Secular countries

[mike all together]

So, which are the top secular countries around the world and are they recruiting disgruntled Americans, by chance?

And do they have a www.monsterjobs.xx?

Sometimes I really hate being here. :D

[clark]

The most secular countries, somewhat in order, would probably be:

- Australia/New Zealand
- Scandinavian Countries
- Rest of Western Europe (UK, France, Belgium, Netherlands)
- Japan
- Eastern Europe
- Canada
- Southern Europe
- Mexico (according to a buddy of mine from Ixtapa, priests can't even wear their collars in public as the government is very secular, though the Catholic church permeates society)
- US (college towns and major cities outside of the bible belt, especially West Coast and East Coast north of DC)

Unfortunately, none are aggressively recruiting Americans, gruntled or disgruntled, to my knowledge :).

THOUGHTfully Yours,
Clark

[AlphaandOmega]

Originally posted by clark
The most secular countries, somewhat in order, would probably be:

- Australia/New Zealand
- Scandinavian Countries
- Rest of Western Europe (UK, France, Belgium, Netherlands)
- Japan
- Eastern Europe
- Canada
- Southern Europe
- Mexico (according to a buddy of mine from Ixtapa, priests can't even wear their collars in public as the government is very secular, though the Catholic church permeates society)
- US (college towns and major cities outside of the bible belt, especially West Coast and East Coast north of DC)

Unfortunately, none are aggressively recruiting Americans, gruntled or disgruntled, to my knowledge :).

THOUGHTfully Yours,
Clark

I doubt this seeing how most of the nations you list have over a 90% Christian population while the US is only around 75%. Many of these nations have very high Roman Catholic population expesially Spain, I would say spain is full of fundies, also you can see the Roman Catholic in the abortion laws of many of these Nations some of the ones you list ban abortion except when medically necessary or rape but even then those nation limit rape abortions to the first 12 weeks.

[clark]

Originally posted by AlphaandOmega
I doubt this seeing how most of the nations you list have over a 90% Christian population while the US is only around 75%. Many of these nations have very high Roman Catholic population expesially Spain, I would say spain is full of fundies, also you can see the Roman Catholic in the abortion laws of many of these Nations some of the ones you list ban abortion except when medically necessary or rape but even then those nation limit rape abortions to the first 12 weeks.

Many of the nations that are listed as 90% Christian are basically nominal anyway. In most Scandinavian countries, most citizens are members of the Lutheran church but never attend. I've read that in Finland about 4% of the population ever attends religious services (in the US 40-45% regularly attend). The church also has little say in government in Scandinavian countries.

Spain would be less secular than other countries of Western Europe, but similar to what I listed as Southern Euope. France has a high nominal Catholic population, but the church has little influence in government. Few European countries, to my knowledge, have such draconian abortion laws, with Ireland and perhaps Poland being exceptions.

THOUGHTfully Yours,
Clark

[AlphaandOmega]

Spain have laws that greatly restrict Abortion. In addition, Spain has a near 100% Roman Catholic population. Most of their people DO go to church. I would say the US is far more secular then Spain and a few other European Nation. I doubt the US is highly religious for we have some of the most Liberal abortion laws in the world if not the most. The three EU Nation that ban abortion for personal reasons are Spain, Portugal, and Ireland. Although these are probably the least secular nations in Europe not including Vatican City.


If you want a secular Nation then it is China. China is very secular. Although not many rights either.

[Krieger]

Originally posted by Michael Fornal
So, which are the top secular countries around the world and are they recruiting disgruntled Americans, by chance?

And do they have a www.monsterjobs.xx?

Sometimes I really hate being here. :D Cuba's government is officially secular and they would be happy if you defected to there from the United States. :D Actually, you have to live there for five years before you can apply for citizenship (like most other countries). If you (know Spanish) and are college aged, the University of Havana is also very good.

Despite Washington's economic blockade, Cuba trades with the People's Republic of China. Cuba also has an friends/allies in Venezuela, DPRK, Vietnam, Belarus, Moldova, Laos, PRC and many other countries. They also have nice weather...

Here is a link to the English edition of Granma Internacional (the main newspaper). (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/)

[Luciano]

Originally posted by AlphaandOmega
Spain have laws that greatly restrict Abortion. In addition, Spain has a near 100% Roman Catholic population. Most of their people DO go to church. I would say the US is far more secular then Spain and a few other European Nation. I doubt the US is highly religious for we have some of the most Liberal abortion laws in the world if not the most. The three EU Nation that ban abortion for personal reasons are Spain, Portugal, and Ireland. Although these are probably the least secular nations in Europe not including Vatican City.


If you want a secular Nation then it is China. China is very secular. Although not many rights either.
I can't speak for these countries but here in Italy we have a 90% of Cahtolics too, but nominally only.
I know only two people going to church: my mom and my aunt, both of them over 70 years old.
The bizarre thing is how many politics pay (lip) homage to the Catholic church, but "normal" people don't let religion influence their lives very much.
There are Catholic fundies, as Opus Dei (very bad) and comunione e Liberazione, but they are considered nuts and bastard hypocrites by the other Catholics too :D
I'm an atheist by almost 28 years and Buddhist by 18 and never had problems with parents, friends or at work.

Ciao
Luciano

[Julian]

In Denmark you are automatically counted as a Lutheran at the moment of birth. Once you start paying taxes you automatically pay a church tax but it is optional!!!! Only 2% of the population attend church or express a strong belief in god. I am sure that christians, when counting up their followers, count all of Denmark's population. Religion was never an issue for me until I moved here. In Denmark religion is never really talked about and it can automatically be assumed that anyone you meet on the street is a non-believer. Unfortunately, the Danes show a high degree of belief in superstition and pseudo-science. Ya just can't win...

Julian

PS. The government pay the priests. Which is lucky for them since the churches are near empty every Sunday. I went to hear a sermon (for non-religious reasons) in a church once and there were only about 5 people in attendance and they were all over 80 years old. This was in a large church in Copenhagen, a city of 1.5 million inhabitants.

[McGargoyle]

Here (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79587) I posted about Germany.

[A. Uiet bhor]

Here in the UK, we have weak attendance but our form of belief, one we made for ourselves is so moderate, and it’s little more than ceremony. I quite like it, I’m irreligious normally, but, although I live for the day when belief in god is re-classified as a mental illness I admit I would miss the local church bell, and gathering in the grounds. Its familiar and cosy, unlike those scary people in the bible belt I keep hearing about, I’d hate to have them on my doorstep.

[Per]

Originally posted by Julian
In Denmark you are automatically counted as a Lutheran at the moment of birth.

If your parents get you baptised in the state church.


Once you start paying taxes you automatically pay a church tax but it is optional!!!!

If one is a member of the state church one pays the church tax. If one is not a member one does not. I suppose you could call that optional. ;)


Unfortunately, the Danes show a high degree of belief in superstition and pseudo-science. Ya just can't win...

Really? High? How do you mean?

[Straight Hate]

I cannot speak for Canada at large, but many areas are quite secular. Southern Manitoba has a very prominent bible belt, which diminishes the further north you go out of 'Mennonite country'. Winnipeg is mix-and-match. Many Christians, but also very liberal. We've had an openly gay mayor win two terms and I don't think I've ever heard anyone attack him for it. Even the local 'real issues' talk show guy Charles Adler seems to like him.


Anyway, I digress... Long story short, there are religious fruitcakes everywhere.

[BigBlue2]

According to the 2001 Census Australians' religious affiliations were: 27% Catholic, 21% Anglican, 21% other Christian denominations (mainly Uniting Church) and 5% non-Christian religions. I'm guessing that at least half of the Catholics and Anglicans ticked the relevant box out of habit rather than conviction. Regular Church attendance amongst the two most common affliations is low.

Just over one-quarter of all Australians either stated that they had no religion (15.5%), or did not adequately respond to the question (11.7%).

Our current Prime Minister and Governor-General are religious but their beliefs have little or no impact on the way they carry out their jobs. We have had atheist or agnostic PM's and G-G's in the past. There is only one known fundy in the federal cabinet - Health Minister Tony "the mad Monk" Abbott, who is a devout Catholic. Religious fruitcakes are viewed with either bemusement, disdain or suspicion, and running a political campaign based on strong religious views will get you nowhere*.

Fundy groups like the Jehovahs Witnesses or Mormons are having a rough time recruiting members. Religion is usually not a topic of conversation in the pub or around the Sunday barbeque - it took my friends years to find out that I am an atheist. It would never occur to my religious friends to try and convert me because they know that it's a.) pointless and b.) rude.


*There is one exception - the Christian Democrats led by the Reverend Fred Nile, who have two members on the crossbenches of the New South Wales Upper House. They usually get about 2% of the vote, if that, and sneak in on preferences.

[Viti]

Moving to Secular Lifestyle

[Tenek]

Originally posted by Straight Hate
I cannot speak for Canada at large, but many areas are quite secular. Southern Manitoba has a very prominent bible belt, which diminishes the further north you go out of 'Mennonite country'. Winnipeg is mix-and-match. Many Christians, but also very liberal. We've had an openly gay mayor win two terms and I don't think I've ever heard anyone attack him for it. Even the local 'real issues' talk show guy Charles Adler seems to like him.


Anyway, I digress... Long story short, there are religious fruitcakes everywhere.

Well then there were the fundies telling people to vote for Peter Kaufmann the first time around solely to avoid a gay mayor... and then there's the Campus Crusade for Christ (I always wonder how they get along with the Muslim Students' Association...), Springs of Living Water Church, which my mother spent much time opposing on abortion issues however long back. The fundies are here, they're just not *that* noticeable. (Did see a church sign saying "Evolutionists believe in mathematical miracles" awhile back...)

[AtheistSalmon]

The wilderness. The wilderness is full of inhabitants that are biological, evolutionists, and believe in life -- not the afterlife. I feel the wilderness on a daily basis and stress the importance of the respect for the wilderness. Imagine this: the world without countries, political boundaries, and fences for humans would be bliss, yet humans would not be the top of the food chain, albeit <. For nature knows not of the human world and fears not that of natural selection, for it needs no management.

A secular country? Whatever, a peaceful place so it looks from space and a greater look reveals the human race...

Well the Internet is a secular demision if you choose that path, thus adopt your country.

Fifth glasse of shiraz and felling ggggggggggooooooooooooddddddddd! :D

[SiliconWolf]

CIA World Factbook (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ez.html#People) lists the atheist population of the Czech Republic at 39.8%. I don't know exactly how high that is compared to other countries, because the CIA lists different categories for each country based on the questions in that country's census. The Czech figure is probably also part of the legacy of communism.

Northern Europe, Australia/New Zealand, and to a somewhat lesser extent Canada are the first places I typically think of when I think "apathetic toward religion". This page on weekly attendance @ adherents.com (http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_43.html) seems to back up my impressions rather nicely.

My dad has somehow gotten the impression that church attendance is phenomenally low in South America. I have no idea where he got that information, but I consider it questionable. According to the above adherents.com link, those countries are similarly religious to the USA.

Michael Fornal, the easy answer for you might be to look at the Northern or Western US. We don't have nearly as much of the fundy domination that seems to exist in the South. And since you're from Texas, the North counts as another country, right? ;)

[Proxima Centauri]

Originally posted by A. Uiet bhor
Here in the UK, we have weak attendance but our form of belief, one we made for ourselves is so moderate, and it’s little more than ceremony. I quite like it, I’m irreligious normally, but, although I live for the day when belief in god is re-classified as a mental illness I admit I would miss the local church bell, and gathering in the grounds. Its familiar and cosy, unlike those scary people in the bible belt I keep hearing about, I’d hate to have them on my doorstep.
In places like Birmingham in the UK its ok to disbelieve. I can't speak for the smaller towns and villages. You can come and live somewhere like here in Birmingham or somewhere like Coventry. Coventry Cathedral is good architecturally but you don't have to believe in it.

[Deadend]

According to this article (http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=50957) us cloggies ure also quite secular.But first place now belongs to those who claim no religious affiliation, 53% in 1996. A study cited in the report estimates that by 2010 two-thirds of the Dutch population between the ages of 21 and 70 will have no religious affiliation. By then, 13% of the population will be Catholic, 9% Protestant, 6% Muslim and 4% other. Hurrah for us :)

[Abdomens]

Originally posted by Julian
In Denmark you are automatically counted as a Lutheran at the moment of birth. Once you start paying taxes you automatically pay a church tax but it is optional!!!! Only 2% of the population attend church or express a strong belief in god. I am sure that christians, when counting up their followers, count all of Denmark's population. Religion was never an issue for me until I moved here. In Denmark religion is never really talked about and it can automatically be assumed that anyone you meet on the street is a non-believer. Unfortunately, the Danes show a high degree of belief in superstition and pseudo-science. Ya just can't win...

Julian

PS. The government pay the priests. Which is lucky for them since the churches are near empty every Sunday. I went to hear a sermon (for non-religious reasons) in a church once and there were only about 5 people in attendance and they were all over 80 years old. This was in a large church in Copenhagen, a city of 1.5 million inhabitants.

This is all true, but for some small things. Danes doesn't believe in pseudoscience any more than other countries. And you are not automatically a christian by birth, your parents has to report you in. It is true that most do, but number of those who do is falling.

Denmark is a very good country to be an atheist in.:D

[SwoleMan]

Sweden is, as far as I know, being counted as one of the most secular countries in the world. Of course many Swedes are baptized when very small and because of that are members of the Protestant church, but this is mostly done because of tradition. And of those who are christians, I do not think there are many who believes the Bible is to be taken literally; creationism is not very well known here.

Another secular country: China.

[schu]

Originally posted by SiliconWolf
.................My dad has somehow gotten the impression that church attendance is phenomenally low in South America. I have no idea where he got that information, but I consider it questionable. According to the above adherents.com link, those countries are similarly religious to the USA..................

Well, there are places in SA that are very secular. Uruguay is about 50% agnostic. The COC sends missionaries there and the people in the urban areas can't be bothered with them. The pathetic souls seekers have to go pick on the poor Indian populations in the boondocks.

[McGargoyle]

Originally posted by Andreas83
I do not think there are many who believes the Bible is to be taken literally; creationism is not very well known here.

Ah, if that's your criterion, then I think it doesn't matter where in Europe you're looking.

[Koiyotnik]

Originally posted by Tenek
Well then there were the fundies telling people to vote for Peter Kaufmann the first time around solely to avoid a gay mayor... and then there's the Campus Crusade for Christ (I always wonder how they get along with the Muslim Students' Association...), Springs of Living Water Church, which my mother spent much time opposing on abortion issues however long back. The fundies are here, they're just not *that* noticeable. (Did see a church sign saying "Evolutionists believe in mathematical miracles" awhile back...)

I was (and still am) a bit disappointed that I have yet to be accosted by prosthetelyzers, on-campus or off-campus.

While the Windsor Star, the city's newspaper, does have it's nice nut mix of religiously-fueled letters-to-the-editor, I find that religion in this area is not really a big deal. Let's just say I can make Jesus jokes without fearing violent reprecussion.

[Arctic]

I would lean towards New Zealand or Australia. They're both western, English speaking countries, with the same levels of freedom and so forth (if not more) that the US has. New Zealand's current PM is an Atheist, and our opposition leader here in Australia is an agnostic (he's got a strong lead in the polls as well, and it looks like he's probably going to be the next PM).

Most people here are apathetic to religion, as evidenced by about 70,000 people putting their religion as 'Jedi Knight on our last national census (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2218456.stm). The current PM and a few of his front bencher's are practising Christians, and tend to occasionally pay homage to their 'faith', but most people don't really take much notice of it. In general, as BigBlue2 said, most people just don't seem to care about religion, or if they do, seem to avoid pushing their beliefs on others.

We do still have Christian RE classes in public primary schools, although they're having serious trouble finding enough people to actually teach the things, so thankfully this seems to be dying off. But yeah, in general it seems to be a lot better here than it is over in the US at the moment.

[mongrel]

Originally posted by Arctic
...and our opposition leader here in Australia is an agnostic (he's got a strong lead in the polls as well, and it looks like he's probably going to be the next PM).

Really? Do you have a source? I haven't heard anything regarding Latham's religion, or lack of. It certainly would be far from being out of character for the ALP to have agnostic/atheist leaders.

I'll be doing my bit to ensure he becomes the next PM regardless, though. If it's true, then this is just an added bonus, IMO.

Most people here are apathetic to religion, as evidenced by about 70,000 people putting their religion as 'Jedi Knight on our last national census (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2218456.stm). The current PM and a few of his front bencher's are practising Christians, and tend to occasionally pay homage to their 'faith', but most people don't really take much notice of it. In general, as BigBlue2 said, most people just don't seem to care about religion, or if they do, seem to avoid pushing their beliefs on others.

I agree. As I've said here on a few occasions in the past, many of those who identify with a certain xian denomination seem to do so only because it's the family tradition. Most don't practise their religion at all.

We do still have Christian RE classes in public primary schools, although they're having serious trouble finding enough people to actually teach the things, so thankfully this seems to be dying off.

I didn't have to go through that when I was in primary school(up to 1982). But I think Tassie's constitution would prohibit such things in public schools. What state/territory are you in? What does the constitution of that state/territory say regarding religion?[/B][/QUOTE]

[Yangja Isuko]

holland is definitely one of the most secular nations on earth. even though 'official' figures list religious people numbering almost 60%, the actual truth lies closer to 20%. Most people quite honestly don't believe in any god or religion, but still fill out 'catholic' or 'protestant' on surveys, simply out of cultural habit. whatever religion your parents were born into is your religion, ad infinitum.

i've had quite a large number of conversations about religion with people and the vast majority of them agree that it's absurd or just plain 'evil'. the christians that you do find here are either not interested in 'spreading the good word', or are afraid to do so :), they aren't taken very seriously amongst these parts.

plus we understand and speak english fairly well, generally speaking, and we have legal drugs and prostitutes plus a host of other things you wouldn't find anywhere else. and no, you don't have to wear clogs.

[JaeIsGod]

Originally posted by Yangja Isuko
holland is definitely one of the most secular nations on earth. even though 'official' figures list religious people numbering almost 60%, the actual truth lies closer to 20%. Most people quite honestly don't believe in any god or religion, but still fill out 'catholic' or 'protestant' on surveys, simply out of cultural habit. whatever religion your parents were born into is your religion, ad infinitum.

i've had quite a large number of conversations about religion with people and the vast majority of them agree that it's absurd or just plain 'evil'. the christians that you do find here are either not interested in 'spreading the good word', or are afraid to do so :), they aren't taken very seriously amongst these parts.

plus we understand and speak english fairly well, generally speaking, and we have legal drugs and prostitutes plus a host of other things you wouldn't find anywhere else. and no, you don't have to wear clogs.

Yeah, the number of people who follow religion is really low over here, and the number of non-religious theists isn't much higher. Alot of people are still inlisted with a church, out of traditional reasons or because they are too lazy to unsuscribe, but very few people actually still go to church ( except with christmas :P ). I asked around a bit in my current class (about 40 kids) and I only found 3 fundies and a handful of liberal theists. The rest was either atheist or couldn't care less about religions :D

Oh, but don't go live in the small villages in the east, cause fundies still rule there :(

[Arctic]

Originally posted by mongrel
Really? Do you have a source? I haven't heard anything regarding Latham's religion, or lack of. It certainly would be far from being out of character for the ALP to have agnostic/atheist leaders.

There was a rather long profile of him in The Age a week or two ago, unfortunately it was in the good weekend magazine which isn't put online as far as I know. Anyhow, included in the article there was a section on Latham's religious beliefs in which it mentioned that he was apparently greatly interested in Jesus Christ as a historical figure, and was a declared agnostic when it came to religion. Further to that, about a month ago in the side column on The Age politics page, there was a little segment on Latham attending a prayer breakfast that seemed to imply that he was in fact an atheist. It featured a quote from a labour party staffer apparently trying to dance around the fact, claiming that he was in fact agnostic. . The Age seems to charge for it's online archives, so unless you've got a subscription or one of the Tasmanian libraries carries back issues, I don't think there's much chance of getting hold of the articles unfortunately. :(

Apparently he's also got stuck into the Catholic Church in parliament, and also called some coalition front bencher's like Abbot "Conservative Christians with a bible in their top drawer and a (insert porn mag here) in the bottom drawer". I think they put the Hansard records online, so you might be able to get hold of those.

I'll be doing my bit to ensure he becomes the next PM regardless, though. If it's true, then this is just an added bonus, IMO.

Yeah definitely, it's about time Howard was sent on his way. I'm living in a safe Labour seat, but I will be nagging friends to vote for him.

I agree. As I've said here on a few occasions in the past, many of those who identify with a certain xian denomination seem to do so only because it's the family tradition. Most don't practise their religion at all.

It's interesting to say the least, I always refer to it as 'cultural Christianity'. We do have a significant amount of people who do put down 'no religion' on the census, but in reality I think it's a lot bigger than most people imagine.

I didn't have to go through that when I was in primary school(up to 1982). But I think Tassie's constitution would prohibit such things in public schools. What state/territory are you in? What does the constitution of that state/territory say regarding religion?

It might be a state thing, although I would have thought that the freedom of religion clause in the (Australian) constitution would have made RE classes in state schools illegal. I'm actually a Victorian, and interestingly enough a search of the latest constitution act for the words 'religion', 'church' & 'god' turns up absolutely nothing. I don't have time to read all 166 pages right now, but I'll have a closer look later. When I was at the local state primary school (only about six or seven years ago) there were still RE classes run by volunteers from the local Baptist church. There was one Hindu who left the room for them, but in reality they were pretty much mandatory.

Thankfully the woman who took them looked and sounded like Pauline Hanson, so I spent most of the time, along with a friend of mine, doing (rather good, if I do say so myself) Hanson impersonations until we eventually sent the poor woman insane; "How would you like it if you were Pauline Hanson's children?, What has Pauline ever done to you!?" :D

[mongrel]

Originally posted by Arctic
The Age seems to charge for it's online archives, so unless you've got a subscription or one of the Tasmanian libraries carries back issues, I don't think there's much chance of getting hold of the articles unfortunately. :(

Thanks for that info- I'll have to check out the State Library tomorrow to see if they have back issues of The Age- I know they have back issues of the local newspaper(The Mercury), so maybe...

Apparently he's also got stuck into the Catholic Church in parliament, and also called some coalition front bencher's like Abbot "Conservative Christians with a bible in their top drawer and a (insert porn mag here) in the bottom drawer". I think they put the Hansard records online, so you might be able to get hold of those.

Some hansards are online- I know that much, but I have no idea whether they all are. I'll have a search around, and see what turns up.

Actually, comments like that only add to his "yobbo" image, but in all honesty, I don't really see that as an inherently bad thing. It can mean that he speaks his mind more than many pollies, and doesn't necessarily pussyfoot around issues(although he seems to have tip-toed around the old-growth logging debate here in Tassie last week).

Yeah definitely, it's about time Howard was sent on his way. I'm living in a safe Labour seat, but I will be nagging friends to vote for him.

Me too- I don't think there's any chance of Duncan Kerr(although because I actually don't like him at all, I call him Wayne Kerr...;)) being beaten any time soon in my electorate.

It might be a state thing, although I would have thought that the freedom of religion clause in the (Australian) constitution would have made RE classes in state schools illegal. I'm actually a Victorian, and interestingly enough a search of the latest constitution act for the words 'religion', 'church' & 'god' turns up absolutely nothing.

I think you could be right about the federal constitution overiding state constitutions, but I'm not totally sure on this. The Australian constitution(here is the relevent chapter on religion, part 116 (http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/general/constitution/chapter5.htm)) predates Tasmania's current one(which was enacted in 1933- Tasmania's constitution- see part V for the references to religion (http://www.thelaw.tas.gov.au/fullview/94++1934+GS46@EN+2001010900)), which would make me wonder why the state government needed to include it at all.

I may have been wrong, though, in thinking that Tassie's constitution could prohibit RE in public schools. Reading it again now, it doesn't seem to prohibit that at all, although the "freedom of conscience" line would seem to me to discourage such.

I don't have time to read all 166 pages right now, but I'll have a closer look later. When I was at the local state primary school (only about six or seven years ago) there were still RE classes run by volunteers from the local Baptist church. There was one Hindu who left the room for them, but in reality they were pretty much mandatory.

Thankfully the woman who took them looked and sounded like Pauline Hanson, so I spent most of the time, along with a friend of mine, doing (rather good, if I do say so myself) Hanson impersonations until we eventually sent the poor woman insane; "How would you like it if you were Pauline Hanson's children?, What has Pauline ever done to you!?" :D

LOL!:D

[Arctic]

Originally posted by mongrel
[B]Thanks for that info- I'll have to check out the State Library tomorrow to see if they have back issues of The Age- I know they have back issues of the local newspaper(The Mercury), so maybe...

Some hansards are online- I know that much, but I have no idea whether they all are. I'll have a search around, and see what turns up.

Actually, comments like that only add to his "yobbo" image, but in all honesty, I don't really see that as an inherently bad thing. It can mean that he speaks his mind more than many pollies, and doesn't necessarily pussyfoot around issues(although he seems to have tip-toed around the old-growth logging debate here in Tassie last week).

You're probably right, whilst it might turn off some, it's likely that it will also gain him some votes, as a lot of people who are generally cynical about politics tend to 'enjoy' it when someone different comes onto the scene. Regardless, he has put a stop to the colourful language, so I doubt we'll see him get up and describe Howard as an arse-licker anytime in the near future. :D

I think that he really had to tiptoe around that to be honest, committing to either side would have meant the loss a large support block. On one hand there's the Greens preferences & the environmentalist vote, and on the other side he needs to consider the loggers & the union movement. I though he handled it quite well myself, he managed to support the loggers, yet still get Bob Brown's endorsement.

Me too- I don't think there's any chance of Duncan Kerr(although because I actually don't like him at all, I call him Wayne Kerr...;)) being beaten any time soon in my electorate.

Haha, I've got the deputy leader & shadow health minister Jenny Macklin. I can't envisage her getting ousted, the Liberals seem to struggle around here.

I think you could be right about the federal constitution overiding state constitutions, but I'm not totally sure on this. The Australian constitution(here is the relevent chapter on religion, part 116 (http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/general/constitution/chapter5.htm)) predates Tasmania's current one(which was enacted in 1933- Tasmania's constitution- see part V for the references to religion (http://www.thelaw.tas.gov.au/fullview/94++1934+GS46@EN+2001010900)), which would make me wonder why the state government needed to include it at all.

Reading over the 'religion clause' in the federal constitution, it seems to me that the key issue is whether state schools are considered part of the 'commonwealth' or not. The wording of it gives the impression that it applies only to federal institutions and organizations. A layer might be of use come to think of it. The anti-discrimination act might be relevant here as well, I'm not sure how that's worded though. I think I might see if I can get a copy of that, as it may also have something to say about 'government' endorsement or establishment of a particular religion.

I may have been wrong, though, in thinking that Tassie's constitution could prohibit RE in public schools. Reading it again now, it doesn't seem to prohibit that at all, although the "freedom of conscience" line would seem to me to discourage such.

Same with the Victorian one, it almost seems to be a bit of a grey area, unless the word 'commonwealth in the federal constitution somehow reffers to or covers state schools.

[Born Free]

Well Scotland is mainly secular as the rest of the UK, the only prolific religion we really do have is Celtic vs Rangers. :rolleyes:

[reprise]

Our High Court has never interpreted our Constitution in the same way that the SCOTUS has interpreted the US Constitution. Education is a matter for the states in Australia and there is no Constitutional barrier to the states making their own laws in respect of religion (although most state Constitutions are silent on the matter) except where doing so would conflict with Federal legislation (this is how WA was able to outlaw Scientology for a time). The Commonwealth refers to the Federal Parliament and the powers (and limitations on those powers) of the Federal Parliament are enumerated in the Constitution.

The relationship between Australian states and the Commonwealth (ie the Federal Parliament) is quite different from that of the US states and Congress. For starters, all Australian states retain their own relationship to the Crown which is independent of the Commonwealth relationship to the Crown. If Australia became a republic tomorrow, each state would still be free to maintain or sever its relationship with the Crown.

[Ftoomsch]

Well, my copy of The State of Religion Atlas lists China, N. Korea, Cuba and Albania as the countries with the highest percentage (50%) of the population as having no religious allegiance. Next are Uruguay and the Netherlands in the 30% bracket. Countries with the most avowed atheists include N. Korea and Albania at "over 15%" and China, the Netherlands and Sweden at "over 10%".

I might also suggest that although there might be a lot of ostensible believers out there in, for example, the UK, there seem to be far fewer of the fervent, pushy, parochial variety than there are here.

I'd like to urge you to also consider that within the U.S. there are a lot of different religious demographic areas as well, and it might be simpler to move to (for example) New York or San Francisco or much of Massachussetts. I work in Manhattan and sometimes visit the Bible Belt for work or other reasons, and let me tell you it is very much like going to another country. ;) In Manhattan you see people occasionally shouting on street corners that the end is nigh, but they simply blend in with the rest of the diverse, noisy, complex and wonderful "tossed salad" of the city.

[AtheistSalmon]

Argentina, nominally Roman Catholic 92% (less than 20% practicing), 4% other (maybe secular?). Facts taken from the CIA Factbook.

[mike all together]

Wow! Thank you all for the overwelming response. I certainly wasn't expecting all this when I was sarcasticly venting my frustrations with living around all these rednecks on a daily basis. :D

Buut.. NZ and Australia aren't lookin' too bad. ;)


Originally posted by SiliconWolf

Michael Fornal, the easy answer for you might be to look at the Northern or Western US. We don't have nearly as much of the fundy domination that seems to exist in the South. And since you're from Texas, the North counts as another country, right? ;)


Hah, your last sentence is so true. It's pretty pitiful. Teaching the lovely rednecks at my work that Texas isn't 'the only state allowed to fly their flag the same height as the US flag' was pretty damn enjoyable, albeit incredibly hard to convince them. :)

[Cutter]

mongrel: Having done volunteer work/work for the dole in a couple of public primary schools recently, I can tell you that here in Victoria RE is mandatory in public PS's but only if there is someone available to run the classes. And it is not compulsory for students to attend if their parents don't want them to.

[User]

Japan is 55% straight up Atheist last time I heard.

All of the communist/former communist countries are mostly atheistic. The communists really did kill god.

The Scandinavian countries are filled with non-practicing Lutherans.

[Phouchg]

Originally posted by Straight Hate
I cannot speak for Canada at large, but many areas are quite secular. Southern Manitoba has a very prominent bible belt, which diminishes the further north you go out of 'Mennonite country'. Winnipeg is mix-and-match. Many Christians, but also very liberal. We've had an openly gay mayor win two terms and I don't think I've ever heard anyone attack him for it. Even the local 'real issues' talk show guy Charles Adler seems to like him.


Anyway, I digress... Long story short, there are religious fruitcakes everywhere.

It seems that in Canada, the further west you go, the less religion you should encounter as a rule. There was an article about a year or so ago on the Globe and Mail's web site regarding religious affiliations of Canadians; according to it, 16% of Canadians are non-religious, and that figure varies widely by province. Only 2% of residents of Newfoundland and Labrador and only 6% of Québeckers are nonreligious. But 23% of Albertans, 35% of British Columbians and 37% of Yukon residents are nonreligious.

If you're interested in lists of numbers, then here (http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/highlight/Religion/Index.cfm?Lang=E) is a site by Statistics Canada where you can find religion affiliation data guaranteed not to get you invited to any parties. ;) ("I don't care how many Jehovah's Witnesses live in Rimouski!")

[Longrider]

I've been lurking here for a while - so hello. This is my first comment, so here goes...

The UK is ostensibly a Christian country - more specifically, Protestant Christian. Our monarch is not only head of state, but also "Defender of the Faith". That faith, since the time of James II being the exclusively Anglican faith (prior to that, it depended on which monarch was on the throne). Having said that, the practise is somewhat different. The Anglican church is in decline - a series of internal crises from female clergy to gay bishops and gay marriages have caused it serious rifts that it can at best only paper over. Perhaps the biggest threat though is indifference - congregations are declining due largely to the church's irrelevance in peoples' daily lives. Most of us (me included) were christened into the Anglican church and went to Sunday school. By the time we reach our teens, most of us can find better things to be doing with our time. By the time we start working, we spend what leisure we have at the local DIY store rather than at the church...;)

In all the time I worked for other people, I rarely (if ever) had people discuss their faith with me - and people are not in danger of losing their jobs because they don't believe.

I spend a lot of time in France as I have a second home there and that is a different case again. The state is fervently secular following the revolution. Napoleon Bonaparte allowed the church back but under his terms and it is subservient to the state. Yet, while a secular state, it is predominantly a catholic country. The more time I spend there though, the more like the UK it feels in this area - people don't push their faith on others and, it seems to me, while catholic, it is through tradition rather than active belief.

Despite being a secular country, there are little reminders of Catholicism. Each town or village will have roadside signs advising the places and times when masses will be heard and, from time, to time, the occasional roadside shrine. Not to mention all those holidays on saints days .:D

[Claudia]

While there is still quite a lot nominal Catholics here, I would class france as very secular because religion here is considered as something private which does not interfer with your relations with people. With the people I know which are devoult Catholics (I know of no integrists), my lack of religion has never been an issue.
And as for the limits on abortion or things like that... yes, abortion "on convenience" is limited to first term. Beside that, minors doenot need to get parental authorization to have contracetion, or to get an abortion> So to use a single criterion is not necessarily significant.

[Biggus]

Originally posted by Cutter
mongrel: Having done volunteer work/work for the dole in a couple of public primary schools recently, I can tell you that here in Victoria RE is mandatory in public PS's but only if there is someone available to run the classes. And it is not compulsory for students to attend if their parents don't want them to.

Us Aussies are taking this way off topic, but anyway....

I'm doing B.Teach at Uni of Tasmania, but I'm a Victorian, and I'll be returning there to teach Primary next year. So far I haven't encountered much in the way of religious education here. I shall investigate and report back next time I'm on placements. I'm very surprised that RE is mandatory in Vic primary schools. I wonder what context they are in, whether they are more or less proselytising sessions, or whether they examine the spectrum of religious belief.

Have you got any input on this, Cutter?

On another note, I should post a topic soon on whether I should do my internship at my old catholic primary school in Melbourne next year.

[echoes]

Originally posted by AlphaandOmega
Spain have laws that greatly restrict Abortion. In addition, Spain has a near 100% Roman Catholic population. Most of their people DO go to church. I would say the US is far more secular then Spain and a few other European Nation. I doubt the US is highly religious for we have some of the most Liberal abortion laws in the world if not the most. The three EU Nation that ban abortion for personal reasons are Spain, Portugal, and Ireland. Although these are probably the least secular nations in Europe not including Vatican City.

Most Spaniards do not go to church; a higher percentage of Americans (http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_46.html) go than Spaniards (http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_45.html). Yes, Spain's abortion laws suck:

"In Cyprus, Israel, Poland, Portugal, Spain and Switzerland, abortion laws are still very restrictive, allowing abortion only in cases of rape or foetal impairment, or to protect a woman's physical or mental health."

( http://www.ippf.org/regions/europe/choices/v28n2/legislation.htm )

However religious fundamentalism is taken much more seriously in the USA than in Spain.

You also have to remember that 30 years ago, Spain was still under a repressive Catholic dictatorship. Plenty of Spaniards alive today grew up under Franco- according to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sp.html the median age in 2002 was about 39- meaning birth in ~1963. Spain has liberalized a tremendous amount since then, and that is despite having a large amount of the population having grown up under a very conservative regime, so as time goes on liberalization can be expected to proceed more rapidly. On the other hand, the US has been a democracy for awhile, and so has attained a sort of political equilibrium and can't be expected to liberalize as quickly.

[Silent Acorns]

Originally posted by Phouchg
But 23% of Albertans ... are nonreligious.
Unfortunately, the other 77% all seem to be fundies! Seriously though, Alberta has one of the most educated workforces in North America (a key indicator of non-belief), but as soon as you leave Edmonton or Calgary (where almost all the "educated" classes live) it's a giant bible belt (by Canadian standards at least).

[Cutter]

Originally posted by Biggus
I wonder what context they are in, whether they are more or less proselytising sessions, or whether they examine the spectrum of religious belief.

Have you got any input on this, Cutter?Sorry, haven't a clue. I never asked because I wasn't interested.

[SiliconWolf]

I just saw a cool quote on this Lonely Planet (http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/europe/netherlands/) page that's relevant to this thread (emphasis mine):

Netherlands...

Religion: 52% Christian (Roman Catholic and Protestant), 5.3% Muslim. The number of former churches that these days house art galleries is the most obvious sign of today's attitude to religion and art. Fully 40% of the Dutch say they have no religious affiliation.

[Lankiveil]

Originally posted by Arctic
Haha, I've got the deputy leader & shadow health minister Jenny Macklin. I can't envisage her getting ousted, the Liberals seem to struggle around here.

I've got Teresa Gambaro. Never heard of her? That's because she's a do-nothing Liberal backbencher. Luckily, she's only holding on by 0.9% in this seat, so with any luck we'll be able to depose her. I spent a great deal of energy trying to convince my (center-right-leaning) girlfriend to vote Labor this time around, until I found out she lives across the electoral boundary in Wayne Swan's seat. Oh well.

[catalyst]

Originally posted by Lankiveil
I've got Teresa Gambaro. Never heard of her? That's because she's a do-nothing Liberal backbencher. Luckily, she's only holding on by 0.9% in this seat, so with any luck we'll be able to depose her. I spent a great deal of energy trying to convince my (center-right-leaning) girlfriend to vote Labor this time around, until I found out she lives across the electoral boundary in Wayne Swan's seat. Oh well.

This sort of discussion is probably better suited to PD, so if you wish to follow it, please start a thread in our politcal forum.

Thank you.

Catalyst
Moderator

[Arctic]

Originally posted by Biggus
I wonder what context they are in, whether they are more or less proselytising sessions, or whether they examine the spectrum of religious belief.

Have you got any input on this, Cutter?

Well, I'm not Cutter, but I'll jump in if that's ok with you.

I took the time to speak to a few family members still working in the Victorian primary system, and they confirmed that many schools do indeed still have RE classes in their curriculum, and unfortunately they appear to be Christian conversion tools rather than comparative religion classes. From what I was told, and drawing on my experiences at my local state school about 7 years back, they're taken by volunteers from a local Christian church or organization, if the school can actually find someone to take them. When I had them, they gave zero time to other religious faiths, and essentially seemed to hammer into us to feel that god loves us, we should go to church to get to know god and so on. In other words, mind control, inserting religious beliefs in Children before they've developed the ability to critically examine the stuff being taught to them.

When I had them, technically they weren't mandatory, but in practice they were. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, one Hindu excused himself from the classes, but otherwise you pretty much stayed, after all, it was a chance to have a chat to your friends, and the classes were more relaxed and informal than maths and the like. As I thought at the time, hey, why leave when I'll just look different than everybody else? In the end, unless a kid's parents asked for them to be excused, you pretty much stayed in the room. Interestingly, schools with a high amount of Islamic students apparently sometimes offer 'classes in the Koran' if they can get a volunteer from the local mosque.

Apparently the practice is dying out due to a lack of volunteers to actually take the classes, but regardless, they're nothing more than indoctrination sessions, and in my opinion are totally inappropriate. The sooner they are scrapped, the better. Regardless, Victoria doesn't seem overly affected by Christianity, Fred Nile thankfully hasn't managed to get the Christian Democrats up and running down here.

Lankiveil - good luck removing your good for nothing Liberal back-bencher :D. The way Latham's going at the moment, you might get your wishes. Here's hoping that he can keep it up, we may just see off Howard sooner than I had thought a couple of months ago with Crean at the helm.

[Biggus]

Thanks Arctic.

Even in the catholic system, we were educated about other religions, and did a lot of research on them.

My theory is that they knew a large number of us were going to become agnostics or athiests, and the more they taught us about how equally silly other religions were, the less likely we were to convert to said religions.

[catalyst]

Originally posted by Biggus
Thanks Arctic.

Even in the catholic system, we were educated about other religions, and did a lot of research on them.

My theory is that they knew a large number of us were going to become agnostics or athiests, and the more they taught us about how equally silly other religions were, the less likely we were to convert to said religions.

That is certainly an interesting tactic.

[Brother Daniel]

Originally posted by Silent Acorns
Unfortunately, the other 77% [of Albertans] all seem to be fundies! Seriously though, Alberta has one of the most educated workforces in North America (a key indicator of non-belief), but as soon as you leave Edmonton or Calgary (where almost all the "educated" classes live) it's a giant bible belt (by Canadian standards at least).
B.C. shows a similar pattern. Vancouver and Victoria are very secular, but the "Interior" of B.C. is full of fundies, as is the Fraser valley up-river from Vancouver. Some are relatively harmless, and some are very scary.

Here in Nova Scotia, church attendance is relatively high by Canadian standards. But even here, people mostly keep their religions to themselves. I have even heard devout evangelicals (fundies all, from an IIDB point of view) issue warnings about the dangers of "fundamentalism"!

[Midday]

If you are interested in moving to Aus, try to avoid the smaller country towns, which can tend to be a bit fundyified (at least by Aussie standards compared to America it's NOTHING). I spent years being bullied by my Angligan RE teacher, a born again alcaholic with a steel plate in his head, because my mother was terrified that I and the rest of the my family would be vilified by the rest of the town if she pulled me out. Eventually she pulled my little brother out after the guy started throwing things around the class once he got right into his sermons. She was right, we've been outsiders ever since.

As to Latham, much better than Horward. Damn it why can't I vote?

-Midday

[Cutter]

I can't believe I missed this the first time round:
Well Scotland is mainly secular as the rest of the UK, the only prolific religion we really do have is Celtic vs Rangers. :rolleyes:And we all know those Rangers heretics will burn in hell!!!

:D

[Brian63]

As a general rule for netiquette, old threads like this should not be resurrected. If anyone wishes to discuss this topic, please start a new thread instead. This thread is locked.

Brian
PA&SA Mod