A (honest) question about homosexuality. (no gay bashing)

[JusticeMachine]

I've watched shows and read articles on homosexuality, transgender and the like, but there are somethings I still don't understand.

On one hand there is a group who denies that there is a definitive difference between the genders (short of XY & XX) and that the differences are in the upbring/environment of the individual.

Then there are those who believe that people can be mis-gendered or the physicality of their gender doesn't match their mental gender. Which kind of implies that the gender is more genitic than environmental.

That said, here is an interesting question:

Does a homosexual (man or woman) fall in love with someone based on there gender first and then the personality?

Or maybe say: If social stigmas were neutral on a persons sexual orientation, would most people be bi-sexual or would certain people still gravitate to one given gender?

Is it being attacted to masculinity that makes a man homosexual, or being attracted to someone with a penis?

Is a homosexual man attracted to a transgender, say a person who was a man, still has the penis, but has taken the drugs that give the physique of a woman?

Would a homosexual man be attracted to a transgendered woman, still in possession of here vagina, but having the physique of a man?

I am confused on what attraction is I guess and how it is determined.

Again, no gay bashing allowed.

[simian]

Why ask the question only of the homosexual population? For example:
"Does a heterosexual (man or woman) fall in love with someone based on their gender first and then the personality?"
It is at least a good of a question as the one you asked and one that many people can answer.

Assuming you are heterosexual, how would you answer the question? Why assume the answer is different for another person just because of sexual orientation?

Simian

[JusticeMachine]

Originally posted by simian
Why ask the question only of the homosexual population? For example:
"Does a heterosexual (man or woman) fall in love with someone based on their gender first and then the personality?"
It is at least a good of a question as the one you asked and one that many people can answer.

Assuming you are heterosexual, how would you answer the question? Why assume the answer is different for another person just because of sexual orientation?

Simian

I didn't mean to singleout homosexuals exactly, so we can open it up to all genders. The questions can really be asked to all sexual orientations.

Myself, to be honest, I can put a finger in what it is that I find attractive? I have had experiences with both sexes, but gravitate towards women. That is part of the reason that I write ask these questions.

[Greger]

I don't know if I've misunderstood everything now, but isn't it about masculine and feminine behavior? I'm personally drawn to girls who have both. Girls who want to be protected and want to protect, for example. Sorta... Does that make sense?

For example, when you look at a picture of a beautiful brunette in a dress, you expect her to have a certain feminine personality. If you think she has the feminine personality with the blushing and girlyness, you'd be attracted. If you think she's a lumberjack for a living, drink beer with the guys, burp loudly and watching sports while eating chips like a slob, you wouldn't be as attracted, would you?

Bad example, but you see the point I'm trying to make.

[JusticeMachine]

Originally posted by Greger
I don't know if I've misunderstood everything now, but isn't it about masculine and feminine behavior? I'm personally drawn to girls who have both. Girls who want to be protected and want to protect, for example. Sorta... Does that make sense?

For example, when you look at a picture of a beautiful brunette in a dress, you expect her to have a certain feminine personality. If you think she has the feminine personality with the blushing and girlyness, you'd be attracted. If you think she's a lumberjack for a living, drink beer with the guys, burp loudly and watching sports while eating chips like a slob, you wouldn't be as attracted, would you?

Bad example, but you see the point I'm trying to make.

I understand what you are saying. What if you went on a date with that brunette and she was everything you wanted in a significant other, except she had a penis? What if it felt like she was you soul mate (if you believe in that kind of thing)?

Do you think if you were raise in a society where gender was neutral or amoral, would you look through her male part and be just as attracted to her?

[Greger]

Originally posted by JusticeMachine
Do you think if you were raise in a society where gender was neutral or amoral, would you look through her male part and be just as attracted to her? I am raised in a society where gender is pretty amoral. :D Sorta... Everyone's too naive to care over here ;)

I'm quite sure that I could learn to overcome the associations I have with penises and masculinity & with vaginas and femininity. But right now, I don't know if I could, or how I would feel afterwards. I'm pretty set on the thought of a woman right now for many reasons (breasts mainly :D ;) alot of physical characteristics... Hips, girlish tummy, ability to bare children... Such things). I don't know. It's an interesting question. I'll have to think it over. :)

[JusticeMachine]

Just to give a candid view into my possible motivations:

I have had sexual relations with both sexes, but I only have ever desired to have a initimate relationship with a woman. By that I mean, I have only every desired to have a one night stand with a man, no kissing or anything, just intercourse. Whereas with a woman I co-habitate, and.....well lover her.

Based on this, I am rather confused myself on why I, or others have a preferance toward one or the other. So that is part of why I wanted to get others input. What makes attraction? Both sexual for want of lust (for lack of a better word) and an intimate binding relationship for procreation or otherwise?

[JusticeMachine]

Everyone's too naive to care over here

Naive? I guess it is my american ignorace that would lead me to believe in a society so much more laxed about sex, than our own, I thought Swedish people to be more worldly on the whole, about such things.

[Greger]

Originally posted by JusticeMachine
Naive? I guess it is my american ignorace that would lead me to believe in a society so much more laxed about sex, than our own, I thought Swedish people to be more worldly on the whole, about such things. I don't really know what I meant with that :D

I think I meant that Sweden kicked God out a generation or two ago, but are still rather naive about things. Probably because the state cares for us from the cradle to the grave. All the bullshit about sex/homosexuality/masturbation/etc being bad comes from the bible, and since we don't follow its teachings, we don't have that problem. We just don't care. It's natural for pretty much everyone around here (at least everyone I know). Even the sectist Christians downstairs think gay people are just as decent as the rest of us.

Of course, there's jackasses here too, but they're everywhere...

We're open to most things, if you can get past the tribe mentality we have going on over here hehe.

EDIT:
We're probably far from as naive as the average American seems to be. ;)

EDIT:
Nevermind my gibbertalk. I'll get back to you on the naivity issue tomorrow. Too tired to make any real progress tonight.

[tronvillain]

I doubt that the group that claims that orientation or gender identity is all about environment and upbringing is all that large these days. Of course, you have to keep in mind that something having a physical basis doesn't necessarily mean that it has a genetic basis (other than in the sense that it is a possibility inherent in the "normal" genes), though of course there could be unique genetic components.

Now, I do not think your question makes a lot of sense. People are initially attracted on the basis of physical characteristics, and then fall in love based on a more complete set of characterstics, including personality, beliefs, preferences, and so on. If social stigmas were neutral on a persons sexual orientation, I suspect that most people would still gravitate towards one sex or the other, just as they do today. Take me: I am initially attracted to someone based on their feminine physical characteristics, and whether or not I am

JusticeMachine:
Is it being attacted to masculinity that makes a man homosexual, or being attracted to someone with a penis?

Is a homosexual man attracted to a transgender, say a person who was a man, still has the penis, but has taken the drugs that give the physique of a woman?

Would a homosexual man be attracted to a transgendered woman, still in possession of here vagina, but having the physique of a man?
What is "masculinity"? Unless you are referring to physical masculine characterstics, I have no idea what you are talking about. I would have to say that it is being attracted to physical masculine characteristics that makes a man homosexual.

So, a gay man is unlikely to be attracted to a "shemale." It is heterosexuals with a taste for the exotic or bisexuals who are likely to be attracted to such individuals, since they have essentially all the female physical characteristics save one.

And, a gay man would likely to be attracted to a transgendered woman, just as I would be likely to be attracted to a transgendered man, but we would probably both be at least a little upset at the unexpected genitals. If the persons in question were attractive enough otherwise, we might be able to overlook it.

[Nostalgic Pushhead]

Tronvillian is completely right (besides the use of the word "shemale", unless you're talking about a prostitute).

Gender is completely, totally, irrevecobly physical or genetic. There is absolutely NO 'nurture' or environmental aspect to it. At all. None.

There IS cultural, environmental influence on gender ROLE, which is why dresses are femenine and ties and masculine (right now).

Anyway, we see through our senses... if a guy sees someone, and he think its a girl, and they are attracted to girls, he'll be attracted to her, for her looks. If he find out she's a pre-op transsexual, it doesn't mean he's gay. Of course not. I hate that line of reasoning.


Is a homosexual man attracted to a transgender, say a person who was a man, still has the penis, but has taken the drugs that give the physique of a woman?

Transgender isn't a noun. And no a gay man wouldn't be attracted to the pre-op transsexual, because if he's gay he probably doesn't like breasts, and well, they'd probably turn him off, along with the whole "female" thing.


Would a homosexual man be attracted to a transgendered woman, still in possession of here vagina, but having the physique of a man?

Yes, of course.

[Luciano]

Originally posted by JusticeMachine
I understand what you are saying. What if you went on a date with that brunette and she was everything you wanted in a significant other, except she had a penis? What if it felt like she was you soul mate (if you believe in that kind of thing)?

Do you think if you were raise in a society where gender was neutral or amoral, would you look through her male part and be just as attracted to her?

Well this happened to me.
I'm straight, I never was interested to men, but 4 months ago I fell in love with a pre op transexual girl.
To me she's a girl and seeing her photos of some years ago, when she was still living as a "male", she always had very feminine features.
It's not a relationship based on sex as she don't desire to have it until her surgery and she lives in Texas while I'm Italian :rolleyes:
Knowing her completely changed my view on TS people, until some months in my mind to love a TS girl was unbelievable.
I love her because she's a wonderful person, even if I must say she's a beautiful girl too :p

Luciano

[Nostalgic Pushhead]

You are awesome.

[Leah]

Originally posted by JusticeMachine
Does a homosexual (man or woman) fall in love with someone based on there gender first and then the personality?
If this was only so easy. There are people whose mind fascinates one, and then there are people whose bodies fascinate one, then there are people whose entire way of moving, geastures, voice fascinate one.
Each of the above three I have experienced in both genders.

But to actually fall in love all the above need to match (where as the body plays the least importance, it only helps). Also does the other person need to feel simular for me, it's a two-way thing, after all.

Not really a matter of gender, I don't think. Just that when as a female one actually feels in a special way for another female, the likeliness for her to feel alike is horribly low, so ones does not even bother to follow anything up.

[tronvillain]

Piscez:
Tronvillian is completely right (besides the use of the word "shemale", unless you're talking about a prostitute).
Actually, tronvillain was thinking of porn, not generally known for its political correctness. *chuckle*

[Luciano]

Originally posted by Piscez
You are awesome.
I hope
a) it's for me
b) it's a compliment :D

actually she thinks I'm handsome and that means her good taste was surgically removed :p

Seriously, I think Leah is right, I fell in love to my girlfriend before to see her, reading her post, writing mails each other, reading a short story she wrote.
I was stunned by what was happening, I couldn't believe it.
I was thinking things as "internet romance it's a farce", etc. but at last I had to admit I was in love with her.
With have a video chat (2 hours or more each) at least 2 times every week, we have have many things in common, share many interests and often we write the same thing in the same moment :boohoo:

Ok, now I will stop :D

Luciano