Atheism's Absurdity - An article

[spurly]

On another website I frequent there is an article entitled "Atheism's Absurdity". I was wondering if you all would be kind enough to read it and let me know what you thought. You could discuss it here, or on the message board that is associated with the article. Here is the link:


(Link removed at the request of the administrator at the other forum)

Kevin

[TomboyMom]

It's not an argument--it assumes the truth of what it is trying to establish:the atheist denies the very Creator who made him.


And the author is funny-looking.

Rene

[The Evil One]

It's all rubbish. He presents arguments that would be ripped to shreds if he presented them here. All he does is explain how atheists are wrong, assumign that God exists. Well, if you assume that God exists, of course we're wrong. But whether or not God exists is the precise point at question.

[Jade]

What do I think?

I think it was a massive exercise in question begging, with a dash of tedious teleological nonsense. Altogether, it was rather pedestrian, and not particularly noteworthy or interesting.

[Gooch's dad]

That article was so astoundingly stupid that it crashed my computer. Yep. I actually had to reset my nice solid modeling workstation, it was so stunned by the illogic of that article!

Spurly, do you really expect that article to get a serious reaction?

[Nick the Dick]

I agree with Jade, pedestrian. His writing is about as dull as a turnip. Most of these types at least try to polish the turd of Christianity at least a little.
I don’t think the guy has anything even original to say, it reads like he pieced together other peoples thoughts and mimicked them like a parrot, I doubt he has an IQ above 85.

Spurly, you frequent this site? What do you get out of it?

[Mentalepsy]

"The [morally deficient] says in his heart, 'There is no God'" (Psalm 14).
The article hasn't even started, and he's already made an ass out of himself.

The proverbial ostrich sticks his head in the sand, so the atheist denies the very Creator who made him.
And while my head's in the sand, Jesus is gonna come kick my butt, right?

This is far worse than a dumb animal fooling himself that he is safe by covering his eyes. It's not unlike a child hiding under the covers in hopes that a scolding parent will not find him. To deny the obvious is the worst kind of self-delusion.

I completely agree with all of the above.

When the tickle in my throat warns of encroaching illness the first thing that comes to my mind is that I am imagining the slight change in my body. When the tickle turns to a dry scratchy feeling I want to deny strongly what I know is taking place--I am on the brink of a sore throat and maybe a prolonged bout with a cold or flu. Eventually the denial turns into reality as I apply all the products that might help relieve me of my symptoms as I struggle through another uncomfortable illness (gargling salt water, drinking lots of juices, taking aspirin, sipping decongestants, et al).
But remember, science can't be trusted, so do as he says and not as he does.

The religion of atheism
is like saying "the logic of fundamentalism."

allows its adherents to keep from having to search for who God might be. It is an easy doctrine in some ways because it covers over what is most obvious to the human senses
Such as the image of Jesus imprinted in your burrito.

as well as the innate spiritual nature of human beings. If I deny there is some creative force behind the complex world in which I live, I not only remove myself from accountability to a higher power,
except for the government and other human beings,

but I also allow myself to become my own God.
Clearly the author does not need to be an atheist to accomplish this.

That is the easy part of atheism
to knock down, since it's made of straw.

The difficult part of it is the great faith that is required to allow atheism to be the creed by which I direct my course in life.
One reason it's so difficult is because atheism isn't a creed by which you can direct your life.

It takes far less faith to suppose the space shuttles had engineers and designers working countless hours to create such modern wonders than to foolishly suggest that such space ships sort of came together of their own accord out of chaos.
It takes far less faith to believe that this article was written by a semi-conscious slime mold than to believe that Christianity is true.

What lunacy such a position would demand.
What lunacy such a position would demand.

Yet those who have the greater faith, the almost impossible faith that tells them the intricate universe created itself over eons and eons of time, are the ones who deny deity.
Deity was begging on a street corner, but I just laughed and threw mud on him.

The architecture of the cosmos cries out that there must be some Grand Architect.
The famous "Singing Architecture" of Boston is a major tourist attraction.

In math tests scores are higher when the most answers given are accurate. Some answers may be wrong, but even some of the wrong answers are closer to accuracy than
others.
And yet still absolutely wrong.

"There is no God" is a wrong answer to the test question: From whence did we come?
Of course it's wrong, it has nothing to do with the question.
"Jimmy, from whence did we come?"
"There is no Elvis."

"There is some higher being responsible for our existence" is one correct answer from the same test question.
The test was administered at Bob Jones University.

This puts an onus on believers to discover Who this being is Who has so amazingly ordered our world. What ensues is responsible for the many religious persuasions we encounter today.
Some people might be persuaded by this, I suppose.

The human mind attempts to describe this powerful being who made the complex circulatory systems that keep us alive and who designed the cerebral cortex and brain cells that allow us to even discuss such lofty matters as deity.
Then it realizes that deity is superfluous.

That many things have gone wrong with the world in which we live is no reason to deny a designer God.
Quite so. Luckily, this has nothing to do with atheism.

Perhaps what has gone wrong with our world may be the fault of those for which it was created in the first place. Since human nature has a strong tendency to assess blame elsewhere, atheism is a not so subtle way of excusing one from culpability in besmirching the environment.
Much like Christianity. After all, if we're going to live in heaven anyway, why bother keeping the planet clean?

If I have personally fouled the bed in which I lie
I would cry until Mommy woke up and changed my sheets.

then I might wish to blame someone else for my lack of good housekeeping.
"I didn't poo-poo my bed! Daddy did it!"

Or better still, I will blame nobody and chalk it up to cosmic fate due to a universe without thoughtful design or purpose. How very embarrassingly foolish such a position is outright.
Since this guy is obviously not talking about atheism, I wonder why he bothered to mention it in the title.

The atheist's argument is that the world is so cruel and so unjust that if a caring and paternal architect had anything to do with it, he would surely see that no inequities, no pain, no evil, no horrible things would ever happen.
A bit of a caricature of one argument used against one specific concept of God. However, even this he handles ineptly, as we shall see.

The strongest argument an atheist can muster in his denial of God is actually his weakest argument. For, if there is no God, how can an atheist be so presumptuous as to complain about pain? After all, it's all one big bang of an accident anyway.
Subject demonstrates a woefully inadequate understanding of argumentative techniques. Jones, increase the voltage on the device.

Suffering is a spiritual problem only for believers. We who trust in a beneficent God are the only ones who have to work out the dilemma of pain and death and dying and all of the other horrific matters that challenge the mind. How can someone say a road is crooked unless he has first seen one that is strait?
How can you say something is green unless you've first something that's red?

How can two plus two be four instead of twenty-three?
young Steven Clark Goad asked, unable to comprehend the red X on his paper.

How can there be pain and injustice in life unless there are reference points from which to draw such conclusion? If life is the product of the shuffling of matter in the ancient long ago, then what unbeliever is there who can rightly appeal to any system of justice to prove there is injustice?
Again, the author doesn't even understand why the argument is made.

The atheist impales himself on his own epee. He cannot appeal to the maker of stars and justice to cry injustice.
Which is why he doesn't.

Why do so many deny the very things they seem to be most fearful of? As with the sore throat, people who are told they have terminal illness will often go into immediate denial. Why does a being created by a Masterful Designer feel the necessity to deny the very source of his own existence?
The difference is that if my limbs start to rot and fall off, it's quite obvious that they are in fact doing so. Master Designer seems to be hiding behind the drapes.

There is something diabolical about it.
No, there is something rational about it.

Are there problems we must deal with as we struggle through our various lives of travail? Certainly. But the suffering we encounter along life's pathway is only a problem for those of us who believe in God. It can never be a dilemma for so-called non-believers.
For example, Passion of Christ won't win Best Picture of 2004.

Happenstance surely would account for glitches along the way. So the atheist has no persona on which to release his anger when life is snatched prematurely from his child, or when an earthquake swallows his dream house. Only the believer has the issue of resolving how a good God could allow bad things to happen to those he claims to love.
What exactly is this person's point? He continues to drone on about how the Problem of Evil only applies to people who believe in a particular god, as if we did not all know it already.

I don't know about others, but as for me and my house, we will have to keep believing there is a God who cares. Does he allow things that are hard to grapple with; difficult to put a handle on? Who would deny it? But he is also a God who provides hope for something far better; something without pain and anguish; something eternal and marvelous.
Wasn't he speaking before about denying that which you most fear?

Humankind's free will has brought most of the suffering we must endure.
For example, AIDS, the ebola virus, earthquakes, tornadoes, cancer...

The atheist denies personal responsibility by denying the hand that feeds him. Truly, this is a foolish conjecture.
Correction: the atheist doesn't believe in gods. It's okay, I get those two crossed up all the time.


In summary, the author has built a funeral pyre for the corpses of his strawmen, with some other miscellaneous nonsense tossed in, but accomplished little else except to give me something to pass the time.

[Tom Sawyer]

I have to disagree. After reading that insightful and well thought out article, I have decided to stop lying to myself and accept Jesus's glory.

The author's razor-sharp intellect and magnificent defense of arguments against atheism that I actually hadn't heard a thousand times before have made me stop denying God and realize that the root cause of my atheism was that I was too weak to accept the Glory of His Spirit and my fears of His Judgement of my unworthy soul were what caused me to turn my eyes away from Him. Oh, woe was me!

This will be my final post here as to atone for my sins of disbelief, I am going to cast off my pursuit of material gains and travel to Africa where I can spread His Word by ripping condoms out of the hands of AIDS-infected villagers and replacing them with Bibles.

Goodbye everybody and God Bless. I hope you are all able to find someone to lead you out of the darkness of atheism as this author has done for me.

[Plognark]

Wow, it must be fun setting up so many strawmen to smash to pieces. Kinda like when I used to bash little plastic army soldiers as a kid. :rolleyes:

This guy is a dolt. His article is lousy, and even I, with my feeble education, could tear that thing to bits, if I didn't have more important things to do like pick my own ass crack for lint.

Edited to add: I'm being a prick about this becuase of the author's nice sweeping generalizations and biases and insulting patronization of my beliefs, or lack therof. He can blow it out his ass. Smug self righteous prick. :mad:

[spurly]

Thanks for your replies. Hey, why don't one of you, who is an atheist, send him an email and invite him to come here to discuss atheism with some real atheists.

Also, someone asked why I frequent that site. I am a Christian and I enjoy talking on their message boards.

Kevin

[spurly]

Originally posted by Tom Sawyer
I have to disagree. After reading that insightful and well thought out article, I have decided to stop lying to myself and accept Jesus's glory.

The author's razor-sharp intellect and magnificent defense of arguments against atheism that I actually hadn't heard a thousand times before have made me stop denying God and realize that the root cause of my atheism was that I was too weak to accept the Glory of His Spirit and my fears of His Judgement of my unworthy soul were what caused me to turn my eyes away from Him. Oh, woe was me!

This will be my final post here as to atone for my sins of disbelief, I am going to cast off my pursuit of material gains and travel to Africa where I can spread His Word by ripping condoms out of the hands of AIDS-infected villagers and replacing them with Bibles.

Goodbye everybody and God Bless. I hope you are all able to find someone to lead you out of the darkness of atheism as this author has done for me.

I'm glad to know you have converted. If you want to talk more about it, feel free to contact me.

Kevin

[Plognark]

I'm glad to know you have converted. If you want to talk more about it, feel free to contact me.

Kevin

Please, spurly, please tell me you noticed the sarcasm...please...I am begging you... ;)

[Queen of Swords]

The religion of atheism

I'm in a religion? Perhaps I never realized it so far because no one passed around a collection plate.

[Jade]

Originally posted by spurly
Thanks for your replies. Hey, why don't one of you, who is an atheist, send him an email and invite him to come here to discuss atheism with some real atheists.

Why invite him? It'll only end in tears....

First possibility:
The arguments in his article reflect his actual understanding of atheism and actual intellectual capability. Outcome: Boring-heard-it-a-billion-times-before debate, which quickly dissolves into insult-flinging and probably a retreat on his part.
- Why invite him if that is the result? We get plenty enough of such people coming here of their own volition.

Second possibility:
He actually does have a good grasp of logic and of atheism in general, but chose to use deeply fallacious reasoning and straw men to further propagandize and control his Christian audience.
- Why invite such a deeply dishonest and scary person? I'd rather let him prey on his own flock like the rest of his ilk.

[The Evil One]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tom Sawyer
[...]Goodbye everybody and God Bless. I hope you are all able to find someone to lead you out of the darkness of atheism as this author has done for me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm glad to know you have converted. If you want to talk more about it, feel free to contact me.

Kevin


:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy to Tom Sawyer for the beautiful, beautiful irony.

And one more :notworthy for Spurly. I'm not sure whether your response was sincerely deluded or deadpan irony itself, but in either case, :notworthy

[Mageth]

Since spurly asked for our reactions to the article, I am going to be brutally honest as to my thoughts when reading the article:

The article was a complete crock of shit based on superstition, fear, and a strawman portrayal of the position (atheism) at which he is aiming the "argument", illustrating his complete ignorance of the atheists' position. There was not one bit of sound logic in the entire article, not one good reason to believe rather than to not believe.

The weakness of his position is illustrated in his statement "as for me and my house, we will have to keep believing there is a God who cares", which illustrates my point about his argument against non-belief (and thus for belief) is based largely on superstition and fear. The only way he understands to deal with life and the fears it brings him is through "keeping believing" in his preferred superstition. Since that is the case, I wish him luck, but I find it unfortunate that, in his statement, he implies that he will insist those "in his house" share in his superstition and fear without asking too many questions.

If he means for his article to impress thoughtful atheists, he will be sorely disappointed. Alas, I suspect his article is really meant to impress those who share his superstition, to make them feel better about the answer they put down on his little test in light of the lack of actual evidence to support their superstition and the actual arguments that atheists have against their superstition.

[Plognark]

Why invite him? It'll only end in tears....

Well, I don't have the time for a formal debate of any sort, nor do I feel comfortably educated enough for such an undertaking, but I do get extreme joy in idiots being shown the error of their prejudiced judgemental arrogance....

....
....
I'm waiting for Magus55 to say "the pot and the kettle" or something with regards to arrogance, etc... ;)

[Mentalepsy]

Out of curiosity, spurly, what did you think of the article?

[spurly]

Originally posted by Plognark
Please, spurly, please tell me you noticed the sarcasm...please...I am begging you... ;)

I noticed the sarcasm. I just had to post that though! :D

[spurly]

Mageth, do you mind if I post your reply on the Christian website that the article was posted on (of course I would have edit the word s**t).

Kevin

[Nom]

Originally posted by Mageth
The article was a complete crock of shit
Well put.

[spurly]

Originally posted by Mentalepsy
Out of curiosity, spurly, what did you think of the article?

To be honest, I didn't think his arguments were that well thought out. If they were thought it, he had a hard time moving the thoughts from his mind to his keyboard.

I've seen much better rebuttals of atheism here on this board than appeared in that article.

Kevin

[Mageth]

Originally posted by spurly
Mageth, do you mind if I post your reply on the Christian website that the article was posted on (of course I would have edit the word s**t).

Kevin

No, I don't mind at all, as long as you post a link here to where I can see the responses to it. I won't respond there, though.

I will point out, however, that there are Christians and those of other beliefs I know of whose "reasons to believe" and "reasons to not disbelieve" I find much more sound than this guy's apparently are, as they are not based simply on superstition and fear (as his beliefs appear to be from the article) and don't denigrate those that don't accept their particular interpretation of the "divine".

I would also like to stress my statement "Since that is the case, I wish him luck...". In so saying, I am recognizing that he is welcome to his beliefs, though from the article they appear to be based on shaky ground, and their exclusiveness disturbs me.

[capnkirk]

That article targets only one audience...the faithful. And one purpose...to convince them to hold onto their faith against the encroachment of science and reason. Barf!! http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/wuerg/vomit-smiley-007.gif

Of course it was crap! He was just trying to use it as fertilizer to make Xtain flowers grow.

[Postcard73]

Originally posted by Mageth
Alas, I suspect his article is really meant to impress those who share his superstition I think this is probably the heart of the matter. The article presents one strawman after another. I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt that he isn't really this ignorant about atheism. I think he just decided to write a faith-confirming essay for people who already believe, by preying upon commonly held false perceptions of atheism.

In other words, I think the intended audience of the article is not atheists but Christians.

Edit: X-posted with capnkirk.

[spurly]

Thanks Mageth, here is the link where you can follow any discussion that takes place.

Forum discussing the article Atheisism's Absurdity (http://www.gracecentered.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=4050d36005e0ffff;act=ST;f=2;t=6735)

Kevin

[Mageth]

Originally posted by spurly
Thanks Mageth, here is the link where you can follow any discussion that takes place.

Forum discussing the article Atheisism's Absurdity (http://www.gracecentered.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=4050d36005e0ffff;act=ST;f=2;t=6735)

Kevin

Kevin:

I'd appreciate it if you'd post my additional comments I included in the post where I gave you permission.

[Heurismus]

I would love him to libel me!!! Heurismus

[Mageth]

Spurly:

You commented on the other thread:

I received his permission to post his response on this board. However, he does not want to discuss it in this forum. Maybe he has been attacked by too many Christians and hasn't felt the love of Christ? That's just a possibility, I don't know if that is true or not. However, if it is true, it is really sad.

I appreciate the sentiment, but the reason I'm not interested in responding over there is not that I have been "attacked by too many Christians and hasn't felt the love of Christ". I simply don't participate in other fora at this time, and have no real interest in doing so, particularly Xian-specific fora.

I have felt love from some Christians, and unfortunately have not felt love from others. But this, to me, simply illustrates that Christians are human like the rest of us, and come in all sorts. Chrisitianity generally doesn't seem to have much effect on most people's interactions with others (the "love of Christ" bit), from my experience.

Further, I think that understanding the true "Christ message" is something possible for all of us, whether Christian, some other religion, or even non-believer. The core of this message, expressed by Jesus, Paul, and James in the bible, and found in other literature as well, is "love your neighbor as yourself" (expressed in Hinduism, I believe, in recognizing the expression "Thou art that") and being in a right position with the universe (whether one sees "God" in the universe or not).

The extra trappings brought by literal interpretations of myths such as those found in the Bible, and too often turned into dogma, are simply not necessary, and are even obstacles to, realizing this message. One such obstacle in recognizing this message was amply illustrated in the article you posted; the writer of the article apparently does not really grasp the essential "Christ message" of "thou art that". That obstacle, unfortunately, was written into the Christian holy text in the scripture the writer quoted at the beginning of the article.

[Taffer]

A guy called Freeman over there seems to have a few objections that I'm sure I've heard from christians before . . . He has given thought to the matter and shattering prejudices is never a bad thing, so perhaps it might not be a bad idea for a few of us to drop by. Broaden people's perspectives and such.

He's wondering about the origin of life/matter and, of course, the good ol' moral standard (with a side helping of Nazi evil).

I'd do it now, but it's eleven in the evening and I have school tomorrow. Maybe after that if you're all too lazy and don't have it done by then. ;)

[Starboy]

Originally posted by spurly
I'm glad to know you have converted. If you want to talk more about it, feel free to contact me.

Kevin

PSYCH!

Starboy

[spurly]

Originally posted by Mageth
Kevin:

I'd appreciate it if you'd post my additional comments I included in the post where I gave you permission.

Will do.

[The Evil One]

Originally posted by Taffer
A guy called Freeman over there seems to have a few objections that I'm sure I've heard from christians before . . . He has given thought to the matter and shattering prejudices is never a bad thing, so perhaps it might not be a bad idea for a few of us to drop by. Broaden people's perspectives and such.

I don't see any evidence that Freeman has given the matter any real thought. He appears to have read, and memorised, large chunks of CS Lewis, ce qui n'est pas la meme chose.

[Mageth]

Freeman starts out with arguments from incredulity/ignorance (which are weak at best), moves on to what is essentially an argument from popularity combined with a "where did morals come from?" argument, expands on the argument from morality/moral law, and closes with an argument positing a "need to believe" as evidence for God.

His arguments can be stated succintly as:

Where did the universe come from?
Where did our consciousness come from?
Where does morality come from?
Where does belief in a higher power come from?

Overall, perhaps these are stronger arguments than those posited by the writer of the article, but each has its weaknesses and is faced by strong counter-arguments (not the least of which is, "If from God, where did God (or his morality, or his consciousness) come from?". For example, there is a plausible naturalistic explanation for the origin of morality, and thus a naturalistic basis for morality (several of them, actually). One does not have to believe in God to be moral. And none of Freeman's arguments provides any actual, tangible evidence for the God he perceives from the combination of these arguments. He's simply pointing at holes he perceives in our knowledge and filling them with God.

[Godless Dave]

Originally posted by Mageth
I have felt love from some Christians, and unfortunately have not felt love from others. But this, to me, simply illustrates that Christians are human like the rest of us, and come in all sorts. Chrisitianity generally doesn't seem to have much effect on most people's interactions with others[...], from my experience.

This has been my experience as well. Sorry for the derail, but it's one of those things that for a long time thought went without saying, then realized it didn't.

[Starboy]

I think the author [Goad] displayed his ignorance of atheism nicely. He also does what most every theist on the planet does. He completely ignores that when it comes to other god(s) he doesn't believe in he is also an atheist. He is also not willing to recognize that his reasons for rejecting other gods and religions could also be applied to his own. Rather than attacking others perhaps he should be looking for the virtues of his own religion. But then again that is also another common error committed by the religious, rather than showing why they must be right they try to convince people by showing that others must be wrong. Atheists may be wrong, but if they are that doesn't make a particular theist right.

[Spurly, if you want to post this as well you have my permission.]

Starboy

[mjbeam]

Originally posted by spurly
Thanks for your replies. Hey, why don't one of you, who is an atheist, send him an email and invite him to come here to discuss atheism with some real atheists.

Also, someone asked why I frequent that site. I am a Christian and I enjoy talking on their message boards.

Kevin
Someone like that should never be deconverted. Who will protect him from the boogieman? How will he behave when he figures out that Sauron's unblinking eye isn't wathing him all the time?

No, make sure he never stop believing. People like that scare me.


-Mike

[The Other Michael]

Hello Kevin,

On that other site you said:

By the way Talulah, I think it is sad that Christians, who are supposed to love the way Jesus loved, revert to name calling and throwing around accusations. I can understand when non-Christians act like that, because that is their nature, but those of us who follow Jesus are supposed to be new creatures who have crucified the old nature.

(emphasis added by me)

I'll have to admit that seeing you express that sentiment takes you down a few notches from where I previously had you pegged.

Michael

[Queen of Swords]

I know many non-Christians who don't "throw around accusations" - even better, they don't expect other people to behave badly simply because those other people are not members of their particular religion.

[Dean Anderson]

Spurly -

Since the people on that thread are hesitant about wanting atheists to join their board, why don't you post this invitation (as well as a link to this board) there.

Those who prefer not to discuss things with atheists because they are worried that either they or we will lose our temper and it will degenerate into a slanging match can ignore it, and those who wish to discuss and debate with us can come here and do it.

No-one here objects to Christians coming here for discussions and we will welcome them with open arms (providing they genuinely want to discuss things in a civilised manner and are not just coming here to shout that WE ARE GOING TO HELL!).

If they do feel uncomfortable with discussions here it is easy for them to simply leave - whereas if 'we' are posting on 'their' site it is harder for them to leave the discussion.

P.s. Has anyone ever told you that you look like a younger Phil Collins?

[Taffer]

Originally posted by The Evil One
I don't see any evidence that Freeman has given the matter any real thought. He appears to have read, and memorised, large chunks of CS Lewis, ce qui n'est pas la meme chose.
I've never read Lewis, so I wouldn't know . . .

But like I said, perhaps it's worth a shot. I say this out of a ridiculously optimistic belief in the fundamentally good nature of humankind. :D

[spurly]

Michael,

I'm sorry to see that I've moved down on your board. I was not chastising atheists here, I was getting onto my fellow brothers and sisters and trying to call them to love all people the way Christ did.

In my opinion, loving people who disagree with you is not natural, it takes work (for Christians it takes the Holy Spirit giving us the will and the desire to do that). That's all I meant by that.

Kevin

[spurly]

Originally posted by Pervy Hobbit Fancier
Spurly -

Since the people on that thread are hesitant about wanting atheists to join their board, why don't you post this invitation (as well as a link to this board) there.

Those who prefer not to discuss things with atheists because they are worried that either they or we will lose our temper and it will degenerate into a slanging match can ignore it, and those who wish to discuss and debate with us can come here and do it.
That's not a bad idea. However, Lee, the board administrator, has a policy about not posting links to other discussion boards. I will have to run it by him first.



P.s. Has anyone ever told you that you look like a younger Phil Collins?

Thanks for the compliment. I've never had anyone tell me that before, though.

Kevin

[The Other Michael]

Kevin,

It sure reads like you are tarring all non-Christians with a pretty broad brush. That's not any different from the way some people here will lump all Christians into one ugly stereotype.

Michael

[Starboy]

Grace Centered Magazine (http://www.gracecentered.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=4051d6dc217affff;act=ST;f=2;t=6735;st=10)
Thanks, Neo, I was rambling before. You're right of course-atheism is disbelief in a deity, nothing more. What you fill that vacuum with, if anything, how you explain the existence of the universe absent a deity or designer of some kind is a different matter. I wasn't thinking properly last night. Duh.

Perhaps we should discuss the strengths/weaknesses of the claims of the Christian faith re Jesus, rather than focusing on "disproving" atrheism. If it could be established that the gospels are credible witnesses to the life and resurrection of Jesus, then we'd be getting somewhere. I'm a lot more conversant with the debate over the gospels and the whole Third Quest for the Historical Jesus. But that's a whole 'nother debate.

Pax vobiscum.

Good but no cigar. At least there was some progress made but the next poster shot it all to hell.

Starboy

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by spurly
In my opinion, loving people who disagree with you is not natural, it takes work... That's all I meant by that.

What you said, however, is "name calling and throwing around accusations. I can understand when non-Christians act like that, because that is their nature".

I agree with the statement that you made about how it's not natural to love people who disagree with you. Heck, as far as I'm concerned, it's not natural to love strangers with whom you discuss religion on the Internet. However, it's a long way from that to the statement you made originally, which is that it is natural for non-Christians to call names and throw around accusations.

(Perhaps you believe that if one is not showing love, then one has to be indulging in accusations and name-calling, but that is a false dichotomy.)

Now, do you not see any difference between those two statements of yours?

[Rhea]

Spurly. It is our nature to engage in name-calling and accusations?


Please tell me you can appreciate the irony of you using name-calling and accusations to accuse us of having that nature?


I submit that the evidence shows that it is SPURLY'S nature to engage in name-calling and accusations.



REBUTTAL?

[Talulah]

I think he is suggesting that Christians have the nature of Jesus, who they are supposed to be emulating and we have the sin or fleshly nature...or something like that. It is all biblically based. Still not the most enlightened view in my opinion, but not quite as offensive as I think ya'll are taking it.

Btw, I still haven't seen any proof that Christians act better than any other group as a whole, barring a few random exceptions perhaps.

[Rhea]

Originally posted by Talulah
I think he is suggesting that Christians have the nature of Jesus, who they are supposed to be emulating and we have the sin or fleshly nature...or something like that. It is all biblically based. Still not the most enlightened view in my opinion, but not quite as offensive as I think ya'll are taking it.


Just because the offensive statement is made by the bible, does not make the statement any less offensive.


The bible is offensive. This is one exhibit of that, I guess.

[spurly]

Originally posted by Rhea
Spurly. It is our nature to engage in name-calling and accusations?


Please tell me you can appreciate the irony of you using name-calling and accusations to accuse us of having that nature?


I submit that the evidence shows that it is SPURLY'S nature to engage in name-calling and accusations.



REBUTTAL?

Rhea,

I'm sorry this statement is being taken further than I ever intended it. I have met many people here who will engage in conversation without tearing others down. I should have said that.

(By the way I have also met some atheists who have higher moral standards that many Christians I know. As a Christian, I believe this is really sad. Christians are the ones who are supposed to have God living inside of them leading them to be holy, loving, etc. But many of them don't allow God to work in their lives).

I wish you could meet me in person. You would know that I don't have a mean bone in my body. My previous statement goes back to what I believe to be true about people in general, based on my understanding of God.

Kevin

[Mageth]

Originally posted by Starboy
Good but no cigar. At least there was some progress made but the next poster shot it all to hell.

Starboy

He sure did:

If someone tells me he's an athiest, I'm not going to spend much time trying to talk to him. Some, but not much. I figure if someone is that far gone (to hold such a nutty view), then I'm wasting what could be productive time with a possibly serious-minded individual.

OK, this Christian thinks that those who don't believe in his God or at least a god of some sort are not "serious-minded" and hold a "nutty view".

I'd ask him: if that's what he really thinks of atheists, why would he think that we would be interested in talking to him? And, trust me, the question of God is one I've considered, and still consider, quite seriously, and do not think my non-belief in a god is a "nutty view" at all, and have plenty of very good reasons to hold that view.

I'm more than willing to talk to any theists that wants to talk to me, and don't consider it a "waste of productive time" at all. I don't say that theists hold a "nutty view" and definitely don't think theists are not "serious-minded." Which one of us has a better approach to relationships with those that don't share our views?

And some may wonder why the exclusiveness, the intolerance, and the arrogant claim to exclusive truth among so many Christians is so apparent to me, and why it disturbs me as it does. This poster makes it quite evident.

And what of Jesus' directive to "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature"? Did Jesus say, "but don't waste your time with those that don't believe in God?"

Beyond that, what of the examplea of Jesus, and Paul, and...? Did they not "waste time" talking to those that didn't hold their belief? The poster should ask himself "WWJD?" Would Jesus spend time talking to atheists, or would he shun them?

[Rhea]

Originally posted by spurly
Rhea,

I'm sorry this statement is being taken further than I ever intended it.

Look on it as a learning lesson. If you will, that your fly was down and people are letting you know. Do I tell people to not comment on my fly being down when they point it out? Generally not, I say, "oh! Thank you for telling me!" and I zip up. Let me just say that the TONE of this post by me is friendly and somewhat bemused, so this is no rant or chastisement. Just as it's not a rant or chastisement when I say to a co-worker, "you'll want to zip up, there."


You tried to make your Christian siblings act better by telling them that they were becoming as low as Atheists.

Maybe this is a good time to consider whether you can use words that BUILD UP instead of using words that TEAR DOWN. "Instead of saying, "your fly is down like a slob" (or worse yet, "your fly is down like someone who lives in a trailer park") you might consider saying, "your fly is down, bet that's cold."


You know? I don't really care whether it's biblical or whether it is not expected by christians for atheists to be moral. I believe you bible ALSO tells you to not pass judgment. Is saying that you expect bad behavior from atheists not a judgment? So now you must look to the "log in your own eye" passage for help (rather urgently).

Rather than saying, "you took what I said too far!", one might say, "oh, thank you for pointing out how mean that sounded, I don't want to be mean."

My suggestions, leave the Atheists out of it. Just say, "Christians, we are not following our instructions! Shape up!"


But that's up to you. Although I will point out that if you aren't gracious about hearing that your fly is down, people will stop telling you when your fly is down (they're only doing you a favor after all) and you'll find that you spend more time in life walking around with your briefs showing and people assuming you are either deliberate or slovenly.

[spurly]

Originally posted by Rhea
Look on it as a learning lesson. If you will, that your fly was down and people are letting you know. Do I tell people to not comment on my fly being down when they point it out? Generally not, I say, "oh! Thank you for telling me!" and I zip up. Let me just say that the TONE of this post by me is friendly and somewhat bemused, so this is no rant or chastisement. Just as it's not a rant or chastisement when I say to a co-worker, "you'll want to zip up, there."


You tried to make your Christian siblings act better by telling them that they were becoming as low as Atheists.

Maybe this is a good time to consider whether you can use words that BUILD UP instead of using words that TEAR DOWN. "Instead of saying, "your fly is down like a slob" (or worse yet, "your fly is down like someone who lives in a trailer park") you might consider saying, "your fly is down, bet that's cold."


You know? I don't really care whether it's biblical or whether it is not expected by christians for atheists to be moral. I believe you bible ALSO tells you to not pass judgment. Is saying that you expect bad behavior from atheists not a judgment? So now you must look to the "log in your own eye" passage for help (rather urgently).

Rather than saying, "you took what I said too far!", one might say, "oh, thank you for pointing out how mean that sounded, I don't want to be mean."

My suggestions, leave the Atheists out of it. Just say, "Christians, we are not following our instructions! Shape up!"


But that's up to you. Although I will point out that if you aren't gracious about hearing that your fly is down, people will stop telling you when your fly is down (they're only doing you a favor after all) and you'll find that you spend more time in life walking around with your briefs showing and people assuming you are either deliberate or slovenly.

Thanks Rhea,

I will watch that a little more. As a matter of fact, I'm going to go back to the other board and modify my post.

Kevin

[Biff the unclean]

Originally posted by Mageth
Beyond that, what of the examplea of Jesus, and Paul, and...? Did they not "waste time" talking to those that didn't hold their belief? The poster should ask himself "WWJD?" Would Jesus spend time talking to atheists, or would he shun them?

Ssssshhhhh! Don't give them any ideas. Jesus told them exactly what to do with we Atheists in John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.



Personally, I'll settle for being ignored, thank you very much ;)

[Mageth]

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Ssssshhhhh! Don't give them any ideas. Jesus told them exactly what to do with we Atheists in John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Personally, I'll settle for being ignored, thank you very much ;)

Yeah, good point. But the damn guy contradicted himself so much on this and other topics! He also said, "Love your neighor as yourself" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". That leads me to believe that, if Christians take John 15:6 seriously, they should jump into the fire with you, or at least not complain if you toss them into the fire after witnessing them do so to a non-believer.

[Starboy]

I've only been to two Christian forums, 'Freedom's ring' and 'Grace Centered Magazine'. A question for those more worldly in the ways of Christians, is it common for Christians to be so medieval? It's almost as if the last four centuries never happened.

Starboy

[Asha'man]

Spurly,

This is the type of article that just reinforces my conviction that atheism is correct. If Mr. Goad had a good argument against atheism, he would have used it. Clearly, he does not know of one. Instead, he spews this drek. He appeals to emotion, popularity, strawmen, demonization, fallacies, and just plain bad thinking.

But if he has no good argument against atheism, then he also has no good argument in favor of what he does believe. There is apparently no rational evidence to support his Christianity, it’s purely a belief created out of wishful thinking and childhood indoctrination.

I don’t have to individually evaluate all the thousands of arguments for Christianity or atheism, I just have to read articles such as this to know that clear and rational thinking is on my side, and the other side is mostly shooting blanks.

[Biff the unclean]

Mike that last post about the kittens was a riot! :notworthy

But Kevin, those people are not only nutty they are a very nasty bunch. Why do you bother with them?

[mjbeam]

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
But Kevin, those people are not only nutty they are a very nasty bunch. Why do you bother with them?
I agree Kevin. You seem to be much too nice of a person to be hanging around there. They make the baby Jesus cry. I hope you find another message board or start one yourself.


-Mike

[NeoApostate]

Well, I've been banned. That's a first anywhere.

I made a polite post (which the guy who said I was eternally damned and that I was lucky he was even talking to me even admitted was polite), didn't try to start even a friendly debate, and even swallowed all pride and agreed not to post any more topics at the request of a single poster because my mere presence as an atheist (even without talking about atheist matters) was offensive and a disruption (his words).

And now I can't even browse the forums, as my login has been 'blacklisted' - and I think it's an IP ban. Of course no email from a moderator. No mention in the rules that atheists aren't allowed - I read it and followed it to the T.

Perhaps I should save this thread for the next time a certain theist poster here mentions how level-headed Christian messageboard moderators are and that they only ban atheists because we are are arrogant and rude.

[Starboy]

Yikes! It looks like they sent that thread to hell. What a loving bunch of assholes.

Starboy

[mjbeam]

I've still got the last post I made. I should have saved the whole thread. That should be SOP on any future incursions.

Posters,

This is not the place for atheists to debate Christians. In fact, I'd prefer atheists not be part of this board. There are a few exceptions, but as a general rule, they don't belong here.

This board is supposed to be a shelter from the storm for Christians, not an open field.

I'd prefer members of the infidels board not come here. If they want to allow Christians there, that's their business. If you are an atheist whose purpose here is to debate the existence of God, I respectfully ask you to stay away. Please delete your account so that you don't receive future email announcements from this board.

This board was not designed for this purpose.

Lee
Administrator
Well, as I stated, I wasn't intending to debate the existence of god. I was just interested in finding some common ground and clearing up a few misconceptions, but I know when I'm not wanted.

I'm pretty busy anyway. Moral deficiency is practically a full time job! You would be surprised how much work destroying the environment is! And then there is all the overhead involved with maintaining the atheist religion and practicing the secret atheist handshake. Some of us are getting together next week to fly over to the Red Sea and hide all of the chariots that we heard were found at the bottom.

Well, I better get back to the stove. I'm boiling some live kittens as I am wont to do on cold, clear winter mornings.


-Mike

[excreationist]

spurly:
I thought I'd link to the original article:

http://gcm.ibelieve.com/content.asp?CID=18266

Even though some of the posters here had vulgar criticisms of the article, I think it is ok for there to be a link to the article in this thread. That way others can check out the article for themselves to see whether people in this thread are being very fair. I mean I don't think any laws or rules for this board would be broken by me posting the link for that article.

I thought the article was pretty interesting and I thought his best arguments were those in favour of a designer God, but his arguments for a Christian designer God weren't very powerful.

[NeoApostate]

His arguments period weren't very powerful. Seriously, he does a horrible credit to Christian apologetics, and that's saying a lot.

I've heard better arguments from a teen Christian who was simply regurgitating what his youth pastor told him.

[spurly]

Originally posted by excreationist
spurly:
I thought I'd link to the original article:

http://gcm.ibelieve.com/content.asp?CID=18266

Even though some of the posters here had vulgar criticisms of the article, I think it is ok for there to be a link to the article in this thread. That way others can check out the article for themselves to see whether people in this thread are being very fair. I mean I don't think any laws or rules for this board would be broken by me posting the link for that article.

I thought the article was pretty interesting and I thought his best arguments were those in favour of a designer God, but his arguments for a Christian designer God weren't very powerful.

That's no problem. The administrator at GCMagazine just asked me to remove the link I had posted. I don't have any problems with you putting the link on here.

Kevin

[NeoApostate]

Well, it looks like Grace Centered Magazine forums has a new forum rule:

6. Though Grace-Centered would like to welcome all, we cannot. We respectfully ask that atheists do not particpate on this message board. It is our right to use this community as a shelter for Christians and their faith. Everyone has the right to believe what they choose but we ask that this board be compiled only of Christians and sincere seekers.

At least they had the decency to add that after doing a mass banning of people who weren't breaking any forum rules for the sake of future non-Christians who visit the site. Though I wonder if they long-time member atheists on that board were banned as well, or if they fit under some kind of grandfather clause.

By the way, what is a 'sincere seeker'? Is that one who doesn't disagree? And if they are still seeking and not affiliated with some other theistic religion or belief system, aren't they still techincally atheists?

[Naked Ape]

NeoApostate> By the way, what is a 'sincere seeker'? Is that one who doesn't disagree?
You have hit the nail on the head here.

I couldn't help but notice that many of the poisonous little puke stains from Freedom's Ring, like Booty and Cliftyman, are posting there too.
Did the whole board do the foot dust dance there before deleting all the unsaved posts, or did they just quietly scorch the earth?

I learned a lot by attempting to participate on the Freedoms Ring and lurking at GCM. I learned that despite my charitable nature, my loathing for those sorts of fish people has created an urge to simply avoid all possible contact with them. Thank the IPU that that fucked up CofC seems to be a peculiarly american thing.

Cheers,

Naked Ape