Atheists and Public Relations

[LyricalReckoner]

Results from a poll conducted by the Pew Research Center two years ago reveals, as one paper put it:

“While many faiths are viewed positively, atheists are viewed unfavorably across the nation, especially in the South, where two-thirds rated them negatively.�


Whatever the reasons for the public’s negative view of atheists, why are atheists so poor at countering that negative view? Why is it that an outfit like American Atheists doesn’t bother to hire a PR firm to change that negative view to a positive one?

Check out the message boards and the news groups that deal with religion. Check out this board, or look at the messages at alt.atheism. Given that most Yanks are Christian, why is it that atheists seem to go out of their way to denounce Christianity and make fun of it and belittle Christians?

There was a recent Pew poll that showed that over half of all Yanks would not elect an atheist president of the U.S. Interesting!

It’s pretty obvious that most politicians go out of their way to try to please potential voters, to win them over. Would an atheist running for president bother to make a speech denouncing Christianity?

Imagine Madalyn Murray running for president: “the world’s most despised woman,� as one biographer described her. Was she despised because she was an atheist, or because she went out of her way to antagonize everyone who didn’t share her beliefs?

What gives?

[Godbert]

i don't think it matters much what atheists do - christian faith basically demands of its followers to dislike them
xtians by definition worship a God who tortures atheists for eternity - considering that atheist are really not that antagonistic

“While many faiths are viewed positively, atheists are viewed unfavorably across the nation, especially in the South, where two-thirds rated them negatively.�

you probably would have gotten the same result for black people 50 years ago - would you have recommended them to shut up and agree with the majority as well?

Also I have noticed almost no antagonism from atheists in public (except internet fora) - I generally avoid talking religion with xtians I am in regular contact with
The few times they are in the news it's when someone files a lawsuit to protect themselves or their children against the latest xtian supremacy/indoctrination attempt - do you want them to roll over for every fundies insanity?
Why not get it over with and have a theocracy then?

[Godless Wonder]

I have a friend I've known for about 4 years here in Houston TX, which is the 4th largest city in the U.S. This guy is in his mid thirties, as am I. Recently, it came out that I was an atheist. He told me that I was the first atheist he ever met in his entire life. Of course, this isn't true, I was merely the first atheist in THIRTY-SOMETHING YEARS the let the cat out of the bag in front of him, but as far as he knew, it was true.

So, WHAT public relations? We have none, except that produced and distributed by "the opposition."

[Silent Acorns]

This has got me thinking. Suppose we were to find out that a much respected polititian was a rational humanistic atheist. Should we "out" them to help out "cause"? Would outing them almost certainly destroy their respect among the majority?

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by LyricalReckoner
Results from a poll conducted by the Pew Research Center two years ago reveals, as one paper put it:

“While many faiths are viewed positively, atheists are viewed unfavorably across the nation, especially in the South, where two-thirds rated them negatively.�


Whatever the reasons for the public’s negative view of atheists, why are atheists so poor at countering that negative view? Why is it that an outfit like American Atheists doesn’t bother to hire a PR firm to change that negative view to a positive one?

Check out the message boards and the news groups that deal with religion. Check out this board, or look at the messages at alt.atheism. Given that most Yanks are Christian, why is it that atheists seem to go out of their way to denounce Christianity and make fun of it and belittle Christians?

There was a recent Pew poll that showed that over half of all Yanks would not elect an atheist president of the U.S. Interesting!

It’s pretty obvious that most politicians go out of their way to try to please potential voters, to win them over. Would an atheist running for president bother to make a speech denouncing Christianity?

Imagine Madalyn Murray running for president: “the world’s most despised woman,� as one biographer described her. Was she despised because she was an atheist, or because she went out of her way to antagonize everyone who didn’t share her beliefs?

What gives?

There was this little thing called the Communist Revolution, and a Cold War that followed, which included 50 years in institutional anti-atheist propaganda. That just "might" have something to do with it...

MM called it like it was and told ther truth. As an atheist, to accept Christian views of other athesits is quite stupid.

You can read MM's speeches the American Atheists website, many of them are excellent.

[LyricalReckoner]

Originally posted by Godbert
i don't think it matters much what atheists do - christian faith basically demands of its followers to dislike them

Come on, now. That's the sort of Christian bashing I'm talking about. From a PR standpoint, all you're doing is giving the Christians who hate atheists (Jews, Muslims, etc) some bullets to shoot you with. Not a smart thing to do.

xtians by definition worship a God who tortures atheists for eternity - considering that atheist are really not that antagonistic

Ya know, Southern Baptists are no more the only flavor of Christianity in circulation than Southern Comfort is the only sort of alcohol you can buy.


“While many faiths are viewed positively, atheists are viewed unfavorably across the nation, especially in the South, where two-thirds rated them negatively.�

you probably would have gotten the same result for black people 50 years ago - would you have recommended them to shut up and agree with the majority as well?

Please quit being unreasonable. You're putting words in my mouth: words I reject. I didn't tell anyone to shut up, now did I?

[LyricalReckoner]

Originally posted by Godbert


“While many faiths are viewed positively, atheists are viewed unfavorably across the nation, especially in the South, where two-thirds rated them negatively.�

you probably would have gotten the same result for black people 50 years ago - would you have recommended them to shut up and agree with the majority as well?

Good point. What did the black folks do to change popular opinion? Did they go around and piss everyone else off? Is there a lesson there?

[LyricalReckoner]

Originally posted by Malachi151
There was this little thing called the Communist Revolution, and a Cold War that followed, which included 50 years in institutional anti-atheist propaganda. That just "might" have something to do with it...

MM called it like it was and told ther truth. As an atheist, to accept Christian views of other athesits is quite stupid.

You can read MM's speeches the American Atheists website, many of them are excellent.

I see: atheists were viewed favorably until the cold war heated up. Is that it? Even though the cold war is long over, Christians hate atheists because of Communists!

All the more reason for a good PR campaign, n'est ce pas?

[Godbert]

Originally posted by LyricalReckoner
Come on, now. That's the sort of Christian bashing I'm talking about. From a PR standpoint, all you're doing is giving the Christians who hate atheists (Jews, Muslims, etc) some bullets to shoot you with. Not a smart thing to do.

I didn't write the Bible



Ya know, Southern Baptists are no more the only flavor of Christianity in circulation than Southern Comfort is the only sort of alcohol you can buy.

so you are saying a majority if xtians does not believe in hell? That's news to me - it says believe or get tortured (yes, not in those exact words) in the Bible



Please quit being unreasonable. You're putting words in my mouth: words I reject. I didn't tell anyone to shut up, now did I?

your post certainly seems to convey the opinion atheists should be less antagonistic than they are now. Since atheists are hardly publicly heard of already that pretty much amounts to shutting up.

[LyricalReckoner]

Originally posted by Godbert
your post certainly seems to convey the opinion atheists should be less antagonistic than they are now. Since atheists are hardly publicly heard of already that pretty much amounts to shutting up. [/B]

If they want their way, then sure. When you want something from others, do you go and piss them off first, tell them how silly their most precious beliefs are, make fun of them and their kids?

Heck no. You butter them up. Psychology 101.

[Godbert]

Originally posted by LyricalReckoner
Good point. What did the black folks do to change popular opinion? Did they go around and piss everyone else off? Is there a lesson there?


No, they never confronted racists and hired public relations people to make white supremacists like them. Until this day you never hear black people say one bad word about racists.

Also you seem to imply that atheists go around and piss everyone else off which is obvious nonsense which I addressed before.
Most atheists are keeping a low profile unless their rights are attacked or theists feel the need to proselytize. I have not had many atheists knocking on my door trying to convince me there is no god.

[clark]

This really isn't a political thread. I'm going to move it to Church-State Separation and Secular Activism.

THOUGHTfully Yours,
Clark

[LyricalReckoner]

Originally posted by Godbert
I have not had many atheists knocking on my door trying to convince me there is no god.

Good for you. Go back to sleep.

[Godbert]

Originally posted by LyricalReckoner
If they want their way, then sure. When you want something from others, do you go and piss them off first, tell them how silly their most precious beliefs are, make fun of them and their kids?


I don't go and start pissing theists off - I only respond to their nonsense. If rational thought and logic are insulting to some theists, too bad for them. And in many areas, particularly science, taking theist babble seriously only legitimizes them - take the whole creationism crap. If you let them talk without exposing their idiocy you make it look to others like they actually have a point.

This is especially true in the US which is filled with "believe anything if you're told often enough" mentality

[Godbert]

Originally posted by LyricalReckoner
Good for you. Go back to sleep.

No I won't - but you keep on dreaming.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by LyricalReckoner
Good point. What did the black folks do to change popular opinion? Did they go around and piss everyone else off? Is there a lesson there?

They held public rallys, marched, protected, went on "the freedom ride", raised hell, had large speeced in DC, endured murders, and threats, and fought with police all over the coutnry.

[LyricalReckoner]

Originally posted by Malachi151
They held public rallys, marched, protected, went on "the freedom ride", raised hell, had large speeced in DC, endured murders, and threats, and fought with police all over the coutnry.

Civil Disobedience. They made themselves visible and they made their demands well known.

There were two main camps. On the one hand, you had mean-spirited people like Malcolm Little who went around denouncing white folks and irritating them.

On the other hand, you had those who were into non-violent civil protest. Martin L. King and such. They won the battle.

Seems to me, a bunch of college kids sitting at a lunch counter and taking it while the white folks shouted obscenities and threw food and drink at them . . . well, to me . . . that's a whole different approach from the one the average atheist takes.

So far as I can see, the average atheist is defeating his/her own cause in willing fashion.

[Godbert]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LyricalReckoner
On the other hand, you had those who were into non-violent civil protest. Martin L. King and such. They won the battle.

Now you are getting really ridiculous. Name one instance of violent atheist protest.

Atheists take a much more low key approach than MLK - I have not even heard of any atheist activists.



"Seems to me, a bunch of college kids sitting at a lunch counter and taking it while the white folks shouted obscenities and threw food and drink at them . . . well, to me . . . that's a whole different approach from the one the average atheist takes.

It's also a completely idiotic approach for atheists to take that don't face the lethal physical threat that blacks did.
And to say that sitting around quietly while people shout at you and throw lunch at you achieves anything is just mindbogglingly ludicrous.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by LyricalReckoner
Civil Disobedience. They made themselves visible and they made their demands well known.

There were two main camps. On the one hand, you had mean-spirited people like Malcolm Little who went around denouncing white folks and irritating them.

On the other hand, you had those who were into non-violent civil protest. Martin L. King and such. They won the battle.

Seems to me, a bunch of college kids sitting at a lunch counter and taking it while the white folks shouted obscenities and threw food and drink at them . . . well, to me . . . that's a whole different approach from the one the average atheist takes.

So far as I can see, the average atheist is defeating his/her own cause in willing fashion.

You don't knwo what the hell you are even talking about, no sense wasting more time on this thread.

[LyricalReckoner]

Originally posted by Malachi151
You don't knwo what the hell you are even talking about, no sense wasting more time on this thread.

A classic example of the average atheist in action: mean spirited, spiteful, full of anger.

Is it any wonder that atheists are held in such low regard, given such examples as Malachi151 and Godbert?

[Godbert]

Originally posted by LyricalReckoner
A classic example of the average atheist in action: mean spirited, spiteful, full of anger.

Is it any wonder that atheists are held in such low regard, given such examples as Malachi151 and Godbert?

Thank you for your kind words. I will gladly accept them and any lunch you throw at me, thus furthering the atheist cause.
Lets all follow this pattern and we will have God references out of our classrooms and off our dollar bills and religious fanatics in their churches instead of our doorsteps in no time.

You make so much sense it's almost unbearably illuminating.

[Toto]

<mod hat on>

This is an upper forum, meant for the serious discussion of issues and not the exchange of insults.

This could be a serious topic. Or it could get shipped to the basement.

[WNCAtheists]

Whatever the reasons for the public’s negative view of atheists, why are atheists so poor at countering that negative view? Why is it that an outfit like American Atheists doesn’t bother to hire a PR firm to change that negative view to a positive one?

First of all, I don't think that '"a negative veiw of atheists" has been established as the societal norm.

The study referred to as having been done in 2002 did not focus on atheists, but rather on politics. Also, more studies are needed to corroborate the findings.

Also, the survey failed to define the term "atheist", leaving a large question as to what the individuals responding conceived of atheists as being. The common dictionary deffinitions, and general public concepts seem to be skewed.

That many don't know what an atheist is one MAJOR problem for us, and one which individuals can work toward fixing. SOME atheists like to redefine atheism as a particular set of beliefs or a particular philosophical system. It is not.
Being an atheist doesn't imply anything else about a person's beliefs (http://cgi.citizen-times.com/cgi-bin/story/editorial/47593)
The linked article appeared in the Asheville Citizen Times Jan 1st of this year. I wrote it. I received a fair ammount of feedback about it, from locals as well as folks as far away as NY and California. Absolutely NONE of the responses were negative.

Another major problem is that even if people do know what an atheist is, they may never know that they know people who are atheists.Many of us are not openly atheists (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75208) About 51% of the folks on this board who responded stated that anyone who knew them knew that they were atheists the other 49% either hadn't considered the subject, were in hiding from everyone, or only opened up about it to close freinds or family, or on discussion boards. This survey is skewed as well, because all respondants consider atheism as important enough to join atheist discussion boards.
Figuring out WHY so many are in hiding is something that we need to do to be able to help more people open up about their non-belief (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/poll.php?s=&action=showresults&pollid=1004)
Almost 60% are afraid of how their families will react. Almost 30% are afraid of how society will react.
Demonstrating that society does not tend to act negatively toward non-belief
is a stepping stone toward increasing the numbers of us who are openly non-believers. In a Survey of Organizations of Non-belief (http://www.wncatheists.com/NBSurvey2003.htm). Respondants who were leaders of organizations accross the country were asked to give their Best and Worst (http://www.wncatheists.com/Best_and_Worst.html) experiences with the group. Only five responded with "worst' expereiences that could be construed as negative reactions from others in the community. And the "best" experiences outshined the worst ones for the vast majority, with the overall satisfaction rating from group leaders averaging around "8" on 1-10 scale.

Why do we hear so much negativity toward atheists?
Because when you hear it mentioned that someone is an atheist these days, it's most commonly related to political activism, and C/SS issues. The negative comments are from those on the other side of the C/SS debate who want to establish theocracy, or from those who feel threatend that we are removing from them some part of their world.
On the C/SS front, we need more focus by activist groups on education.
The religious need to understand that C/SS does not remove from them their personal beliefs, but simply maintains the freedom of religion. When groups like American Atheists serve as activist agents, such a message of religious liberty is lost. Groups like Americans United, with a broader support base, including religious individuals of ALL denominations is much more effective.
When we alienate others who are for the Separation of Church and State.. Alienate others who are actually our alies in the fight, we diminish and damage our potential to effect change.

We NEED to continue as C/SS activists, but this must NOT be our ONLY focus. We MUST seek the SOCIAL acceptance necessary for enduring change.
Enforcing and challenging laws cannot be effective if the opposition uses it's force to continue to break or create new laws to our detriment. To focus ONLY on political activism may be no better than bailing water from a sinking boat.
WE are BETTER than that. Let's focus on plugging the holes.

Darrell
Wncatheists@yahoo.com

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by LyricalReckoner
A classic example of the average atheist in action: mean spirited, spiteful, full of anger.

Is it any wonder that atheists are held in such low regard, given such examples as Malachi151 and Godbert?

Yep I'll call a spade a spade any day.

[LyricalReckoner]

Interesting. You're suggesting that many atheists are reluctant to admit that they are atheists. What would their parents say? What if the boss found out?

Very reasonable concerns (in some quarters). But then, aren't atheists in the same position that homosexuals found themselves in before they hit the streets and showed their "Gay Pride."

Certainly, there are many who condemm homosexuals as sexual deviants destined for hell. But look at the polls. Look at the laws. Today, in most civilized regions of the states, to tell an off-color joke about homosexuals is about as welcome as telling such a joke about Jews or Blacks.

Is there something for atheists to learn from the Gay Pride movement?

As to what an atheist is, I have to imagine that most everyone agrees that an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in God (i.e., the Monogod of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims). I don't think there's much confusion over that.

My own experience tells me that most people are baffled by the concept of agnosticism. Say you're an atheist, and people get the picture. Say you're agnostic, and many get this puzzled look on their face.

Funny. As I recall from two major polls released last year, there are more agnostics in the States than there are atheists.

[The Other Michael]

Originally posted by LyricalReckoner
Certainly, there are many who condemm homosexuals as sexual deviants destined for hell. But look at the polls. Look at the laws. Today, in most civilized regions of the states, to tell an off-color joke about homosexuals is about as welcome as telling such a joke about Jews or Blacks.

Are you familiar with the name "Matthew Sheppard"?

There are religious wackos quite willing to kill doctors who perform abortions (or even just the receptionists at clinics) or fly airliners into buildings.

Granted, most of us aren't likely to be in physical danger if we admit our lack of belief (presuming we live in one of those "civilized regions"), but there are certainly portions of the United States, and lots of places in the rest of the world where that is a definite concern (you might read the atheist testimony thread in SL and find out about the physical abuse some people have gotten from the hands of "believers").

You appear to be setting up straw men in this thread - you might try finding out just what the "average atheist" actually does believe/disbelieve/act like before making your sweeping condemnations.

Michael

[Malachi151]

This is my last 2 cents on this thread...

First of all, the term "agnostic" was coined in the late 1800s by Thomas Huxley.

There were politcal implications for this. By that time Marxism had become the most well known global champion of atheism. By the late 1800s the terms Marxism/Communism and atheism were all pretty much synonmous. Robert Ingersoll, also known as "The Great Agnostic," was very active in America dn made over a million dollars a year on speaking tours around the country giving lectures that criticized religion, denounced belief, and promoted an "atheistic" worldview. We sold out 50,000 seat crowds regularly and his speeches got more and more critical of religion as time went on, in part in responce to "consumer demand."

Even he though, shunned the word atheist.

As an example of a couple Cold War statements made by presidents:

"We face a hostile ideology -- global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and insidious in method." - Eisenhower in a national speech (obviously talking about Communism)

"Yes, let us pray for the salvation of all of those who live in that totalitarian darkness - pray they will discover the joy of knowing God. But until they do, let us be aware that while they preach the supremacy of the state, declare its omnipotence over individual man, and predict its eventual domination of all peoples on the earth, they are the focus of evil in the modern world."

"Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged."

"The Western world can answer this challenge, he [Whittaker Chambers] wrote, ‘but only provided that its faith in God and the freedom He enjoins is as great as communism's faith in Man.’" - Regan, again about Communism

High School School Book by J. Edgar Hoover, about Communism:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/study_communism.htm

Notice of course how it explicitly states that an atheistic world-view is wrong and that the "America way" is belief in "divine providence."

The generation of people between about 60 and 35 were hardest hit by the Cold War anti-atheist institutional propaganda.

"Gay Pride" and "rascism" don't directly relate to atheism, because homosexuality and blackness aren't ideas. Atheism is a much larger "threat" to society in that atheism is a challenge to religious world views, homsexuality and blacks arent really a challenge to anything, or only minorly so.

Everyone in the world cannot become black, or will not become gay by allowing these people freedoms, however in theory everyone in the world can become "victems of godlessness!"

Atheism presents a direct challenge to everyone, the other issues do not.

Blacks and homosexuals also did not attempt a global revolution that lasted the better part of the 20th century and is argubly still festering. Blacks and homosexuals don't challenges people concepts of reality and the idea of "eternal life."

To say that atheists face the same issues as blacks and homosexuals is to deminish the importance of religion in people's lives and the role of certian atheists in recent world history.

A few easy internet seaches will reveal many deeply paranoid people talking about the fear of godless socialism, how atheists want to enslave the whole world, how atheism in America is part of a plan for world domination by godless Jews, about how atheists use brain washing techniqes to destroy liberty, about how atheists are responsible for every bad thing that has happened in recent history, about how the plan of atheists is to make everyone worship "the State", about how Christians are the most persecuted people in America, about how atheism is destroying society, etc, etc, etc.

Of course its all half cooked ideas based on delusions, but the fact is, the opposition to atheism run MUCH deeper than opposition to just about anything else.

[Rhaedas]

Originally posted by LyricalReckoner
If they want their way, then sure. When you want something from others, do you go and piss them off first, tell them how silly their most precious beliefs are, make fun of them and their kids?

Heck no. You butter them up. Psychology 101.

Butter them up? Let them have their way? Allow them to project their beliefs upon others, regardless of the 1st amendment?

I don't recall any bible burning, or church vandelism via atheists, or any hostile actions whatsoever. Doesn't mean that doesn't happen, but what's viewed as atheistic uprising is usually nothing more than resistance against religion crossing the barrier of equal rights of belief. So if your proposal is to let them have it easier to promote a kinder atheistic picture, hell no.

They can continue to spread their mind virus in their churches, on the air, in the bookstores, but when they use tax money to do so, or try to get into public schools to spread their outright lies in their fight against science, the hell with playing nice. We're only fortunate that these days speaking out may get nasty glances and letters to the editor, vs public burning alive. Some days I worry that we may slip back to those days.

On the subject of an atheist politician, and should recognition be encouraged in fear of him losing suppose on that fact...I'll vote for a fundie type politician, if he keeps his beliefs separate from his politics, especially regarding issues that would conflict with the rights of others that don't believe as he does. Might be difficult, but there are many that have done so in the past. It's no different than having a CEO of a company that's highly religious, while some of his workers are atheist. As long as he keeps his work related views secular, there shouldn't ever be a problem. It's when someone, on either side, crosses the line to suppress another's belief system (not argue against, but restrict, something I feel few atheists would do), that a wrong has been committed.

[Worldtraveller]

I think I understand what LR is trying to say, and to some extant, I agree, atheists could use some good PR.

There are several issues here that would make that difficult though.
First off, the only thing we know atheists have in common is thier lack of belief in any supernatural entity (at least in theory).
As far as politics, or any other matter goes, we don't necessarily feel the need to group together and exert a collective will.
There is just as much disagreement on politics amongst atheists as there is amongst theists. Just check out the political forum.....
so there is no one central unifying 'agency' that would do the PR for atheists.
Sure, there are advocacy groups, but as a rule, they will not be nearly as well supported as even some of the smaller religious PACs.
And, with few exceptions, the others make a good point. The primary religion in the US is xianity, and although the exact degree of the message varies from cult..errr..sect to sect, they are pretty much told that atheists are bad and are going to burn in hell/not go to heaven.
That's a powerful force to try to combat with just a few slick TV commercials.
I'm basically a good person (IMO). I live a better life, even by xian standards, than many xians I know, but they still feel sorry for me because I'm the one that's going to be sent to hell? Sorry, I don't need that kind of loving god. This is the message that is repeated ad naseum by religious leaders all over the world, and has been for centuries.
No matter how good of a person I am, it will take much more than me being a good example to change everyone's mind.
...and I'm not willing to be crucified.....heh

Cheers,
Lane

[Brian63]

Actually, we are going to close this one. Please start a new thread if you wish to discuss the topic, instead of resurrecting old ones.

This is "Be Kind to your Moderators" week.

Brian
PA&SA mod