Christian missionaries converting "Savages" in the New World

[OnlyHuman]

Hi, Everyone!

I am new to this, so please bear with me. I was reading through the thread "Please take this challenge..." (I did not read ALL of it yet) and found it interesting that the evangelical Christians don't see their evangelizing as destroying someone else's worldview, even though atheists are accused of trying to destroy Christianity or weakening someone's personal beliefs. This got me thinking about the Native Americans in the Western Hemisphere (the "New World", if you will). How many of those people were killed or forced from their home in the name of Christianity (which was usually a front for European greed)? It bothers me that many times these people were seen as "savages", or barely better than the beasts, to these Christian settlers. I see many references to the Crusades on this site (have not surfed much), but little on the impact of Christianity and the genocide that resulted from its spreading to the "New World".

Just wanted to hear from some of you on this topic.

Thanks

[Mageth]

Indeed, what was done to the Native Americans was a tragedy.

But this does give me a chance to post one of my favorite quotes:

"The missionaries go forth to Christianize the savages--as if the savages weren't dangerous enough already."

-Edward Abbey

[Hyndis]

I don't think the exact numbers will ever be known, but thanks to the efforts to spread the "good word" of the Christian god, upwards of 20 million people were killed in the area of what is now the United States.

This is through disease, bullets, starvation, and good old fashioned forced marches and death camps. (No gas chambers, but forcing thousands of people to live on a tiny patch of desolate desert has the same effect. Especially when they are not allowed to leave under pain of death, due to US troops around the reservations.)

Because of course god gave man (white landholding men only) dominion over all of the beasts (brown skinned people) of the world, and thus, all of those pious white men had to civilize the savage, evil, nature-worshipping natives. :rolleyes: :mad:

[sparklecat]

Interestingly enough, in my anthropology class, we had a discussion on whether or not missionaries destroy cultures- the general feeling was that yes, they do, but only those parts that are "bad" because they go against the Bible. The honesty was appreciated, at least.

My prof's frequent rants against evolution and Darwin do get on my nerves, though...

[Queen of Swords]

Was it Jomo Kenyatta who said,

"When the missionaries came to Africa, we had the land and they had the bible. They taught us to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened our eyes, we had the bible and they had the land."

[Soul Invictus]

Close, but it was actually Bishop Desmond Tutu who made this remark which states:

When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.

Regards,

Soul Invictus

[spurly]

Originally posted by OnlyHuman
Hi, Everyone!

I am new to this, so please bear with me. I was reading through the thread "Please take this challenge..." (I did not read ALL of it yet) and found it interesting that the evangelical Christians don't see their evangelizing as destroying someone else's worldview, even though atheists are accused of trying to destroy Christianity or weakening someone's personal beliefs. This got me thinking about the Native Americans in the Western Hemisphere (the "New World", if you will). How many of those people were killed or forced from their home in the name of Christianity (which was usually a front for European greed)? It bothers me that many times these people were seen as "savages", or barely better than the beasts, to these Christian settlers. I see many references to the Crusades on this site (have not surfed much), but little on the impact of Christianity and the genocide that resulted from its spreading to the "New World".

Just wanted to hear from some of you on this topic.

Thanks

This was a sad time indeed for Christianity. The problem with Christianity is not with God, however, it is with people who don't live a life that embodies everything that God is. Please don't judge God on those who claim to represent him, but do not.

Kevin

[Hyndis]

Originally posted by spurly
This was a sad time indeed for Christianity. The problem with Christianity is not with God, however, it is with people who don't live a life that embodies everything that God is. Please don't judge God on those who claim to represent him, but do not.

Kevin

But this god doesn't seem to make personal appearances anymore, so the only sources are those of people who claim to represent this god.

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by spurly
Please don't judge God on those who claim to represent him, but do not.


Is your imploration extended to God fearing peoples not limited to being Christian? (i.e. Buddhists, Muslims, etc)

[Mageth]

Originally posted by spurly
This was a sad time indeed for Christianity. The problem with Christianity is not with God, however, it is with people who don't live a life that embodies everything that God is.

And yet, according to your Christian beliefs, if those who commit such atrocities simply ask your God for forgiveness, they will be forgiven and restored to equal standing before God as you or anyone else who would never commit such atrocities.

I agree the problem with Christianity is not with God. No one's judging God here. It's not simply with the people, either. The problem with Christianity is, of course, with Christianity.

Chrisitianity is a religion that is based on basic human depravity, guilt, helplessness, and a perceived unique and exclusive access to the method of reconciliation with their view of God and thus salvation, a method which is exclusive of all other religions, condemning all non-believers in their dogma to rejection and punishment by their God, a method which is based on a violent propensity of their God for humans to die for their sins, and a method which Christians are commanded by their God to take into all the world and preach to every creature.

With such dogma at its core, it is not surprising at all that all sorts of horrors have been committed in the name of the Christian God. As long as the "people" of Christianity hold these beliefs, and I speak of all Christians who hold to these beliefs, then the threat of such barbarism will remain among us.

Much of the same can be said, of course, of the other Abrahamic religions, but if you examine the history of the Abrahamic religions you will discover that Christianity has stressed its exclusive dogma far more than even Islam.

Please don't judge God on those who claim to represent him, but do not.

The problem with that is that it is impossible to determine who does and who does not represent the Chrisitian God. He, after all, is supposed to be the same God depicted in the OT that inundates the earth, allows Job to suffer, and commands his chosen people to commit various acts of genocide (perhaps on Prozac, but the same God nonetheless). And he is also supposed to be the same God depicted in Revelation, that again brings his wrath on the recalcitrant earth.

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by spurly
Please don't judge God on those who claim to represent him, but do not.

Everyone claims to represent God, spurly. At some point I thought, "hey, if there really was a god, he would have done something about these No True Christians claiming to represent him."

[TomboyMom]

The problem with Christianity is not with God, however, it is with people who don't live a life that embodies everything that God is. Please don't judge God on those who claim to represent him, but do not.
Two problems with these kind of statements:
(1) By the same token, when Christians do good things, the credit should be given to them, not to their God or religion.
(2) These were not just Christians who happened to do bad things. They did them in the name and furtherance of Christianity. There is a problem with a religion that inspires its adherents to commit atrocities in its name and to further its purposes.

Rene

[Starboy]

Originally posted by spurly
This was a sad time indeed for Christianity. The problem with Christianity is not with God, however, it is with people who don't live a life that embodies everything that God is. Please don't judge God on those who claim to represent him, but do not.

Kevin

That sounds great and all, but there is no god anywhere to be found to judge. All we got is those that claim to be following god.

Starboy

[Starboy]

Originally posted by OnlyHuman
This got me thinking about the Native Americans in the Western Hemisphere (the "New World", if you will). How many of those people were killed or forced from their home in the name of Christianity (which was usually a front for European greed)?

From accounts I have read, there were certainly many that were killed in the name of god but the vast majority were killed by European diseases and alcohol. The number killed by intolerance (religious or otherwise), inhumanity, greed and hate is small in comparison.

Starboy

[Gothic_J]

Im as much for bashing christians as the next man, but can you blame the diseases on the europeans? I am unsure they intentionally went around to plague people on more then a sporadic basis.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Gothic_J
Im as much for bashing christians as the next man, but can you blame the diseases on the europeans? I am unsure they intentionally went around to plague people on more then a sporadic basis.

That is an interesting question. Were there Europeans that were savvy enough to connect the diseases of the continent with the diseases that were circulating among the savages and decimating their numbers? My bet is that some were smart enough to know since quarantine was practiced even then. I am willing to bet that there were those that saw a connection and did nothing to stop it. They probably rationalized it as some sort of divine intervention. It would have been easy to do if they were willing to see the natives as being somewhat less than human. Also I would be willing to bet that all of those that did know and did nothing to stop it were dyed in the wool Christians.

Starboy

[Mageth]

Considering that allegedly the British and the U.S. Army deliberately handed out smallpox-infested blankets to some Native Americans in an early form of "germ warfare", the disease excuse is a little weak.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/coldwar/pox_weapon_01.shtml

In the 18th century, the British fought France and its Indian allies for possession of what was to become Canada during the French and Indian Wars (1754-63). At the time of the Pontiac rebellion in 1763, Sir Jeffrey Amherst, the Commander-in-Chief of the British forces in North America, wrote to Colonel Henry Bouquet: 'Could it not be contrived to send smallpox among these disaffected tribes of Indians? We must use every stratagem in our power to reduce them.' The colonel replied: 'I will try to inoculate the [Native American tribe] with some blankets that may fall in their hands, and take care not to get the disease myself.' Smallpox decimated the Native Americans, who had never been exposed to the disease before and had no immunity.

http://academic.udayton.edu/health/syllabi/Bioterrorism/00intro02.htm

[from] Ann F. Ramenofsky, Vectors of Death: The Archaeology of European Contact (Albuquerque, NM: University of New Mexico Press, 1987):

"Among Class I agents, Variola major holds a unique position. Although the virus is most frequently transmitted through droplet infection, it can survive for a number of years outside human hosts in a dried state (Downie 1967; Upham 1986). As a consequence, Variola major can be transmitted through contaminated articles such as clothing or blankets (Dixon 1962). In the nineteenth century, the U.S. Army sent contaminated blankets to Native Americans, especially Plains groups, to control the Indian problem" (Stearn and Stearn 1945). [p. 148]

[Starboy]

Onward Christian soldiers!

Starboy