Why do humans even exist?

[atechnie]

I'm kind of new to this forums, but I've skimmed the last couple of pages for a thread like this. If I glossed over an older thread, then please lock this and direct me to that one. :)

Okay, why did God create humans in the first place? So he can send some of them to hell?* Why did he create sorrow? Why did he create the galaxy? Wasn't he happy living with himself? Did he become lonely? Why? Why? Why????

*Personally, I can't understand the notion of a just and merciful God when He creates people KNOWING that they'll choose to go to hell. For example, if I knew that sending my friend to Europe would mean that she'd die, PERIOD, then would you call me merciful and just for sending her there for no purpose whatsoever????

Discuss.

atechnie

[ex-xian]

I think you'd be more likely to get responsed in GRD.

[Hyndis]

You'll find that there are no end to these bizzare contradictions in Christianity.


The problem of evil is a big one.

Why would an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god cause evil to happen? And because this god can do ANYTHING and knows EVERYTHING, there is nothing that is ever a surprise. And thus, god must have intended for many billions of people to be tortured for all eternity.

And then there's the idea of an eternal, perfect god that just decides to create the universe one day.

What was this god doing before that? If this god is perfect, then this god cannot become bored. And nor can this god change, for it it changes, it becomes either more or less perfect, and thus, it wasn't perfect to start out with. And so that essentially ties the hands of god and puts the old man in the sky in eternal stasis. Any actions require a change, and if god cannot change, god cannot take any actions.


From what I get from Christianity, god is like a vindictive person playing a game of SimUniverse. Build things up, make your puppets dance, and then smash them to pieces on a whim.

So, according to the bible, the Christian god is evil or imperfect. Pick one, but you must pick one option.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by atechnie

*Personally, I can't understand the notion of a just and merciful God when He creates people KNOWING that they'll choose to go to hell. For example, if I knew that sending my friend to Europe would mean that she'd die, PERIOD, then would you call me merciful and just for sending her there for no purpose whatsoever????

Discuss.

atechnie What, are you asking if there's a purpose to our existence? That's a question usually reserved for those arguing in favor of a creator.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by atechnie
I'm kind of new to this forums, but I've skimmed the last couple of pages for a thread like this. If I glossed over an older thread, then please lock this and direct me to that one. :)

Okay, why did God create humans in the first place? So he can send some of them to hell?* Why did he create sorrow? Why did he create the galaxy? Wasn't he happy living with himself? Did he become lonely? Why? Why? Why????

*Personally, I can't understand the notion of a just and merciful God when He creates people KNOWING that they'll choose to go to hell. For example, if I knew that sending my friend to Europe would mean that she'd die, PERIOD, then would you call me merciful and just for sending her there for no purpose whatsoever????

Discuss.

atechnie God is love. By being love, God wants to share His Glory and wonders with others. He wanted (note:not needed) people to share in a relationship with Him. To have a relationship however, the love between two people can't be forced. In other words, God wasn't gonna create humanity with the inability to choose not to love Him ( because by the reverse, they couldn't choose to love Him). Hence where you get free will.

God didn't need anything, but creation is a result of love.

And every human on Earth has the ability to avoid Hell. Sure, God knows who will end up where, but humans don't. If you don't whether you will choose Heaven or Hell, you still possess the choice of where to end up, therefore its not up to God of where you end up, its up to you. God only knows where you will end up because you will inevitably choose to be for Him or against Him. If God never creates those who go to Hell, then He isn't creating humanity with a choice. (You wouldn't exist to make the choice if God didn't create all people, regardless of where they end up )

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Hyndis
You'll find that there are no end to these bizzare contradictions in Christianity.
The problem of evil is a big one. Only if you try to contemplate it from a human perspective, and not trust God. If you assume God doesn't have an explanation that makes sense to Him, but probably doesn't to us,then of course there is problem. ( But then again, atheists don't assume God does anything, and therefore the problem of evil to an atheist is moot).

Why would an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god cause evil to happen? And because this god can do ANYTHING and knows EVERYTHING, there is nothing that is ever a surprise. And thus, god must have intended for many billions of people to be tortured for all eternity. God didn't cause moral evil to happen, and the Bible disagrees with you on Him intending humans to end up in Hell ( also, false assumption that humanity would be brutally tortured for all eternity - God is not sitting in Hell stretching sinners on a Rack)




So, according to the bible, the Christian god is evil or imperfect. Pick one, but you must pick one option. Ah, I see, so because you declare there are only 2 options, then there can only possibily be 2 options? Is that how atheist logic works? Well, being the theist that I am, and not following the "logic of the arrogant", I opt for option C - none of the above.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by Magus55
God is love.

OK, I'll run with that equation in this post.

Is God love because "love" is some external principle which God can be compared to and that thus dictates what God is, or is "love" love because it is from God? ;)

By being love, God wants to share His Glory and wonders with others.

So love can want, and love has the attributes of "glory and wonder"? Interesting stuff, this love.

He wanted (note:not needed) people to share in a relationship with Him.

So love (god is love, remember) wants people to share in a relationship with love?

To have a relationship however, the love between two people can't be forced. In other words, God wasn't gonna create humanity with the inability to choose not to love Him ( because by the reverse, they couldn't choose to love Him). Hence where you get free will.

So love didn't create people with the inability to choose not to love love. Hence, we get free will. And you wonder why we find this so...confusing.

God didn't need anything, but creation is a result of love.

Well, God is love, so you could say that Love didn't need anything, but creation is a result of God.

And I'm confused about the difference between a "want" and a "need". A fine, semantical distinction, with special significance for God (err...I mean "love"), I suppose.

And every human on Earth has the ability to avoid Hell. Sure, God knows who will end up where, but humans don't. If you don't whether you will choose Heaven or Hell, you still possess the choice of where to end up, therefore its not up to God of where you end up, its up to you.

It's not up to love where we'll end up...

We've gone over this one before, Magus. I have not ever, am not now, and will not ever, choose to end up in Hell. Therefore, for me to wind up there, Love is going to have to put me there. Think about that.

God only knows where you will end up because you will inevitably choose to be for Him or against Him.

Bzzzt. I cannot choose to be for or against something that I do not believe exists. It's impossible. I am neither for nor against Santa Claus, for example.

If God never creates those who go to Hell, then He isn't creating humanity with a choice.

So Love creates humans that Love knows will go to Hell so that Love can create humanity with a choice.

Love has a dreadful lack of imagination. And is kinda mean, to boot.

(You wouldn't exist to make the choice if God didn't create all people, regardless of where they end up )

And if Love would not have created Hell, no one would end up there. And I find it hard to swallow that Love created Hell, for whatever reason.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by Magus55
Only if you try to contemplate it from a human perspective, and not trust God.

In any case, our only option is to contemplate "it" from a human perspective - we have to do so, for example, to determine if a God exists, and if so what that God is and if we can trust said God. No one, not even you, blindly trusts God (at least I sure hope you don't).

If you assume God doesn't have an explanation that makes sense to Him, but probably doesn't to us,then of course there is problem.

Conversely, you are assuming God does have an explanation that makes sense. You are as much in the dark on such "explanations" as anyone, and thus cannot claim that he does have an explanation that makes sense.

( But then again, atheists don't assume God does anything, and therefore the problem of evil to an atheist is moot).

The PoE is an argument that some use against a particular definition of God. As such, it is not moot just because the one discussing it is an atheist.

God didn't cause moral evil to happen,

That is definitely debatable. He, after all, created the whole mess with full knowledge of everything he was creating, including moral evil.

and the Bible disagrees with you on Him intending humans to end up in Hell

And it also agrees with him. God, after all, by your own admission, may have "an explanation that makes sense to Him, but probably doesn't to us" that you are not aware of. As far as you know, he may intend certain people to end up in Hell.

BTW, you disagreed with yourself on this issue in the last post when you said "If God never creates those who go to Hell, then He isn't creating humanity with a choice." In other words, you provided an explanation for why god intended some people to go to Hell.

( also, false assumption that humanity would be brutally tortured for all eternity - God is not sitting in Hell stretching sinners on a Rack)

Since you've expressed that God may "have an explanation that makes sense to Him, but probably doesn't to us", it is possible that God is indeed personally torturing people in Hell.

In any case, an omnimax being that sits by and lets people suffer in Hell for an eternity when he could put an end to it at any time if he so desired is indeed enabling, if not participating directly in, said suffering.


Ah, I see, so because you declare there are only 2 options, then there can only possibily be 2 options? Is that how atheist logic works?

Apparently Magus' logic works by extrapolating from one particular example by one particular poster to the general concept of "atheist logic", whatever that is supposed to be.

Well, being the theist that I am, and not following the "logic of the arrogant",

The ultimate in arrogance is the one who thinks he holds absolut truth and, since he is fortunate enough to do so, will end up in eternal bliss while his detractors end up inevitably in eternal suffering "by their own choice".

I opt for option C - none of the above.

I agree, the Christian God is "none of the above". "Nonexistent" should have been included as option C. ;)

[Tufted]

Humans exist because God created a universe that would have the potential for life to develop. And if developed on a planet with the right conditions, the life might evolve one day to be intelligent. These creatures would wonder where they came from , and search out their creator.

I often wonder how God scans the Universe to find evolved creatures that seek him. But once he finds them, I believe he somehow interacts with them. Hence, Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

I wonder how many other planets in the Milky Way, or other galaxies, are inhabited by creatures that communicate with God. How does he do it all at once? Are saved souls given the responsibilty to interface with others (Guardian Angels)?

I feel the presence of God in my life. Just can't understand the physics of it.

[Hyndis]

Originally posted by Tufted
I often wonder how God scans the Universe to find evolved creatures that seek him. But once he finds them, I believe he somehow interacts with them. Hence, Abraham, Moses and Jesus.



What about Osiris, The Budda, Muhammed, or L. Ron Hubbard? Aren't they also prophets? Or are they spokesmen for the "wrong" type of beliefs, so they don't count?


But that is a rather deist viewpoint, although you also try to slip in an active god, which somewhat confuses the deist viewpoint.

I'd somewhat consider myself to be a very, very, very weak deist. It may just be possibly that some deity started the whole thing, be it an omnipotent being or some creature playing with their high school physics set. But if so, this deity has done a very hands-off method of maintaining its creation. And as it isn't around and doesn't seem to exist, it might as well not exist. Agnostic deism? :confused:


But you're assuming things from a Christian viewpoint. You're assuming that this god is trying to "save" souls, and that souls even exist at all, as well as the existance of this deity. Since you're starting out with some rather profound yet completely unsupported presumptions, your conclusion seems a little weak.

[winstonjen]

Originally posted by Magus55
God is love. By being love, God wants to share His Glory and wonders with others. He wanted (note:not needed) people to share in a relationship with Him.

And if they don't 'freely' choose, he'll torture them forever. Doesn't sound very loving to me. Why does he require eternal punishment simply because he is eternal?

Originally posted by Magus55
To have a relationship however, the love between two people can't be forced. In other words, God wasn't gonna create humanity with the inability to choose not to love Him ( because by the reverse, they couldn't choose to love Him). Hence where you get free will.

God didn't need anything, but creation is a result of love.

Are you sure? He knew what would happen, so if he didn't create creation, there wouldn't be anyone in hell.

Originally posted by Magus55
And every human on Earth has the ability to avoid Hell. Sure, God knows who will end up where, but humans don't. If you don't whether you will choose Heaven or Hell, you still possess the choice of where to end up, therefore its not up to God of where you end up, its up to you. God only knows where you will end up because you will inevitably choose to be for Him or against Him. If God never creates those who go to Hell, then He isn't creating humanity with a choice. (You wouldn't exist to make the choice if God didn't create all people, regardless of where they end up )

Too bad the bible EXPLICITLY states that some are made for the SOLE purpose of going to hell. And if he KNOWS where people will end up, and creates them anyway, he is creating people that will go to hell, rather than NOT creating them and letting them deal with oblivion.

[Hyndis]

Originally posted by winstonjen
Too bad the bible EXPLICITLY states that some are made for the SOLE purpose of going to hell. And if he KNOWS where people will end up, and creates them anyway, he is creating people that will go to hell, rather than NOT creating them and letting them deal with oblivion.


Kind of like how god hardened the heart of the pharaoh, so that the pharaoh wouldn't be receptive to god? And because the pharaoh wasn't receptive to god, god had to smite Egypt many times, with plague, turning the Nile red, and killing lots of babies.

Huh? :confused:

[ex-xian]

Originally posted by Magus55
God is love. By being love, God wants to share His Glory and wonders with others. He wanted (note:not needed) people to share in a relationship with Him.
Oh, so god wanted people to relate with? Since relationship wasn't something he required, he could have lived w/o it. Well, knowing in advance that the fulfillment of his desire would result in billions and billions of people burning in hell forever and ever, isn't this kind of selfish of him?

[Tufted]

Originally posted by Hyndis
From what I get from Christianity, god is like a vindictive person playing a game of SimUniverse. Build things up, make your puppets dance, and then smash them to pieces on a whim.

So, according to the bible, the Christian god is evil or imperfect. Pick one, but you must pick one option.

Well, I if I had to pick one, I would definately pick imperfect. God is not evil.

God may be playing SimUniverse, but I don't believe he punishes the evil puppets. However, the good puppets may be rewarded to later exist in a new, more godly, existance.

As a new Christian, I find the concept of eternal hell to be totally unjust. Especially for the rational non believer. I believe God created the universe, and if he did it in a high school physics class, cool. He understands why we don't believe. And the concept of the devil - where did that come from? God created the universe, and created an evil opponent - I don't think so!

I was an A/A/D for most of my life. I'm now 59. It's impossible for me to disregard all my scientific training to even come close to accepting a fundamentalist approach to Christianity. But I have had such incredible experiences the last three years that I believe
not only that God exists, but he communicates to me. And, as I earlier said, he may have off loaded these tasks to a worker.

Hyndis,

It's difficult being me. I walk between the A/A's and Fundies. I'm attacked on all sides.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by winstonjen


Are you sure? He knew what would happen, so if he didn't create creation, there wouldn't be anyone in hell. There wouldn't be anyone in Heaven either.



Too bad the bible EXPLICITLY states that some are made for the SOLE purpose of going to hell. And if he KNOWS where people will end up, and creates them anyway, he is creating people that will go to hell, rather than NOT creating them and letting them deal with oblivion. What verse, and are you sure you're understanding it correct?

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Hyndis
Kind of like how god hardened the heart of the pharaoh, so that the pharaoh wouldn't be receptive to god? And because the pharaoh wasn't receptive to god, god had to smite Egypt many times, with plague, turning the Nile red, and killing lots of babies.

Huh? :confused: The Pharaoh's heart was already hardened before God did anything.

[Hyndis]

Originally posted by Tufted
Well, I if I had to pick one, I would definately pick imperfect. God is not evil.

God may be playing SimUniverse, but I don't believe he punishes the evil puppets. However, the good puppets may be rewarded to later exist in a new, more godly, existance.

As a new Christian, I find the concept of eternal hell to be totally unjust. Especially for the rational non believer. I believe God created the universe, and if he did it in a high school physics class, cool. He understands why we don't believe. And the concept of the devil - where did that come from? God created the universe, and created an evil opponent - I don't think so!

I was an A/A/D for most of my life. I'm now 59. It's impossible for me to disregard all my scientific training to even come close to accepting a fundamentalist approach to Christianity. But I have had such incredible experiences the last three years that I believe
not only that God exists, but he communicates to me. And, as I earlier said, he may have off loaded these tasks to a worker.

Hyndis,

It's difficult being me. I walk between the A/A's and Fundies. I'm attacked on all sides.


Satan, as known in the popular media (red guy with horns) was a creation during the medieval ages, and not something that originally existed with Christianity. Dante also wasn't living in Roman times, and his inferno greatly shaped the image of what hell is, and who/what the devil is.

But these ideas were unknown before that. The Greek underworld wasn't entirely bad; it was just the place that everyone has to inevitably go to, but over time the original version of the underworld changed into that of an eternal BDSM club with no safewords. :eek:

So as these ideas are relatively new, I wouldn't put too much weight into them. I mean, if Dante was right, wouldn't it have been a good idea to put it in the bible right away, as such images ought to have provided a far better deterant than some vauge notion of the bad version of an afterlife?


And on the issue of religion, I'm sticking with agnostic. It might very well be possible that the Christian god exists. Or maybe Ra just put his chariot in storage for a while. Or maybe there's an all-seeing invisible pink unicorn ruling things. Or a giant paramecium playing with a physics set. :D

So far there isn't any evidence towards anything except for the aetheistic version of things. And so I'm going to assume that there are no gods unless someone can prove otherwise. And if you can prove otherwise (extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence), then it would be really neat, and I'd probably convert to whatever religion that is.

The trick is getting some evidence on this point. Assuming an omnipotent god, they know what it would take to convince me. So far, I haven't been convinced of any such god, and while I'm open-minded, I also demand a bit of evidence.

I'm taking the position of just sitting back and letting the religions battle it out amongst themselves to see who's right, if anyone is. But so far I haven't seen anything impressive from religion, so I guess I'll just sit back and wait some more.

[winstonjen]

Originally posted by Magus55
There wouldn't be anyone in Heaven either.

Not so. He could cause those that would reject him to spontaneously miscarry, causing them to die before the age of accountability.

Originally posted by Magus55
What verse, and are you sure you're understanding it correct?

John 12:40 "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

Romans 9:18

"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

[mjbeam]

I'm not too worried about god sending me to hell. If he couldn't defeat an army because they had iron chariots then I bet I can take him with my kevlar and winchester.


-Mike

[rachmanfan]

The whole illogical idea of 'god is love' because god gives you a 'choice' of heaven and hell was the very first seed of doubt that eventually lead to my atheism.

A choice is: I can vote for candidate A or I can vote for Candidate B or I can choose to not vote at all. No fear of persecution whatever my choice may be.

A threat is: Vote for candidate A or burn for eternity.

Any x-ian that states god gives us a choice is misleading in their definition of 'choice'.

It is not a choice, it is a threat.

Love does not threaten. Therefore a fundy x-ian god is not love.

[Hyndis]

Its a "choice" in the sense that a man with a gun to your head asks you to do something.

You can always decide not to do what he wants...

But this idea of conditional love seems rather silly. Jesus loves you but only if you do exactly what your priest says, other conditions may apply. See Vatican for details. :rolleyes:

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Magus55
God is love.

The kind of love that burns you in hell forever.

By being love, God wants to share His Glory and wonders with others.

The angels just weren't enough (for some reason).

To have a relationship however, the love between two people can't be forced.

Which is why he promises to eternally torture anyone who doesn't love him. Oh, wait...

In other words, God wasn't gonna create humanity with the inability to choose not to love Him ( because by the reverse, they couldn't choose to love Him). Hence where you get free will.

Just as a rapist doesn't take away his victim's free will. He freely gives her the choice between having sex with him and being beaten to a pulp. If she chooses the latter, hey, it's not his fault - he did give her a choice, after all.

And every human on Earth has the ability to avoid Hell.

Even the Native Americans who lived during Jesus's time, who didn't even know what Hell was?

God only knows where you will end up because you will inevitably choose to be for Him or against Him.

How do babies or the severely mentally retarded make this choice? And if they don't make it, how can they go to heaven instead?

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Magus55
The Pharaoh's heart was already hardened before God did anything.

Well, if Pharaoh's heart was already hardened, why did God need to do anything? To make sure it stayed hard, so that God had an excuse to send more plagues?

So much for Pharaoh's free will, and so much for all that "God is love".

[ScarletBea]

I could say humans exist
because one cell started dividing itself....
or because all the conditions for life were suddenly right in this small planet of ours and we were very lucky....
or because one day an old ancestor picked up a rock and started making tools and developed the brain....

Humans are just a stage.... not the first, and I can be almost certain that it won't be the last (already kids today are taller, smarter, faster.... - although of course these things can't be seen in decades, maybe not even centuries, but far longer)

As for where God fits into this, as the thread turned to.... for me God started the first 'thingie' ever to be, then let everything be and follow it's own way, to be destroyed or to evolve, by whatever circumnstances, be it people, rock, plant or galaxy.

One book I read, that kinda blew my mind off, said we humans might be God's debris.... bits of God who destroyed himself and we're coming together to 'make him' again...... the ultimate proof....
Very interesting....

[spurly]

God created us so that he could pour out all of his love on us. That's basically what it boils down to. God is love, and we are the objects of that love. God is a hopeless romantic. He created everything in the universe for one reason - so that when the first man and woman opened their eyes they would know how much God loved them. He did all of creation, just because he knew that at the end of day 6 he would create his crown jewel - man and woman.

Kevin

[Mageth]

Originally posted by spurly
God created us so that he could pour out all of his love on us. That's basically what it boils down to. God is love, and we are the objects of that love. God is a hopeless romantic. He created everything in the universe for one reason - so that when the first man and woman opened their eyes they would know how much God loved them. He did all of creation, just because he knew that at the end of day 6 he would create his crown jewel - man and woman.

Kevin

Yet, even with all that love, God rejected and cursed his crown jewel because they ate a piece of fruit against his wishes. God's love, it seems, has always been conditional and selfish, not unconditional and unselfish.

I've had several loving relationships, and people that really love you don't do things that way. If they do, it's an indication of some inner psychological disturbance on their part.

I know, I know, God supposedly provided a way to reconcile his crown jewel into a loving relationship with him, but as was stated before, that "way" is conditional - either do it my way or I will totally reject you, and even punish you (or, for the Maguses in the crowd, allow you to "choose" to suffer, even though he could prevent that if he wanted to, which he should do, of course, if he truly did love his "crown jewel") - again not a sign of a truly loving relationship or a healthy mind.

[mjbeam]

Originally posted by spurly
God created us so that he could pour out all of his love on us. That's basically what it boils down to. God is love, and we are the objects of that love. God is a hopeless romantic. He created everything in the universe for one reason - so that when the first man and woman opened their eyes they would know how much God loved them. He did all of creation, just because he knew that at the end of day 6 he would create his crown jewel - man and woman.

Kevin
You should rewitre the bible. I think I would like your version a lot better.


-Mike

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by spurly
God created us so that he could pour out all of his love on us.

Could he pour out some evidence on us skeptical types as well?

God is love, and we are the objects of that love.

But love demands that the objects of that love reciprocate, or love will condemn them to hell for all eternity. Love.

Does that make sense to you, spurly?

God is a hopeless romantic. He created everything in the universe for one reason - so that when the first man and woman opened their eyes they would know how much God loved them.

He created the Horsehead Nebula so that when Adam and Eve opened their eyes they would know how much God loved them?

He created mosquitoes so that when Adam and Eve opened their eyes they would know how much God loved them?

If he really loved them, he wouldn't have let the serpent into the garden, the same way that if I really love my child, I won't let a manipulative, malicious stranger into my house when my child is alone there.

He did all of creation, just because he knew that at the end of day 6 he would create his crown jewel - man and woman.

God's crown jewel was two naked people who didn't even know the difference between good and evil?

Here are the angels, with all their power, and humans were his crown jewel? It's nice that you have such a high opinion of humans, but I honestly can't see how it's justified.

Edited to add : Now that I come to think about it, I don't want to be anyone's "crown jewel". It's uncomfortably like being placed on a pedestal, expected to glitter and twinkle and do little else - you don't expect a jewel to have its own thoughts or its own desires, just to look pretty.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Mageth
[B]Yet, even with all that love, God rejected and cursed his crown jewel because they ate a piece of fruit against his wishes. God's love, it seems, has always been conditional and selfish, not unconditional and unselfish.

I've had several loving relationships, and people that really love you don't do things that way. If they do, it's an indication of some inner psychological disturbance on their part. You also don't have a requirement in those relationships to uphold the law and justice. Yes God is love, but that doesn't mean He throws away every other aspect of His nature for it. God may be love, but He is Just too, and if you break the law, you face the consequences. Your analogy doesn't follow with the way the world is. If your significant other broke the law, would you turn them in, or would you decide to only love them and overlook them committing a crime?

I know, I know, God supposedly provided a way to reconcile his crown jewel into a loving relationship with him, but as was stated before, that "way" is conditional - either do it my way or I will totally reject you, and even punish you (or, for the Maguses in the crowd, allow you to "choose" to suffer, even though he could prevent that if he wanted to, which he should do, of course, if he truly did love his "crown jewel") - again not a sign of a truly loving relationship or a healthy mind. So does that mean parents can't love their children, because they say either follow my rules or get punished? I don't happen to know any parents that despite loving their children, would over look them breaking the rules, and let them do whatever the heck they want. Why would God be different when He has an infinitely higher standard to uphold than any human parent?

And this scenario isn't God saying love me or i'll torture you. If your sins aren't "covered" and washed away, you can't be in God's presence. There is only one alternative to being in God's presence, and thats being separated from Him. If you don't want to be in a room with light, what is the only alternative? A room thats dark. You either choose light or darkness. If you aren't washed of sin, you can't be in the light. You can only be in darkness.

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Magus55
So does that mean parents can't love their children, because they say either follow my rules or get punished?

If the punishment is that they brutally torture their children for one little misdeed, then they don't love their children, no.

Why would God be different when He has an infinitely higher standard to uphold than any human parent?

You'd think that he would be infinitely above abusive tactics like threatening people with eternal torture if they didn't worship him.

And this scenario isn't God saying love me or i'll torture you.

Yes, it is. If you don't love god, he punishes you with hell.

If your sins aren't "covered" and washed away, you can't be in God's presence.

You've said previously that animal sacrifices weren't perfect forgiveness, so how did Israelites be in God's presence? And what about babies? They sin too, according to you.

Moreover, if Satan could be in God's presence (book of Job), so can I.

There is only one alternative to being in God's presence, and thats being separated from Him.

Wrong. There's another alternative - oblivion. But God and his representatives seem to prefer the idea of perpetual torture.

If you don't want to be in a room with light, what is the only alternative? A room thats dark.

No, you could walk out of the room if you didn't want to be there. Man, anyone with any imagination could see ways out of these false dichotomies.

[breathilizer]

If you don't want to be in a room with light, what is the only alternative? A room thats dark.

Do you stand around worshipping lightbulbs everywhere you go?

Does the lightbulb know that your are in the room?

Did the lightbulb create the room?

[Mageth]

Originally posted by Magus55
You also don't have a requirement in those relationships to uphold the law and justice.

You're right, it's not a requirement, but certainly "upholding law and justice" in a relationship is something one should be willing to do if one wants a healthy, loving, relationship.

Yes God is love, but that doesn't mean He throws away every other aspect of His nature for it. God may be love, but He is Just too, and if you break the law, you face the consequences.

Then it is incorrect to simply claim "God is love" as you and spurly have done. God is love with a twist - God is also Dirty Harry.

Your analogy doesn't follow with the way the world is. If your significant other broke the law, would you turn them in, or would you decide to only love them and overlook them committing a crime?

We're not discussing "the way the world is" - we're discussing what is a healthy loving relationship between two entities.

You're introducing an external action by one person in a relationship into a discussion of the internal loving relationship between two people/entities. A red herring, IOW. What you're introducing here (if someone you love breaks a civil or criminal law, should you turn them in or overlook the crime?) is a different moral/ethical question.

So does that mean parents can't love their children, because they say either follow my rules or get punished?

If that is the extent of the parents' relationship with the child ("follow my rules or get punished"), then I'd seriously question the love they feel for their children, yes. Parents, in raising their children, aren't training dogs to not pee on the carpet, to heel, and to do a few tricks, after all.

I don't happen to know any parents that despite loving their children, would over look them breaking the rules, and let them do whatever the heck they want.

I've met a few, but that's an aside.

Why would God be different when He has an infinitely higher standard to uphold than any human parent?

So God's "infinitely higher standard" of rules to uphold outweighs his love, eh? "God is love" becomes "God is an administrator of an "infinitely higher standard" of rules he must uphold, punishing those who violate them (and for some, that punishment is infinite). Yet he loves us, apparently as an afterthought, or he claims to love us to assuage the guilt he feels from his compulsion to constantly administer his justice to the puppies he's trying to train to be obedient dogs that won't pee on God's heavenly carpet."

And this scenario isn't God saying love me or i'll torture you.

Yes he is.

If your sins aren't "covered" and washed away, you can't be in God's presence. There is only one alternative to being in God's presence, and thats being separated from Him.

A nice attempt at softening the blow (on us and on your own conscience), but we all know that you really consider "being separated from Him" the ultimate form of torture.

If you don't want to be in a room with light, what is the only alternative? A room thats dark.

Or outside, or in a dimly-lit room, or floating in space...

You either choose light or darkness.

There's that 'ole "you choose" canard again. Once more for the record, I have not, do not, and will not "choose darkness". If heaven and hell really exist, my choice is to go to heaven. Your God, if he exists, is going to have to send me to his hell against my choice, Magus.

If you aren't washed of sin, you can't be in the light.

If you aren't properly trained up by God to be a good doggy, you might pee on his carpet.

You can only be in darkness.

It looks pretty damn light from where I'm standing.

And I find your pronouncement to be, well, arrogant. Don't you think it's for God, and not you, to decide where I ultimately end up?

[Godless Dave]

Originally posted by atechnie
Okay, why did God create humans in the first place?

Why does a young boy collect a bunch of ants in a jar? To fry them with a magnifying glass on a sunny day.

[Godless Dave]

Originally posted by Magus55
God may be love, but He is Just too, and if you break the law, you face the consequences.

But he makes the law and determines the consequences. He could have made the law more fair and the consequences more proportional to the crime.

[spurly]

Originally posted by mjbeam
You should rewitre the bible. I think I would like your version a lot better.


-Mike

Mike,

Thanks for the compliment, but that would be too heavy of a burden for me to bear. Think of the consequence if I messed up! I would screw lots of people over.

The Bible is simply one story of God who poured out his love on his creation, had his love spurned, and then spent the rest of recorded history trying to restore that relationship. What's cool is that is just not my version of the Bible, that's THE BIBLE!

[spurly]

There is only one alternative to being in God's presence, and thats being separated from Him.

Wrong. There's another alternative - oblivion. But God and his representatives seem to prefer the idea of perpetual torture.
[/B]

There are some theologians currently doing more research on hell. They are trying to determine if our concept of hell is correct or if it is totally messed up. They are trying to determine if God does just wipe the evil out at the judment seat. I, for one, am following this theological development closely.

After all, Christians have been dead wrong in their doctrine before. They could be wrong again.

Kevin

[Godless Dave]

Originally posted by ScarletBea
As for where God fits into this, as the thread turned to.... for me God started the first 'thingie' ever to be, then let everything be and follow it's own way, to be destroyed or to evolve, by whatever circumstances, be it people, rock, plant or galaxy.

Such a God might be very distant from his creation. He might have almost as much trouble understanding us as we do him. Maybe it's difficult for him to communicate with us, and attempts to give us rules to follow were clumsy even before they were exploited by the power-hungry and the hateful.

Hypothetically.

[HereticJack]

Why do humans even exist?

Why does there have to be a "Why"?

We just are. That's it! That should suffice (and it always has for me), but humans have always used their wild imaginations to answer the "big" question of this thread. We've invented all kinds of explanations over time to provide an answer -- from alien beings visiting from other worlds, to thousands of gods ranging from inanimate objects around us, all the way to those gods claimed to exist in a realm we also invented and call the "supernatural". We found that the supernatural was a safe place for us to put god(s) because there is not one shred of evidence that anything supernatural exists (only in the hunman mind), and therefore it protects these comforting concepts of gods from logical and empirical scrutiny.

Nobody yet knows exactly how living cells formed on earth (yielding to humans) and the whole world should be content with that truth, but our past and our present tell us that many/most people have not, and are not. We atheists refuse to accept the unsupported and mostly ancient superstitious claims for our existence made by a few who wrote about a few other individuals who lived before their time and supposedly received personal revelations from a supernatural "creator" (that's not only Xianity). Is it more likely that nature should give way to a few supernatural revelations, or is it more likely that men lie for purpose? I've always felt that atheists insist on honesty based on logic, reason, and epistemology. God believers are required to surrender those elements of the mind solely to satisfy themselves emotionally in this regard. Of course, there are those who claim to "believe" in God, but in actuality do not and instead use the concept only for the purpose of personal greed and power.

I happen to subscribe to this quote from James Thurber: ""It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers." Yet, we see right within this thread, all the god believers who curiously seem to know exactly all of their God's ways of thinking and the reasons for everything they claim it does. Just look back at the thread and pay close attention to all the many and varied claims for how God works and it's intentions -- it is indeed just astounding and is a study in both the imagination and the weakness of the human mind. I will never understand how people can reach the level where they can so convincingly lie to themselves (and to others) and so easily fool themselves (and others). Just remember this: "Science consists of questions that may never be answered, religion consists of answers that may never be questioned."

[rachmanfan]

Originally posted by spurly
There are some theologians currently doing more research on hell. They are trying to determine if our concept of hell is correct or if it is totally messed up.

How does one research hell? Just curious.


After all, Christians have been dead wrong in their doctrine before. They could be wrong again.
Kevin

I'm guessing most here would agree with this. ;)

[HereticJack]

Originally posted by rachmanfan
How does one research hell? Just curious.
Serve in the military in Bush's Iraq?

[Grumsh]

I am going to play the Christian Counter argument in this, just because, It’s FUN!

Originally posted by atechnie
Okay, why did God create humans in the first place? So he can send some of them to hell?* Why did he create sorrow? Why did he create the galaxy? Wasn't he happy living with himself? Did he become lonely? Why? Why? Why????

God chose to.

Originally posted by Hyndis
So, according to the bible, the Christian god is evil or imperfect. Pick one, but you must pick one option.

I love how atheists, ask Christians to Pick one of two options.. but then…

When the questions is placed back at them we see:
If you don't want to be in a room with light, what is the only alternative? A room thats dark.

No, you could walk out of the room if you didn't want to be there. Man, anyone with any imagination could see ways out of these false dichotomies.
Or outside, or in a dimly-lit room, or floating in space...

Humm yah, no one likes those (2) options only games, now do they?


Originally posted by Mageth
We've gone over this one before, Magus. I have not ever, am not now, and will not ever, choose to end up in Hell. Therefore, for me to wind up there, Love is going to have to put me there. Think about that.

Sorry, by your own actions, in this life, you decide where you will go. No one else.

I know, scary isn’t it, that you will be held accountable for your own actions. But that is just the way it goes some times.

Originally posted by Mageth
Bzzzt. I cannot choose to be for or against something that I do not believe exists. It's impossible. I am neither for nor against Santa Claus, for example.

Really? That is odd, because I thought Denouncing the existence of Santa Clause put you against him.

I mean, you kind of have to be against something to denounce the existence of it don’t you think?

If you were FOR it, you would not denounce its existence now would you?

So if your not for something, your against it. Simple Standard Logic.


Originally posted by Mageth
That is definitely debatable. He, after all, created the whole mess with full knowledge of everything he was creating, including moral evil.

True, but Humans Chose to know Evil. That was OUR choice.

Originally posted by winstonjen
Too bad the bible EXPLICITLY states that some are made for the SOLE purpose of going to hell. And if he KNOWS where people will end up, and creates them anyway, he is creating people that will go to hell, rather than NOT creating them and letting them deal with oblivion.


John 12:40 "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

Romans 9:18

"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

{Personal comment deleted}


Originally posted by QueenofSwords
If the punishment is that they brutally torture their children for one little misdeed, then they don't love their children, no.

Really, “One little misdeed�? is that how you view it?

Lets see, if I can shed some light on your “One little misdeed�

It’s an entire life time of denouncing Gods existence, with every breath you take, and every thought you have, you denounce God and his existence rebuking his love.

What is that like? Lets see what we can make of that “One little misdeed�

Which by the way is a wonderful counter argument to Christianity, only as long as you can maintain the idea that it is really just “one little misdeed�

Lets move away from the whole child/parent thing, that’s been worked to death.

So.

Lets go to School.

Because we do have some teachers in this forum, and we have all been students at some time. (some of us still are students)

Lets see what your “One little misdeed� is in a class room setting.

You never show up to class

You never do your home work

You fail every, and ANY test you take on purpose, assuming that you even bother to take any tests. (Like turning in a test with lots of drawings on it or your favorite band name scrawled across the entire page, with out an attempt to even answer a question)

You mock the students that go the class because you think the class is “Worthless� or “Irrelevant� (this might, might not apply, depending on your stance)

You Ridicule the teacher of the class, because you feel they are not “Worthy� of your vaunted attendance.

So, tell me, what teacher would pass you? I mean, They can pass you, because they make up the grade, but would they?

Not if they are a fair teacher, it would be unjust to the students that showed up, that did the work required to pass the class, if they passed you, because of your “One little misdeed�

Are they EVIL because they failed you?

No. They have done what is just and fair. They did Good by rewarding and making that reward mean something to those that tried, those that made the effort, received the appropriate reward for that effort.

Now, do you want to Fail?

No, of course not,

But you did

CHOOSE to fail.

You made the choice, no one else. The teacher did not want to fail you, your fellow students did not want you to fail, or force you to fail. You brought your failure upon yourself, of your own choice.

So you fail the class, but what does that mean?

That means you ALWAYS will have FAILED the class, never can you change that grade, NEVER can you “Go back� and fix it, you will have failed it, you can never amend that FAILURE, you can never recant that Grade. It is there, and your stuck with it, no matter what you do with the rest of your life, you will have, till the day you die, and beyond, have FAILED that class, because you just did not think it was worth your time.

“One little misdeed� I am sorry you view it so lightly.

Grumsh

[mjbeam]

Originally posted by spurly
Mike,

Thanks for the compliment, but that would be too heavy of a burden for me to bear. Think of the consequence if I messed up! I would screw lots of people over.

The Bible is simply one story of God who poured out his love on his creation, had his love spurned, and then spent the rest of recorded history trying to restore that relationship. What's cool is that is just not my version of the Bible, that's THE BIBLE!
I don't see how you could screw it up any more than it is now. Whip up a rev one and let's have a look at it.


-Mike

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Grumsh
Really, “One little misdeed�? is that how you view it?

Isn't that how God views it? If there was a very good person on earth who wasn't a christian and who committed one sin before dying, where would god send him?

It’s an entire life time of denouncing Gods existence, with every breath you take, and every thought you have,

My, what a melodramatic statement - and how off the mark it is.

you denounce God and his existence rebuking his love.

I also rebuke his hatred and intolerance - or at least the hatred and intolerance in his so-called holy book and from his representatives.

Lets move away from the whole child/parent thing, that’s been worked to death.

Oh, but why? Are you unable to address the point that to fit with the god/sinner analogy, a parent would have to kill their child if the child committed a single misdeed?

Let'ss see what your “One little misdeed� is in a class room setting.

<snip lots>

Irrelevant. You know why? Whether one commits thousands of misdeeds or just one, unless you become a christian, god burns you in hell forever. Going by the school analogy, you could be the best student, but make one misspelling on a test, and you're failed. Claiming that one misdeed somehow equals a lot of them doesn't answer my point.

And yes, god is evil for sending people to hell for all eternity if they are not christians.

“One little misdeed� I am sorry you view it so lightly.

"One little misdeed" I am sorry you could not address my point.

[Birdsmgp]

Originally posted by Magus55
God is love. By being love, God wants to share His Glory and wonders with others. He wanted (note:not needed) people to share in a relationship with Him. To have a relationship however, the love between two people can't be forced. In other words, God wasn't gonna create humanity with the inability to choose not to love Him ( because by the reverse, they couldn't choose to love Him). Hence where you get free will.

God didn't need anything, but creation is a result of love.
... In 1969 (I was 14) - 1980 (11 years + 25) I was believing that there was this God of Love. But after evaluating my 11 years appling all the Faith princaples. I found nothing in this world had Love, but Malicious and Malign conditions of allowing my life the worse and humilation. My choices in liking this Earth and Nature as something of a Glory and Wonder got the worse deal and disrespect. Strangely I found it actually came from ignorance and hypocracy more from Religion. And as I struggled to find my interest in Science that had a genuine concern for adventures, exploration and discovery for those actual Glories and Wonders of this Earth and Universe. That it represented something in contradiction to God tales from Religion. Seeing that life is struggling to survive as Preditor and Prey and so many things. I like some concepts like ever finding that woman to be intimate in my life and find a climate for the Clouds, Fog, Rain and Temperate below 80 degrees at the Max in my life. Lack of Cooperation in my life is Hell for me already.
And every human on Earth has the ability to avoid Hell. Sure, God knows who will end up where, but humans don't. If you don't whether you will choose Heaven or Hell, you still possess the choice of where to end up, therefore its not up to God of where you end up, its up to you. God only knows where you will end up because you will inevitably choose to be for Him or against Him. If God never creates those who go to Hell, then He isn't creating humanity with a choice. (You wouldn't exist to make the choice if God didn't create all people, regardless of where they end up )

(So when do I get to have my choices out of this Life? Something isn't right.)

[Grumsh]

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
Originally posted by Grumsh
Really, “One little misdeed�? is that how you view it?

Isn't that how God views it? If there was a very good person on earth who wasn't a christian and who committed one sin before dying, where would god send him?

so that is how you view it?

that the number of Sins you commit values your worth in the Eyes of God?

Irrelevant. You know why? Whether one commits thousands of misdeeds or just one, unless you become a christian, god burns you in hell forever.

See that is where you missed the analogy. I see that now.
I however, think, you chose to view it that way.

but it was not my intention.

Going by the school analogy, you could be the best student, but make one misspelling on a test, and you're failed. Claiming that one misdeed somehow equals a lot of them doesn't answer my point.

Sorry If you have missinterpeted my analogy in this manner for what ever the reasions.

I did try to explain it to you.

“One little misdeed� I am sorry you view it so lightly.

"One little misdeed" I am sorry you could not address my point.

I did address your point, you chose not to read it. either that, or refused to understand it.

Either way, the attempt was made on my part to enlighten you, if you choose to ignore what I had said, that is well within your right,

it's just one more day in the classrooom you refused to attend, another lecture you refused to listen to.

But in the end, it is your choice.

Grumsh.

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Grumsh
so that is how you view it?

that the number of Sins you commit values your worth in the Eyes of God?

My understanding of christianity is that even one sin, or one little misdeed, is enough for god to punish you with hellfire.

See that is where you missed the analogy. I see that now.
I however, think, you chose to view it that way.

And I think that your analogy was flawed; one can hardly choose to view a flawed analogy any other way.

I did address your point,

No, you did not.

you chose not to read it. either that

I asked a question; you chose not to answer it

Either way, the attempt was made on my part to enlighten you,

I see no such attempt. I pointed out that even one misdeed, or according to your analogy, one spelling mistake, equalled hellfire or failure. Where do you address that point?

it's just one more day in the classrooom you refused to attend, another lecture you refused to listen to.

It's just one more day where the teacher was absent, and the "substitute" didn't answer any questions or teach anything, simply mouthing the inaccurate statement, "if you fail on the test, that's your choice."

[Grumsh]

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
My understanding of christianity is that even one sin, or one little misdeed, is enough for god to punish you with hellfire.

I have no idea where you got this conclusion, or who told you this, but it is incorrect.

However if that is what you have been basing your entire opnion of Christanity on, I can see why you do not understand the point I was trying to make with the above analogy, and why you have said what you have said.

This has been very enlightning to me, a true eye opening expirence. You have shown me a new persepctive on the outlooks of others.

For that I thank you.

Grumsh

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Grumsh
I have no idea where you got this conclusion, or who told you this

I drew this conclusion from other christians who have said here that God cannot be in the presence of sin. It follows, therefore, that even one sin excludes you from the presence of God - i.e. sends you to hell.

Perhaps there's biblical justification for it as well. I'm sure christians such as Magus55 could provide some.

but it is incorrect.

This is an opinion, thus far unsubstantiated.

However if that is what you have been basing your entire opnion of Christanity on

No, that is not what I base my entire opinion of Christianity on. Since this is now thoroughly off-topic, if you wish to continue discussing this, perhaps you would be kind enough to start a new thread.

[Jeremy_the _Atheist]

Humans Exist so that they can accept Dirty Harry as their lord and savior.

[CoffeeFiend]

I wonder how many people would choose to be born, if the Christian God were true and gave us a choice to be born as a human or not to exists at all ? Currently, according to Christianity we are basically guilty of being human, but how can we be held accountable if we never chose to be human in the first place ?

[Marduk]

Before Grumsh can use the school analogy shouldn’t he first convince ‘the students’ that they are even in class at all, that ‘the teacher’ is even present?
I’m at home, no one here but my dog, my bird and some uninvited vermin hiding somewhere out of view.
You are telling people they are in a class with an invisible building, teacher and a grading system someone pulled out of thin air. No wonder so many fail, they don’t even know they are in class.
Can I see your notes?

[Grumsh]

Post Deleted, contained nothing more then mocking comment.

Grumsh.

[Queen of Swords]

I have to say, that kind of honesty and self-restraint is admirable. :)

[Grumsh]

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
I drew this conclusion from other christians who have said here that God cannot be in the presence of sin. It follows, therefore, that even one sin excludes you from the presence of God - i.e. sends you to hell.

Since I have no idea where you got this assumption, or who told it to you. I do not even know where to work from. I am sorry, beyond, that is not a correct assumption, there is nothing more I can say.


Grumsh.

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Grumsh
Since I have no idea where you got this assumption, or who told it to you.

As I said before, other christians on this board have told us that god cannot be in the presence of sin. It therefore follows that if someone lives a perfect life and then commits one sin, that one sin prevents them from being in heaven.

Or, to put it another way, our sins are like a bar chart. Mahatma Gandhi has a tiny bar. Hitler has a tall bar. However, God doesn't look at the bar chart from the side, he looks at it from the top, so all sins appear equal to him.

I do not even know where to work from. I am sorry, beyond, that is not a correct assumption, there is nothing more I can say.

Why is there nothing more you can say? Is there no reasoning or evidence you can put forth to back up your assertion that this is not a correct assumption?

If you don't want to, that's OK, it's not that important to me. I just find it disappointing that someone who goes against such a common theory will say no more than "it's not correct".