Your opinions of the Masons

[Valdemar]

Just read this:

Shooting (http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040309/D8172FIO0.html)

And it brought back bad memories of belonging to an organization called the Demolay (sp?) when I was a kid. I can't really tell you guys about it because I was warned that if I spilled the beans I would burn in hell.

So, anyone have any comments regarding the Masons or their other branches?

[Valdemar]

And one more (http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040310/D8176U8G1.html)

And by they way, I will spill the beans on the Demolay if anyone is interested. ;)

[Pensee]

Go for it! We don't mind the mess.

[Zora]

I don't understand the Masons, the Oddfellows, the Moose, Elk or any of the other ones. I don't understand fraternities, sororities or the rest, either. I barely can stomach clubs which have "rituals." It all seems just embarrassingly silly to me, no matter what name one puts on it. Why anyone would pull out a weapon, even one loaded with blanks, aim it at a person's face and pull the trigger is beyond my comprehension and certainly in violation of every gun safety principle. I'm sure the dead inductee's family is thrilled to know that guns are not a typical part of Masonic rituals. It does make me wonder about the IQ of the typical Mason in THAT lodge.

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by Pensee
Go for it! We don't mind the mess.

Well, here goes! Don't say I didn't warn you.

It was about 1980 and my long-time friend, turned Christian, became active in just about anything religious he could get his hands on. I remember him bugging me in school about joining an organization called the "Demolay" which, he explained, was associated with the Masonic Lodge. In fact, it was just a younger version of the Masons. I wasn't unfamiliar with the Masons. My father is a "Shriner," fez hat and all, and is still an active member.

I was a Christian, too, at the time and remember not wanting to join. I wasn't much of a joiner (even then!), and put off my friend for as long as possible.

He insisted for many weeks, and I finally caved in to him and agreed to go to the meeting. Little did I know at the time that it wasn't going to be a meeting, but an initiation ritual!

My friend showed up early one evening dressed in a suit and brandishing a rose. The flower was for my mother, as he explained; it was a token to her as an exchange for her son. He explained to my mother that her son was about to make his passage into adulthood. Serious talk for what I figured was to be a simple get-together.

With visions of punch and chocolate-chip cookies awaiting me at the meeting, I jumped into the car with my friend and we drove into town. I was a little nervous, especially with the way he was dressed and the short conversation with my mother, but what the hell! My good Christian friend wouldn't steer me wrong!

We arrived at a darkened building in a seedy part of town and stepped out onto the street. I questioned my friend as to the location of this "party" and he explained that we were, indeed, at the correct location. He then produced a blindfold.

A Blindfold?

He insisted that the organization was secretive and didn't welcome outsiders without a blindfold on, or at least until I was accepted into the organization. Confused, I agreed to go along with it. Afterall, I had no ride home and I felt obligated at this point, considering all the trouble he was going through just for little old me. Not to mention the punch and cookies...

I was led into a dark room where someone subsequently removed my blindfold. I was standing before an altar in the center of the room. There, a Bible was set, opened, on a pedestal. Surrounding it were candles. There were some candles scattered throughout the room, just enough to highlight about a dozen cloaked figures standing along the walls. My friend was nowhere in sight, or maybe he was one of the cloaked figures, I didn't know.

I was ordered to kneel, by one hooded figure directly before me, separated only by the Bible on the lecturn. I did as ordered. I wanted to bolt from the room, but I realized very quickly that I probably didn't have much chance of getting out in one piece with all the robed people milling about. Besides, I had no idea where the door was.

(more soon)

[Heurismus]

Your opinions of the Masons?

As far as I know there are true masons and false masons. The false masons are furious at not being acceptable; unclean as it were. They too will institute perverse facsimilies in order to tarnish the reputation of others. Therefore, as with the Nazi's they will disseminate libels and slanders. Masons were also targeted by the Third Reich!!! Is it any wonder therefore that old animosities are being fomented, whipped up by the puppet masters of Satan. Heurismus

[case]

Originally posted by Heurismus
As far as I know there are true masons and false masons. The false masons are furious at not being acceptable; unclean as it were. They too will institute perverse facsimilies in order to tarnish the reputation of others. Therefore, as with the Nazi's they will disseminate libels and slanders. Masons were also targeted by the Third Reich!!! Is it any wonder therefore that old animosities are being fomented, whipped up by the puppet masters of Satan. Heurismus

Huh?

[capnkirk]

It is a sad fact that very few (if any) Masons (much less the public at large) know anything about the origins of Freemasonry. I got interested in such origins completely by accident, and eventually spent quite a bit of time researching the subject, and what I found out was fascinating.

The closest I ever came to being a Mason was being invited to join (I declined) the group mentioned several times previously in this thread (Demolay). Ironically, it was memory of the name of this organization many years later that caused me to start my research. I was doing research on the history of the Crusader era order of warrior monks called the Knights Templar, when I found that their last Grand Master was named Jacques de Molay. That serendipitous discovery started me on a path that has led to the firm conclusion that this was the group that eventually became Freemasons. Before you guys leap to a bunch of off-the-wall conclusions about the implications of this, you need to read this very brief historical synopsis which follows:
The Knights Templar (KT) formed in 1118 by Pope Urban II as an order of Warrior Monks, were drawn from the surplus of knights (many of the non-inheritor sons of nobility had become knights) primarily from France, but later from all across Europe. As such, they answered only to the Pope.
Though the individual members were sworn to poverty, the Order wasn't. For several reasons, not the least of which was a(n inexpensive compared to the available alternatives) way for people to send money over long distances. A noble could deposit a sum with the KT's at (say) Lyon for payment to someone in (say) Jerusalem. The KT's would dispatch a courrier who had memorized a coded message containing the necessary information to Jerusalem. Upon arrival the message would be decoded, the recipient notified and payment made from the KT reserves in Jerusalem.
Over the next 200 years the Order became increasingly wealthy and powerful. They guarded the treasuries of many European kings, and some kings were deeply in debt to the KT's. The King of France was one of these.
This all came to a head as a side issue in the battle between the Pope and Philip the Fair, King of France over whether kings were subject to the Pope or not. The Pope had used the threat of the KT's to keep Philip in line, but eventually Philip's scheming placed "his" man on the papal throne.
Now to take care of his other problem. He started circulating heretical rumors about KT, then used those rumors to get "his" Pope to denounce the Order publicly (and secret permission for Philip to act against them).
In the predawn hours of Friday, April 13, 1307 (some contend that this event is the root of the superstition about Friday the 13th being an unlucky day), Philip struck. He arrested about 99% of the 15,000 KT's in France, imprisoned them and tortured confessions of blasphemous acts from them. Then he started executing them. Jacques de Molay, refusing to confess, was one of the last to die, was publicly burned at the stake in March 1314.
However, when the Papal directive to arrest all KT's arrived in England, the English King was not on good terms with the Pope, and no preemptive raids were conducted. KT's were given 60 days to turn themselves in. Knowing what had happened in France, when the 60 days were up and the King's men went to arrest the English Templars, they had disappeared!
These KT's were now under a death sentence if captured. so they instituted a sworn oath from all members to die before betraying a 'brother'. Incidently, these were French-speaking Norman Knights, and their standard greeting to their "brother monks" was "frere maison". 'Freemason' is most likely a corruption of this greeting.
For the next 400 years, these (educated for their time) knights, their descendants, and worthy inductees carried on as a secret society, creating a set of ideals that would surface only after the society went public in 1717 London.
Being religious Xtians, while at the same time victims of the Church and State acting in collusion, were some of the first champions of the separation of church and state. It was only after such separation was assured in England that they felt that they could come out of the closet.
The catholic church, however, has long suspected who the Freemasons were and have issued numerous papal bulls excoriating freemasonry because of it, and the ideals of secular government that came out of it.
During this 400 years 'underground' most of their roots as KT's were lost, surviving only in symbolism contained in the various initiation rituals for the different advanced degrees of membership in the order.
Most of the most innovative and enduring features of the US Constitution that Xtians claim are there because of Xtianity are in fact Masonic concepts, many of which the Xtain leadership of the time fought against.

As I said this is just the briefest synopsis...designed to provide an overall perspective of the origins and legacy of freemasonry.

[4th Generation Atheist]

Originally posted by Valdemar
Just read this:

Shooting (http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040309/D8172FIO0.html)
<...>

So, anyone have any comments regarding the Masons or their other branches?

Not much opinion one way or the other about Masons, I've known a few and they were all different people, but I'll tell you my opinion of the particular Mason described in this article:

He's going to a ritual where he knows he has the task of making a loud, sudden noise. It has been agreed that this will be accomplished by firing a blank at someone's head (already in the not-smart department here...). Then, when packing to go, he puts the blank-loaded gun in the same pocket with one containing real bullets.

What. A. Dumbass. -----! :eek:

Didn't know they still made 'em that way. How much inbreeding is there in that town? :confused:

[miss djax]

Originally posted by Valdemar



(more soon)


dammit!!! between you and c-o-a-s' de-salvation story, im hanging on the edge of my seat :D

gimme more already!!

ms d

[Ab_Normal]

Both my office-mate and I really really want one of those snazzy Shriner's fezzes with the rhinestones and the tassle and the *oh my*.

That and the Shriner's Hospitals seem to do good work for kids with health problems.

*shrug* That's all I got on Masons.

[Heurismus]

But they just call themselves masons; that the whole point, as far as I'm concerned they are a bunch of clowns. The Buddhists have a well known saying: 'Those who speak do not know, and those who know do not speak'. So the next time you bump into Fluffy the Mason; just take one look and laugh. Spacemen the lot of them. And now they are blowing each others brains out, need I say any more!!! H

[Valdemar]

Okay, no one has PM'd me threatening to kill me yet, so I guess I can continue.

Let's see, where was I?

Oh, yeah, kneeling before an Altar with a Bible on it. Now, I don't recall exactly which page the Bible was opened to, or which verse they wanted me to see exactly, because most of what happened at this point was all a haze. I was more frightened for my life than anything, and would do just about anything they said to get out of there.

Anyway, I was ordered to read a passage from the Bible by the guy in the robes standing in front of me, and I complied. As I said, I don't remember which verse exactly, and maybe someone else with a similar experience might remember. I read the verse hastily, trying not to think about the cloaked figures lining the sides of the room.

When I was finished, I was ordered to close the Bible and kiss the front cover, which I did. Keep in mind, that I was a Christian at the time, and though this seemed highly unusual to me, it wasn't as revolting as it would have been if I had been an Atheist (though I doubt that I would have even gotten that far if I hadn't been a Christian). I was then told by the cloaked figure that if I ever revealed what had happened that night in that room, my soul would be damned to eternal hellfire.

I was led from the room with my blindfold on once more, and I found myself at my friend's car. We drove home then, not saying much. I was frightened and embarrassed by the experience. Needless to say, there was no punch or cookies for me that night!

The next day in school, my friend pretended that nothing had happened and me, being afraid of eternal damnation, said nothing of the experience. It wasn't until a week later that my friend informed me that I had passed the initiation, and I had become a proud member of the Demolay!

I never attended a single meeting, so sorry to say I can't inform you of the inner-workings of that organization. But I guess my "soul" is damned to "eternal hellfire" after telling this story to you folks. But, then, I'm an Atheist and I don't believe in such nonsense anyway.

[Gawen]

From the article:

He pleaded innocent to a manslaughter charge and bail was set at $2,500. His next court date was scheduled for April 27. Manslaughter??? I'd do him in for negligent homicide...or a lesser case of murder. And how does one plead innocent in this case???

[Gregg]

Valdemar, I was a member of DeMolay from around the age of 16 to 21. I am proud to say that. It is a fine organization.

I went through the DeMolay initiation. I witnessed many DeMolay initiations. I participated in the initiations. I still have my DeMolay ritual, which contains the initiation ceremony.

Your description bears no resemblance whatsoever to the DeMolay initation ritual.

There are no blindfolds, no hooded and cloaked figures, no threats of hellfire.

You are either lying through your teeth, or the initiation you went through was not a DeMolay initiation.

By the way, the DeMolay initiation is no longer secret. Parents and family are welcome to attend. If anyone would like to know what a REAL DeMolay initiation is like, just let me know.

As for those of you who are trashing the Masons, I wonder what you'd be saying about them if you ever had to take your child to a Shriner's burn hospital.

Stick to slamming fundamentalists. DeMolay and Freemasonry teach tolerance, charity, and universal brotherhood. Yes, they are both quasi-religious groups, and belief in deity is a "requirement" for membership, but they are certainly not enemies of liberty and reason.Originally posted by Valdemar
Okay, no one has PM'd me threatening to kill me yet, so I guess I can continue.

Let's see, where was I?

Oh, yeah, kneeling before an Altar with a Bible on it. Now, I don't recall exactly which page the Bible was opened to, or which verse they wanted me to see exactly, because most of what happened at this point was all a haze. I was more frightened for my life than anything, and would do just about anything they said to get out of there.

Anyway, I was ordered to read a passage from the Bible by the guy in the robes standing in front of me, and I complied. As I said, I don't remember which verse exactly, and maybe someone else with a similar experience might remember. I read the verse hastily, trying not to think about the cloaked figures lining the sides of the room.

When I was finished, I was ordered to close the Bible and kiss the front cover, which I did. Keep in mind, that I was a Christian at the time, and though this seemed highly unusual to me, it wasn't as revolting as it would have been if I had been an Atheist (though I doubt that I would have even gotten that far if I hadn't been a Christian). I was then told by the cloaked figure that if I ever revealed what had happened that night in that room, my soul would be damned to eternal hellfire.

I was led from the room with my blindfold on once more, and I found myself at my friend's car. We drove home then, not saying much. I was frightened and embarrassed by the experience. Needless to say, there was no punch or cookies for me that night!

The next day in school, my friend pretended that nothing had happened and me, being afraid of eternal damnation, said nothing of the experience. It wasn't until a week later that my friend informed me that I had passed the initiation, and I had become a proud member of the Demolay!

I never attended a single meeting, so sorry to say I can't inform you of the inner-workings of that organization. But I guess my "soul" is damned to "eternal hellfire" after telling this story to you folks. But, then, I'm an Atheist and I don't believe in such nonsense anyway.

[SkepticBoyLee]

My father and grandfather, both actually are/were MAsons.

I like them because fundy christinas hate them and say they are devil worshippors. Anybody the fundys hate are all right with me.

Also they accept anyone from any religion. You have to believe in a higher power or "higher essance" or "something more" but you dont have to be of a particular religion.

there is a lot of bullshit started by christian fundies that says the Masons are connected with the Illuminati and are trying to take over the world....you know the story right along with the "Demons are disguising themselves as UFO aliens and abducting people. This is how those left behind will explain the rapture...theyll say they went away in a UFO".......whoa got off track.


Anyways Im not positive of the real nature of Fremasonry but its intersting. Washington, Jefferson and about 20 other presidents were freemasons. Look on the back of a dollar...looks like Masonic symbols.

At any rate they arent worse than dogmatic fundy christians!

And if fundys hate me then I like em!!

The stuff is focused mostly on the "ancient mysteries" or some junk.

[Gregg]

Originally posted by Heurismus
But they just call themselves masons; that the whole point, as far as I'm concerned they are a bunch of clowns. The Buddhists have a well known saying: 'Those who speak do not know, and those who know do not speak'. So the next time you bump into Fluffy the Mason; just take one look and laugh. Spacemen the lot of them. And now they are blowing each others brains out, need I say any more!!! H Heurismus, I'm disappointed in you. Here (http://www.masonicinfo.com/famous1.htm) and here (http://www.masonicinfo.com/famous2.htm) are some of the people you dismiss as "clowns." Such as: George Washington, Thurgood Marshall, Edwin E. Aldrin, Irving Berlin, Mel Blanc, Omar Bradley, Admiral Richard Byrd, Kit Carson, Joshua Chamberlain, Winston Churchill, Nat "King" Cole, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Duke Ellington, Douglas Fairbanks, John Glenn, Barry Goldwater, Gus Grissom, Harry Houdini, Rudyard Kipling, Marquis de Lafayette, Meriwether Lewis, Dr. Charles Mayo, Kweisi Mfume, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Paul Revere, Will Rogers, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Wally Schirra, Peter Sellers, Red Skelton (there's your "clown"), Danny Thomas, Harry S Truman, Booker T. Washington, Cy Young, Andrew Young.

OK, there's some bad eggs on the list...like Trent Lott, Strom Thurmond, and Jesse Helms. No organization's perfect.

[FireMason]

As an ex-Mason (SR) myself, I must say that some of the comments here are remarkable.

First, I find it amazing that anyone would bring a gun into a meeting. I have gone through that Fellowcraft induction and there were certainly no guns used. (I think they clapped some planks together).

While I may be biased since I come from a long line of Masons, I must say that, had it not been for my lack of belief, I would probably still be a Mason.
The values espoused by Freemasonry are those of brotherhood, enlightenment, charity and self-improvement. The good works they do and the good will they have towards all can be favourably compared with most religions and a large number of other secular organisations.

I will refrain from commenting on the Templar connection except to say that many people have made large amounts of money by concocting conspiracy theories or false histories using flimsy evidence and conjecture to fool the gullible.

[SkepticBoyLee]

The Knights Templar connection looks pretty cool to me. They pissed off the cahtlic church, they were big on seperation of church and state, they help found many of the values of this country.

Wheres the negative??

[Heurismus]

As my antecedents are from the Scottish Lodges; they always saw the virtues of Christian morality being perverted by other forms of Masonry. I am well aware of the Great men who have contributed, and I do not dismiss Freemasons, or other Charitable organisations. I do dismiss however the unfair advantages and often dubious purposes to which secret societies are put. Apologies to all genuine Masons, but perhaps those seeking entry should be vetted more thoroughly. And silly practices like accidentally blowing people's brains out should be revised too. I am not ignorant in these matters, however it seems that the Ancient Lodges require overhaul, or at least more stringent vetting.
Humbly yours Heurismus.

[capnkirk]

Originally posted by SkepticBoyLee
The Knights Templar connection looks pretty cool to me. They pissed off the catholic church, they were big on separation of church and state, they helped to found many of the values of this country.

Wheres the negative?? To echo Heurismus' response in slightly different terms, when the form of Xtianity a specific group practices becomes corrupted, any organizations to which they belong also become corrupted...and small secret organizations where most (or all) the members share the same church (or other source of corruption) are particularly vulnerable. This corruption usually goes unnoticed until it causes something to happen that shocks the community that surrounds them. This is the bane of secret organizations in general.

The corruption may take the form of stupidity, like the example cited at the start of this thread, or of power (where most of the leaders of the community are members) and the group becomes a government sub rosa, or a business cabal.

The example cited is really most similar in form and content to a college "hazing" death, except that the participants were older and presumably more mature, making their foolishness even more intolerable. That it was a masonic initiation rather than, say, a fraternity or sorority initiation is incidental. Ignorance and stupidity are the same enemies wherever you encounter them.

[Gregg]

This is the most absurd stuff I've ever heard. I was involved with DeMolay and Masonry for quite some time. All the Masons I met were men of high character. I watched several initiations and all of them were conducted in the utmost dignity and solemnity. There was no "hazing" to speak of, and there were certainly no guns. I'd be willing to bet that guns, even unloaded ones, are banned from most Masonic lodges. There is a strict ritual to be followed, and I never saw anyone deviate from it.

Have there been exceptions? Of course, there are always exceptions. Stupidity finds its way into everything. But to suggest that the behavior described above occurs with anything near the frequency it occurs in, say, college fraternity initiations...that is an unfounded assertion.

I might add, I never saw or heard business matters or politics being discussed at any Masonic meeting I attended (although I'm sure networking goes on to some degree at Masonic functions, as it does everywhere else). Charitable activities and dinners seemed to be the primary topics.Originally posted by capnkirk
To echo Heurismus' response in slightly different terms, when the form of Xtianity a specific group practices becomes corrupted, any organizations to which they belong also become corrupted...and small secret organizations where most (or all) the members share the same church (or other source of corruption) are particularly vulnerable. This corruption usually goes unnoticed until it causes something to happen that shocks the community that surrounds them. This is the bane of secret organizations in general.

The corruption may take the form of stupidity, like the example cited at the start of this thread, or of power (where most of the leaders of the community are members) and the group becomes a government sub rosa, or a business cabal.

The example cited is really most similar in form and content to a college "hazing" death, except that the participants were older and presumably more mature, making their foolishness even more intolerable. That it was a masonic initiation rather than, say, a fraternity or sorority initiation is incidental. Ignorance and stupidity are the same enemies wherever you encounter them.

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by Gregg
Your description bears no resemblance whatsoever to the DeMolay initation ritual.

There are no blindfolds, no hooded and cloaked figures, no threats of hellfire.

You are either lying through your teeth, or the initiation you went through was not a DeMolay initiation.



Well I know that I'm not lying through my teeth, and I take exception to your innuendo, and I know that it was a Demolay initiation. So, there must be a third option, correct? Maybe you need to re-read the OP. By your estimation, either the writer of the article is fabricating the story, or it wasn't really a Masonic lodge initiation.

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by Gregg
Valdemar, I was a member of DeMolay from around the age of 16 to 21. I am proud to say that. It is a fine organization.

I'm glad it was for you. It wasn't for me.

Originally posted by Gregg
I went through the DeMolay initiation. I witnessed many DeMolay initiations. I participated in the initiations. I still have my DeMolay ritual, which contains the initiation ceremony.

You are either lying through your teeth, or the initiation you went through was not a Demolay initiation.

Originally posted by Gregg
As for those of you who are trashing the Masons, I wonder what you'd be saying about them if you ever had to take your child to a Shriner's burn hospital.

And for anyone trashing the Catholics, I wonder what you would be saying if you visited one of their soup kitchens.

It so happens that my father does contribute to the Shriner's hospital, being a member of the Masonic lodge himself.

Originally posted by Gregg
Stick to slamming fundamentalists. DeMolay and Freemasonry teach tolerance, charity, and universal brotherhood.

I'll stick to "slamming" whomever I want, thank you. And I wasn't slamming, just inquiring. Christianity also teaches tolerance, charity, and universal brotherhood. So what? Does that exempt it from scrutiny? Why should your organization be exempt?

Originally posted by Gregg
Yes, they are both quasi-religious groups, and belief in deity is a "requirement" for membership, but they are certainly not enemies of liberty and reason.

Says you. Requiring a belief in a deity for membership by definition makes it an enemy of liberty and reason.

[Nick the Dick]

I’ve previously read that the masons are actually a method by which people who where druids (what ever that entails) hid their religion from Christian persecution.

[Gregg]

Originally posted by Valdemar
Well I know that I'm not lying through my teeth, and I take exception to your innuendo, and I know that it was a Demolay initiation. So, there must be a third option, correct? Maybe you need to re-read the OP. By your estimation, either the writer of the article is fabricating the story, or it wasn't really a Masonic lodge initiation. Yes, there is a third option--that your "friend" pulled a practical joke on you. The plain fact, Valdemar, is that your description in no way resembles any DeMolay initiation I ever witnessed or participated in--and I was heavily involved with this group for five or six years of my life and saw dozens of initiations. I could never have belonged to any church or organization that threatened me with hellfire or any such crap.

Hell, I'd be glad to send you my extra copy of the DeMolay manual so you can see for yourself what the initiation involves. As I said, it's no longer secret.

If this group was conducting an initiation like you described in the name of DeMolay, I sure wish I'd known about it, because I would've reported it to the national headquarters (located in Kansas City) and they would have put a stop to it immediately.

[capnkirk]

Originally posted by Nick the Dick
I’ve previously read that the masons are actually a method by which people who where druids (what ever that entails) hid their religion from Christian persecution. Such a history would make it extremely difficult to explain the integral role that Protestant Xtian faith has played in Freemasonry since it first went public in 1717. I have in my research found exactly ZERO evidence to even hint at that origin.

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by Gregg
Yes, there is a third option--that your "friend" pulled a practical joke on you.

And there is a fourth option: the Demolay has initiations that you aren't aware of.

Originally posted by Gregg
The plain fact, Valdemar, is that your description in no way resembles any DeMolay initiation I ever witnessed or participated in--and I was heavily involved with this group for five or six years of my life and saw dozens of initiations.

And I should believe you, Gregg, after you started this attack on me?:
You are either lying through your teeth, or the initiation you went through was not a DeMolay initiation.

I have no ax to grind here, but it sure seems you do.

Originally posted by Gregg
Hell, I'd be glad to send you my extra copy of the DeMolay manual so you can see for yourself what the initiation involves. As I said, it's no longer secret.

Which begs the question: why bother having an "initiation" in the first place?

Originally posted by Gregg
If this group was conducting an initiation like you described in the name of DeMolay, I sure wish I'd known about it, because I would've reported it to the national headquarters (located in Kansas City) and they would have put a stop to it immediately.

But since it couldn't possibly happen, in your estimation, then there was nothing to stop, now was there?

And I don't see you continuing this discussion, anyway, after you said this: Stick to slamming fundamentalists.

When you admit this:

Yes, they are both quasi-religious groups, and belief in deity is a "requirement" for membership,

And the title of this forum is "General Religious Discussions."

[Gregg]

Originally posted by Valdemar
I'm glad it was for you. It wasn't for me.And yours wasn't a DeMolay initiation.You are either lying through your teeth, or the initiation you went through was not a Demolay initiation.Let's see. I was a member of Demolay for 5 or 6 years. I was Master Councilor of the William F. Kuhn chapter, Order of DeMolay, sponsored by William F. Kuhn Royal Arch Masons, for several of those years. I went to a meeting every month. I attended DeMolay State Conclave every year. I attended, and participated in, dozens of initiations and confirmations. I went to DeMolay/Job's Daughters dances. I did charitable work. I attained the rank of Chevalier. Yet I somehow managed not to have a DeMolay initiation, and I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. Meanwhile, you went through one so-called "initiation" and never had any further contact with DeMolay, and you're the expert. OK.... :rolleyes:And for anyone trashing the Catholics, I wonder what you would be saying if you visited one of their soup kitchens.Go ahead, trash away. I challenge you to find one thing the Masons have done as a body that even remotely compares to the documented gross atrocities committed by the RCC.It so happens that my father does contribute to the Shriner's hospital, being a member of the Masonic lodge himself.And he's confirmed that DeMolay has an initiation involving blindfolds, hoods and cloaks, and threats of hellfire?I'll stick to "slamming" whomever I want, thank you. And I wasn't slamming, just inquiring. Christianity also teaches tolerance, charity, and universal brotherhood. So what? Does that exempt it from scrutiny? Why should your organization be exempt?Scrutinize away. You obviously haven't done much scrutinizing, or you wouldn't be spreading such bull.
Says you. Requiring a belief in a deity for membership by definition makes it an enemy of liberty and reason. So much for freedom of association. And I guess this means that George Washington, Paul Revere, and probably better than a third of the Consitutional Convention were enemies of liberty and reason.

[Gregg]

Originally posted by Valdemar
And there is a fourth option: the Demolay has initiations that you aren't aware of.Sure. Somehow it's more likely that DeMolay has bizarre supersecret initiations I never heard of in five or six years of heavy involvement with the group, than it is that someone was pulling your leg.And I should believe you, Gregg, after you started this attack on me?:What this has to do with anything, I have no idea.I have no ax to grind here, but it sure seems you do.It's probably too late to apologize, but I'm going to anyway. I was wrong to accuse you of lying. I should have simply said you were mistaken and politely set you straight. Your post made me angry, because you were presenting your experience as normative for DeMolays, which it is not, and I simply reacted before I calmed down. My mistake.Which begs the question: why bother having an "initiation" in the first place?Is there a rule that initiations have to be secret? The Christian baptism is an initiation. Is it secret?But since it couldn't possibly happen, in your estimation, then there was nothing to stop, now was there?I never said it didn't happen. I said it was not a DeMolay initiation. If those guys were really DeMolays, what they did was not sanctioned by DeMolay International, and had headquarters learned about it, they would most likely have been expelled.

In regard to your last comments, most people do make a distinction between fundamentalist religion and mere belief in a deity.

Gregg

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by Gregg
And yours wasn't a DeMolay initiation.

It most certainly was.

Originally posted by Gregg
Let's see. I was a member of Demolay for 5 or 6 years. I was Master Councilor of the William F. Kuhn chapter, Order of DeMolay, sponsored by William F. Kuhn Royal Arch Masons, for several of those years. I went to a meeting every month. I attended DeMolay State Conclave every year. I attended, and participated in, dozens of initiations and confirmations. I went to DeMolay/Job's Daughters dances. I did charitable work. I attained the rank of Chevalier. Yet I somehow managed not to have a DeMolay initiation, and I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

You want me to agree with you here? After you called me a liar, twice now?

Originally posted by Gregg
Meanwhile, you went through one so-called "initiation" and never had any further contact with DeMolay, and you're the expert.

I never said I was an expert. I was merely telling of my experience with the Demolay, which, since you don't agree with it, merely wish to accuse me of lying instead. I'm sure you don't think that the people in the OP are "real" Masons, either, but there it is in print and won't go away, even though I'm sure you wish it would.

Originally posted by Gregg
Go ahead, trash away.

And where in my posts have I trashed the Masons? The only "trashing" I see going on around here is by you trashing me and my experiences. Touched a nerve, have we?

Originally posted by Gregg
I challenge you to find one thing the Masons have done as a body that even remotely compares to the documented gross atrocities committed by the RCC.

You're kidding, right? You call this an argument? I need to find something like the inquisition in order to be able to indict the Masons? Jim Jones committed atrocities not even remotely comparable to what the Catholic church has done, but he should still be scrutinized, don't you think? And, no, I'm not saying that the Masonic lodge is killing members with cool-aide, before you use your line of reasoning and venture down that path. (But they are killing them with bullets to the brain.)

Originally posted by Gregg
And he's confirmed that DeMolay has an initiation involving blindfolds, hoods and cloaks, and threats of hellfire?Scrutinize away. You obviously haven't done much scrutinizing, or you wouldn't be spreading such bull.

And that's the third time you've called me a liar. What are you hiding? Why all the personal attacks? And why don't you answer the question I asked before: Why are initiations even necessary?

Originally posted by Gregg
So much for freedom of association.

And so much for freedom of speech. Your quote, once more:
Stick to slamming fundamentalists.


Originally posted by Gregg
And I guess this means that George Washington, Paul Revere, and probably better than a third of the Consitutional Convention were enemies of liberty and reason.

All fine men, but has nothing to do with the OP, and nothing to do with what we're discussing. I would say you're guilty of the "True Scotsman" fallicy here.

I wait anxiously for you to call me a liar several more times, since you can't seem to muster an argument or answer questions.

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by Gregg
It's probably too late to apologize, but I'm going to anyway. I was wrong to accuse you of lying.

Was that an apology? If so, accepted.

Originally posted by Gregg
I should have simply said you were mistaken and politely set you straight. Your post made me angry, because you were presenting your experience as normative for DeMolays, which it is not, and I simply reacted before I calmed down.

I was merely explaining MY experience with the Demolay. I in no way said it was normal. I asked for other people's experiences, and you had the chance at that time to relay yours, but you turned it into a personal attack instead.

Originally posted by Gregg
My mistake.Is there a rule that initiations have to be secret? The Christian baptism is an initiation. Is it secret?I never said it didn't happen. I said it was not a DeMolay initiation.

I have no idea if they need to be secret. Mine was. But this still doesn't explain why initiations are necessary. Baptisms notwithstanding.

Originally posted by Gregg
If those guys were really DeMolays, what they did was not sanctioned by DeMolay International, and had headquarters learned about it, they would most likely have been expelled.

As the Masons in the OP should be expelled, too, I take it, since they aren't really "true" Masons.

Originally posted by Gregg
In regard to your last comments, most people do make a distinction between fundamentalist religion and mere belief in a deity.

It was a disctinction that you created by saying "stick to slamming fundamentalists." It was not a distinction I made. This was posted in "General Religious Discussions" not "Fundamental Religious Discussions" (which doesn't exist.)

In any case, I have accepted your apology and wait for other input regarding the Masons and DeMolay.

Valdemar

[spence]

About thirty years ago I was thrown in jail for drunk driving. My girlfriend told a neighbor who was a mason. The Masonic neighbor went down there an did his funny handshake or something with the Constable and out I was.

My good experiences aside, I have some serious concerns with the organisation. First of all, an extremely disproportionate large number of law enforcement, secret service and espionage agents are members of Freemasonry. The Masonic neighbor told me that Masons are required to protect their bretheren from conviction and that many judges are Masons.
Given these circumstances, in spite of the fact that most Masons are decent folks, even do-gooders, whomever is at the top of this organisation has underneath him a protection pyramid. They could get by with just about anything. What if they are the ruling elite? Or the military-industrial establishment? Just because their underlings are OK people doesn't mean the hierarchy isn't run like a worldwide crime syndicate.

Fremasonry must not be a Christian organisation since it also has Jewish members. I think you're expected to believe in a "supreme being" to be a member.

Here's an anti- Masonic site, I don't know how accurate it's claims are but many of it's assertions fit in to the many bits and pieces I've gathered about them over the years.

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/index.html

[4th Generation Atheist]

Jeeebus, people! Calm down!!

Has it occurred to anyone present that there might well be more than one outfit using the name DeMolay? The Masons and their derivatives/auxiliaries have fascinated Americans (both members and nonmembers of these groups) for at least a couple of centuries and are much imitated. Also, there are a number of groups that call themselves Masonry: different "Rites" (the Scottish Rite being the one most people think of) and different Masonic organizations that entered the U.S. at different times. (They differ in their practices; there is even a "Co-Masonic" group, entirely separate from the Scottish Rite group, that accepts women). Sometimes these groups have been rivals, other times allies. Sometimes groups have splintered off to form their own things (like the now-defunct "Egyptian Masonry" that H.P. Lovecraft's father was a member of). Adding to the issue is the fact that the conspiracy-theorist set is easily thrown into high dudgeon by these groups; the secret rituals, varying degrees of exclusivity of membership, and tendency to run in families easily tripping them off.

The DeMolay group described here could be anything from a legitimate alternate group to a bunch of teens engaging in a prank. The shooting incident is a simple tragedy. Were it typical of Masons we'd hear these stories a lot more often.

Also, even within one group the satisfaction an individual gets from membership often has a lot to do with the region of the country he's in, or even the individual lodge. I know one guy who busted ass in a paperwork struggle to get membership in a lodge in a larger city, rather than the small-town one in which he was encouraged to participate; his words were "all those [Lodge name deleted in the interest of privacy] guys ever do is go bowling" where my friend wanted more mystic rites and more charity work.

And yes there is a lot of evidence that many of our nation's principles that people who post here hold dear, such as religious liberty and church/state separation, were championed by early American members of the Masons and similar allied groups. It seems appropriate that even if we disagree with their position on the existence of a Supreme Being we give some credit where it is due. I'd certainly consider the balance of mainstream Masonry, unless it has changed a great deal in the last couple of generations, something of an ally against fundamentalism, though I wouldn't necessarily assume it to be a permanent one; rather like the mainstream Xns in that respect.

[Gregg]

Originally posted by Valdemar
I have no idea if they need to be secret. Mine was. But this still doesn't explain why initiations are necessary. Baptisms notwithstanding.]The initiation is designed to make an impression on the candidates (a POSITIVE impression). It's a rite of passage in a sense.As the Masons in the OP should be expelled, too, I take it, since they aren't really "true" Masons.I have been very conscious of the possibility of committing the "No True Scotsman" fallacy here. A boy must petition a DeMolay chapter for membership and be vouched for by a current DeMolay. Another DeMolay (who must be an officer of the chapter, I believe) and a Masonic advisor then visit the boy and his parents. If they're satisifed he'll make a good DeMolay, the petition is approved. DeMolay does not claim to be in the business of turning "bad boys" around--it tries to recruit boys who already demonstrate good character.

Therefore, I believe DeMolay must accept responsibility for those boys who do not live up to standard, and expel them if necessary. The actions of your friend and the others who participated in the "initiation," if they were duly initiated DeMolays recognized by DeMolay International, were definitely grounds for expulsion. No such initiation as you describe has ever been approved or sanctioned by DeMolay. There is only one accepted initiation, which has two degrees, and it is described in detail in the DeMolay ritual.

I would certainly not claim that the Masons in the OP were not "real" or "true" Masons. They were really and truly STUPID Masons, apparently. Unfortunately stupidity abounds among human beings and I don't think you're going to find many organizations that are completely free of idiots, no matter how hard they try to weed them out.

[Heurismus]

In true Masonry no one can petition for entry!!! But that is just my humble opinion. A person's character and virtue are not clothing which can be put on and taken off at will. Heurismus

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by 4th Generation Atheist
Jeeebus, people! Calm down!!

I am calm. I was never not calm. We were simply debating and I took exception to some things said, and Gregg apologized. Simple as that.

Originally posted by 4th Generation Atheist
The DeMolay group described here could be anything from a legitimate alternate group to a bunch of teens engaging in a prank. The shooting incident is a simple tragedy. Were it typical of Masons we'd hear these stories a lot more often.

I suppose it could have been a prank, but don't pranks usually end with much laughter and finger pointing and "we gotcha's"? This certainly didn't happen in my case. So I assume it is as you said, an alternate group.

Originally posted by 4th Generation Atheist
It seems appropriate that even if we disagree with their position on the existence of a Supreme Being we give some credit where it is due. I'd certainly consider the balance of mainstream Masonry, unless it has changed a great deal in the last couple of generations, something of an ally against fundamentalism, though I wouldn't necessarily assume it to be a permanent one; rather like the mainstream Xns in that respect.

Which is an interesting comment, because in my church (when I was a xtian), the Masonic Lodge was typically referred to as a "cult" organization because of its secretiveness and ties to India (anything as "exotic" and coming from the East, MUST be a cult). I wonder if any Christians on this board would like to comment on that aspect. Magus?

[Heurismus]

Originally posted by capnkirk
Such a history would make it extremely difficult to explain the integral role that Protestant Xtian faith has played in Freemasonry since it first went public in 1717. I have in my research found exactly ZERO evidence to even hint at that origin.

The Druidic cult is a Romantic Revival of a history; scantilly known.
As Stonehenge itself wasn't written of in a popular manner until the late 17th century by John Aubrey, the roots of a romanticised resurrection would perhaps be coincident with, if not later than 1707. I will check this in detail and post my results, amongst many other things. Any association therefore, would be wholly fictional, or as part of an organised if somewhat covert attempt to reduce Anglican credibility further. An essay or book in itself; maybe someone knows of such a work or journal article.

Heurismus.

Edited in-
As far as I’m concerned; I wouldn’t touch this with a barge pole, unless I wanted to be laughed out of existence. The first site I approve of. The second two are for fantasists, charlatans and jummblywads.
Enjoy:

John Aubrey’s works on Earth Mysteries, genuine historical texts, plus accounts and erudite expositions.
http://witcombe.sbc.edu/earthmysteries/EMAubry.html

French Bunk on Masons and Stonehenge, don’t they love their own words in print?

http://www.historyamericas.com/Sacred_Sites_of_the_Knights_Templar_Ancient_Astronomer_and_Freemasons_at_Stonehenge_RennesLeChateau_and_Santiago_De_Compostela_1592330177.html

(although part of EH ref)

http://www.geocities.com/oddlyoddly/Stonehenge.html

[Boomeister]

My uncle is a Mason, and I think my grandfather was a Mason (if I remember correctly). I always thought it was a strange, though prosocial (charitable) organization. My uncle doesn't talk to me about it. It's a secret society...and even worse, a secret society that doesn't allow women. Strange, but hey...to each his own.
From what I'm reading from the other posts, that article doesn't represent what happens in most Mason rituals. Just like any organization, it seems, you will always find idiots.


Boomeister

[Gregg]

Valdemar, I hope that I've persuaded you that your experience with a "DeMolay" initiation was NOT typical and was certainly NOT sanctioned by DeMolay International (tm), also known as the Order of DeMolay (tm) or conducted according to its bylaws. If DeMolays registered with DeMolay International (tm) participated in this initiation, I can assure you that they did so without the knowledge and approval of the above named sanctioning body. And furthermore, if these were registered DeMolays, and they misled you into believing that your initiation was sanctioned by DeMolay International (tm), rather than making it clear that this was an unaffiliated group with the same name, I am certain that would be grounds for their immediate expulsion.

I can assure you that everything I've told you about my participation in DeMolay is true and accurate, and much of it is verifiable. The formal initiation into a Masonic-affiliated DeMolay chapter sanctioned by DeMolay International (tm) does not involve blindfolds, hoods and cloaks, or threats of hellfire. It does involve kissing a Bible (or other religious book--Qu'ran, the Vedas, etc.--DeMolay International (tm) is truly international and there are Hindu, Buddhist, and Muslim DeMolays), but there is no actual reading from the Bible on the part of the initiates, nor are they asked to close the Bible and kiss the cover.

Furthermore, in my years of participation in DeMolay I never heard of another boys' organization of the same name. I'm not saying that such does not exist, but I am certain it has absolutely no connection with DeMolay International (tm), the Masonic-affiliated organization for boys founded in Kansas City in 1919 by Master Mason Frank S. Land, of which I was a member.

This sounds like a bit of legalese, but I wanted to be sure I was being as clear as possible.

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by Gregg
Valdemar, I hope that I've persuaded you that your experience with a "DeMolay" initiation was NOT typical and was certainly NOT sanctioned by DeMolay International (tm), also known as the Order of DeMolay (tm) or conducted according to its bylaws.

You may need to work on your skills of persuasion. I have forgiven you, just not forgotten. I do believe you, in spite of that.

Originally posted by Gregg
It does involve kissing a Bible (or other religious book--Qu'ran, the Vedas, etc.--

THANK YOU. Now the readers of this thread can see that I didn't lie, at least about THAT part, and the appropriateness of this being in GRD.

Valdemar

[TheRealityOfMan]

So why is belief in a God mandatory? Why is there such a discrimination against Atheists?

[jj]

Originally posted by Valdemar
I was merely explaining MY experience with the Demolay

Yo, dude, somebody was yanking your chain.

Either that, or you're from the K of C :D

[jj]

Originally posted by spence
Here's an anti- Masonic site, I don't know how accurate it's claims are but many of it's assertions fit in to the many bits and pieces I've gathered about them over the years.

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/index.html

That site is coo coo for cocoapuffs.

No, I'm not one and I never have been, I'm not even remotely a deist, remember?

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by jj
Yo, dude, somebody was yanking your chain.

And you know this how? On second thought, I don't want to hear your opinion. We all know what they are like... and everyone's got one.

Originally posted by jj
Either that, or you're from the K of C :D

I have no idea what that means.

[jj]

Originally posted by Valdemar
And you know this how? On second thought, I don't want to hear your opinion. We all know what they are like... and everyone's got one.


Any number of people with information on this subject have told you that what you experienced wasn't what you thought it was.

None the less, you seem to be determined to wave off all varieties of information as "just opinion", etc.

I dare say that several people have stated something more than opinion. I won't doubt that what you say happened did in fact happen, but I intensely doubt that it was what your friends made it out to be.


I have no idea what that means.
It's a long story. Never mind.

[SkepticBoyLee]

Check out http://www.masonicinfo.com/ (Masonic Info) they do a VERY stute job of defending themselves.

I learned about the mistranslation of the word "Lucifer" in the bible on that site. Check it out!!

[Gregg]

Originally posted by TheRealityOfMan
So why is belief in a God mandatory? Why is there such a discrimination against Atheists? Well, like I've said, Masonry is a quasi-religious organization. There's a lot of stuff in their ritual about God as the "Supreme Architect of the Universe." Heaven is sometimes referred to as the "perfect Lodge."

Still, quite a few freethinkers and rationalists have been Masons, and I'm sure more than a few atheists have joined. It's not like they're going to spy on you and make sure you're going to church or anything. I think some guys who aren't really theists enjoy the ritual, the symbolism, the social aspects, the charity work, and the moral/ethical teachings of Masonry and so play along with the God thing so they can be part of the other stuff.

[Kenneth]

Power corrupts; Absolute power corrupts absolutely!

I guess if the world were to end today, that would be the legacy of the Mason. In every revolutionary countries, the Masons have played important part. In the French Revolutions, the Chinese Revolutions, the Philippine Revolution and, I believe, even the American Revolution have plenty of revolutionaries who were masons.

But as with any other group, once they came to power, they become the group they ousted. In a simile I like to use, once they slay the ogre; they become an ogre themselves.

During the French Revolution, they popularize Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. But soon after, they drop Equality by inventing titles like Grand Wizard, Emperor of the World, and some more crap.

[Gregg]

Good grief. Chill out. Titles in Freemasonry have about as much meaning as "Grand Poo-bah." If anything, they kind of poke fun at real royal titles.

And where have Masons ever gained "absolute power" ? I wasn't aware that Napoleon was a Mason. On the other hand, the Marquis de Lafayette was, and he firmly supported representative government in France and never gave his endorsement to Napoleon.

In the U.S., presidents with Masonic ties have included George Washington, James Garfield, Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, and Gerald Ford. Powerful men all, but with the possible exception of Washington, I doubt their Masonic backgrounds had much of anything to do with their
becoming President.

Nowadays Masonry isn't much more than a social club and charitable organization. It doesn't wield nearly as much influence as it used to.Originally posted by Kenneth
Power corrupts; Absolute power corrupts absolutely!

I guess if the world were to end today, that would be the legacy of the Mason. In every revolutionary countries, the Masons have played important part. In the French Revolutions, the Chinese Revolutions, the Philippine Revolution and, I believe, even the American Revolution have plenty of revolutionaries who were masons.

But as with any other group, once they came to power, they become the group they ousted. In a simile I like to use, once they slay the ogre; they become an ogre themselves.

During the French Revolution, they popularize Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. But soon after, they drop Equality by inventing titles like Grand Wizard, Emperor of the World, and some more crap.

[TheRealityOfMan]

Originally posted by Gregg
Well, like I've said, Masonry is a quasi-religious organization. There's a lot of stuff in their ritual about God as the "Supreme Architect of the Universe." Heaven is sometimes referred to as the "perfect Lodge."

Still, quite a few freethinkers and rationalists have been Masons, and I'm sure more than a few atheists have joined. It's not like they're going to spy on you and make sure you're going to church or anything. I think some guys who aren't really theists enjoy the ritual, the symbolism, the social aspects, the charity work, and the moral/ethical teachings of Masonry and so play along with the God thing so they can be part of the other stuff.

OK but I am still curious as to why God-belief is so important in freemasonry. Why is this a prerequisite to fraternal brotherhood? Maybe a lot of the mysticism is a parody of some very old lore, so why do you have to believe in a God to get the most out of this?

[Gregg]

Originally posted by TheRealityOfMan
OK but I am still curious as to why God-belief is so important in freemasonry. Why is this a prerequisite to fraternal brotherhood? Maybe a lot of the mysticism is a parody of some very old lore, so why do you have to believe in a God to get the most out of this? Beats the hell outta me, man! :)

[Valdemar]

Originally posted by jj
Any number of people with information on this subject have told you that what you experienced wasn't what you thought it was.


You are correct! And this person ISN'T one of them:

Yo, dude, somebody was yanking your chain.

"Yo, dude." That's the extent of your information on the subject?

I dare say that several people have stated something more than opinion. I won't doubt that what you say happened did in fact happen, but I intensely doubt that it was what your friends made it out to be.

And I trust that what Gregg has said is correct, since he does seem to have a grasp of what occurs in the DeMolay. Your "intense doubt" means absolutely nothing to me. And since he has apologized to me, I value his opinion even more. Yours, however, to me is more like: Proverbs 17:28.

[Gregg]

Although I'm a lapsed Mason and didn't attend many meetings, I know I was never told I had to protect other Masons from prosecution or conviction. I'm not sure where your Masonic friend got that information.

Freemasonry used to be a lot more powerful than it is today, but I sincerely doubt it was ever as powerful as some people claim it is. If Masons really were involved in some kind of worldwide protection racket or conspiracy, it shouldn't be that tough to find some solid evidence for it. That a judge would go easy on an accused or convicted person just because he's a fellow Mason is disturbing, but it's not evidence of some kind of global cabal. That's getting into Illuminati and Elders of Zion territory.

Masonry has included members as diverse as Kweisi Mfume, director of the NAACP, and Strom Thurmond. Thurgood Marshall and Jesse Helms. Masons work vigorously against each other's non-Masonic interests all the time.

Basically what Masonry says is that we can have a lot of differences, even major differences, while still sharing some basic ideals and principles and treating each other with tolerance and respect. (No, not all Masons manage to do that, but oh well.) Most Lodges try to leave divisive talk of politics and religion outside the Lodge.

Some Masons have advocated dropping the hidebound ritual. Personally I wish they'd do that and also accept atheists. If they did that I might rejoin.Originally posted by spence
About thirty years ago I was thrown in jail for drunk driving. My girlfriend told a neighbor who was a mason. The Masonic neighbor went down there an did his funny handshake or something with the Constable and out I was.

My good experiences aside, I have some serious concerns with the organisation. First of all, an extremely disproportionate large number of law enforcement, secret service and espionage agents are members of Freemasonry. The Masonic neighbor told me that Masons are required to protect their bretheren from conviction and that many judges are Masons.
Given these circumstances, in spite of the fact that most Masons are decent folks, even do-gooders, whomever is at the top of this organisation has underneath him a protection pyramid. They could get by with just about anything. What if they are the ruling elite? Or the military-industrial establishment? Just because their underlings are OK people doesn't mean the hierarchy isn't run like a worldwide crime syndicate.

Fremasonry must not be a Christian organisation since it also has Jewish members. I think you're expected to believe in a "supreme being" to be a member.

Here's an anti- Masonic site, I don't know how accurate it's claims are but many of it's assertions fit in to the many bits and pieces I've gathered about them over the years.

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/index.html