Keeping distance

[Darth Dane]

Would you be surprised if God doesn´t prove God, if you throughout your life are keeping God at a distance?

Would God listen to you, and not come closer to you, because you kept shutting the door?

Would God keep a distance, because you "decided" that God isn´t there out of resepect of us?


Should the campfire move towards you, if you don't wanna feel it´s warmth?

[Matrioshka_Brain]

How does one repell a god?

Who "decided" that gods don't exist? How can one decide something does'nt exist that lacks a coherent definition, comparison, and presumably, detectability?

Perhaps "deciding" that gods don't exist attracts them to oneself? Are you skilled in god psychology?

[Duck!]

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Would you be surprised if God doesn´t prove God, if you throughout your life are keeping God at a distance?
I'm not keeping God at a distance. I've examined various ideas and various evidences and come to the conclusion that he doesn't exist. I'm not more keeping God at a distance than you're keeping Santa Clause at a distance.

Would God listen to you, and not come closer to you, because you kept shutting the door?
What door am I shutting? Am I shutting the door to God by not believing he exists in the same way that you've "shut the door to the Tooth Fairy" by not believing in him?

Would God keep a distance, because you "decided" that God isn´t there out of resepect of us?
I don't know. Would he? Why would he? Why wouldn't he? It all depends on what God is or what God's like. Me and you can't agree on even the existence of God therefore we can't really argue on whether or not he'd keep distance of me, can we?

Should the campfire move towards you, if you don't wanna feel it´s warmth?
You're mistaken. I'd love to feel the warmth of a campfire. That sounds lovely. The thing is though, I can't see or smell or hear a campfire anywhere. Where is it?


Duck!

[Darth Dane]

How does one repell a god?

Sunblock?

Asking?


Who "decided" that gods don't exist? How can one decide something does'nt exist that lacks a coherent definition, comparison, and presumably, detectability?

Some non-believers say that there is only the universe, no God, based on the evidence at hand, and they decide.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Darth Dane

Would you be surprised if God doesn´t prove God, if you throughout your life are keeping God at a distance?

Would God listen to you, and not come closer to you, because you kept shutting the door?

Would God keep a distance, because you "decided" that God isn´t there out of resepect of us?

Should the campfire move towards you, if you don't wanna feel it´s warmth? Do you think it would be possible to maintain your identity if you were too close to God? Just don't stick your hand in the fire! :D

[Darth Dane]

You're mistaken. I'd love to feel the warmth of a campfire. That sounds lovely. The thing is though, I can't see or smell or hear a campfire anywhere. Where is it?

It is inside yourself, I would say in your consciousness.

Do you think it would be possible to maintain your identity if you were too close to God? Just don't stick your hand in the fire!

Yes.

[Matrioshka_Brain]

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Sunblock?

Asking?

Some non-believers say that there is only the universe, no God, based on the evidence at hand, and they decide.

First off, you missed the point: how do you know that "deciding" that gods don't exist keeps them at a distance, so to speak?

Second off - there is only the universe by definition, gods or not (universe, translated means "everything", or "everything that is" -something to that effect); and any non-beliver that says there is no god would likely be basing their opinion on definitions of gods.

The "evidence at hand" does not, and cannot lead someone to say gods don't exist; to do otherwise would be to attempt to prove a negative existential. And the term is poorly defined.

[Darth Dane]

First off, you missed the point: how do you know that "deciding" that gods don't exist keeps them at a distance, so to speak?

I don´t per se.

If there is a God, and the law is "Ask and you shall be given", I extrapolated. Not saying that it IS so, just meddling with the logic.

[Matrioshka_Brain]

Originally posted by Darth Dane
I don´t per se.

If there is a God, and the law is "Ask and you shall be given", I extrapolated. Not saying that it IS so, just meddling with the logic.

But how is it more relevant than "Don't ask and you shall be given," or anything along the lines of "[insert action or state here] and you shall be given?"

[Darth Dane]

But how is it more relevant than "Don't ask and you shall be given," or anything along the lines of "[insert action or state here] and you shall be given

Freedom is central here, many fanatics will try to take your freewill away, like no pre-marriage sex and so on.

Jesus wasn´t trying to enslave people, but set them free.

How will you know if someone wants something from you, except by them asking? So don´t ask doesn´t work, so to speak.

Asking is an extremely easy thing to do.

It´s not ask and you might be given, it´s ask and you will be given.


Just trying to see how the logic will work, if it is true.

How will one know if it is true?

Test it like a scientist?

[Ellis14]

I'm sorry, Darth Dane, I might be misunderstanding you are you saying; are you saying that all we need to do to find God, is to test: to ask?

[Matrioshka_Brain]

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Freedom is central here, many fanatics will try to take your freewill away, like no pre-marriage sex and so on.

Jesus wasn´t trying to enslave people, but set them free.

How will you know if someone wants something from you, except by them asking? So don´t ask doesn´t work, so to speak.

Asking is an extremely easy thing to do.

It´s not ask and you might be given, it´s ask and you will be given.


Just trying to see how the logic will work, if it is true.

How will one know if it is true?

Test it like a scientist?

Well, now that we're talking about Yaweh - if it was so concerned about human freedoms, then why'd it make hell? And why didn't it tell all those missionarilly-challenged folk (Indians, Australian Aborigionees, Africains, Ibo, Japaneese, Inuit, Easter Island, ect)? Dead babies, mentally handicapped, those tricked by the reality it created?

How can someone be free to belive or reject something they don't know about?

And about asking: you do know that most non-belivers here, myself included, were once Yawehists, right? {Edit to add: and I thought Yhwh didn't like being tested. What's the deal here?}

[Darth Dane]

I'm sorry, Darth Dane, I might be misunderstanding you are you saying; are you saying that all we need to do to find God, is to test: to ask?

Yes.

But as I said the campfire isn´t moving, it´s sending out it's light, which reaches farther than the warmth, so you can see it.

So you must walk toward the light, the walking consist of Loving your neighbor as you Love yourself. This is how you test if it is true.

So the asking is not a verbal command as such, even though you can know in a second.

[Ellis14]

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Yes.

But as I said the campfire isn´t moving, it´s sending out it's light, which reaches farther than the warmth, so you can see it.

So you must walk toward the light, the walking consist of Loving your neighbor as you Love yourself. This is how you test if it is true.

So the asking is not a verbal command as such, even though you can know in a second.
I'm sorry again, this doesn't make sense. Are you saying that if I love my neighbour and ask God to reveal himself to me, he will? I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying.

[Darth Dane]

Ellis10. I'm sorry again, this doesn't make sense. Are you saying that if I love my neighbour and ask God to reveal himself to me, he will?

As far as I can see the logic in this, it is that by Loving your neighbor as you Love yourself, God is revealed.


Well, now that we're talking about Yaweh

Did I say we were? Nope :)


How can someone be free to belive or reject something they don't know about?

They can´t.

[Ellis14]

As far as I can see the logic in this, it is that by Loving your neighbor as you Love yourself, God is revealed.
But I was a theist and I loved my neighbour as myself, and although I was convinced that God existed, he never revealed himself. Until one day I realised that the only person that was convincing me that God existed was myself.

Why does God never reveal himself in person; only in ambiguous, confusing, abstract, personal, irrational ways? Perhaps because the belief in God comes from within, and nowhere else.

[Darth Dane]

Why does God never reveal himself in person;

When you Love your neighbor and enemy as yourself, not just in lip but in spirit, God is revealed in you. You can´t see it, but others can.

The Kingdom is inside, and when you come closer to God, the more God will shine through you.

You will be a living testament for God, or the God Christ spoke about.



On the outer I will see Ellis10, but on the inner I will se God.

[haverbob]

Originally posted by Darth Dane
How will you know if someone wants something from you, except by them asking? So don´t ask doesn´t work, so to speak.

Asking is an extremely easy thing to do.

Wouldn't you say that you are giving God some pretty mortalistic attributes here?

It´s not ask and you might be given, it´s ask and you will be given.

Well, that hasn't happened to me. Maybe it can, who knows. How much of what you want do YOU get from your asking? I would be curious. Also, why would you want something different than God wants and therefore ask for it? Does God not know what you want until you ask? Isn't he supposed to know the secrets of your heart as well as the details of what you want? So in effect, every action has a reaction. So if God grants your wish, it therefore consitutes a change in God's plan and causes a new set of reactions that differ from what they would have been, because you asked for it. So doesn't that really say "gee God, I know you have a good plan and all, but do you think you could change it a little for me? I can enhance your plan by enhancing my personal interests?". Or perhaps you can bargain out some sort of "win win" situation or agreement with this timeless entity. Maybe you have some good world cup tickets.

[Darth Dane]

Wouldn't you say that you are giving God some pretty mortalistic attributes here?

Yes

Well, that hasn't happened to me. Maybe it can, who knows. How much of what you want do YOU get from your asking? I would be curious. Also, why would you want something different than God wants and therefore ask for it? Does God not know what you want until you ask? Isn't he supposed to know the secrets of your heart as well as the details of what you want? So in effect, every action has a reaction. So if God grants your wish, it therefore consitutes a change in God's plan and causes a new set of reactions that differ from what they would have been, because you asked for it. So doesn't that really say "gee God, I know you have a good plan and all, but do you think you could change it a little for me? I can enhance your plan by enhancing my personal interests".


Could be that God is improvising as God goes along?
Thus fascilitating our wishes into the play?

[haverbob]

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Could be that God is improvising as God goes along?
Thus fascilitating our wishes into the play? [/B]

I hope you mistook mortalistic with moralistic. Otherwise, I'm not sure it could make sense. Why worship a mortalistic God? Just wait for him to die off and then there's no problem (or come to think of it, no benefit either).

As far as the wishes go, perhaps you are talking about God acting in what is ultimately our best interests, rather than what we wish for. If not, then I would still be curious as to how many things that you have consciously wished for that you have received? All? Alot? A little? None?

[Darth Dane]

As far as the wishes go, perhaps you are talking about God acting in what is ultimately our best interests, rather than what we wish for.

Interesting!

I heard one say that God is morally perfect as opposed to being omnibenevolent. (Just an addition)

[JohannGoodflag]

Darth Dane
Would God listen to you, and not come closer to you, [if] you kept shutting the door?

Would God keep a distance, because you "decided" that God isn't there out of resepect of us?

1. It's hard to say. If he existed, I'd be puzzled why he didn't listen to me while my door was open. As it stands, all he has to do is knock loud enough for me to hear. If he exists, then he hasn't chosen to do so.

2. If he existed, and he respected me, and if he plans to damn me eternally or reward me eternally depending on whether I believe in him, then yes, he would do his best to correct my misunderstanding.

But as I said the campfire isn't moving, it's sending out it's light, which reaches farther than the warmth, so you can see it.

So you must walk toward the light, the walking consist of Loving your neighbor as you Love yourself. This is how you test if it is true.
I've done this, and although I felt good doing it, no supernatural beings revealed their presence, let alone the god of the jewish or arabic scriptures. If this is the only way to know, then I can assure you that he does not exist.

[Boro Nut]

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Should the campfire move towards you, if you don't wanna feel it´s warmth?

Oh, have we dropped the shepherd actively seeking out the lost sheep analogy nowadays? Has Jesus been consulted about this?

Boro Nut

[haverbob]

Originally posted by JohannGoodflag
If this is the only way to know, then I can assure you that he does not exist.

I agree. Can't know God that way.

[haverbob]

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Interesting!

I heard one say that God is morally perfect as opposed to being omnibenevolent. (Just an addition)

Well, I might have said it in this thread or another, but there is no such thing as perfect (according to the way our minds work). I can be a perfect green ball but not "perfect" to someone who prefers red. There will never be perfection because we all have different preferences. "Moral" is a preference that is far from universally agreed upon down to it's finer details. For perfection to be possible, we would have to step out of our preferences first (very hard thing to do). Otherwise, it's impossible to see perfection. We would all see it differently and it would appeal to us in different amounts, depending how this perfection matches our preferences. You might say that perhaps God could change his appearance based on who he is looking at, and be perfect to all. Maybe, but if God has to change himself, then doesn't that make him imperfect from the get go? Why should he change? Have you ever asked the question in this reverse manner? See the self centeredness that we approach this with? God changes, but we don't, not even one iota. Imagine that. To me, it comes more down to what our minds need to do rather than what God needs to do.

[Ellis14]

hi bob,

we know our minds exist though. and whilst it may limit us if we think from our POV, it is the only POV that we can think from!

i don't see how you can get God from any talk of perfection. seems like a lot of big non-sequitors, to be honest...

[Corona688]

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Would you be surprised if God doesn´t prove God, if you throughout your life are keeping God at a distance? Keeping a distance from what? I have never seen any such thing to keep a distance from.Would God listen to you, and not come closer to you, because you kept shutting the door? The door is open. I have not made up my mind. I have in fact, many times before, gone out that door looking for him, and found nothing.Would God keep a distance, because you "decided" that God isn´t there out of resepect of us? I have not decided that god isn't there. I have decided that there is no evidence to believe that he is at this point in time. This does not mean I have shut the door; my beliefs are not set in stone, I merely try to mold them as close to the actual reality as I can. Nor does this mean I never leave my room; I am willing to give him a try, and still do from time to time, but I always come up empty. Oh well. Hope springs eternal, I suppose.

There simply is no evidence at this point. Does this mean god doesn't want me to believe?

[Corona688]

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Yes. Then why haven't I been able to find him? It's not like I am wanting to deny reality here! This stuff is pretty important; if there is a god, I want to know. But no matter how many times I look or where, I have never found anything, Does this god not want me to find him?

[graymouser]

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Would you be surprised if God doesn´t prove God, if you throughout your life are keeping God at a distance?What about when I reached out to God sincerely and he left me with my doubts and insecurities? What the hell kind of God is supposed to do that?

Would God listen to you, and not come closer to you, because you kept shutting the door?I shut the door because I realized that, no matter how much I tried, I couldn't get the guy to come in. I had to conclude that I wasn't dealing with an actual being.

Would God keep a distance, because you "decided" that God isn´t there out of resepect of us?I stopped fooling myself. That's all.

Should the campfire move towards you, if you don't wanna feel it´s warmth? The warmth only comes from you.

If you want to get blood from a stone, and you squeeze it long and hard enough, but the blood will not be from the stone. The "experience" of God is no different.

-Wayne

[Darth Dane]

JohannG 2. If he existed, and he respected me, and if he plans to damn me eternally or reward me eternally depending on whether I believe in him, then yes, he would do his best to correct my misunderstanding.

God should change your understanding?

You shouldn´t change your understanding/perception?

Oh, have we dropped the shepherd actively seeking out the lost sheep analogy nowadays? Has Jesus been consulted about this?

God is not the shepherd, Jesus is.




What about when I reached out to God sincerely and he left me with my doubts and insecurities? What the hell kind of God is supposed to do that?

Dod God give you insecurities or did you?

[graymouser]

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Dod God give you insecurities or did you? The entire time I was a theist, I was plagued by rational insecurities - the blinding, keep-me-up-late-at-night possibility that I might be wrong. I don't think God gave me those insecurities, because I don't think there was a God to give or remove them. It's not even a question for me at this point.

I think, given that I prayed and suffered with the doubts I had, and kept opening the door for God, the lack of any consolation is proof for me that there was no one to come through that door.

Do you really think people giggle with Satanic delight at their deconversions or something? It was a cold, numb realization that I had been wrong. But I think it's better than continuing with a willful self-delusion.

-Wayne

[JohannGoodflag]

Darth Dane
God should change your understanding?

You shouldn´t change your understanding/perception?

God should give me reason for me to change my understanding. Or, it could have just as easily given me reasoning to keep my understanding back when I did believe it existed. I even asked it for help, in the short window when I had stopped being christian but wanted to remain a deist or theist. From lack of help fro God and lack of evidence of any sort, I decided that open-minded atheim was the most logical position. Open-minded I remain, too. However, being open-minded does not entail a guarantee that I will believe what any particular person says.

If God exists, and truly does want me to believe in it, then it will act accordingly, and provide me with compelling evidence. Such would not be an act of coersion. (Anyone who honestly claims otherwise must feel put upon by the brutality of the world imposing evidence of its existence on them all the time.) It would be no more intrinsically harmful than learning that my hometown was about to be hit by a hurricane. The information is vital, but simply learning about it is not damaging.

Given that I have not been provided any such evidence, I must conclude that either God doesn't exist, doesn't care if I believe, or doesn't want me to beleive.