Atheists aren't guilty sinners, after all?

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Well, I was visiting my brother the fundy this past week, and I checked out his church (Sarasota Calvary Chapel). It was incredibly boring, but I found an interesting idea in the sermon.

The pastor told us how "We are all spiritually blind, until we are born again". Then he referenced John 9:


39Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."
40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"
41Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.


So it turns out that we atheists, being not born again and thus being spiritually blind, are not guilty of sin. Sweet.

[Heurismus]

'Educated, moral and cultured atheists have often helped lead the blind to salvation. The base sort of fundamentalist want to kill us, because their rabid ignorance and murderous prejudice do not understand the wisdom that the bible contains. Atheists are not swayed by children's rhymes, but equipped to see and understand, that which cannot be revealed to the blind.' Heurismus. 2004

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

What?

[Ellis14]

Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna
Well, I was visiting my brother the fundy this past week, and I checked out his church (Sarasota Calvary Chapel). It was incredibly boring, but I found an interesting idea in the sermon.

The pastor told us how "We are all spiritually blind, until we are born again". Then he referenced John 9:

""

So it turns out that we atheists, being not born again and thus being spiritually blind, are not guilty of sin. Sweet.
Variation on the No True Scotsman fallacy, methinks?

Like most of Jesus' statements, they are rhetorical and invoke circular reasoning, or self-fulfilling predictions.

e.g.:
"If you really want to believe me, then you will, and when you do, you will believe I am telling the truth, so you will know I am telling the truth. And since I am telling the truth, you should really want to believe me..."

It is a common ploy of mind-control techniques used in cults (esp. religions) to state that only the "evil, blinded, unholy, unworthy, dishonest, perverted, unchosen, stupid, wicked" etc, cannot understand "the truth". It is after all, what would be expected if the religion was the truth. It is also what would be expected to be claimed to scare people if the religion was a lying pile of delusional garbage.

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

huh, I thought more people would be interested in this brand new way to tell theists you were saved.

"Sorry, I'm spiritually blind, and Jesus says that means I'm not guilty of sin."

[Heurismus]

Nice one Bumble Bee Tuna. Its just that I couldn't help putting that in. Was Freud a great believer I ask. Do the fields of Psychiatry, Psychology, Medicine and Therapy have any stigma of falsehood? No, I think that brave people have tackled these problems and found Religion to be wholly counterproductive in the modern world. Thanks for your OP, a good intro. Heurismus.

[Amos]

Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna

So it turns out that we atheists, being not born again and thus being spiritually blind, are not guilty of sin. Sweet.

What he really means here is that those who are not born again are spiritually blind and do not feel the conviction of sin. This is based on (Gal.2:17) and Romans 7 (9) is also full of it. They would be called "cold" members of the flock who have not been awakened as of yet . . . but are sinners nonetheless or they could not be awakened in time to come. To be "free from sin" one must not have been part of our mythology because the laws are written upon our heart "as if in stone."

I should add here that it cannot be "sweet" if the possibibily that I am correct in my observation did not exist. Fear not, however, for if you are just cold you can also just walk away from it all-- but with the unresolved question with regard to the existence of your own conscience. Ie, who needs it as an atheist?

[sparklecat]

Originally posted by Amos
What he really means here is that those who are not born again are spiritually blind and do not feel the conviction of sin. This is based on (Gal.2:17) and Romans 7 (9) is also full of it. They would be called "cold" members of the flock who have not been awakened as of yet . . . but are sinners nonetheless or they could not be awakened in time to come. To be "free from sin" one must not have been part of our mythology because the laws are written upon our heart "as if in stone."

So what sort of blindness is it then, exactly, that makes one not guilty?

[Ellis14]

"None are so blind as those forbidden to see."

Christianity, which began which Jesus, doesn't encourage its followers to look, because they might just see see it for what it is: nothing.

Why else would we be given amazing promises like this:

"If you have faith you can move mountains"

vs

"...but don't put your God to the test?"

Hmmm. :rolleyes:

Here is the Ellis10 religion:

"If you believe in me, I will grant you the ability to fly! Of course if you don't believe me and try and find out if I'm telling the truth, I'll let you plummet to your death!"

Heads I win, tails you lose.

[Amos]

Originally posted by sparklecat
So what sort of blindness is it then, exactly, that makes one not guilty?

Not guilty is after redemption when all has been made clear through the understanding of the origin of our character traits that are incarnate upon us (from "blood is thicker than water"). Here our conscience is removed though understanding and total freedom of conscience can exists (rather Stoic or beyond).

Not guilty in our civilization can be for those who's conscience is 'carved' in their mind by their own mythology and here I should add that this can be different than ours and may just be just opposite to ours.

[Heurismus]

Here is the Ellis10 religion:

"If you believe in me, I will grant you the ability to fly! Of course if you don't believe me and try and find out if I'm telling the truth, I'll let you plummet to your death!"

Aylmer of Malmesbury is on record as having jumped from a now demolished Abbey tower with wings. It is reputed that he glided quite a distance. He broke both legs and when corrections to his design were affected, he was dissuaded from another attempt, by other divines. I know not how apocryphal this is, I have yet to go to Malmesbury in Wiltshire England, to follow up some other research. However, it illustrates your point perfectly. They just want to keep power at any cost, that's why they continue to instill the nether realms of a fairy tale castle in the sky; with gates and keepers, and funfairs all around, in the vision of childlike eyes. Chidrens goodies perversely promised but malifluously obtained, by the goadings of the latter day Centurions. Heurismus