Koran predicts cats eye nebula!!!

[SkepticBoyLee]

Astoninshiing Mulsim prophecy!!

Ok. Im debating this guy on another board. Armed with many articles on II debunking Koran "science" as well as other stuff on the internet that Ive read and remembered or saved as well as the given that religio is fucking bullshit anyways.

Here is the verse thats "proof" that the Cats Eye Nebula was mentioned in the Koran.

Quran Science it is..let's get the ball rolling shall we...

The first proof I would like to put forward is the fact that the Quran describes what nebula formations look like, even though it would have been physically impossible to know of this information.

Surah Ar-Rahman-The Most Affectionate

Verses 37 and 38

"And when the sky will be split it will become rose like red hide"
"Which then of the favours of your Lord do you deny?"

Below is a picture of the 'Cat's Eye Nebula' as seen from the Hubble Telescope.

http://www.bensys.mcmail.com/nebula.jpg

Doing some extra research from NASA's official website, here (http://www.nasa.gov), reveal the Cat's Eye Nebula to be one of the most complex nebula systems found. More info can be found here.A brief description. (http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/ABSTRACTS/GPN-2000-000955.html)

After an argment where I point out the vagueness of the "prophecy" he replys with this:

Please, you know perfectly well this is a valid proof, if you would have bothered to check the links, you would also have found out that the Cats' Eye Nebula is also a dying formation, which is what our planetary system will look like when it is destroyed, hence the part where it says 'when the sky is torn apart'. This isn't twisted, how can it be?. There was absolutely no way that this formation can be seen from the Earth's surface without technology. Yet in the Quran it's still given a description..science is catching up..

Quran reveals verse description 1400 years ago.

Science develops to technology to confirm it.

And that is a fact.

You can't expect people to understand such advancements 1400 years ago..

"Another point that I'd like to mention is that if you tear away on thing from another..in this case the sky from the Earth...in physics, it dictates that this 'object' that moves away from something in a relative way (the Earth in this case), emits an electromagnetic wave in the visible spectrum..known as Doppler RED Shift, something that you should be familiar with..so if the sky moves/torn away from the Earth, it'll emit an electromagnetic wave to the people observing on the Earth..in surprise surprise, the red end of the spectrum. It's how we know the Universe is expanding..something the Quran also highlights...

Anyway, I've explained my point in reasonable depth, people in the comment thread are getting agitated, so we'll move on...

Time for you to bring an arguement vitligo-rider..tit for tat.. "

[The Defenestrator]

Originally posted by SkepticBoyLee
"[...]if you tear away on thing from another..in this case the sky from the Earth...in physics, it dictates that this 'object' that moves away from something in a relative way (the Earth in this case), emits an electromagnetic wave in the visible spectrum..known as Doppler RED Shift[...]so if the sky moves/torn away from the Earth, it'll emit an electromagnetic wave to the people observing on the Earth..in surprise surprise, the red end of the spectrum[...]"

Now all we need is some way to tear the air off Earth at reletivistic velocity...:rolleyes:

[atheist]

I don't think that passage refers to the Cat's Eye Nebula at all, and as to describing what nebula formations look like: How many nebulae have we found that looks like the Cat's Eye Nebula? Also, how can anyone be sure that when our sun dies, that it will look anything like the Cat's Eye (or rose like red hide)? Pehaps somebody from "Bad Astronomy" could help you there.

Now, I'm not sure what the original Arabic is, before translation, but using the English 'rosy' or 'rose' could be an example of an equivocation fallacy, no? I mean, if it looks like a rose, why not just say "a rose", instead of something like "a spanked ass"? The translation of the Quran that I have says that the sky turns "rosy like the dregs of annointing oil" (translated by Ahmed Ali).

Anyway, it sound more like the Quran trying to reconcile with science, not science catching up. I really wonder if Muslims 100 years ago knew that the Universe is expanding, or if making such a claim would cause some sort of fatwa to be issued: like that the Earth is flat (http://www.google.ca/search?q=fatwa+%22earth+is+flat%22)!

Don't know if I've been much help, but good luck!

[LeftCoast]

Another thing, the photo shown is a composite-color photo. Here's the blurb i found describing that picture:
from here (http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/gif/NGC6543a.txt)
This color picture, taken with the Wide Field Planetary Camera-2, is a
composite of three images taken at different wavelengths. (red,
hydrogen-alpha; blue, neutral oxygen, 6300 angstroms; green, ionized
nitrogen, 6584 angstroms). The image was taken on September 18, 1994.
NGC 6543 is 3,000 light-years away in the northern constellation
Draco.


I'm not sure what the cats-eye nebula looks like when viewed only in visible light, but I'm sure that it's nothing like that picture.

[SkepticBoyLee]

I thought so but wasnt sure. Does that mean that they use artificial colors to highlight different aspects of the image??

[Autonemesis]

Originally posted by SkepticBoyLee
I thought so but wasnt sure. Does that mean that they use artificial colors to highlight different aspects of the image??

The rose-colored rendition by the Hubble team is false color, to enhance details (or to tempt people to Satan, or something). To the eye, through a telescope, it's a vivid electric blue-turquoise. Here's a amateur image that shows it with a more natural color balance:
http://home.comcast.net/~jeboud/ccd_ngc6543.jpg

This image was taken with a amateur-level CCD camera using continuum filters for red, green and blue, instead of emission-line filters as in the Hubble image.

The CCD camera is much more sensitive to red light than the human eye. The red fringes at either end are only visible in long exposure images. Except for that, this image is pretty well representative of what the eye would see at a large amateur telescope, with a 16" or larger mirror, at high power.

Oh, and here's a rendition of the same Hubble image in lime green, rather than rose:
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/THUMB/GPN-2000-000955.jpg (http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-000955.jpg)

[SkepticBoyLee]

BOOOYAW!! Just what I wanted.

Thanks Auto!!


This is why I love II!!!

[Arctic]

Oh, didn't you know? The Koran predicts everything in science! That's what the Muslims tell me anyhow. :rolleyes:

[Howard]

Skeptic,
Ask your Muslim opponent to do two things:
1) Use the Koran to point to some as yet undiscovered phenomenon.
2) Give an example of the Koran ever being used to point people to new scientific discoveries

The “science� of the Koran is like the “prophecy� of the Bible. They are both invariably after-the-fact. Something will happen or be discovered, and Christians/Muslims will run to their holy texts, interpret a few passages to match what is already known, and say, “See? It’s just like the Bible/Koran says.�.

But they never tell us anything new or something that will happen

[NeverByte]

Granted, the nebula in that photo does kinda look a bit like a rose. However... I see no resemblence to anything remotely like ointment. Perhaps the poster in question could remove that little fly...:D

[SkepticBoyLee]

Oh I squashed him on thatone. The pciture of the nebula through the GREEN filter was enough to prove that the colors were artificial and therefore the "Like a red rose" bullshit was just that...bullshit.


However there is one that is quite spooky.

Surah 56 verse 26

[56:26] Verily, We sent Our Messengers with manifest Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance that people may act with justice; and We sent down iron, wherein is material for violent warfare and diverse uses for mankind, and that Allah may know those who help Him and His Messengers without having seen Him. Surely, Allah is Powerful, Mighty.

This is the surah NAMED IRON, and the first time IRON IS MENTIONED is in this verse

56 is the atomic weight of Iron

26 is the atomic number....

This was 1400 years ago.... Explain...

Coincidence, right?


anyone got anything on this one???

[MagicBrowser]

When searching for this verse, here's what I got:

There they hear no vulgarities nor encounter sinfulness;

[atheist]

I'm just making this up as a go along, so I'm not trying to suggest you use any of the examples I come up with. It might spark some other ideas, though.

from "The Cattle" (Al-An'am)
[6:66] This (Book) has been called by your people a falsehood though it is the truth.

Revelations 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


666! Is the Quran the mark of the beast that Revelations refers to? Is Muhammad the Antichrist? :eek:

Hmm. Any other "significant" numbers people can think of that we could use to find interesting coincidences?

[atheist]

It's in book 57, not 56! Anyway, they seem to take liberties with a lot of 'creative' mathmatics to arrive at these "amazing" numbers:
http://fakir60.tripod.com/manifest_sign_of_iron.htm

edited to add:

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Fe/key.html

Fe atomic weight: 55.845

[lpetrich]

I wonder when Muslims will start claiming that evolution and natural selection are both described in the Koran.

[Incoherent fool]

56 is the atomic weight of Iron

Actually, the atomic weight of iron is 55.847 amu, not 56.

[Mughal]

Cosmology in the quran is discused

here (http://www.muslimsandislamic.faithweb.com/photo4.html)


And the sura we are discussing is 57, not 56.

[MagicBrowser]

Originally posted by Incoherent fool
Actually, the atomic weight of iron is 55.847 amu, not 56.

That would be the average atomic mass. The most common one isotope has an atomic mass of 56 :)

[demoninho]

Originally posted by lpetrich
I wonder when Muslims will start claiming that evolution and natural selection are both described in the Koran.

http://www.salaam.co.uk/knowledge/al-jahiz.php

:D

[SkepticBoyLee]

Thanks for your help guys. Im shooting these things down very convincingly and impressing onlookers.

Especially happy with this becuase some of the people on that board who were frusterated with christian bullshit were thinking of exploring Islam. I wanted to show them its just as dogmatic and foolish as christinaity is and I think Im doing a good job.

You guys got any help for this one??

Surah Al Ambia or 'The Prophets'

[21:30]

"Did the infidels not consider that the heavens and the Earth were closed up, then We opened them out? And we made every living thing from water. Will they then believe?"




The first past of the sentence we'll leave out because that's more to do with the universe expanding (corroborated by other verses) and we'll concetrate on the second part.

"And we made every living thing from water"

No metaphors or allegorical stuff here. Just stating facts. A fact which would have had massive implications at the time because both North/South America and Australia were yet to be discovered and there are species specifically unique to those respective areas. And the fact that Arabia was mostly desert. And the fact that micro-organisms weren't found due to lack of microscopes, etc. So in the context of the time this was revealed, it was a massive statement to make. Kind of a parallel to pre-Galilean attitudes that the Earth was the centre of the universe (not in Islam, of course). So what do you think Pale?..Do you think this was made up even though they excluded half of the world that was yet to be discovered?...Oh wait..it's just a metaphor...lol...the statement above is pretty clear cut..interested in your comments as always...

[atheist]

"And we made every living thing from water"


Why would people need divine oration to realise how important water is to life (especially in the desert!)? There is an obvious correlation, and it was realised long before the Quran was ever revealed. Lucky for Islam that, in this case, the correlation actually does 'hold some water'. :) However, how is saying that life is made from water different from saying that life is made from coal? Surely, carbon is just as essential as water is, as are the many other elements and compounds that life depends on. Did Muhummad, or the people around him, not know about these things? Probably not, which is reason to suspect why the Quran only reveals the obvious (like water being essential to life), but ignores the rest (which is just as important).

Good luck!

[SkepticBoyLee]

Yeah. I found some stuff on The secular web about how the Arabs got all that stuff from the greek.


Creation of all things from water was a staple Greek idea originating with Thales (and with probable antecedents in Egyptian and Babylonian mythologies). Other presocratics developed the idea that all life, including man, originated from primitive fish that crawled onto land.

These ideas predated the Koran by hundreds of years.



http://www.abu.nb.ca/Courses/GrPhil/Thales.htm (Thales idea that all life came form water)



Then he says he said "Greek philosophy was completely disregarded in pre-Islamic Arabian culture. "


So I use this from the sec web..

The works of the Greeks were known in the Arab and North African world for a thousand years before Islam, and Islam began translating Greek texts into Arabic within a century of its military conquests. Greek Hellenic culture had long since spread into and affected popular beliefs, even among illiterate peoples, throughout and beyond the Roman Empire, even down the East Coast of Africa, in many cases reinforced by the introduction of the new Romano-Hellenic philosophy of Christianity. Jews and Christians were extensively Hellenized, and Islam sprung from these very same religious traditions. Even India knew about Greek astronomical works in the first century A.D., having partially translated them into royal languages. Anyone who knows the history of the conquests of Alexander the Great and his successors knows that Greeks and their culture had been firmly rooted and spread throughout the world all the way to Afghanistan, the Ganges river, especially Syria and Persia, but even to Arabia itself. Greek influence on Egypt and Carthage, and even direct colonization, was extensive and spread throughout North Africa over a millennium before the rise of Islam. Oral culture, begun from the speeches of philosophers and rhetors, the songs of poets, and the sermons of preachers and holy men, transmitted a simplified Hellenic-Zoroastrian cosmology throughout the peoples of the Western and Middle-Eastern world at the time.

Many of the first Muslims would have been very familiar with Greek language and Greco-Roman education long before they decided to translate texts. The Muslims used Greek for all their administrative documents until the beginning of the 8th century. By the time the Koran was written, all of the Arabic world had been under the domination of the Greek Byzantine Empire for centuries, and had been settled by Greeks since the invasion of Alexander the Great a thousand years before. Indeed, it would have been impossible for Arabs in the 7th century not to know of Greek ideas, since they would already have known many Greeks, they would have traded and worked and gone to school in Greek cities, and served in Greek armies and administrations, for centuries. Just as Europeans learned and read from Latin and Greek, despite speaking other languages, for over a thousand years before anyone thought to start translating books into local languages, so the Arabs used Greek as the language of the educated administrator until their devotion to the native language of their holy book, and the destruction of Greco-Roman power, drew them to transform the written tradition they had inherited. Hence, Arabs knew many Greek ideas, and had known them for many centuries before Islam arose. This is why the burden is on the Muslim to show you anything in the Koran that was not already standard knowledge or educated belief in the Mediterranean world when the Koran was written. Until they do so, and do so competently, we are fully justified in ignoring their assertions to the contrary.

Of course, it is claimed that Muhammad was uneducated, and thus the fact that he knew sophisticated ideas, or even writing itself, is miraculous. Besides the fact that this cannot be even remotely proven (the historical documents concerning Muhammad are murky at best), from what we do know the claim is implausible. He was born to a rich and powerful family who controlled the influential trade city of Mecca, which had major and regular connections with Byzantine Egypt, Syria-Palestine, and Persia, all bastions of ancient Hellenized cultures. It is inconceivable that a child of a powerful and wealthy mercantile family, even raised by relatives, would not have received an education. Moreover, Mecca was already populated with large quarters of Hellenized Jews and Christians, with whom Muhammad would have had ample oral contact. Not only is it more than possible for Muhammad to have learned writing and many other Greco-Persian ideas, it is almost certain. There really is no way to prove otherwise, for legend has all but buried the facts.




:boohoo: :boohoo: Poor guy.

[Starboy]

That is very funny. Most planetary nebula of that type are dumbbell shaped. The so called cat's eye is also dumbbell shaped but the top of the dumbbell is almost face on. The actual color is not very red. A very, very light pink is more like it, but like all colored astrophotos the color was added to enhanced the structure of the object. In some sense astrophotos are both art and science. There is a good deal of interpretation when it comes to the colors shown in the images.

Starboy