Contridictions in the Bible

[RobertLW]

Hello, I am new here and read in one of the threads that someone wanted to debate the contridictions in the Bible. That is something that I am willing to debate. I would be debating from the Christian point of view. Anyone interested?

[Silent Dave]

What do you mean when you say you are arguing "from the Christian point of view?" I ask because there are Christians who think the Bible is completely inerrant, Christians who think the Bible is mostly errant, and Christians who fall anywhere in the spectrum between. Whatever your point of view, your words make it seem like you believe it to be the only one that can properly be called "Christian." That strikes me as a rather arrogant example of wishful thinking.

Also, how much debate experience do you have? If you have no experience (or if you have more experience than William Lane Craig), that certainly won't pre-empt you from debating in FDD. It is my experience, however, that many Christians, particularly new Christians, jump into a debate with no experience or skill, wanting only to jump into the lion's den and earn theological brownie points. This may serve to reinforce your faith, but it doesn't make for a very good debate in a forum where we aim for high standards of rhetoric and reasoned exchange. If you haven't already, I would strongly suggest you research your position so as to give a thoughtful and informed defense; otherwise, believe me, you will be very easy pickings for any atheist who should come along. At the very minimum, please learn how to correctly spell "contradictions."

Having said that, welcome to the forum, and good luck in finding somebody to pick up your gauntlet!


Dave

[Vinnie]

You'll defend inerrancy?

What type of inspiration model? A qualititative or quantitative form?

Verbal plenary inspiration? If you accept Chicago-Statement style inerrancy I'll take a stab at demonstrating Bible contradictions.

WHats the format, rules, time limt, post length and all that jazz?

Vinnie

[RobertLW]

Thank you Silent Dave. I can see you are going to keep my on my toes. I would have been better served to be a bit more specific. What I meant to say is simply that I would like to defend Bible inerrancy.

Vinnie, Thank you. We can have a formal debate or an informal exchange, makes no difference to me. You can e-mail me if you wish to do an informal exchange. If you wish to have a formal debate, the scope can be a general debate or we can narrow the scope to a more specific area, I am open to suggestions. I would say 5 rounds would be enough for length or we can increase that if needed. I would like to make our statements in turns with you going first. The statements can be the maximum length of 5,000 words with a maximum of 10 days between statements. I think that Quotes should be allowed. Any other rules or format you want to observe, feel free to suggest any.

[Celsus]

Ooh, pass the popcorn!

Joel

[Vinnie]

Quotes are fine as far as I'm concerned. I will be citing select sources here and there. I just hope it doesn't turn into an "argument via quotes from URL" or "argument via this book I have" debate :)

And before we start I presume you will be endorsing "inerrancy of the autographs" alone?

I just have to go check and see how long 5,000 words is :lol:

And if I quote you in response, that is not considered a part of the 5,000 words is it?

Does IIDB host these debates on their site?

I request permission to include a transcript of this debate on my website. I will extend the same courtesy to you as well in regards to my postings.

Vinnie

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Hi guys,

Parameters look good so far. Just decide on the scope and a start date and that's all we need. :)

Originally posted by Vinnie
And if I quote you in response, that is not considered a part of the 5,000 words is it?

Yes, I'm afraid that quoting your opponent is included in the word count.


Does IIDB host these debates on their site?


Of course we do! The purpose of this current forum is to set up debates in the Formal Debates & Discussions (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=17) forum.


I request permission to include a transcript of this debate on my website. I will extend the same courtesy to you as well in regards to my postings.


I'll have to get an admin to address this.

Jason

[crazyfingers]

Originally posted by Vinnie

I request permission to include a transcript of this debate on my website. I will extend the same courtesy to you as well in regards to my postings.

Vinnie

We will need to ask the Board of Directors what the policy is.

In the mean time, can you describe your plan for their use?

[Vinnie]

Hi John. Generally whatever I write I put on my website in my library of articles (http://www.after-hourz.net/ri.html) so those visiting my site can see it.

When I asked about hosting I did not mean in the forum here. I know the debates take place there in that forum.

The question is are they archived on the net anywhere outside this forum? For example, do the forum debates go on a page like this:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/debates.html

If not that is what I was requesting permission to do with this one on my site. But I have no problem linking to it ifthey go on something like that as long as a copy of it is always available (for free) online somewheres and can be seen without requiring registration of any kind.

Yes, I'm afraid that quoting your opponent is included in the word count.

Fortunately that can be worked around (e.g. ""Re: the Food Law Error" and responding from there) :)

Vinnie

[RobertLW]

Hello Vinnie,

I am not sure what you meant by "endorsing inerrancy.....alone" and so not sure how to answer that question. If required, I will do research so I can write my statements properly for my defense, depending on your argument, and that may include asking other people their opinions.

I have no interest in an "argument via quotes" or "via this book I have". I think that we should be able to support our arguments with reference material as required, but only to support our arguments and not to make them for us.

I think that we need to narrow the scope down a bit, might help to be more specific. I'm not really sure how you would want to narrow it down. Any suggestions? We can argue the OT, NT, a specific book or a specific topic, i.e. God's promise to Abraham. I would rather do a specific topic but I am open to suggestions.

I think you should determine the start date since you will be going first.

One other thing, I just started posting on boards and so am not up with this technology so I may need help from time to time and any help would be greatly appreciated. I can't even figure out how to include quotes from previous posts. Pretty sad isn't it?

Thanks,

Robert

[wiploc]

Originally posted by RobertLW
I can't even figure out how to include quotes from previous posts.

You click the QUOTE button at the bottom of the post you are responding to.

Here's a labor saving technique: I made an email containing this block of text:

{/B}{/QUOTE}





{QUOTE}{B}

except that it uses square brackets instead of curly brackets. (I had to use curly brackets in the example, otherwise the example wouldn't have shown up here.)

Then, instead of sending the email, I saved it to the drafts file. So now, whenever I want interject my comment into text I am responding to, I don't have to type all that out again. I just copy that block of text from the saved email, and paste it into the post I'm responding to wherever I want to insert a snappy comeback.

crc

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Here's a link to the Chicago Statement on Biblical inerrancy (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/chicago.stm.txt), RobertLW, if it helps you to define the debate scope a little.

Jason

[Vinnie]

Originally posted by RobertLW
Hello Vinnie,

I am not sure what you meant by "endorsing inerrancy.....alone" and so not sure how to answer that question. If required, I will do research so I can write my statements properly for my defense, depending on your argument, and that may include asking other people their opinions.

I have no interest in an "argument via quotes" or "via this book I have". I think that we should be able to support our arguments with reference material as required, but only to support our arguments and not to make them for us.

I think that we need to narrow the scope down a bit, might help to be more specific. I'm not really sure how you would want to narrow it down. Any suggestions? We can argue the OT, NT, a specific book or a specific topic, i.e. God's promise to Abraham. I would rather do a specific topic but I am open to suggestions.

I think you should determine the start date since you will be going first.

One other thing, I just started posting on boards and so am not up with this technology so I may need help from time to time and any help would be greatly appreciated. I can't even figure out how to include quotes from previous posts. Pretty sad isn't it?

Thanks,

Robert

So you want to debate a specific example? I see no need to formally debate that with five five-thousand word posts. Just raise an issue in the BC&H forum and everyone can weigh in on it?

If you are worried about being unfairly inundated with a large list of a bunch of alleged contradictions that you will have to harmonize don't be. My initial argument won't even need to list specific examples though if I have room I will limit myself to three in the first installment. I'll give you the first two: The Tenth Plague. and the Food Laws in Mark 7.

It will be more about burden of proof and stuff like that.

I basically will raise three examples of errors I will argue in depth. One is moral, one is strictly internal and I am undecided on the third at this time. For balance I may make it an external one but I don't know.

I am willing to take it from there if you wish? Honestly, I have no interest in discussing God's promise to Abraham.

Let me know what you think and I'll then set a date for the first post.

Is your first post going to respond to my opening post of will it be a disconnected response of your own? Or am I basically leading the discussion? I post, you follow that up and then I re-follow that up until we are don? I'm cool with either one.

Vinnie

[Vinnie]

I just realized, this gives you the last word.... I'm cool with that though ;)

[RobertLW]

Vinnie,

Sounds fair. I looked at my calendar and I will be on a business trip and out of pocket from April 4 thru April 8. If you want to start after the 8th, that will be fine unless you don't mind the 5 day interruption.

My initial idea was to respond to your arguments. However, in the final round I can write my closing statement first to give you the last word. Whatever works best for you.

Thanks.

Robert

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Everything looks good so far. :) Since a 5 day interruption is well within a 10 day limit, then that shouldn't be a problem should Vinnie want to start prior to April 4th. RobertLW, since Vinnie is going first, you'll have the last word in the debate whether you like it or not. ;)

Here's a summary of the parameters. Do they all look agreeable? All we need is a start date.


(a) The topic of the debate: Resolved: the Bible is not inerrant and it contains clear examples of errors.

(b) The participants of the debate, and what positions they will argue: Vinnie will affirm and RobertLW will oppose.

(c) The scope of the debate: Using arguments based on the burden of proof, the debate will focus on 3 alleged biblical errors in depth.

(d) The length of the debate, in number of rounds: 5 rounds.

(e) Whether statements will be made concurrently or in turns, and if the latter, who goes first: In turns, starting with Vinnie.

(f) The maximum length of each statement: 5000 words.

(g) The maximum duration between statements: 10 days.

(h) The extent to which quotes from outside sources will be permitted: The debate participants should be able to support their arguments with reference material as required, but only to support their arguments and not to make the arguments for them.

(i) The starting date of the debate: ???????

(j) Any additional rules or a debate format that debate participants must observe: Standard format will be used.

[Vinnie]

I should have a first post up by this Wednesday at the latest.

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Originally posted by Vinnie
I should have a first post up by this Wednesday at the latest.

Whoa! :eek: Hold your horses amigo! :)

We'd be happy to set up a debate thread in FDD on Mar. 17th, but we just need RobertLW to confirm that he's okay with that start date.

Jason

[Vinnie]

I've written on the food laws and Biblical inerrancy and the tenth plague before so my first post will only need to adapt material into a cohesive whole. So whenever Roberty is ready :)

[The Other Michael]

Originally posted by Vinnie
I request permission to include a transcript of this debate on my website. I will extend the same courtesy to you as well in regards to my postings.

Vinnie

Hello Vinnie,

The decision is that each person has copyright to their own words, so you can certainly put your posts on your site, and if the other person agrees to the posting of their words that's fine by us.

We would appreciate a link back to the debate here.

thanks,
Michael
Administrator

[RobertLW]

Vinnie, If you want to begin your post on March 17, that is fine with me. My only concern is that with the 5 day interruption, I may need to have an extension for my post during that time period, depending on how fast you are with your second post. I am not anticipating needing any extra time and I am assuming that I can ask for an extension if needed. Thanks to all.

Robert

[RobertLW]

Moderators, I have question. Are you setting up a peanut gallery thread? If you are, where would that thread be located? Thanks.

Robert

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Thanks Robert,

We allow the occasional extension within reason. Hopefully the 10 day duration will be sufficient and you won't require one.

Just so you both know how the Formal Debates forum works, it is fully moderated. This means that your post in the FDD thread will remain invisible until it's validated by a moderator.

Anyways, now that we have everything, we'll start the debate thread on March 17th. Wow! :eek: That's a total of 3 upcoming formal debates scheduled to begin this month. :)

This thread will now be closed.

Jason

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Originally posted by RobertLW
Moderators, I have question. Are you setting up a peanut gallery thread? If you are, where would that thread be located? Thanks.

Robert

Yes. :) We will set up a Peanut Gallery thread in the Biblical Criticism & History (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=60) forum once the debate gets underway. You and Vinnie won't be allowed to post in the Peanut Gallery till after the debate's over though.

Jason