Do all rocks go to Heaven?

[breathilizer]

No, seriously. Hear me out.

Humans are made of matter and energy.

So is everything else in the universe.

If we go to Heaven, then does everything else go as well?

Is the only reason we aren't currently in Heaven that we are alive?

Then, are rocks (and such) already in Heaven waiting for us?

Wouldn't it be good, regardless of the fact that rovks aren't alive, to send rocks to Heaven? It wouldn't be bad, would it?

If it is necessary to believe, then why hasn't God given rocks the ability to believe?

Why do these atoms which we are composed of get free will, and rocks do not?

Wouldn't other atoms be put to better use if they were alive and had free will?

-------

Use these questions to guide the convo to what I'm gettin at, as I am not 100% sure myself

[mecca777]

Jesus said a wise man builds his house upon a rock. Therefore, yes.

[breathilizer]

Originally posted by mecca777
Jesus said a wise man builds his house upon a rock. Therefore, yes.

Huh? Is that to say that Heaven is built on a rock? Or that the rock gets to go with the guy to Heaven?

[Heurismus]

This is getting very interesting!!! Heurismus.

[mecca777]

Originally posted by breathilizer
Huh? Is that to say that Heaven is built on a rock? Or that the rock gets to go with the guy to Heaven? Jesus referred to Simon Peter as "his rock". Therefore, yes again.

Furthermore, Christian rock. I rest my case.

[Edwin]

Do all rocks go to Heaven?
No, evil rocks go to Hell.

[Gawdawful]

Originally posted by Edwin
No, evil rocks go to Hell. One of those evil rocks from hell hit me in the head, gashing my head open requiring 16 stitches to close. Those little demon rocks that get in my hiking boots are a bit aggravating too.


Warren

[Magus55]

Originally posted by breathilizer
No, seriously. Hear me out.

Humans are made of matter and energy.

So is everything else in the universe.

If we go to Heaven, then does everything else go as well?

Is the only reason we aren't currently in Heaven that we are alive?

Then, are rocks (and such) already in Heaven waiting for us?

Wouldn't it be good, regardless of the fact that rovks aren't alive, to send rocks to Heaven? It wouldn't be bad, would it?

If it is necessary to believe, then why hasn't God given rocks the ability to believe?

Why do these atoms which we are composed of get free will, and rocks do not?

Wouldn't other atoms be put to better use if they were alive and had free will?

-------

Use these questions to guide the convo to what I'm gettin at, as I am not 100% sure myself Human bodies are only made out of matter. You seem to be forgetting the concept of a soul, which rocks don't possess.

[Sarpedon]

Ah, yes, the soul. That invisible, undetectible, and apparently useless thing that makes all the difference between us and the lesser animals. You know why alchohol is sometimes called "spirits": because back in primitive times, before they understood how the brain works, they invented the thing called the soul to explain it. Of course, since getting drunk changes your behavior, and since physical things cant affect the soul, they imagined that some kind of evil creature dwelt in the liquor to make you crazy. Of course, such primitive superstitions are obsolete today.

Anyway, according to the bible, heaven IS made out of rocks. Check out revelations: where it says that the gates are made out of precious stones, etc. Apparently only valueable stone goes to heaven, baser stones, basalt, limestone, tufa, granite etc is damned. Its consistent with the idea of a deity who creates people for the sole purpose of damning them.

[Corona688]

Originally posted by Magus55
Human bodies are only made out of matter. You seem to be forgetting the concept of a soul, which rocks don't possess. You seem to be forgetting that souls do not exist, therefore humans don't have them either. I could be wrong, though; if you have any factual evidence for the existence of a soul, I would love to hear it.

[TheRealityOfMan]

Here are some parts from a tasteless Christian chorus which might help explain...

Well the rocks cried out "I'm burning too!"
Well the rocks cried out "I'm burning too!
Well the rocks cried out "I'm burning too -
and I wanna go to heaven just the same as you!"
There's no hiding place down there!

While I'm at it I'll just include these other verses that I would have to sing out loudly when I was in my church. I was always slightly disturbed that people really loved this song there

Well the sinner man he gambled and fell!
Well the sinner man he gambled and fell!
Well the sinner man he gambled and fell
For he tried to get to heaven but he had to go to hell!
There's no hiding place down there!

Oh sinner man your hearts like steel
Oh sinner man your hearts like steel
Oh sinner man your hearts like steel-
but the fire in hell's gonna make you feel
There's no hiding place down there!

etc.

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Magus55
You seem to be forgetting the concept of a soul

That's exactly what it is - a concept. Like the concept of unicorns, or the concept of purgatory. Not fact-based.

[breathilizer]

Originally posted by Magus55
Human bodies are only made out of matter. You seem to be forgetting the concept of a soul, which rocks don't possess.

Concept: Something formed in the mind; a thought or notion.

Who says rocks don't have souls anyway? There is just as much (aka: as little) evidence to support a rock's soul as there is to support a human soul.

Back off me, Magus. I'm on a roll... A ROCK and roll, that is! ;)

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Corona688
You seem to be forgetting that souls do not exist, therefore humans don't have them either. I could be wrong, though; if you have any factual evidence for the existence of a soul, I would love to hear it. Why ask a theological question if you don't want a theological answer? No by definition the existence of a soul can't be proven because its outside the testing ability of science.

[Ellis14]

Originally posted by breathilizer
Back off me, Magus. I'm on a roll... A ROCK and roll, that is! ;)
*groan*

:D

[Ellis14]

Originally posted by Magus55
Why ask a theological question if you don't want a theological answer? No by definition the existence of a soul can't be proven because its outside the testing ability of science.
This is a good point by Magus. If you are going to ask a theological question then you have to take the theological paraphenalia that goes with it. So no: rocks wouldn't go to heaven because they don't have souls.

[CoffeeFiend]

Originally posted by breathilizer
No, seriously. Hear me out.

Humans are made of matter and energy.

So is everything else in the universe.

If we go to Heaven, then does everything else go as well?

Is the only reason we aren't currently in Heaven that we are alive?

Then, are rocks (and such) already in Heaven waiting for us?

Wouldn't it be good, regardless of the fact that rovks aren't alive, to send rocks to Heaven? It wouldn't be bad, would it?

If it is necessary to believe, then why hasn't God given rocks the ability to believe?

Why do these atoms which we are composed of get free will, and rocks do not?

Wouldn't other atoms be put to better use if they were alive and had free will?

-------

Use these questions to guide the convo to what I'm gettin at, as I am not 100% sure myself

How do you know rocks don't have free will. Maybe they have just decided to do nothing... or due to their nature, just can't act out their will. But hey ! Some rocks may have souls. I mean what if a human soul gets stuck in a doom stone and its MPRCI melfunctions (Metaphysical to physical reality communication interface) and it homes in on the rock and interacts with it as it would with a human body.

OTH maybe atoms are all sentient entities, and they are willfully producing the universe we live in. We really can't know...

[Ellis14]

No but we can withhold endorsing a pointless and fruitless hypothesis that adds nothing to our understanding, isn't required to explain anything, and creates more mysteries than what it attempts to solve. Ergo, Occam's razor: ergo Atom Sentient Theory dispensed with, same for rocks...

[CoffeeFiend]

Originally posted by Ellis10
No but we can withhold endorsing a pointless and fruitless hypothesis that adds nothing to our understanding, isn't required to explain anything, and creates more mysteries than what it attempts to solve. Ergo, Occam's razor: ergo Atom Sentient Theory dispensed with, same for rocks...

Right - but, but... but - shouldn't we still sometimes talk to rocks... you know, just in case. It would be nice of us, imagine being a senient rock, unable to do nothing, it would be very boring most of the time.

[TheRealityOfMan]

Maybe they go places in the heads

[Ellis14]

Originally posted by CoffeeFiend
Right - but, but... but - shouldn't we still sometimes talk to rocks... you know, just in case. It would be nice of us, imagine being a sentient rock, unable to do nothing, it would be very boring most of the time.
I can't argue with this logic! Perhaps you have a point. I'll be back tomorrow, just going outside in the garden to make a new friend.

[Gawen]

I have a loverly rock garden in front of my house. And every rock therein is its own entity...has its own aura...personality. And not a one talks back to me when I talk to them...(thank you very much). I sure hope that when I go to heaven, all my rocks come with me. But I won't discriminate against those OTHER rocks that lie in my back yard. They're pretty cool to....:D

Matter of fact, I'm taking my favourite rock to Hard Rock Cafe (Dallas) tomorrow night!

{edited to add} Ellis10...there's a special rock for you, and you'll know it when you see it...:D

[BioBeing]

Originally posted by CoffeeFiend
...unable to do nothing, it would be very boring most of the time. [grammar nazi]I think you mean "unable to do anything".[/grammar nazi]

But what about the healing power of crystals? Any New Age hippy will tell you (at length, if you are not careful) that rocks DO have powers... maybe this is their soul, interacting with your soul?

[CoffeeFiend]

Originally posted by BioBeing
[grammar nazi]I think you mean "unable to do anything".[/grammar nazi]

But what about the healing power of crystals? Any New Age hippy will tell you (at length, if you are not careful) that rocks DO have powers... maybe this is their soul, interacting with your soul?

Could be.... if we have souls.


But the thing that somewhat bothers me is the fact that neither religious people or us atheists have any good criteria (except for observation and comparison with other things we consider to be sentient) by which to classify some entities as being able to experience something in some way and others as not. All the stuff in the universe basically acts the same way. We are at the "mercy" of the natural laws as much as the rocks are. Since we don't know what it is that makes a conscious entity, we really can't point out what a rock, or any other object for that matter, comes short of when it comes to having some sort of a consciousness. The concept of a soul doesn't really help either, like said before, if can't even detect the soul in some way, how can we say that rocks and other inanimate object don't have souls or if there are souls at all ?

But until somebody solves that problem, I guess we have to place our bets on a complex nervous system as the "generator" of consciousness.

[Freodin]

Originally posted by CoffeeFiend
Could be.... if we have souls.


But the thing that somewhat bothers me is the fact that neither religious people or us atheists have any good criteria (except for observation and comparison with other things we consider to be sentient) by which to classify some entities as being able to experience something in some way and others as not. All the stuff in the universe basically acts the same way. We are at the "mercy" of the natural laws as much as the rocks are. Since we don't know what it is that makes a conscious entity, we really can't point out what a rock, or any other object for that matter, comes short of when it comes to having some sort of a consciousness. The concept of a soul doesn't really help either, like said before, if can't even detect the soul in some way, how can we say that rocks and other inanimate object don't have souls or if there are souls at all ?

But until somebody solves that problem, I guess we have to place our bets on a complex nervous system as the "generator" of consciousness.


This is why there is such a thing as faith. If you have "divine relevation", you don´t need to "detect".

And if your divine relevation tells you that you have a soul, while the rock does not have a soul, than it is so. Case closed - no appeal.

[CoffeeFiend]

Originally posted by Freodin
This is why there is such a thing as faith. If you have "divine relevation", you don´t need to "detect".

And if your divine relevation tells you that you have a soul, while the rock does not have a soul, than it is so. Case closed - no appeal.

Yeah... and some of the people who think that way have the nerve to label us as evil close minded materialist naturalist evolutionists with no imagination :rolleyes:

[Gawen]

Yeah... and some of the people who think that way have the nerve to label us as evil close minded materialist naturalist evolutionists with no imagination In other words....they label us rocks....;)

[Oxymoron]

Originally posted by Magus55
No by definition the existence of a soul can't be proven because its outside the testing ability of science.
As usual, a theist creates a strawman "science".

Here is what I think you think it means: F=ma, DNA, how to make plastic, how nuclear fusion works... Here is what it actually means:

Knowledge obtained via the scientific method.

The scientific method is this:

1.) Observe.
2.) Hypothesise and model.
3.) Predict.
4.) Perform a test.
5.) Go to 1.

Anything that is observable - by which is meant measurable, by which is meant has an effect on something else that changes that thing and the change can be registered (and for brownie points quantified) yields itself amenable to "scientific" study.

Now, presumably souls have an observable effect on something - they allegedly change "dead" stuff into "living" stuff. So I fail to see how scientific investigation has nothing to say about souls, because if they have no observable effect on anything then insisting they exist is, well just plain IPU.

[Ellis14]

Originally posted by Oxymoron
As usual, a theist creates a strawman "science".

Here is what I think you think it means: F=ma, DNA, how to make plastic, how nuclear fusion works... Here is what it actually means:

Knowledge obtained via the scientific method.

The scientific method is this:

1.) Observe.
2.) Hypothesise and model.
3.) Predict.
4.) Perform a test.
5.) Go to 1.

Anything that is observable - by which is meant measurable, by which is meant has an effect on something else that changes that thing and the change can be registered (and for brownie points quantified) yields itself amenable to "scientific" study.

Now, presumably souls have an observable effect on something - they allegedly change "dead" stuff into "living" stuff. So I fail to see how scientific investigation has nothing to say about souls, because if they have no observable effect on anything then insisting they exist is, well just plain IPU.
You are completely right oxymoron, except that if the soul has any kind of alledged empirical effect and that effect does not actually prove anything about the soul, we know quite well that we'll get an ad hoc excuse from the 'soul' believer.

I think the reason theists propose a metaphysical soul is exactly because it cannot be tested.

The "mind-body" problem for instance, shows the soul notion is absurd. Yet instead of accepting this as scientific proof that the soul probably doesn't exist, a theist will say that it's a "mystery" or something. There will always be something that can excuse or explain away the 'soul' notion, which moves the idea beyond the realms of science. This isn't due to a flaw in science, but because science doesn't deal with unfalsifiable dogmatic beliefs.

[robtech]

The Biblical text of Revelation states that Heaven will be on Earth during the thousand year reign of Christ. The question is for everyone. What do you belief??:)

[Heurismus]

Originally posted by robtech
The Biblical text of Revelation states that Heaven will be on Earth during the thousand year reign of Christ. The question is for everyone. What do you belief??:)

The Last Thousand year Reign was a bloody mess; the next attempt will be even messier, not messianic!!! Hence my stand against children with their finger on the button. But back to rocks, Kobolds and Trogladytes!!! Please continue!!! H