Letter to a JW

[atheist]

For several months now, I really nice Jehovah's Witness has been knocking at my door, talking with me, and giving me JW literature to read. So far, I've been very polite, and so has she. I've even been reading the literature she's been giving to me: I like to be informed. I think I've been targetted as a 'token atheist' on the block, and she has been using me for "show and tell" to other JWs - not that I mind that much.

Anyway, I want to respond to her (as futile as that may be), and was hoping for some feedback on a letter I have prepared for her. I think it would be an interesting experience for me.

I hope it's not too long.

Here it goes...


Dear _____,

It has been several months that you have been coming around and speaking with me. I have been reading the literature that you have giving me, and I have spent a lot of time thinking about how I might respond to you. You have always been very polite, and except for the unexpected times of your visits, I have never felt inconvenienced or annoyed by your arrival.

I do hope you take the time to read this letter to you. I was hoping that you could clarify something that has been bothering me since your last visit. I've included an excerpt from the February 15, 2004 issue of "The Watchtower". Now, I understand (or at least hope) that you really won't consider me as your "enemy" as the article suggests; however, after reading the selected passage, I've come to question whether or not there could exist a open dialog between us. It has even raised the question as to whether or not you would even finish reading this letter I've written to you. Before you do read any further, perhaps 1 Corinthians 10:13, the same quote used in the article, would be of service to you.

My questions that I hope you would answer are as follows: If my purported "smooth words, flattery, and twisted reasoning" is such detriment to your faith (Proverbs 11:9), then why do you continue to come around? Do you really believe the my "twisted, poisonous reasoning" will cause you "spiritual harm" and "contaminate your faith like rapidly spreading gangrene"? (Here, the article strangely references 2 Timothy 2:16-18, where Paul condemns Hymenaeus and Philetus for disagreeing with him about the timing of the resurrection.)

Unfortunately, for me, it appears that the article already tells you how to (not) respond to me: "It would be a mistake to think that you need to listen to [me] or to read [my] writings to refute my arguments." This is, I'm afraid, where any successful communication that we may have with each other will break down. Any arguments I may present to you arise from serious questions I have about religion: "by knowledge are the righteous rescued." As I understand things, knowledge starts by asking questions, and is refined by challenging the answers. Am I wrong in this regard?

Please, don't be discouraged from coming around. If you do feel that you can respond to me, I would look forward to it. Take your time, and even write me a letter back, if that is what suites you best (as it does me).

Sincerely,
Christopher



-- Excerpt from "The Watchtower", February 15, 2004, (page 28) --

Enemy Tactics
Contending with this world can at times be like walking through a field sown with land mines. Attack can come from any quarter, and the enemy tries to catch you unawares. Rest assured, though, that Jehovah has supplied all the protection you need. - 1 Corinthians 10:13
The enemy may aim a blow by attacking Bible truths that are fundamental to your faith. Apostates may use smooth words, flattery, and twisted reasoning to try to defeat you. But the apostate does not have your well-being at heart. Proverbs 11:9 notes: "By his mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin, but by knowledge are the righteous rescued."
It would be a mistake to think that you need to listen to apostates or to read their writings to refute their arguments. Their twisted, poisonous reasoning can cause spiritual harm and can contaminate your faith like rapidly spreading gangrene. (2 Timothy 2:16,17) Rather, imitate God's response to apostates. Job said of Jehovah; "Before him no apostate will come in." - Job 13:16.

-- End of excerpt --

Bible quotes referenced follow (taken from the Revised Standard Version):

"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it." - 1 Corinthians 10:13

"With his mouth the godless man would destroy his neighbor, but by knowledge the righteous are delivered." - Proverbs 11:9

"Avoid such godless chatter, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,
[17] and their talk will eat its way like gangrene. Among them are Hymenae'us and Phile'tus,
[18] who have swerved from the truth by holding that the resurrection is past already. They are upsetting the faith of some." - Timothy 2:16,17,18 (added verse 18, which was omitted for some reason).

"This will be my salvation, that a godless man shall not come before him." - Job 13:16.

[Boomeister]

Very thoughtful and respectful. Leave it as is.
Good luck in your continued dialog.

Boomeister

[NeverByte]

Having been a JW at one point myself, I'd like to point out that you aren't considered an 'apostate'. Apostates are those who join up with the JW's, get baptised, and then turn away from 'the truth'. Apostates are basically outcast from JW society, they're not allowed to speak to anyone in the congregation, even their own families are 'encouraged' not to have anything to do with them anymore. Not very pleasant.

So at this point, you're simply considered ignorant of 'the truth', and as you've been so polite to this lady, she'll keep coming around. Might also be a good idea to look at this page:

http://www.wauk.freeserve.co.uk/study.htm

[atheist]

Thanks for the info, NeverByte. This is why I wanted some feedback. She knows that I used to be a Christian, but turned to atheism, so I figured the that term may have applied to me.

I've been doing a lot of thinking about my attitudes towards other peoples' beliefs. I've come to the conclusion that while I respect their right to believe whatever it is they want, I feel a responsibility to encourage a world of free/skeptical thinking (inspired by the late Carl Sagan). So, that's why I don't want to turn anyone away. I figure I can handle it. I have the patience. I just need to learn/experience a little more.

I will reconsider how I might respond to her.

[Zora]

I too have a JW who comes by and gives me her little pamphlets. She has never been impolite. In fact, we rarely talk about religion when she drops by. JW's are outcasts among many mainstream Christians, and I believe she is better treated here than at the Christian homes she goes to.

She asked if I had seen the new Christ movie. I told her no, I didn't care to see a person tortured for 2 hours. She said it really happened. I said the crucifiction may have happened, but that didn't convince me Jesus was Lord/Son of God/Resurrected or any of the rest. She said, "Well, at least you are reading the literature, which shows you have an open mind." She will never get it. And, neither will your JW. But, it can't hurt to try!

[atheist]

Part of my reasoning for trying this is to adjust my attitudes/behaviour towards other people with different belief systems. I don't want to just 'let them be' anymore.

It's been a few years since my 'deconversion' to atheism, and since then, I think I've started maturing/thinking in ways that my previous beliefs tended to hinder. For example, I've discovered a renewed interested in learning; I'm returning to University this fall to obtain a Bachelors of Science in Physics; I'm reading way more books (without the Christian slant). I've also noticed that I care a lot more about the type of world I live in, both environmentally and politically. Basically, I've become more concerned with what sort of legacy I can leave the world, instead of worrying about Jebus flying down from the clouds and kicking my sinful ass to hell.

That being said, if I can successfully encourage someone else to start thinking for themself - to be more inquisitive/skeptical - instead of just believing out of blind faith, then perhaps I can start something that will lead to a better future.

Ubi dubium ibi libertas - Where there is doubt, there is freedom. :)

[AspenMama]

Hello atheist-- As you've asked for feedback on this letter, I'm going to move this to CSS&SA where you may get some additional comments.

---AspenMama, SL Moderator

[Dialogian]

Originally posted by atheist
Ubi dubium ibi libertas - Where there is doubt, there is freedom.
I like this quote! Is this your coinage or have you gleaned it from another source? If the latter, from where?


--Dialogian

[atheist]

Originally posted by Dialogian
Originally posted by atheist

I like this quote! Is this your coinage or have you gleaned it from another source? If the latter, from where?

--Dialogian

It's a Latin Proverb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_proverbs

[Vorkosigan]

Sure, sure....keep telling yourselves it's just about religion. C'mon, 'fess up. She wants you, you want her...this sounds like romance in the making. I can hear the wedding bells already....

[atheist]

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
Sure, sure....keep telling yourselves it's just about religion. C'mon, 'fess up. She wants you, you want her...this sounds like romance in the making. I can hear the wedding bells already....

Har har...

She's as old as my mother, and besides, I'm already married to a very beautiful woman. I'm just starting to think, that as a responisble human being, I shouldn't let people to be so fooled and taken advantage of. If I can plant any seeds of doubt, I'm going to go for it.

I know there are at least a few ex-JWs here, so I figured it was a good forumn to ask for advice.

[atheist]

Well, she made another appearance on Friday, with a new person accompanying her. Anyway, we all agreed that she would come by some time this Friday and go over the "brochure" (lesson plan) she gave me. I made it clear that I will expect them to consider other sources other than the JW Bible and "The Watchtower" and "Awake" pamphlets. I told them that I might have science journals, real reports of 'raw' data collected by scientists, and some books/articles by respected people (Carl Sagan, David Suzuki, ... ). I don't expect them to read any of it themselves, but I will cite them. :)

I'm not planning to challenge their beliefs in "YHWH"; Instead, I think it would be fair to present them with tangible reasons why I believe in things like evolution and a 13.7 billion year old universe, and why I don't believe in things like Noah's flood story. I would like to let them know that "we" aren't being decieved by "Satan", and have real, credible reasons and standards for accepting (and rejecting) scientific theories.

The way I see it, I will be learning something: about JW! I'll admit that before they started visiting me, I didn't know very much about it. They are usually very nice, and I think I could like them "as people". And, sometimes, the little ironies and explanations can serve to amuse me for days afterwards. I'm not laughing at them, but... I'll give you a couple examples: 1) They really seem to have a persecution complex. Sure, people can be unfriendly to JWs, but I wonder if they really understand what it is like to be someone who really is persecuted? 2) Something moreso disturbing than amusing, but food for thought nonetheless, was their justification for the "she bear killing 42 children" story: Jehova use to have a direct involvement with people, and this was to teach children respect. I'll quote one of them "I bet those children never taunted a baldy before!" It does seem like trying to talk about these stories with them is rather pointless, and I think I'll try to avoid them.

They can teach me all about their version of their god. However, I'm going to try and teach them about science, scientific method, how progress is made in science, and how religious beliefs are reconciled to the facts after the facts.

Whether or not I succeed, at least I find the discussions are entertaining (much more than anything on crappy television - except for maybe "Jack Van Impe Presents" :p ).

[Toto]

Moving this to the new Secular Activism Forum.

[Enai]

I'd like to her how your discussion with the JW's went, if you please. I always think it's interesting how brainashed people respond to anything challenging their indoctrination. I wish you success in making them think, but my hopes are low.

Enai

[atheist]

The meeting will have to wait a bit - my inlaws are coming over to visit.

However, when it does happen, I'll be sure to post about it here. :)

Oh, and thank you to everyone who has sent me information about JWs.

[atheist]

I did call to inform her that I won't be available tomorrow. There was no answer, so I left a message. Anyway, she called back about an hour later, and said that it was so nice for me to let her know that my plans had changed. Apparently, many people don't do that sort of thing; They just don't answer the door, or tell them to go away.

Anyway, we had a nice talk on the phone. She left a little book on her last visit named "Life - How did it get here? By evolution or by creation?" (a Watchtower publication). She asked me if I read it, and what I thought. I told her. :)

The booklets likes to emphasize a lack of transitional/intermediate in the fossil record. It tries to discredit mutation as a mechanism for evolution by quoting Dobzhansky: "Poking a stick into ... one's radio set will seldom make it work better." It gets a bit redundant by finding many different ways to say "A horse is still a horse" (but, "horse" is replaced with numerous other "Kinds" of species).

Anyway, I oly got half way through the book; I had to stop after a page of "facts" that discredit the theory of evolution:


"(1) Life comes only from previous life; (2) no way to form complex genetic code by chance"

"Fossils show: (1) sudden appearance of complex life in great variety; (2) each new kind separate from previous kinds; no linking forms"

"No new kinds gradually appearing, although many varieties; no incompletely formed bones or organs"

"Small mutations harmful, large ones lethal; never result in anything new"

"Language contemporaneous with man; ancient ones often more complex than modern"

"Civilization appears with man; any cave dwellers were contemporary with civilization"

"Oldest written records date back only 5,000 years"


I told her that these "facts" are either wrong, or fallacious, and I'd be happy to explain why I think so when we meet next week. Maybe I'll try and stomach the other half of the book before she visits. :)

[atheist]

She stood me up. :(

I'll have to call her and ask why she didn't show.

[Enai]

She stood me up. :(

I'll have to call her and ask why she didn't show.

Bah. And here I thought I'd enjoy a good atheist vs. JW debate transcript. Now I'm disappointed.

But then, it saves you the mental anguish of discussing nonsense as if it were fact.

Enai

[knuckles644]

As a minor (15 yo :))in a Jehovahs Witness family, I find this thread...interesting. I do not suscribe to their beliefs, but my parents still have me go to "meetings" and take part in the "Field Ministry".

As far as the JW who stood you up, she probably took your invitation as a challenge, or something similar. JWs don't often take part in open discussions, as you may have guessed, and they don't know diddly about evolution or science in general. But that's the strange thing. Even though they may have never read a scientific text in their life, they believe they know everything about science & evolution.

A few weeks ago there was a talk on Science at my congregation. I was pretty shocked by some of the things said. Like, in regards to the big bang it was said, "the big bang could not have brought forth all of this diversity...etc. scientists realize this and now have come up with punctuated equilibrium, which is a bunch of 'little bangs'".

I recently convinced my father that his beliefs were not in conflict with evolution, but the next week I talked to him, everytime I mentioned evolution, he would chuckle. You have no idea how frustrating it is to talk with a JW about anything scientific...

Sorry she didn't come...if I had recieved that letter, I would most definitely had come and you could had assisted in my dissent :cool:

I also have to mention that the "Creation" book you mentioned is the only source of my fathers scientific knowledge...great. :banghead:

[Nasreddin]

JWs don't often take part in open discussions, as you may have guessed, and they don't know diddly about evolution or science in general. But that's the strange thing. Even though they may have never read a scientific text in their life, they believe they know everything about science & evolution.

Funny you should say that...had JWs come 'round a few weeks ago, sat down with them for a nice chat to find out more about what they believe and found out, among other things, that scientists have apparently proven that the Earth rests on pillars (at least they didn't say it was flat - the pillars are supposedly inside the Earth) and that there really was a solid "firmament" around the Earth thousands of years ago with water on the outside.

:banghead:


Oh, and welcome to the boards. :)

[atheist]

Well, she arrived at my door again today. :)

We talked about the missed meeting, and decided to leave it at a small bit of miscommunication. I had called her to confirm the invitation, but she was apparently waiting for another call from me (to confirm again?).

Anyway, she also said/did some things that I thought suspect, but I also tend to be a little paranoid at times, so it's probably best that I don't assume anything by it. She told me that the day we were supposed to meet was a bad day because her husband is away those evenings, so she has "no way to get around". Also, when she knocks at my door, she knocks very, very, quietly. (Fortunately?), I have very good hearing.

This time, the extra person she brought with her was familiar. She had brought her with before. Another nice lady with a UK-ish accent (Irish, maybe?).

We discussed my concerns again, about science, and also about the Watchtower Society and the Jehova Witness' organisation itself. I found that I was able to be a little more bold with what I was saying, being that we've become more familiar with eachother, and that I've done some research into both JW and the "science" involved.


As far as the JW who stood you up, she probably took your invitation as a challenge, or something similar. JWs don't often take part in open discussions, as you may have guessed, and they don't know diddly about evolution or science in general. But that's the strange thing. Even though they may have never read a scientific text in their life, they believe they know everything about science & evolution.

I've made it very clear that if she wants to teach me about Jehova and salvation through Jesus Christ that we will first have to find some common ground with regards to the "science" that is involved with being a JW. She can teach me what the JW god requires of me, but I'm going to teach her what science requires of scientists (and religious folk who dabble in science), what a theory is, what scientific theories are sound, why they are sound, and why the "science" JWs present is not sound.

I asked her, "If I show you why this JW psuedoscience is wrong, what will that do to your faith?" She seemed confident that she would still be a JW. She seemed to settle that she didn't (couldn't) have any control over the Watchtower Society or the JW organisation.


I also have to mention that the "Creation" book you mentioned is the only source of my fathers scientific knowledge...great.

I actually managed to counter many of the points made in that book, backing them up with the real, original research and documents some of the material was drawn from, and what the real, original conclusions were. Here (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/6040/cemisq.htm) is a very interesting URL concerning the book. I also backed up my points with other research by specific people who specialize in certain fields (like geological history and transitional fossils), some of who I've contacted directly. I read a whole bunch about frozen mammoths. :p

A few of the responses I received were similar to as follows:

"But, what is a theory, really? It's just a theory, right?"

"But there is such a diversity of life! How could all of that have happened?"

"But Jesus/The Bible teaches/says... " <-- move the goalposts here.

Anyway, I gave a short explanation about why a theory is valid (and not some sort of unsubstantiated guess work), explained how evolution accounts for diversity, and caught them in the act of avoiding my questions/points by "moving the goal posts". I noticed that they stopped making any sort of scientific claims. I also caught them on name dropping via quotes, and using bad events in history to denigrate other Christians/religions.

The discussion started turning into purely religious/spiritual one! Once that happened, I felt that I needed to express that perhaps this is what JWs should focus on, instead of falsely characterizing science. They told me that the Watchtower Society put out publications on other things like science to broaden their audience. I asked them, how could I ever take their message of Jehova and Jesus seriously if it is surrounded by articles of bad science? On that point, they were pretty much speechless.

All of this left us with pretty much nothing left to talk about. :) Oh, except for the question (while holding up the little lesson pamphlet), "Okay then... Do you really think you're ready for us to start lessons on what Jehova requires of you?" I said (again) that I'd still be interested in learning about what Jehova requires of me, but in the meantime, I'm going to teach them science.

I think that pretty much covers most of the discussion today. We'll see if she knocks even more quietly, next time. ;)

[Dragar]

Atheist, that's wonderful!

I think education and teaching these people is much better than ridiculing or agressively disparaging them. :)

I would much rather see a liberal Christian than an atheist with no knowledge of science, trying to drag us back to the dark ages. Not that I meet many atheists doing that, but you know what I mean. I value science over atheism.

Dragar

[wiploc]

A friend of mine lived in a small town when he was a kid. The JWs visited the town once a year and knocked on every door to talk and leave their literature. One year, when my friend was about eleven, his parents weren't home when the JWs came. He got to answer the door himself.

He asked them when the end of the world would be, according to the JW leaders. Then he told them about the several prior end-of-the-world predictions that the JWs had made, earlier dates that are all past now.

Apparently it shook them up. The JWs still come to his town once a year, but now they knock on every door but his.

crc

[knuckles644]

They told me that the Watchtower Society put out publications on other things like science to broaden their audience.

That's a new one to me. And the Society talks about unity...*sigh*

We'll see if she knocks even more quietly, next time.

Ah, the memories. :)

Oh, except for the question (while holding up the little lesson pamphlet), "Okay then... Do you really think you're ready for us to start lessons on what Jehova requires of you?" I said (again) that I'd still be interested in learning about what Jehova requires of me, but in the meantime, I'm going to teach them science.

Bravo! Not that science is going to make much of a difference. I mean, if she's that old those beliefs are a large part of her life. No way she's going to let them slip. Besides, everything that contradicts the Bible (no, wait the Society) comes from Satan. Yes, some of their publications suggest evolution is a satanic idea :eek:

[atheist]

Well, she returned with an article entitled Science was my Religion, as told by Kenneth Tanaka (AWAKE!, September 22, 2003).

Apparently, Tanaka touts his expertise as a scientist by mentioning his awe of science as a child, mapping the geology of Mars (starting in 1983), serving on an advisory committee for NASA to support spacecraft missions to Mars, and meeting "respected planetary scientists from many countries, universities, and research institutions".

Now, after he's identified himself as a scientist, he mentions that, like Sir Isaac Newton, he focuses on prophecies in the books of Daniel and Revelations. According to Tanaka, many prophecies have been fulfilled since Newton's day. Unfortunately, the article doesn't mention anything specific; only that these prophecies are "amazingly diverse and extensive, as well as unerring and undeniable." After that point, Tanaka immediately reveals that letting go of his belief in evolution did not come without resistance. However, the unspecified prophecies and and his discovery that "Bible statements about the physical world are entirely consistent with known facts and cannot be disproved" led Tanaka to the conclusion that the Bible as truth is the only reasonable conclusion.

In the article, Tanaka pushes the "scientific soundness", base on his "scrupulous examination" of the JW publications "Life - How did it get here? By evolution or by science?", and "Is There a Creator Who Cares about You?". After reading the first book myself, Kenneth Tanaka loses all credibility! I find it really ironic that he later on states that "As a scientist, I have no taste for credulity."

Needless to say, when she returns to my door again (she says she will in the next few weeks), I'll have a lot to say about the new literature she left with me, as well as the issues I have with Kenneth Tanaka and his fallacious views on creation, evolution, and the scientific soundness of JW publications.

I look forward to seeing her again. :cool:

I have to wonder: Do JWs run cases on lost souls like me? Does she consult with other JWs on the best approach on bringing me to salvation? :p

[Enai]

Oh my. Debating someone who relies on articles like the one you describe in your previous post must be like shooting fish in a barrel. Unfortunately, the JW probably doesn't realize her situation nor the fallaciousness of her arguments. Good luck in the upcoming talk, atheist.

Enai

[dantonac]

It has been at least 10 years since I researched the beliefs of JWs, but I recall one of their leaders (Franz) left the organization and wrote a book about how the whole thing was a sham. this is the book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0914675249/qid=1089313031/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-7726681-5994349?v=glance&s=books)

That would be a good book to pull quotes from and then reveal who it is making the claims. Good for a shock effect anyway as it is highly unlikely an active JW knows about the leadership defections. I have also found that the failed dates for the end of the world are generally not known to many of them (but since this lady is old she may remember some of them and has them neatly explained away. Thing is the Watchtower has told these people in the past to sell everything and spend the final days warning people that the end of the present world was at hand. When the world didn't end the Watchtower claimed it never stated with 100% confidence what the date would be and didn't encourage people to quit their jobs, sell their possessions and do missionary work exclusively for the last year or so. Of course those who have preserved their literature can show you where they did exactly what they claim they did not do.

Jws also make a big deal about the translation of the bible they use and how it is the only reliable one. They don't believe in doctrines like the Trinity or so the Holy Spirit is relegated to status as a "force" rather than a diety. To support this they have altered the verses describing the diety of the holy spirit.(and they have done a lot of other convienient translating as well. When their New World Translation was published, no credit was given to the translators. They said it was because the translators didn't want recognition. Eventually they were pressured into revealing the names. I believe one of them was Franz (could be wrong on the name). Anyway he was taken to court (not in the US) and during the trial he was asked if he was understood greek. He said he could read it, but not speak it or something like that. He was then shown characters of the alphabet and asked to name them and he was unable to. What this shows is that the translators didn't even know Greek so how could they have translated the NT? Of the other translators I have heard it reported none of them have any training in the biblical languages whatsoever. The NWT appears to be the KJV with inconvienient verses rewritten.

Then the Watchtower got a couple "biblical scholars" to attest to the validity of their translation. On of those scholars turned out to be an occultist which was an embarrasment to the Watchtower they don't talk about too much.

Anyway, the point is the organization is corrupt through and through and there is plenty of evidence demonstrating that from court cases to the book from one of it's leadership to it's own past writings such as the dates of the return that came and went.

You have to select the approach you wish to use, but there is nothing wrong with sugar coating a whammy now and then :)

[knuckles644]

Hmm...I didn't think that was genuine for a second...

"• This is a notification that Raymond Victor Franz is no longer a member of the Governing Body and of the Brooklyn Bethel family as of May 22, 1980."

Although it's not suprising I've never heard about it :D

Apparently it is. Suprising. Of course, any Witness caught reading that would run a very high risk of being disfellowshiped...

dantonac, I often hear of these stories, could you post a few links to perhaps a few articles concerning them?