Gods without theism

[graymouser]

I've recently been pondering a sort of belief in gods without a belief in the supernatural at all; let me explain.

The basic claim of this belief is that gods don't exist in the sense that you and I exist. They don't even exist in the sense of classical theism. They're not worshipped, they don't grant prayers, they don't act at all. There is no metaphysical or physical place where these gods exist.

Gods, instead, are entirely human inventions. When we create a god, we take an observation about ourselves or the world, and anthropomorphize it. The resultant god isn't really a deity so much as a metaphor that we can better focus our minds on than we may with the abstract idea in the rough. These metaphors shift and are passed down, and are explained in mythology (which itself is simply an attempt to understand the world).

The result is not worship as understood by religions today. Instead, one chooses to venerate, admire, and respect those gods who embody traits that they hold highest. This devotion is personal and private, and has less to do with supplicating gods and more with trying to use them as exemplars of what we could be. Following a god means living more like that god's nature rather than trying to gain favor from that god.

Humans seem to have a long-inherited cultural trait of spirituality. This spirituality can be embraced by re-evaluating gods as, not superior to man, but creations of humanity that reflect us. I feel it is better than blinding ourselves to the truth of reality as theism does, and better than abandoning the concept that man has a spiritual side (by this I mean a mental capacity rather than any soul) altogether as a more austere atheism oft may.

-Wayne

[Adora]

Agreed strongly here. I say I am an atheist, simply because the current definition of "God" is "Thiestic Being". If there is one thing I do believe in, however, it is the power of people's belief to create subjective interpretations of anything, anytime, anywhere.

[Infidelettante]

Graymouser, many Pagans accept the deities as symbolic entities which one invests with attributes and characteristics according to ones desires.

These entities can then be approached as actual beings who can guide, protect, and teach.

Within my own system of ritual expression I presently am devoted to the goddess Inanna in her aspect as Great Mother.

Inanna is the present personification of Goddess I worship. She is perhaps the forth or fifth such entity I have worshiped in the twenty years that I have practiced.

I also practice devotions to male deities though they seem to limit themselves to minor roles.

If this understanding of deity interests you may find a study of Neo-Paganism rewarding.

I should add that I like to consider myself to be an atheist.

JT

[Afghan]

Originally posted by Infidelettante
Graymouser, many Pagans accept the deities as symbolic entities which one invests with attributes and characteristics according to ones desires.

...

If this understanding of deity interests you may find a study of Neo-Paganism rewarding.

I should add that I like to consider myself to be an atheist.

Snap. Here's another Atheist Neo-Pagan coming out of the woodwork. In fact, it has always struck me as a peculiarly Western preoccupation with the truth of religion. Other cultures seems less preoccupied with the metaphysics and more concerned with the practice of religion which strikes me as far healthier and, indeed, beneficial.

Incidentally, Don Cupitt explores quite a similar idea, from a Christian perspective, in his book (getting on a bit now) Sea of Faith.

[Infidelettante]

Originally posted by Afghan
Snap. Here's another Atheist Neo-Pagan coming out of the woodwork. In fact, it has always struck me as a peculiarly Western preoccupation with the truth of religion. Other cultures seems less preoccupied with the metaphysics and more concerned with the practice of religion which strikes me as far healthier and, indeed, beneficial.

Incidentally, Don Cupitt explores quite a similar idea, from a Christian perspective, in his book (getting on a bit now) Sea of Faith.

Check my profile and my posting history. I've been out for a while.

What works is true.

Religion is myth. Myth is symbol. Symbol is psychology. Psychology is the knowledge of self.

That you, knowing so little of me, call my beliefs unhealthy leads me to think you would benefit from even the most rudimentary understanding of them.

JT

[ashe]

Originally posted by Afghan
Snap. Here's another Atheist Neo-Pagan coming out of the woodwork. In fact, it has always struck me as a peculiarly Western preoccupation with the truth of religion. Other cultures seems less preoccupied with the metaphysics and more concerned with the practice of religion which strikes me as far healthier and, indeed, beneficial.

Incidentally, Don Cupitt explores quite a similar idea, from a Christian perspective, in his book (getting on a bit now) Sea of Faith.

Er, no. At some point you will have to choose a religion to practice. On what criteria will you make that choice? Will you simply choose what makes you happy? How will you justify your new behaviours to other people, particularly if you start to clash with another person on some issue pertaining to your newfound religious choice?

[Afghan]

Originally posted by Infidelettante
Check my profile and my posting history. I've been out for a while.

What works is true.

Religion is myth. Myth is symbol. Symbol is psychology. Psychology is the knowledge of self.

That you, knowing so little of me, call my beliefs unhealthy leads me to think you would benefit from even the most rudimentary understanding of them.

Umm. I was outing myself actually. And agreeing with you. But I can see how my post could be misconstrued. Sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by ashe
Er, no. At some point you will have to choose a religion to practice. On what criteria will you make that choice? Will you simply choose what makes you happy? How will you justify your new behaviours to other people, particularly if you start to clash with another person on some issue pertaining to your newfound religious choice?

I've not actually had the opportunity to clash with anyone yet. And quite frankly, it's none of their business.

[graymouser]

Interesting. It's good to see that I'm not alone in this stream of thought - that we don't have to leave the gods to the theists.

I've developed an interest in some of the Greek gods anew (having read a lot about them as a child), and I find that generally the goddesses tend to be much better role models, though Apollo and Dionysus aren't bad. I also find myself interested in Judaism for its Wisdom literature, and Christianity in looking for the sloppily-erased character of Sophia / Mary (as well as the wise, admirable bits of Jesus). I've also picked up the Bhagavad Gita, because I know there are some well-regarded myths in it that I might want to incorporate into a more rounded worldview.

Anyone care to talk about what they think and practice, and maybe give a few links to good information? There's a lot of pagan stuff in the Web, but much of it is very Wicca-oriented, and I'm not a great fit for the specific subculture.

-Wayne

[Infidelettante]

Originally posted by Afghan
Umm. I was outing myself actually. And agreeing with you. But I can see how my post could be misconstrued. Sorry for the confusion.

Welcome Afgan. I'm sorry to have misunderstood you.

JT

[Infidelettante]

Originally posted by graymouser
Interesting. It's good to see that I'm not alone in this stream of thought - that we don't have to leave the gods to the theists.

Anyone care to talk about what they think and practice, and maybe give a few links to good information? There's a lot of pagan stuff in the Web, but much of it is very Wicca-oriented, and I'm not a great fit for the specific subculture.

-Wayne

Could you narrow it down a bit. Ask about something you want most to understand.

JT

[andy_d]

Originally posted by Infidelettante
Graymouser, many Pagans accept the deities as symbolic entities which one invests with attributes and characteristics according to ones desires.


Buddhists also consider the various Buddha-forms, dakinis, protectors, etc as metaphorical structures. That's the reason why some are represented as being multi-armed. The intention isn't to depict the image an actual being, but to give enough arms to hold the right symbols. The human mind is deeply symbolic. Using symbolism on it works.

The representations simply reflect qualities within the practitioner's own mind. I believe Daoists hold a similar attitude toward their iconography.

[graymouser]

andy_d:

Good observation; I'll admit that my ideas descend in part from Buddhist apologetics, where it's claimed that the teachings of Buddha can help in the modern era even though Buddha did die. I admire many things about Buddhist thought, and feel that if Siddhartha Gotama was a real person he was among the best, but I'm not convinced of the complete truth. (I decided to think about it for a period of at least a year back in January.) Even if Siddhartha was just a myth, the quality of his compassion makes him very similar to the goddess I'm most attracted to as an idea, Sophia (Wisdom).

Infidelettante:

My big interest at this point is for resources about wisdom goddesses, particularly those linked with the Greek / Gnostic idea of Sophia. Do you know of any good info?

-Wayne

[Afghan]

Originally posted by graymouser
My big interest at this point is for resources about wisdom goddesses, particularly those linked with the Greek / Gnostic idea of Sophia. Do you know of any good info?

Certainly here in London, the Pagan 'scene' is a healthy mix of Wicca and Qabalah which means that Shekinah gets a lot of airtime. It's not quite my bag so I can't comment too much.

If Gnosticism is your thing, I recommend checking out the Nag Hammadi Library (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html) if you haven't done so already. The Sefer Yetzirah can be found here (http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/yetzirah.htm). For Greek goddesses, check out the Eleusinian Mysteries (http://users.erols.com/nbeach/eleusis.html). Not quite Sophia but that was more of a Platonic idea rather native Greek religion.

[Infidelettante]

Originally posted by graymouser
Infidelettante:
My big interest at this point is for resources about wisdom goddesses, particularly those linked with the Greek / Gnostic idea of Sophia. Do you know of any good info?
-Wayne [/B]

Graymouser, there are three books I recommend on the subject of the female divine. The first is The Goddess Re-Awakening, the feminine principle today. It is an anthology of sorts complied by Shirley Nicholson. The second chapter is titled Sophia, The Gnostic Archetype of Feminine Soul-Wisdom. I highly recommend this little book to anyone interested in a study of Goddess.

The second book is titled The Heroines Journey written by Maureen Murdock. It fits into the category of what most of us would call women’s studies. Or rather the more correct term which I think would be, the study of women. You will not make much progress in a study of Goddess unless you parallel it with a study of how women understand themselves, how they understand masculinity, and how they approach the Divine.

The third book is Goddesses an illustrated journey into the myths, symbols, and rituals of the goddess. This is a beautiful book. I can’t recommend it too highly. You will discover soon enough that you have actually begun a study of symbolism. This book is filled with images of the female divine. Images will speak to you in ways words can not. You will, if you really want to understand the Divine find yourself immersed in symbolism. Welcome this immersion. Drown in it. It is the only way to truly find what you seek.

I have not recommended any books with a specifically Pagan or Wiccan perspective. You will fare better I think if you maintain a broad, open approach to this subject. Please let me know how things go. I’m very willing to help in any way I can. Enjoy your studies.

JT

[Barefoot Bree]

Infidelettante:

Author of that third book, please?

[jankin]

Eclipse of the Sun
by Janet McCrickard

is also good. (My copy got stolen, dang it).

- jankin

[Eikonoklast]

A question for anyone here:

Do you look for other deities that have already been created, have names, some sort of historical significance, etc, that you would like to emulate, or do you sort of just envision what you wish to be like in the future and just assign yourself another name? Maybe I'm way off here.

[Infidelettante]

Originally posted by Barefoot Bree
Infidelettante:

Author of that third book, please?

Manuela Dunn Mascetti published by Barnes & Nobles

[Adora]

Originally posted by Eikonoklast
Do you look for other deities that have already been created, have names, some sort of historical significance, etc, that you would like to emulate, or do you sort of just envision what you wish to be like in the future and just assign yourself another name? Maybe I'm way off here.

Huh? Emulation of the emulation? I supose that's what the system is all about. Creating an ideal from ideals that then becomes part of another multiple system for the masses to simulation into themselves and etc etc etc repeat ad nauseum.

[tangiellis]

I, too, am a person on a journey, a woman that is seeking answers. I've come to the conclusion that "God" is not a god that is personifyed by man, which is what I think others are saying here as well.
Bascially, I believe that God is the Force of Creation or the Breath of Life itself, manifested in all things that we see, hear, taste, touch, and smell in this reality.
I have always been about the path of self-enlighenment. I don't hold with any institutions and hate being told what to think.
I've been studying world religions for some time now, getting familiar with the Gods and Goddesses of each and making correlations between the dieties of old and those of the new. I think very highly of Joseph Cambell. He's been like a springboard to me.
So I have studied various texts on various subjects. I will most likely do this for most of this current existence, but it will have been one hell of a ride.
Right now, I am studying Philosophy, Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Solitary Paganism. I call myself pagan simply because there is no religion yet that encompasses all my beliefs.
I have also been studying in depth films like Dark City, The Matrix trilogy and The Lord of the Rings because they seem to carry simimlar themes and symbology (namely the all-seeing eye, which was a concept originated with the God Osirius I believe, also currently featured on our One Dollar bills in the U.S.) and books such as The Da Vinci Code, Descartes Error, the Goddess Oracle and other texts.
One of the best books I've been into recently is called Dynamic Stillness: Parts One and Two by Swami Chetanananda. I got this out of print pair of books on Amazon after seeing a quote on my yoga calander.
So far the east-meets-west, religion-meets-science ideas within them have been very solid and eye opening.
Tangie