birthday and death stories as Christ. Others were commonly known by nicknames that we know Christ by today, such as "The light" "Savior" "Son of God" "Son of Man" and so on.
Now out of this list, you should be able to zap any Christian within a five yard radius because most of these guys also predate Christianity by hundreds, if not thousands of years. Further research can give you exact dates of their supposed existences.
Tangie

[gsx1138]

Excellent post tangiellis. I had no idea the list was so long. However, in the words of one Christian. All those were planted by the Devil as false prophets to take away from the teachings of Jesus and his sacrifice.

[tangiellis]

Originally posted by gsx1138
Excellent post tangiellis. I had no idea the list was so long. However, in the words of one Christian. All those were planted by the Devil as false prophets to take away from the teachings of Jesus and his sacrifice.

lol....the Devil of Christianity isn't original either. Look to the gods Pan and Loki. You'll see all the resemblance you need.
Tangie

[gsx1138]

Although I believe that those Gods were more like irritating tricksters and really self centered. I don't think they embodied evil in its purest form. Neither was extremist. I think that's more of a Zaroastrium (sp) trait.

[Mike Rosoft]

Recently, when I was discussing why we should trust the bible (and the claims it makes), someone argued that the bible is the only story in which a god sacrifices himself to save us puny humans. And the only book that claims god gives us salvation, where in other religions you'd have to earn it. He found it a compelling argument for the bible to be true.

If anything, I see this as a reason to reject Christianity. If as long as you believe, you can get to heaven no matter what evil you have comitted, and if you don't, you have "rejected the free gift of salvation" and go to hell, it's a really strange kind of justice. If I were to choose a religion, I would take one where you are responsible for your life. (Of course, the fundamentalist Christian will answer that if you were reseponsible for your salvation, you would be unable to go to heaven because you would have to be without sin to earn salvation. The simple answer is: Why? Why would God want us to meet such impossible standards?)

Similarly, it is a mockery of justice if there are only two options for afterlife: eternal heaven or eternal hell, just like a court which knows only two verdicts - "innocent" or "death" - would be a mockery of justice. Again, a religion I would choose if I had to choose one would teach reincarnation (or something similar) and no such thing as final salvation or damnation.


Mike Rosoft

[gsx1138]

CAKE OR DEATH!!!!????

I choose cake.

Man you're right, that was easy. ;)

[copiae]

Originally posted by tangiellis
lol....the Devil of Christianity isn't original either. Look to the gods Pan and Loki. You'll see all the resemblance you need.
Tangie

i disagree with you here.

Loki was the trickster god, with a tendency of doing "wicked" things. Pan was the god of nature, who, iirc, didnt like humans all that much.

The traditional christian Devil, a being of pure evil, does not equate. If you go by the devil being Lucifer, a fallen angel who fell over a disagreement with how exalted humans should become, then perhaps the argument holds more sway, but not that much.

On an interesting aside, and not wanting to sidetrack the topic, are there any examples of any religion having an "evil" like the christian Devil?

[tangiellis]

Pan was one of the original models for the Devil. Pan was a God that was half-man, half goat, a perfect form for the symbol of the devil. The pentagram was also a symbol used in pagan rites, so the Christian authors turned it upside down and placed the god Pan's head within it, the ultimate symbol of evil.
In the Pagan traditions that I've followed, Pan was a god of sex and lust, and was one of the prime gods worshipped on Midsummer (he is also vaguely depicted in Shakespear's "A Midsummer Night's Dream). This tradition of wantonness was considered evil by the church and so they demonized Pan and his followers were either converted or killed in Europe.
The god himself was not evil, that was attached later by several of the Church's writers. Same for Loki. The idea of trickery and mischief, the God of Lies....these are also familiar connotations associated with the Devil.
If needed, I can cite references to the above. Might take me a hot minute, though...lol.


As for the negative attributes, here is a list of gods and goddesses who possess the same evils as Satan and the Devil:

Mesopotamia: Arazu, Enmesarra, Ereshkigal, Erra, Ishtar (in some circles, it is thought that Ishtar is the first original succubus, in others it is the goddess Lilith), Lamastu (causes childhood sickness and death), Nergal (consort of Ereshkigal), Tiamat

Persia:
Aesma Daeva, Agas, Angra Mainyu (well known as the personification of evil), Apaosa (brings drought and famine....rides a bald black horse. This one always makes me think of the four horsemen of the Bible), Asto Vidatu (tries to capture the souls of the deceased as they rise to heaven with a noose; the god of death), Bushyasta (caused sloth and laziness, made men forget their religious duties/obligations)
Those are just a few, but there are way too many to put here...they had alot of gods and goddesses.

Are there specific regions that you are interested in for gods and goddesses? There are thousands of them, but I could give you a list of a few in each of the cultures you are interested in.
I listed Mesopotamia and Persia because right now I have several texts on these and am doing research regarding a few of them. These are fairly abscure and not wellknown. Others like Kali of India (goddess of descruction) have many many texts regarding them. Let me know.
Tangie

[Jackalope]

Actually, I'd be more worried about Odinn, who is called "The doer of good and the doer of evil" in many of the stories about him. Loki, on the other hand is mostly a trickster god until near the end. After he eats the witch's heart, he does become truly evil. He can't help it. He gradually gets worse and worse, getting himself thown out of Asgard. Then he returns during a feast and insults everyone there, and gets himself thrown out a second time. Then he shows up again and insults Freya and is chased out by all the Aesir. After that, he arranges Baldur's death, and that's the final thing the Aesir cannot forgive. That's when they tie him up with the intestines of his son and leave him in Niflheim underneath the serpent to have venom dripped on his head for the rest of eternity.

In truth, if you actual credit YHWH's description of himself as "I do good and I bring evil," he has quite a bit in common with Odinn...

[gsx1138]

It's probably just me but I'm totally fascinated by Norse and Greek mythology. It seems so much deeper than what is presented in the Bible.

[Sattwic]

Originally posted by hinduwoman
Sattwic, I did start a thread some months back on how christianity is based on fear. A pious Christian is always called God-fearing, and not God-loving.

Even though Jesus taught that the first Commandment is to 'Love God your Lord with all your heart and soul'..

John, the author of Christianity who sidelined all that Jesus taught, reintrepreted those teachings to mean something else altogether.

Today, Christianity survives on propogating the fear of judgement day coming soon. [Just as Jesus wrongly predicted that the last days would be ushered in and he will be coming in a cloud before that generation died], and offering Jesus as the only Savior....

The psychodelic visions of Revelations give the Fundies much leeway and freedom to intrepret everything that happens today, from discovery of Dinosaur eggs to the mission to Mars as signs of the Last Days.

[tangiellis]

I would have to agree that Revelation gives fundies what they need to see the return of Jesus with every sign of the times. There is alot of scientific evidence stating that the earth is in for severe climate change within the next 3-12 years...this is shown by the movement of the Gulf Stream heading further east.
Speaking with several of my relatives who are devout Christians, I was met with the response that the Lord is about to return. My aunt even expressed joy at these developments because it means that the end is near and all of the chosen can progress under Jesus to the promised heaven.
I found the entire discussion very disturbing. In light of all the things that are happening worldwide, she could find joy in all this suffering because of the return of a savior promised in a religion that seeks to ban thought.
Further, I was urged to seek in my heart for the love of Jesus and turn my life around before the time got too late to be saved.
Tangie

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

not to derail the interesting thread too much...

though....

i should point out that the historical Buddha was not a god nor did he die to save us from our sins.....

please continue with your normal broadcast...

[premjan]

I should point out that the christian concept that Jesus is going to come again, is a bit like the hindu concept that vishnu comes to the earth again and again to preserve order. the notion that god sacrificed his son to dissolve our sins, is a bit like the notion that the other gods sacrificed the primordial god (purusha) in order to create the phenomenal universe (see rig veda, purusha sukta hymn). As purusha was sacrificed, different portions of the world emerged from his different organs.

vaishnavism is formally similar to christianity, due to the notion of recurrence.

shaivism is formally similar to islam, due to the notion of a steady state of transcendence or change.

brahmaism is formally similar to judaism due to its focus on genesis and creativity and creation.

[lpetrich]

Also in Norse mythology, the god Tyr offered his right hand to the Fenris Wolf as a gesture of trust as the gods tried out yet another material to bind him. The material worked -- and the wolf bit off Tyr's hand.

[atechnie]

One of Vishnu's reincarnations is a pig, and in my mind that's the greatest sacrifice any god can ever do. :p

he's never mortal, so I suppose he can't die.

Premjan - From what I studied, the reason he doesn't die is because the poison never actually entered his stomach. This is not very scientific, but the whole point of keeping the poison in his throat is to save both himself and the world.

atechnie

[asgardhaven]

Am I wrong in thinking that Joseph Campbell covered this same sort of ground in
Hero of a thousand faces

Its been a while so please correct me if I'm wrong about Author, Title, or Content.

[hinduwoman]

many village goddesses in India are extremely bloodthirsty and vindictive. If a villager fails to worship her or behaves disrespectfully, then watch out! I am not sure though whether this makes them more like Christian Satan or God. ;)

[gsx1138]

^^:D ^^

I didn't know there was a difference.

[sodium]

Originally posted by DetectedDestiny
Recently, when I was discussing why we should trust the bible (and the claims it makes), someone argued that the bible is the only story in which a god sacrifices himself to save us puny humans.
Prometheus gave humanity fire, and was punished by being chained to a rock. An eagle would eat his liver every day, but it would grow back to be eaten anew. I hope Mel Gibson doesn't make a movie about that!

[tangiellis]

Off topic, but I think Mel would probably be making

The Passion of the Followers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3559753.stm

Seems Mel's film is making people have heart attacks. This of course, not counting those that were admitted to E.R.'s for difficulty breathing afterward.

Joseph Campbell did cover this in Hero With a Thousand Faces. It talks about the hero concept of a "chosen one" to save everyone. This occurs in many different religions, but even in alot of our fiction and movies (Star Wars, The Matrix....stuff like that).
But the idea itself is not new. Christianity has never been the first to have the concept of a great savior. Cultures worldwide have done the exact same thing with their religion, with mythology and with their fiction.
Tangie

[fr8trainman]

The fiction book "The Da Vinci Code" touches on how Romanism changed christianity (for the worse, apparently). Although a work of fiction, it refers to real academic debates (theology, history) and generally controversial stuff which has already offended catholics (esp. ultra-fundy Opus Dei). :D

Good reading for fiction fans, BTW. :)

Happiness,

Fr8trainman

[Yeshi]

Neither is Zaratustra a ghod, nor did he sacrifice himself for humanity.

He did introduce one of the (if not first) monoteistic religions, with Ahura Mazda Baga Vazraka (Baga Vazraka = ghod of rays/air/space?) being the prime deity.

Interestingly, Ahura=Asura is a term for jelous Titan halfgods in Indian pantheon, while Daeva=Deva are "ghods". The derived term "Div" in persian, though, becomes a malicious giant.

I think later cult/sect of Zoroastrism under Mani, called Maniheism, created the bipolar deity house of good-evil, and the term "Maniheian Devil" as a being that does pure malicious evil acts sprung out.

[Heathen Dawn]

And the only book that claims god gives us salvation, where in other religions you'd have to earn it.

Well, I’d hate to spoil your friend’s mood, but Christianity is not the only religion that offers salvation by grace through faith alone. Another religion that centres around the same idea is Pure Land Buddhism:

http://www.jodo.org/about_plb/what_plb.html

When we lose the way to enlightenment by the Holy Way, we often sink down into a world of darkness and despair. Amida Buddha, however, provides a way for us to attain salvation from this hopeless state. This is the way illuminated by the light of the grace of Amida Buddha, the Path to the Pure Land. The Pure Land school opens the channel to attain salvation for those unliberated through the way of wisdom. However, since this school is different from the Holy Path, it is sometimes referred to as pseudo-Buddhism. It seems to be Buddhism, but it is not considered to be genuine from the traditional point of view. Pure Land Buddhism is also mistakenly regarded as a religion for lazy people. It is sometimes called the Easy Path as it requires only the simple act of faith and recitation of the nembutsu as its primary religious disciplines rather than the many practices of observing precepts, attaining the state of "emptiness," chanting the various sutras and so forth, as the means of reaching enlightenment.

The Pure Land school established on this basis may be called the way of salvation by a "power outside of ourselves," or "other power" (i.e., the power of Amida Buddha). Buddhism is the teaching of the Buddha and the teaching by which to become a buddha, that is, Buddhism is the way through which everyone, regardless of age, sex, race, or ability can be liberated and attain enlightenment. Therefore, if anyone of disability were excluded it could not be considered Buddhism in its true sense. In other words, Buddhism cannot reveal its truth if anyone is eliminated. When Buddhism is understood as the way of universal salvation, we can understand the profound meaning of the Pure Land school. The essence of Pure Land Buddhism is revealed and apprehended through this line of reasoning and belief.

<snip>

However, when we come to Pure Land Buddhism, God and Amida Buddha seem to be the same. Both are believed in as a savior by devotees. Among the branches of Buddhism, the Pure Land school particularly emphasizes "faith." Devotees of the school realize that they do not attain enlightenment by their own power, but by simply having faith in Amida's power of salvation.