question for staunch atheists...

[fsutrill]

Are you so sure of your belief that there is no God that you would be willing to be tortured and die for it rather than give it up? (sort of Ancient Rome in reverse, lol- "Denounce atheism or die" kind of thing.

If you are, how much would you be willing to endure to stick to those convictions?

I am really asking that innocently- not as any sort of debate opener or anything. I know that one of the Christian arguments for Jesus/the Gospels says (in defense of Jesus and the Apostles were liars in the liar/Lord/lunatic argument arena), "Why would the Apostles die those horrible deaths if it was a lie they concocted?" (to which you could argue that they didn't *know* it was a lie, but I really am not wanting to debate Christianity at this point, and am just using this for illustration purposes).

Then I wondered if there were any atheists as passionate about their "faith" (anti-faith? What do you call it? I put faith in " " bc I couldn't think of a better word) that there is *no* God.

Thank you for your time-
Respectfully,
Cheryl

[triplew00t]

Since atheism is a lack of belief, I, personally, would pay lip service to deity to survive. If, however, they made me adopt ritual and change my life around greatly, not just wanting a "yeah, I believe" then I would fight it somewhat. If all you want to know is whether I'd say "yeah, sure, your God exists" to prevent serious trouble: sure. But if I must go against my morals, or my rights as a human being to do so, then no. I would fight them tooth and nail, and gun.

Semantics don't matter to me. My personal ideas are always private. They would never know if I lie. But when it interferes with my life and my future and the future of others, I draw the line.

Tom

[Eidal]

I agree with triplew00t. If I need to lie about my belief, then I have no qualms with that.

In fact, there isn't much I wouldn't do to avoid torture.

[Rhaedas]

Whereas a believer in contrast might have trouble going against their god, especially if it would involve some afterlife torture. What would motive an atheist to not conceal his beliefs under threat of torture/death likely depends on that person, and the goal of the sacrifice.

[atheist]

If I denounce atheism, will they call me a liar and torture me anyway? If so, here's my take, a la Friedrich von Spee, on the confessions of those accused of withcraft in 17th century Germany:


Why did you not, on first entering prison, admit whatever they wanted? Why, foolish and crazy [person], did you wish to die so many times when you might have died but once? Follow my counsel, and, before undergoing all these pains, say you are guilty and die.

[Queen of Swords]

I'd say pretty much anything in order to get away from the torturers and then do whatever I could to take them down. There's not a whole lot I can do to repay them while I'm either in their power or dead.

[xsquid]

There are plenty here who think that hypothetical "denounce atheism or die" position is exactly where we may be in the USA in a generation or so. But don't forget--it's not my position that "there is no God", but "I don't believe there is a God".
Of course no loving Christian/Muslim/other torturer will want to split hairs like that, not when he can split heretics instead! But to answer your question: no, I would not renounce my disbelief. If I have to be brought to a knowledge of God through the rack, they can kiss my ass.

If no one else has said it, I'll be the first. Welcome, fsutrill! Consider this place to be like sandpaper; you can bloody your fingers or sharpen your wits here. The choice is yours.

[Herakles]

Are you so sure of your belief that there is no God that you would be willing to be tortured and die for it rather than give it up? (sort of Ancient Rome in reverse, lol- "Denounce atheism or die" kind of thing.

This question is misguided. You see, for a lot of people an increasing surety of their beliefs does not indicate an increasing willlingness to die for them. To do that, you would have to have some type of motivation. Some Christians, for example, believe that if they renounce their religion that they go to hell. That would be a pretty strong motivation to stay true to what you believe even if your faith was not that strong.

An atheist however, really does not have that type of motivation, no matter how strongly he believes that God doen't exist. In fact, since atheists believe that there is no afterlife, and that this is the only chance we get, there would be a strong motivation against renouncing his beliefs.

[graymouser]

Given that we're atheists, why the hell not? I mean, if it were Roman times and I was told, "Throw this incense on the fire in recognition that Sol Invictus is the true God or we beat you up and take your possessions,"** I'd say, "Give me the incense already." If it were in the era of the power of the Church and they said, "Recognize Christ as Lord or we burn you at the stake," I'd get down on my knees and start reciting pater nosters. If it were a Muslim theocracy, and I were told that I had better recognize Allah as God or die, I'd recite "Allah is God and Mohammed is his prophet" as quickly as you could tell me how. It's my life, which I believe is all I've got.

**The official religious gestures of the Roman Empire were a symbol of allegiance to the Empire. The only gesture that was ever enforced strongly was that of tossing a handful of incense on the fire. Decius and Diocletian (and Galerius, who continued Diocletian's policy) were the only Emperors who ever actively persecuted Christianity, though in general Christians were disapproved of because they refused to show their allegiance to Rome by this token action. Decius' persecution only lasted 3 years in his reign and was taken because he felt that Christianity was dividing his Empire; even under Diocletian's persecution, the persecuted were frequently tortured (maybe 2000 were executed), but it was far more damaging that they lost all property rights.

Christianity has given far, far worse than it actually got.

-Wayne

[fsutrill]

Originally posted by Herakles
This question is misguided. You see, for a lot of people an increasing surety of their beliefs does not indicate an increasing willlingness to die for them. To do that, you would have to have some type of motivation. Some Christians, for example, believe that if they renounce their religion that they go to hell. That would be a pretty strong motivation to stay true to what you believe even if your faith was not that strong.

An atheist however, really does not have that type of motivation, no matter how strongly he believes that God doen't exist. In fact, since atheists believe that there is no afterlife, and that this is the only chance we get, there would be a strong motivation against renouncing his beliefs. [/B]

So the passion of believing that all these people are wrong- just as passionately as they believe they are right- does not make you want to "deconvert" them?

[Jade]

Originally posted by fsutrill
So the passion of believing that all these people are wrong- just as passionately as they believe they are right- does not make you want to "deconvert" them?

The torture-chamber/"convert or die a horrible death, infidel!!!" context is not the best in which to attempt a deconversion; even if that IS your goal...

[fsutrill]

Originally posted by xsquid
If no one else has said it, I'll be the first. Welcome, fsutrill! Consider this place to be like sandpaper; you can bloody your fingers or sharpen your wits here. The choice is yours.

Thanks! I have no desire to bloody my fingers, this group is way too sharp for that.

As far as what I believe, I believe that it's really sad that *people* throughout history have distorted the essence/message of Christianity (through the likes of the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc- "bad" Christians- nutjobs, really, IMO) so badly that the picture of Christianity presented through *those* venues is indeed quite unattractive (to say the least) and not even true to the message.

I read someone earlier today who posted here on the "Why are you an atheist" thread that the reason he/she was an atheist was that he/she had been treated better by atheists than Christians (maybe they used the word theist- don't recall exactly). I think of all the reasons to become an atheist, that is the poorest, and kind of a cop out- I'd take logic/reason anyday over someone saying, "Bob Christian [or insert name/people group/event in Christian history] was a real butthead, therefore I won't believe in God". Anyway, that's off topic from my original question. :-)

[Rhaedas]

I wouldn't call it passion. Not to paint a broad stroke, but I think most atheists could care less if theists continue to believe whatever they wish, as long as it doesn't cross lines that violate our security and freedom. Sure, we'd like for them to see the world the way we do, it would probably help in many ways, but you cannot make someone deconvert, you can only lead them to the facts they may be overlooking. What they do with that info is their decision. Some will never see out of religion's veil, and if it works for them, so be it.

[fsutrill]

Originally posted by Jade
The torture-chamber/"convert or die a horrible death, infidel!!!" context is not the best in which to attempt a deconversion; even if that IS your goal...

excellent point!! I don't bullying is profitable in ANY venue, no matter what the goal.

[Rhaedas]

Originally posted by fsutrill
I read someone earlier today who posted here on the "Why are you an atheist" thread that the reason he/she was an atheist was that he/she had been treated better by atheists than Christians (maybe they used the word theist- don't recall exactly). I think of all the reasons to become an atheist, that is the poorest, and kind of a cop out

I think by itself it's weak, but it's probably a contributor, especially if that treatment comes from asking hard questions about the religion that aren't supposed to be asked. Actually, I've seen theists use that in trying to witness here a lot. It seems to be a common assumption that the only thing that could drive someone away from religion is if they were somehow hurt in their previous religious group. It's never assumed that it was the religion itself.

[Rhea]

Originally posted by fsutrill
I read someone earlier today who posted here on the "Why are you an atheist" thread that the reason he/she was an atheist was that he/she had been treated better by atheists than Christians (maybe they used the word theist- don't recall exactly). I think of all the reasons to become an atheist, that is the poorest, and kind of a cop out-

For the record: The person who wrote that is not an Atheist.

She is a Christian who was at the time suffering some instability from a mental condition. (Haven't seen her in a while - hope she's okay!). But while she was going through these changes, her church was rather intolerant of her. I was delighted to see her reach a stable place and she has been a steady member of this board for a long time, but she was really a Christian throughout. Her answer appeared to be more of an answer to who she wanted to hang out with.


...

I agree with others that without the threat of hell there is not much point in dying for the label of Atheism. But that I would indeed fight hard to preserve human rights. Remembering all the while that, as an atheist, I would feel it necessary to survive in order to fight, in most cases.

[mjbeam]

Originally posted by fsutrill
Are you so sure of your belief that there is no God that you would be willing to be tortured and die for it rather than give it up? (sort of Ancient Rome in reverse, lol- "Denounce atheism or die" kind of thing.

If you are, how much would you be willing to endure to stick to those convictions?

I am really asking that innocently- not as any sort of debate opener or anything. I know that one of the Christian arguments for Jesus/the Gospels says (in defense of Jesus and the Apostles were liars in the liar/Lord/lunatic argument arena), "Why would the Apostles die those horrible deaths if it was a lie they concocted?" (to which you could argue that they didn't *know* it was a lie, but I really am not wanting to debate Christianity at this point, and am just using this for illustration purposes).

Then I wondered if there were any atheists as passionate about their "faith" (anti-faith? What do you call it? I put faith in " " bc I couldn't think of a better word) that there is *no* God.

Thank you for your time-
Respectfully,
Cheryl
First of all Athiests don't have conviction, they have a lack of belief. For me, there is not enough evidence to support belief in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or Bigfoot...or Jesus. Denouncing a lack of belief doesn't make any sense.

If the government threatened me with death if I refused to say that I believe in god would I then say that I believed in god? Sure I would. Then bad things would start happening to those officials who threatened me with death.

Your question really doesn't make any sense.


-Mike

[Howard]

Just as it might be said that, in general, people do not willingly submit to torture or die for their lack of belief, neither to they torture or kill for it.

[Contramontanum]

Originally posted by Herakles
In fact, since atheists believe that there is no afterlife, and that this is the only chance we get, there would be a strong motivation against renouncing his beliefs.
I agree with most of the posters here in that I would pretty much do anything to avoid torture, but I don't see why being an atheist exculdes me from believing in an afterlife.

[Herakles]

Originally posted by Contramontanum
I agree with most of the posters here in that I would pretty much do anything to avoid torture, but I don't see why being an atheist exculdes me from believing in an afterlife.

I probably should have said most atheists do not believe in an afterlife. After all, atheism simply means a lack of belief in a god. But, generally speaking, atheists also lack a belief in the supernatural and afterlifes. A lack of clarification on my part I guess.

[NeverByte]

Primary goal: Survive.

Therefore, lie cheat & BS my way out of any difficulties, pack my gear, and bugger off to somewhere not so full of lunatic fundamentalists.

[Tom Sawyer]

One big thing about being an atheist is that there is absolutely no advantage to being a martyr. Muslims get their 72 virgins, Christians get to spend eternity with their loving God, but we get nothing. In order to fight for what we believe in (or don't believe in, as the case may be) we actually have to be alive. While there are many cases of people over the centuries who have been executed because they refused to deny their lack of faith, I really can't see myself being one of them. There's nothing in it for me and I'd be able to do more good by staying alive.

Another thing is that while faith in God is a major part of the lives of many Christians, lack of faith in God is an irrelevant part of the lives of many atheists - it's just not important enough to die for. If someone pointed a gun to your head and told you to believe in Santa Claus or die, would you tell him that you believe there's a magic elf that hands out presents to kids every Christmas, or would you be willing to die to stand up for your lack of belief in children's fairy tales? That's pretty much how I view your question about being willing to die for atheism.

[Eudaimonist]

Originally posted by fsutrill
Are you so sure of your belief that there is no God that you would be willing to be tortured and die for it rather than give it up?

I would have to be killed or tortured to insanity before I gave up my lack of belief, since no amount of intimidation would actually persuade me that I was wrong. But I guess you mean: "Would you pretend not to be an atheist if you were threatened with torture for openly being an atheist?"

Yes! Gladly! It would be the right thing to do. Why would I owe honesty to the Big Father theocracy?

Let me put it this way. If I was living in Germany during WWII, and I was hiding Jews in my basement, would I owe honesty to the Nazi soldiers who wanted to search my house?

[Heurismus]

I know exactly what God is; having discovered that, I am free as a bird to live out my days, and explore the wonder of Nature's ways. Sorry, Christian you have still a million miles to walk. Peace and Love, Heurismus.

[Worldtraveller]

I have to agree with most here, and a lot of it is very situational.
I would pretend to be a theist of whatever flavor for as long as it took to get away and begin to make thier lives a living hell (pun intended).
The only thing that would restrain me from the latter would be protecting my family.
Otherwise, I would fight tooth, nail, full automatic weapons, mines, bombs and all, for my right to be free to believe, or not believe, what I want.

Cheers,
Lane

[Corona688]

Originally posted by fsutrill
Are you so sure of your belief that there is no God that you would be willing to be tortured and die for it rather than give it up? (sort of Ancient Rome in reverse, lol- "Denounce atheism or die" kind of thing. There is no anti-god that will torture me for eternity should I not obey my firm conviction that no god exists under threat of torture or death. And the consequences of torture or death far outweigh the moral consequences of telling a lie. The only person that my convictions really matter to, when it comes down to it, is me; and my convictions won't help me during torture, or after death.

Ergo, if someone were to put a gun to my head and tell me 'say that you believe in god or die', I would tell him I believe in god.

If not threatened with physical violence, however, I will be quite staunch in my beliefs.

Then I wondered if there were any atheists as passionate about their "faith" (anti-faith? What do you call it? I put faith in " " bc I couldn't think of a better word) that there is *no* God. Let me put it this way. Do you have faith that leprechauns do not exist? What about hippopotami on Jupiter? No 'faith' is needed to understand that you have not observed or seen evidence for such things. For an atheist, god is in the same category.

[brighid]

I am really asking that innocently- not as any sort of debate opener or anything. I know that one of the Christian arguments for Jesus/the Gospels says (in defense of Jesus and the Apostles were liars in the liar/Lord/lunatic argument arena), "Why would the Apostles die those horrible deaths if it was a lie they concocted?" (to which you could argue that they didn't *know* it was a lie, but I really am not wanting to debate Christianity at this point, and am just using this for illustration purposes

Why did the WTC suicide bombers die and kill thousands for their "belief"? Do you think THEY concocted a lie? No. Do you think people who staunchly believe they have been abducted by aliens and used as test subject have concocted a deliberate lie?

The "why would the Apostles die" question is an old one that has been asked and answered here before. They died because they strongly believed in something, or they simply had no choice and were killed by mobs, authorities, etc.

I don't think they were liars. I think they honestly believed what they said. However, this does not make what they believed in TRUE. Just as the WTC murderers believed they were doing a "good" thing for Allah and they will be rewarded with 72 dark eyed virgins in Paradise ... this is no more "true" than any other religious mythological belief in reward for killing, etc.

People believe all sorts of absurd things. Why did people follow Jim Jones to their death in some remote part of Africa? Why did the Manson Family members murder innocent people as directed by a charismatic, albeit absolutely insane man? Why did people follow David Koresh? Why do people believe that George W. Bush is a "good leader"? Why have people believed that taking a photograph of a person could "capture" their soul (literally, not figuratively)?

Have you ever believed something to be absolutely true, only later to find evidence that you were wrong? (Perhaps believed something a loved one or friend told you, but later discovered they had been lieing?)

The truth of a claim is not dependent on whether anyone believes it to be true. Evidence proves truth, not belief. People believe all sorts of wierd things, and somethings like religion, people have a deep emotional and social investment to continue to "believe." We want to believe, and instead of allowing the evidence to formulate a truth many people formulate a truth and then pick and chose piece of "evidence" to support that "truth" claim, specifically ignoring other pieces that invalidate or call into question that claim.

The Apostles lived during a time where people believe the Messiah would come. They gave up their families, businesses and homes to follow a charismatic, passionate, rebellious man that made grandiose promises about God. They were deeply emotionally invested in "believing" and the stories about the Apostles have likely been crafted to pump up the mythology surrounding Christ and his Apostles.

Maybe they were lunatics. It sure sounds crazy to give up your family, life, etc. and follow a strange man into the dessert to preach about the coming of the Lord. Imagine someone today claiming to be the Messiah, telling everyone HE IS THE SON OF GOD (and that God speaks to him), to give up all your worldly possessions, follow him, because the Kingdom of God is now ... and soon God will wipe out the inhabitants of the Earth and create a new Kingdom ... (watch the Last Temptation of Christ if you haven't) and tell my you wouldn't think this man a lunatic who needed psychiatric care?

Brighid

Brighid

[Howard]

I’ve never understood this Christian obsession with extreme suffering and agonizing death. It seems like a very un-Christian deity who would demand such a sacrifice for what is, for most people, very mundane sins.

IMO, it’s pretty damn sick.

[Nick the Dick]

My comment is both general and directed to Fsutrill.

Your comment:

As far as what I believe, I believe that it's really sad that *people* throughout history have distorted the essence/message of Christianity (through the likes of the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc- "bad" Christians- nutjobs, really, IMO) so badly that the picture of Christianity presented through *those* venues is indeed quite unattractive (to say the least) and not even true to the message.

Speaks volumes to the mindset of Christians. I find that the only legitimate way to perceive others is to gauge their actions, not their intentions.
You cannot say that the Inquisition, Crusades, burning of witches, and countless other horrors are not “legitimate� Christians. Those actions defined Christianity for most of its existence, just as the Christianity of today has to come to terms with pedophile priests and money hungry televangelists. If Christianity is the supreme moral system, how does it produce such immoral horrors? Why do Christian groups decry sex and violence and then urge people to see a violent, r-rated movie, The Passion? Christianity is not a moral system; it is a system of superstition and control.
Christianity in its essence is seeks to impose its will on others, and does so according to its strength.
In the dark ages the church was all-powerful, hence the burning of witches, and torture of heretics. As church influence wanes, we see less imposition of the church on societies members. The Puritans used to hang Quakers in Boston Common, neglecting church attendance was illegal, now some States disallow the sale of liquor on Sunday, among other blue laws.

[Biff the unclean]

Originally posted by fsutrill
As far as what I believe, I believe that it's really sad that *people* throughout history have distorted the essence/message of Christianity (through the likes of the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc- "bad" Christians- nutjobs, really, IMO) so badly that the picture of Christianity presented through *those* venues is indeed quite unattractive (to say the least) and not even true to the message.


If you would take a fresh look at Christianity you'll notice that the distorted message of Christianity is the one you hold. It's a fairly recent distortion too.
The historic Christians, from the birth of the Church till the late 18th century, the true Christians, are the ones you find so unpleasant

[Freodin]

To the OP:

Even if I dislike the cold-hearted economical approach - this is one of the situation where this is the most easy way to explain my point of view.

What do I gain - what do I loose?

Offered with the choice "accept our God or be killed/tortured", I have nothing to loose by accepting - as others have explained, there is no Anti-God to punish you for denying him.
I gain freedom from pain and the rest of my life.

So it should be an easy decision.

This example changes if you had something to loose - say, if the offer was "accept our God by sacrificing your child or be killed/tortured".

[Godless Wonder]

Freodin, do you mean to say that you'd actually change your beliefs arbitrarily under duress, or that you change what you'd say your beliefs are under duress (that is, lie about what your real beliefs are.)

What you are describing is Pascal's wager, which can provide motivation for believing, but provides nothing in the way of evidence Without evidence, most people aren't willing to just believe any old arbitrary thing.

If someone puts a gun to your head and says "Believe in leprechauns or die!", you may say, "ok, ok, I believe in leprechauns!" but that doesn't mean you really do believe in them, and a gun to your head isn't any reason to start believing in them.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by atheist
If I denounce atheism, will they call me a liar and torture me anyway? If so, here's my take, a la Friedrich von Spee, on the confessions of those accused of withcraft in 17th century Germany:

Why did you not, on first entering prison, admit whatever they wanted? Why, foolish and crazy [person], did you wish to die so many times when you might have died but once? Follow my counsel, and, before undergoing all these pains, say you are guilty and die.

I could see that in their case, they were probably believers (in Xianity), and thought that lying and admitting to the heresy without persuasion would itself result in eternal torment.

[Freodin]

Originally posted by Godless Wonder
Freodin, do you mean to say that you'd actually change your beliefs arbitrarily under duress, or that you change what you'd say your beliefs are under duress (that is, lie about what your real beliefs are.)

What you are describing is Pascal's wager, which can provide motivation for believing, but provides nothing in the way of evidence Without evidence, most people aren't willing to just believe any old arbitrary thing.

If someone puts a gun to your head and says "Believe in leprechauns or die!", you may say, "ok, ok, I believe in leprechauns!" but that doesn't mean you really do believe in them, and a gun to your head isn't any reason to start believing in them.

Of course I would not change my beliefs - Ã? hold the position that I cannot deliberately change my beliefs, willing or not. So, basically, yes, I would be lying.

Question is simply: what would I be willing to lie for? What if lying is not enough (as is: sacrifice your child to show you really accept our God)?

[Mageth]

As for the question of the OP, I admit that I might well say whatever God is in question exists, and follow along as a "good theist" to escape torture. However, if in doing so would require me to support torture, or any other such inhumane practice, in the name of their god, I think I would refuse to confess, and thus might well end up on the rack anyway.

Thus, if I knew others were, or were going to be, tortured in the name of that religion, I would perhaps submit to the torture rather than implicitly condoning the torture.

Now, if my family, i.e. my wife and son, were threatened with torture or death if I did not "confess", I might be persuaded to confess regardless of what was being done to others.

Not an easy ethical question to answer in the hypothetical, in any case. Hopefully, it never comes to that. And if it does, I'd seriously try to go somewhere where the Torquemadas were not, and could not reach me, if I could.

[atheist]

Originally posted by Mageth (on Friedrich von Spee)
I could see that in their case, they were probably believers (in Xianity), and thought that lying and admitting to the heresy without persuasion would itself result in eternal torment.

Also, something that I note as important, is that the plea of the accused meant nothing. Once accused, torture and death was inevitable.

I wonder: If things become so bad that I would be severly persecuted for my (lack of) beliefs - even if I somehow managed to honestly convert to whatever beliefs were being forced on me - I would be marked as a 'lying atheist' and tortured for it regardless.


Unlike religion, the freedom to think cannot be forced on anyone.

(edited for better phrasing)

[Starboy]

Originally posted by fsutrill
Then I wondered if there were any atheists as passionate about their "faith" (anti-faith? What do you call it? I put faith in " " bc I couldn't think of a better word) that there is *no* God.

Thank you for your time-
Respectfully,
Cheryl

I’m a a-theist, a person that lacks a belief in god(s). Asking me if I would die for atheism is like asking if I would dye my hair if I were bald. It is non-sense. I am glad that you are asking questions of actual atheists instead of relying on the BS that is so often doled out by religion. A word of advice, forget everything you have been taught about atheists and atheism. Also a word of warning, if you ask questions in a genuine spirit to learn you will be greatly rewarded, however if your questions contain any uncharitable biases, such as a desire to not accept us as we are and try to convert us to your view of reality, or trying to frighten us with the boogie man, or convince us that we are somehow defective and so forth, you will not be treated well. Do not think for one moment that you might be the first Christian to visit this site spewing such trash. Also the vast majority of atheists are former theists, many of which were very informed and experienced in their past religion, so they are more than familiar with just about any argument that you might think was convincing. Also another warning, it can be a severe shock to theists when they discover that just about everything that they hold as real in regards to their religion is almost completely discounted by atheists. Just get over it. Constantly repeating the same mantra of supernatural existence will only make your experience worse. Otherwise this is a great site with a lot of very knowledgeable people. Have fun.

Starboy

[Sparrow]

I think you could get me to say almost anything in order to stop my torture. But I don't think there's any amount of torture you can do to get me to believe something different.

I suppose it's possible to torture a believer (in a god of mercy) enough that the believer gives up hope that his god will save him from the torture. Let me be clear that I am not proposing any tests of this sort, Of course it is possible that a believer might see death as and expression of mercy.

Of course I'll happily believe in a god if you could provide some repeatable, undeniable evidence . . .

[starling]

The trick with atheism is, even the most firm, stalwart believers in atheism who under pain of torture won't consider believing in any god, or pink unicorn, would still be able to feign sincerity when threatened into following some religion or another. Because atheism is lack of any supernatural moral authority, to them saying they believe in a god has literally no punishment; not in any sacred text of atheism does it say stay true to your beliefs. Following a religion under duress would surely be a waste of an atheist's precious (and only) life, and it also might make other people who are fighting the religious authority think they're alone and isolated, since all who would join them are busy pretending to be Christian. Other than that, there's really no reason an atheist shouldn't follow a religion, and gleefully exploit the social machinery that supports it for their own personal gain, and/or to help their earthly community.


Starling

[Starboy]

Originally posted by starling
Other than that, there's really no reason an atheist shouldn't follow a religion, and gleefully exploit the social machinery that supports it for their own personal gain, and/or to help their earthly community.


Starling

I suspect that a great number of so called theists do exactly that.

Starboy

[Dark Jedi]

Loon: "Admit you believe in the Easter bunny, or I will torture you!"

Me: "Ok, I believe in the Easter Bunny." <shrug>

No difference.

[Jayjay]

Originally posted by fsutrill
[B]Are you so sure of your belief that there is no God that you would be willing to be tortured and die for it rather than give it up? (sort of Ancient Rome in reverse, lol- "Denounce atheism or die" kind of thing.No. I'd have no problem whatsoever lying to a religionist who's about to torture and murder me. Besides, knowing the mindset of major religions, they quite likely wouldn't believe my conversion and would torture me anyway until I admit that I wasn't entirely truthful. Then they'd torture me until I go insane and really start believing their brainwashing. Then they'd kill me.

[mjbeam]

Originally posted by Jayjay
No. I'd have no problem whatsoever lying to a religionist who's about to torture and murder me. Besides, knowing the mindset of major religions, they quite likely wouldn't believe my conversion and would torture me anyway until I admit that I wasn't entirely truthful. Then they'd torture me until I go insane and really start believing their brainwashing. Then they'd kill me.
You just don't understand god's love. I guess you'd rather be alive than redeemed. You poor godless heathen.


-Mike

[atheist]

Originally posted by mjbeam
You just don't understand god's love. I guess you'd rather be alive than redeemed. You poor godless heathen.


-Mike

"You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you."
- Mother Teresa

[Angrillori]

Here's the thing, consequences.


The more strongly I believe there is no god or afterlife, no atheist fairy punishing those who believe in a god, then the more likely I will be to lie and say, "Sure I believe in gibblefritz the destroyer." I mean, there's no reason not to, and obvious reasons (not being tortured) to do so.

OTOH, if I were a believer in gibblefritz the destroyer, and gibblefritz's doctrine said he would torture me FAR more than any human could if I denounced his name, then there ARE reasons to stick to my guns. In this case, you could compare the sincerity of my belief to the amount of torture I would accept.

SO, if someone is trying to argue that an atheists position is not as strong because people will renounce it upon torture, then they've got it all backwards. The stronger an atheist's belief, the more likely they are to profess a belief to save their skin--we know this skin is quite literally all we've got.

Of course, once out of the claws of the torturers, I believe atheists will, and I certainly would, fight tooth and nail to protect my freedom. If we in the US start amending our constitution to become a judeo-christian theocracy, you better believe I'll be cleaning my deer-rifle.

[Opera Nut]

As far as what I believe, I believe that it's really sad that *people* throughout history have distorted the essence/message of Christianity (through the likes of the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc- "bad" Christians- nutjobs, really, IMO) so badly that the picture of Christianity presented through *those* venues is indeed quite unattractive (to say the least) and not even true to the message.

You haven't read the message lately, have you??

Just a few quotes:
Exodus 22:18 - Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Ex. 22:20, Ex. 31:14, Lev. 10:1-2, Lev. 18:22, Lev. 20:13, Lev. 20:27, Lev. 24:16, Lev. 24:23

Matthew 3:10, 12.
Matthew 5:17, Matt. 5:29-30, Matt. 7:13-14, Matt 10:21(I come not in peace but with a sword, .....), Mat. 10:28, Matt 11:20-24,
Matt. 25:46 - Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever.
Mark 3:29- The unforgivable sin is 'blasphemy against the Holy Ghost".
Mark 16:16,
Luke 1:20, 3: 9, 3:17,

I could go on and on and on, but I'm tired of typing. You really think the message of Christianity is one of love? Have you read your bible lately?

The message of Christianity is hate, revenge, and eternal damnation for everyone. You (the generic person) are commanded to beat your children and kill your son if he disobeys you, kill heathens, and generally live in an orgy of murderous rage. You are ordered to leave your family and follow Jesus. As well as the fact that god is a psychotic unpredictable mass murderer. You have free will to love god or not, but if you don't love the Christian god, you're sentenced to eternal damnation and suffering.

You also have a rap sheet just for breathing, according to god. You didn't do anything bad, but you get blamed for Adam and Eve's supposed sins. And god's will is always right. You may pray to influence god's will, but if your prayers are not answered, then that means god isn't letting you interfere with predestination, since he knows what's gonna happen before it happens, and he knows who's going to heaven and who's gonna fry in hell, ahead of time, so all your efforts to be good are naught. You are screwed, no matter what you do.

Christianity has been accurately represented by the maniacs, persecutors and torturers throughout the centuries. They burned Giordano Bruno at the stake for suggesting the earth revolved around the sun. They put Johannes Kepler's mother in jail for seven years, alleging that she was a witch. They tried and tortured and executed thousands upon thousands of men and women and children for being heretics and infidels and witches. They forcibly converted Jews, Muslims and other people who were living peaceably. Catholics barbecued Protestants at the stake. Protestants barbecued Catholics at the stake. And John Calvin barbecued the first Unitarian Universalist, Michael Servetus, on green wood at the stake, to maximize the suffering. Martin Luther said that the heart of the Jew is darker than the blackest night.

You really think you're gonna scare us with that lie, the one that says Christianity is about love and salvation, when we can see the truth of Christianity? The truth of death-worship, gore, blood obsession, circumcision obsession, torture by crucifixion, etal.?

Christianity is all about control through intimidation, fear, and conformity. Christianity is all about psychological abuse. If Christianity made people better, then the former Christians here would not have fled from their trash talking clothed as "Christian love".

Sorry, it doesn't work here.

[southernhybrid]

I would never be a martyr for any cause. When I was a born again Xian, I would have pretended to give up my faith to save my life or avoid torture, and as an atheist I could easily pretend to be a theist to avoid torture and save my life.

Even when I was a Xian, I believed that god would forgive me for sinning so at worst I would get a little slap on the wrist in heaven if I pretended to give up my faith. The all knowing god would know that I was lying to save my ass, and that I was just too weak to be tortured for him.

As an atheist I have even less to lose and everything to gain if I had to recant my unfaith. ;)

[Gawen]

As an athesist, I would lie my ass off. Then join up with World Traveler and Angrilori....and right this wrong.

[MsChutzpah]

Quote:
"If we in the US start amending our constitution to become a judeo-christian theocracy, you better believe I'll be cleaning my deer-rifle."

:notworthy

Angrillori, I'll be right there beside you !

[fsutrill]

Originally posted by Starboy
I’m a a-theist, a person that lacks a belief in god(s). Asking me if I would die for atheism is like asking if I would dye my hair if I were bald. It is non-sense. I am glad that you are asking questions of actual atheists instead of relying on the BS that is so often doled out by religion. A word of advice, forget everything you have been taught about atheists and atheism. Also a word of warning, if you ask questions in a genuine spirit to learn you will be greatly rewarded, however if your questions contain any uncharitable biases, such as a desire to not accept us as we are and try to convert us to your view of reality, or trying to frighten us with the boogie man, or convince us that we are somehow defective and so forth, you will not be treated well. Do not think for one moment that you might be the first Christian to visit this site spewing such trash. Also the vast majority of atheists are former theists, many of which were very informed and experienced in their past religion, so they are more than familiar with just about any argument that you might think was convincing. Also another warning, it can be a severe shock to theists when they discover that just about everything that they hold as real in regards to their religion is almost completely discounted by atheists. Just get over it. Constantly repeating the same mantra of supernatural existence will only make your experience worse. Otherwise this is a great site with a lot of very knowledgeable people. Have fun.

Starboy

eek. No, I really just want to understand where you guys are coming from, that's all...

**backing away slowly**

[mjbeam]

Originally posted by fsutrill
eek. No, I really just want to understand where you guys are coming from, that's all...

**backing away slowly**
We are coming from a similar place that you would be coming from if you moved to Saudi Arabia.


-Mike

[Starboy]

Originally posted by fsutrill
eek. No, I really just want to understand where you guys are coming from, that's all...

**backing away slowly**

How typical. Like I said, if you are willing to accept us as we are and wish to learn about atheists you will be greatly rewarded, however if you are just another Christian asshole then you will have a rough time of it.

Starboy

[fsutrill]

Originally posted by Starboy
How typical. Like I said, if you are willing to accept us as we are and wish to learn about atheists you will be greatly rewarded, however if you are just another Christian asshole then you will have a rough time of it.

Starboy

How typical?

See, I really don't know where the hostility is coming from towards me. I have done *no* prosyletizing or trying to convince anyone of anything. I haven't pulled a bait and switch or condemned anyone. I stated my belief, after asking a question. I wasn't belittling anyone who didn't believe it, or calling people names, or making sweeping generalizations about people...

Quite frankly I can understand why people around here *would* be a little edgy and prone towards being defensive- I can only imagine the hostility and crap that has probably been shown here. I can only assure you that my reason for participation is just to see where you guys are coming from.

It never occurred to me that atheism is simply a lack of belief and not a sort of "religion" unto itself where its adherents would try to convince those around them that *they* were wrong, just as missionaries from all other religions do.

[Postcard73]

Originally posted by fsutrill
eek. No, I really just want to understand where you guys are coming from, that's all... Hey fsutrill- welcome to the IIDB. If you really just want to understand where we're coming from, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about here. Starboy was simply noting that a lot of Chrsitians come to these boards thinking they can mention a couple simple, basic apologetic arguments and lead us all into the fold (I don't know where he was going with the "how typical" comment). This happens a lot, and the apologetic arguments used are so common, that many of the veteran users here have seen them over and over. As a result, the level of patience exhibited toward preaching is pretty low. Despite this, there are quite a few theists on these boards including some that have been here for a long time...

In addition to the fora which are loaded with info, you can also check out the SecWeb Library (http://www.infidels.org/library/index.shtml).

[Starboy]

Originally posted by fsutrill
How typical?

See, I really don't know where the hostility is coming from towards me. I have done *no* prosyletizing or trying to convince anyone of anything. I haven't pulled a bait and switch or condemned anyone. I stated my belief, after asking a question. I wasn't belittling anyone who didn't believe it, or calling people names, or making sweeping generalizations about people...

Quite frankly I can understand why people around here *would* be a little edgy and prone towards being defensive- I can only imagine the hostility and crap that has probably been shown here. I can only assure you that my reason for participation is just to see where you guys are coming from.

It never occurred to me that atheism is simply a lack of belief and not a sort of "religion" unto itself where its adherents would try to convince those around them that *they* were wrong, just as missionaries from all other religions do.

Sorry if you took my original post the wrong way and sorry if I took your response the wrong way. FWIW, you seem to be an atypical theist. Most Christians that come here are usually on some sort of a crusade. I suppose it is to be expected since the bible fills their minds with all sorts or crazy ideas regarding athiest. In any case as you probably are aware by now, the only thing that unites atheists is their lack of belief, otherwise they are a very diverse group. If it weren't for the intense pressure being applied by theists to impose their religion on all aspects of society I doubt this web site would exist. It appears that the times demand that theists be educated about a secular freedom based societies. Again sorry if we took each other the wrong way.

Starboy

[fsutrill]

Originally posted by Angrillori
Here's the thing, consequences.


OTOH, if I were a believer in gibblefritz the destroyer, and gibblefritz's doctrine said he would torture me FAR more than any human could if I denounced his name, then there ARE reasons to stick to my guns. In this case, you could compare the sincerity of my belief to the amount of torture I would accept.


I haven't read *all* the Christian martyrs' stories throughout history, but I can't recall of any who faced their death/torture/whatever and refused to renounce their religion due to fear of punishment in the afterlife- the motivation seems to be more one of loyalty/devotion, not the simple wanting to avoid something after death.

This conversation got me thinking- I mean, you're in pain, worse than you've ever been in, and all you have to do is renounce your faith to make the pain stop... I would like to think I would be strong but I am really a wuss, lol...who knows what would happen?

So is it just the "Christian" God that atheists don't believe exists, or all "higher power" types (Shiva, Vishnu, Allah, etc etc)?

What about "evil forces" (Satan, demons, things like that) in the world? Do atheists believe those exist, or do they fall in the same category as God (or gods, whichever....)?

[fsutrill]

Originally posted by Starboy
Sorry if you took my original post the wrong way and sorry if I took your response the wrong way. FWIW, you seem to be an atypical theist. Most Christians that come here are usually on some sort of a crusade. I suppose it is to be expected since the bible fills their minds with all sorts or crazy ideas regarding athiest. In any case as you probably are aware by now, the only thing that unites atheists is their lack of belief, otherwise they are a very diverse group. If it weren't for the intense pressure being applied by theists to impose their religion on all aspects of society I doubt this web site would exist. It appears that the times demand that theists be educated about a secular freedom based societies. Again sorry if we took each other the wrong way.

Starboy

Do most atheists label themselves "secular humanists" then? I just have so many questions....

No problem about the misunderstanding- like I said, I can understand where patience would be a little thin.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by fsutrill
Do most atheists label themselves "secular humanists" then? I just have so many questions....

No problem about the misunderstanding- like I said, I can understand where patience would be a little thin.

I don't know what most atheists as a group would label themselves as. I don't know of any statistics regarding atheists in particular. I would say that a good portion would reject the supernatural of any kind but there are those that may not believe in a god but still might be very mystical. I myself discount the supernatural. I don't see it as a phenomenon per se but as an explanation. Science has given us much better explanations these days.

Starboy

[JoeNothin]

Before I read any other answers to the OP, I just wanted to post my reply.

THEM: "Accept Jesus as your personal savior, or we will torture you and, ultimately kill you."

ME: "WTF"

THEM: "Ok. Is that yourl answer?"

ME: "Praise Jesus!!!"

[ccolinh]

Originally posted by fsutrill

So is it just the "Christian" God that atheists don't believe exists, or all "higher power" types (Shiva, Vishnu, Allah, etc etc)?

What about "evil forces" (Satan, demons, things like that) in the world? Do atheists believe those exist, or do they fall in the same category as God (or gods, whichever....)?

agnosticism - unable (unwilling) to decide on the existance or non-existance of any God (not just the christian one) base on the current evidence

weak atheism - the position that since there is no evidence for gods of any type there is no reason to belive in any of them

strong atheism - the position that gods (of any type) are an impossibility

I fall into the weak athiest catagory (although I really dont like the label "weak" but it is the most common way to describe the position I hold)

also, fellow atheists, I am new at this so please make sure to let me know if my definitions are in order

Chad

[Gothic_J]

you know, Im so fucking stubborn, I prolly would martyr myself.

:eek:

Ive never been able to hold the bile down when it came to christianty.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by fsutrill
So is it just the "Christian" God that atheists don't believe exists, or all "higher power" types (Shiva, Vishnu, Allah, etc etc)?

[edit of mean comment.. -Krosis GRD mod]

Let me set the record straight. We are all atheists here. You as well as us. The only difference is that you lack belief in one fewer god than we do.

To be able to successfully argue with and understand atheists is the simplest thing in the world. Follow this simple procedure, and you will never go wrong:

Before posting any argument, idea, or claim, replace the word "God" with the word "Zeus." Then see if your post still makes sense.

Chances are, you will find that when you replace God with Zeus, your own arguments become objectionable and uncompelling to you. When you figure out why, then you will understand why they are objectionable and uncompelling to us.

Also, most (but not all) atheists are materialists, which means they do not beleive in anything supernatural. And most (but not all) materialists are secular humanists, which means they think human goals and needs are the proper moral concern of humans.

Finally, atheism is a lack of belief. There are an infinite number of creatures I have not yet made up. You lack belief in all of them. It is certain you do not believe in something you have not yet heard of, and it is equally certain you do not have an infinite number of disbeleifs in your head. Consequently, to lack belief is not the same thing as to disbelieve.

However, most of us have been introduced to the concept of the omnimax Christian God, and we definitely disbelieve in that, since it is logically contradictory, and also contradicts the evidence at hand.

[Eudaimonist]

Originally posted by fsutrill
So is it just the "Christian" God that atheists don't believe exists, or all "higher power" types (Shiva, Vishnu, Allah, etc etc)?

Atheists don't believe in any gods whatsoever; they aren't simply nonchristian. I suppose one could declare oneself an atheist with respect to a particular god, but that's not what self-declared "atheists" normally mean.

What about "evil forces" (Satan, demons, things like that) in the world? Do atheists believe those exist, or do they fall in the same category as God (or gods, whichever....)?

It would be exceedingly strange for an atheist to believe in any Christian entities, such as Satan, demons, angels, etc, since those are an integral part of the same mythology as the Christian God.

I suppose an atheist could believe in some sort of spiritual existence after death as long as nothing godlike is involved, though my guess is that this is rare.

Do most atheists label themselves "secular humanists" then? I just have so many questions....

I'd guess the answer is no, but I don't know of any reliable statistics. Atheists come in many varieties, from "just an atheist", to Secular Humanist, to Objectivist, to Existentialist, to Eudaimonist, etc, etc, etc.

Think of it this way... just as there is a great variety of theists (Christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc), so too is there a great variety of atheists.

[McGargoyle]

I suppose an atheist could believe in some sort of spiritual existence after death as long as nothing godlike is involved, though my guess is that this is rare.
I don't think so, as far as I know, there are lots of atheistic Buddhists, although I don't know if reincarnation counts as spiritual existence.


To answer the question in the OP, I agree with the majority here.
To summarize:
-Torture won't make me believe.
-Torture-induced insanity, on the other hand, might.
-Even the threat of torture will make me profess my undying love for Zeus, Thor, Ra or any other bigwig you could come up with.
-Yes, even Gibblefritz the Destroyer (great name, Angrillori, I love it!)
-Doing anything like sacrificing my child? No way!
-Once released from the dungeon, I'd try to fight the oppression with anything ranging from leaflets to bombs.

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by fsutrill
So is it just the "Christian" God that atheists don't believe exists, or all "higher power" types (Shiva, Vishnu, Allah, etc etc)?

What about "evil forces" (Satan, demons, things like that) in the world? Do atheists believe those exist, or do they fall in the same category as God (or gods, whichever....)?

I don't believe in the supernatural per se. This includes gods, goddesses, angels, demons, unicorns, ghosts, leprechauns, UFOs, poltergeists, beholders, illithids and Klingons. ;)

I don't believe in supernatural powers such as the Holy Spirit, the Force and psychic abilities. You'll note by now that I don't draw distinctions between "supernatural concept held to be true by a certain religious group" and "supernatural concept that doesn't enjoy such a status". To me, unless there's evidence, I don't believe in it - simple as that.

I do enjoy writing about such things, so I can enjoy them on a fantasy basis, but that's not the same as believing in them. Just so you know that my lack of belief is not due to a failure of imagination.

[xsquid]

Congratulations, fsutrill! You're still here! I respect a person whose curiosity is stronger than their fear. You see now why I told you this place was like sandpaper.

QueenofSwords stated my position as well. If there's no God to influence events, why would there be a need for a Satan? They feed off each other (mythologies are full of good and evil gods), an we humans are played with by both. We refuse to be the ball, and we go on to say that there are no players, either.

If "God's thoughts are not our thoughts" then no one can claim to know what God is thinking, or what It wants. Conversely, It cannot know what we are thinking. Yet millions of people claim they KNOW. ..well, I don't believe it.

[Nasreddin]

Originally posted by fsutrill
I haven't read *all* the Christian martyrs' stories throughout history, but I can't recall of any who faced their death/torture/whatever and refused to renounce their religion due to fear of punishment in the afterlife- the motivation seems to be more one of loyalty/devotion, not the simple wanting to avoid something after death.

Heh...I wasn't going to respond because I really wouldn't have anything to add besides one more "get out of it, get away, get back at them" response, but you got me thinking. What would make me want to stick to my guns in that situation?

(On a side note, I'd be surprised if you *did* find a story of a martyr that portrayed them as choosing death simply because they were more afraid of the alternative. That sort of thing doesn't make for inspiring biographies.)

Well, for one, I don't like to lie. I think that communication between us Sapienses is muddled enough as it is without ading deliberate deception into the mix.

Would this concern for communication quality trump my survival instinct? Hell no. :p And, as many people have said already, I'd figure I would be doing more good by getting to freedom and working against the inquisitioners than by making a stand. I gather there are some people to whom truth is more important than life itself, though.


Another reason would be if I saw some practical benefit in persisting...say, for example, I knew that five squads of the Godless Liberation Army ;) were getting into position even as I was talking, and I would have to keep my questioners busy for a while longer if the raid was to succeed. Or - since you mentioned martyrs - if I was certain that my example would inspire a resistance movement that would overthrow my tormentors...that could be a consideration. Maybe. I'm not big on martyrdom, either, so I'd have to have rather little to live for to consider this (http://www.despair.com/mis24x30prin.html) seriously.

You mentioned loyalty...well, as has been said already, there's no Bob the God of Unbelief to cry big glycerine tears if I recant, or to wait until I die and tell me that Don Jesus is very, very disappointed. :rolleyes: One case I can think of that would involve loyalty would be knowing that my friends have already been asked this, chose to make a stand together, and were counting on me to do so as well. (Lovely thing, peer pressure. ;) ) Not saying that I would do it, mind you, just that I would consider it.

Really, the only limit on how many of these situations you can come up with is how much fuel you take with you on your flight of fancy - and I think that if we were to compare notes, they'd look pretty similar, aside from a complete absense of supernatural reasons in mine.

[Herakles]

I haven't read *all* the Christian martyrs' stories throughout history, but I can't recall of any who faced their death/torture/whatever and refused to renounce their religion due to fear of punishment in the afterlife- the motivation seems to be more one of loyalty/devotion, not the simple wanting to avoid something after death.
Right. Fear is only part of the reasons to be a religious martyr. In addition to being afraid of punishment in the afterlife, martyrs could also be motivated by the desire to gain extra rewards in heaven. But I would be careful of accepting these martyr stoies at face value. Chances are they were embellished throughtout successive generations to put the martyr in a better light.

So is it just the "Christian" God that atheists don't believe exists, or all "higher power" types (Shiva, Vishnu, Allah, etc etc)?
Atheism means a disbelief or lack of belief in a higher power/god(s). Since Allah, Shiva, and Vishnu are all higher power/god(s), an atheist would, by default, not believe in those. Another thing to remember is that it is not Christianity vs. atheism. Instead it is theism vs. atheism. Theism meaning a belief in god(s) and atheism meaning a non-belief in god(s).

What about "evil forces" (Satan, demons, things like that) in the world? Do atheists believe those exist, or do they fall in the same category as God (or gods, whichever....)?
I would consider Satan and demons to be higher power/gods, but technically speaking an atheist only means someone who disbelieves in a god. So, an atheist is not ruled out in believing in other supernatural things such as an afterlife, miracles, etc.

[WinAce]

Originally posted by fsutrill
Are you so sure of your belief that there is no God that you would be willing to be tortured and die for it rather than give it up?

While there's no telling if, under torture, you may be able to actually convince yourself you're a theist if you believe it will save you, there's certainly no problem with lying about it. As any good general knows, there are circumstances where retreat and regroup is advised--and this is certainly one of them.

I know that one of the Christian arguments for Jesus/the Gospels says (in defense of Jesus and the Apostles were liars in the liar/Lord/lunatic argument arena), "Why would the Apostles die those horrible deaths if it was a lie they concocted?"

Quite a spurious argument, I may add. It's possible that some of the apostles were killed, as alluded to in late church traditions. But they all come from a time when the Church was prone to romanticizing such things. Moreover the fact cannot be established with even a modicum of certainty, and the details are highly lacking and demonstrably grow in latter accounts; this throws a wrench into claims of "The Apostles wouldn't have died for a lie."

Needless to say, the burden of proof on one using such an argument is to demonstrate that any of them did die for the claims of Christianity, were in a position to know it was false, had a chance to recant, etc.

[robtech]

Originally posted by fsutrill
Are you so sure of your belief that there is no God that you would be willing to be tortured and die for it rather than give it up? (sort of Ancient Rome in reverse, lol- "Denounce atheism or die" kind of thing.

If you are, how much would you be willing to endure to stick to those convictions?

I am really asking that innocently- not as any sort of debate opener or anything. I know that one of the Christian arguments for Jesus/the Gospels says (in defense of Jesus and the Apostles were liars in the liar/Lord/lunatic argument arena), "Why would the Apostles die those horrible deaths if it was a lie they concocted?" (to which you could argue that they didn't *know* it was a lie, but I really am not wanting to debate Christianity at this point, and am just using this for illustration purposes).

Then I wondered if there were any atheists as passionate about their "faith" (anti-faith? What do you call it? I put faith in " " bc I couldn't think of a better word) that there is *no* God.

Thank you for your time-
Respectfully,
Cheryl Would never, I repeat never, ask an atheist to take upon themself this horrible thing in the name of their belief!! That is not proper attitude!! It borders on being egotistical about one's Salvation.

[Sparrow]

Originally posted by robtech
It borders on being egotistical about one's Salvation. And we all know THAT never happens

Special to Nasreddin:

Welcome, welcome, welcome. Nice second post. Thanks especially for the link to www.despair.com (http://www.despair.com) . I love the one titled "Idiocy": "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups".

[Gregg]

Originally posted by McGargoyle

-Yes, even Gibblefritz the Destroyer (great name, Angrillori, I love it!)Bah. Gibblefritz just destroys. I worship Gobblefrotz the Conqueror.

[gilly54]

Are you so sure of your belief that there is no God that you would be willing to be tortured and die for it rather than give it up? (sort of Ancient Rome in reverse, lol- "Denounce atheism or die" kind of thing.

What about all those poor people, mostly women, who were accused of being witches by the Christian Inquisitors? They probably screamed to God and Jesus to save them as the flames consumed them, while the Inquisitors were paid their bounty money by the Church...

Ex: 22-18: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Put yourself in an accused woman's position. Going about your life, raising your kids, when some guy spots a birthmark on you and suddenly you are accused as a witch with a mark of Satan. No matter how you protest your faith and love of God, you are condemned.

What would YOU say, as a Christian, being killed by fellow Christians, as you were about to die an excruciating death,more horrific than that which Jesus suffered?

(As an aside, now THAT should be the topic of the next gory Hollywood religiou$ movie. I wonder if Christians will leave such a movie feeling righteous and smug, thinking their religion is so wonderful.

[Gregg]

Originally posted by gilly54
(As an aside, now THAT should be the topic of the next gory Hollywood religiou$ movie. I wonder if Christians will leave such a movie feeling righteous and smug, thinking their religion is so wonderful. Unfortunately, yes. With a straight face, they will tell you that the people who committed such ghastly acts were not True Christians (tm).

[Ego]

Firstly – welcome to the board fsutrill!

So is it just the "Christian" God that atheists don't believe exists, or all "higher power" types (Shiva, Vishnu, Allah, etc etc)?

Technically I could only say that I’m atheistic towards Christianity/Catholicism, as that is the religion I was raised with. But I have brushed upon Buddhist and Hindu teachings, so I’d be willing to call my self-atheistic towards them. However when I think about it really I’m just an atheist with no belief in a higher power.

What about "evil forces" (Satan, demons, things like that) in the world? Do atheists believe those exist, or do they fall in the same category as God (or gods, whichever....)?

I don’t believe in Satan, demons, angels, leprechauns etc, for the simple reason that they are used to contrast the ‘Good’ (God, the Christian etc) with ‘Evil’ (Satan, us evil atheists ;) ) Hence I don’t believe in them as they are a construct (damn I’m getting posh!) for religions to fill a purpose.

Also I’d be willing to shove the concept of ‘evil’ and –at a push- the concept of ‘good’ in with things I don’t believe in. (Yeah I’ve read Nietzsche’s ‘Beyond Good and Evil’) as they to me are again just concepts that religion has developed to control the herd. However don’t get me wrong I believe in morality just not in a religious concept of it!

Do most atheists label themselves "secular humanists" then? I just have so many questions....

Most of the time I’m just an existentialist, rest of the time I’m just an average 18yr old (soon to be a Philosophy Student at Uni) trying to make it through the world.