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Peter Kirby
March 22, 2004, 02:07 AM
Duhm in the nineteenth century isolated four blocks of Isaiah and labeled them as "servant songs." They are 42:1-4, 49:1-6, 50:4-9, and 52:13-53:12. Treves points out that that they are not really "songs," nor are they necessarily to be severed from the context, nor should the speaker and the servant be assumed the same in all four. The last passage in particular has inspired a lot of controversy for centuries.

Isaiah 52
13: Behold, my servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.
14: As many were astonished at him -- his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men --
15: so shall he startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which has not been told them they shall see, and that which they have not heard they shall understand.
Isaiah 53
1: Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2: For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
3: He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4: Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.
8: By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
9: And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10: Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
11: he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities.
12: Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

William J. Dumbrell writes: "What follows is a commentary explaining how this return has been achieved, namely through the ministry of the servant who has suffered so extremely, 52:13-53:12. The disfigured servant whose ministry was nonetheless so effective is presented in 52:13-15. Then in 53:1-9 we seem to be confronted by the confession of the Gentile kings of 52:15 who stand astonished at the new Exodus and restoration, followed by a prophetic (vv. 10-11) and a divine (v. 12) assessment of the servant's ministry. What is clear is that it has been the servant's ministry which has made possible this great change involving the return of God's people to his city. The confession of the kings thus bears eloquent testimony to the eschatology of 2:2-4." ([i]Tyndale Bulletin 36 [1985], p. 126)

Richard J. Clifford writes: "Some observations can be made regarding the passage. Elsewhere in Second Isaiah, the nations are onlookers, the chorus rather than the protagonist. Hence, those whose sins are borne are likely the Israelites, not the nations. Secondly, the sins the servant has borne are not only the sinful acts of others but their consequences; Hebrew words for sin can designate both the act and its unhappy consequences. The ancestors have sinned, and the exiles are bearing the consequences. Now, however, Israel is invited back into existence through the new Exodus from Babylon to Zion. Many exiles were unwilling to undertake the journey. But as long as some of the people make the journey, the servant (and those allied with him), Israel comes into existence. 'The many' who did not make the journey exist as Israel once more because of the servant's obedient act. When they see what the servant has done for them, they cry out that he has borne their sins, i.e., taken away the evil consequences of their refusal to go in the new Exodus. It is noteworthy that the servant's reward is life in the holy land (53:11-12; cf. 9:3). As long as the servant does the act, the whole people live again. The above interpretation is tentative, but it does have the merit of staying within OT categories." ("Second Isaiah" in The Anchor Bible Dictionary)

John Scullion writes: "How then is this fourth song to be interpreted? The servant signifies, is a symbol of, Israel in history and captive Israel. Israel will recognize herself in the persecuted, suffering, sick man, just as she had recognized herself in the words of Isaiah of the 8th century: 'A, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, . . . The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even to the head, there is no soundness in it, but bruises and sores and bleeding wounds; they are not pressed out, or bound up, or softened with oil.' (Isa. 1:4-6)." (Isaiah 40-66, p. 122)

Walter Brueggemann writes: "First, there is no doubt that the poem is to be understood in the context of the Isaiah tradition. Insofar as the servant is Israel--a common assumption of Jewish interpretation--we see that the theme of humiliation and exaltation serves the Isaiah rendering of Israel, for Israel in this literature is exactly the humiliated (exiled) people who by the powerful intervention of Yahweh is about to become the exalted (restored) people of Zion. Thus the drama is the drama of Israel and more specifically of Jerusalem, the characteristic subject of this poetry." (Isaiah 40-66, p. 143)

Walter Brueggemann continues: "Second, although it is clear that this poetry does not in any first instance have Jesus on its horizon, it is equally clear that the church, from the outset, has found this poetry a poignant and generative way to consider Jesus, wherein humiliation equals crucifixion and exaltation equals resurrection and ascension." (Isaiah 40-66, p. 143)

John Scullion writes: "The servant is regularly identified with Israel outside the songs: 41:8-10; 43:10; 44:1-2; 44:21; 45:4; 48:20; 49:7; in 54:17 the 'servants of the Lord' are God's loyal Israelites; in 42:19 the servant is Israel in exile. There are in all some fourteen instances where the servant is Israel. In the songs, however, the term servant describes an individual: 'my servant' 42:1; 49:3, 6; 'his servant 49:5. The commentary on or elaboration of the third song refers to 'his servant,' 50:10, while the 'Yahweh statements' of the fourth song speak of 'my servant' 52:13; 53:11. The name Israel occurs but once in the songs, 49:3. But if the servant songs belong to chaps. 40-55 and are the work of the prophet then there is no option but to understand the servant as Israel. The servant of the songs speaks or is spoken of as an individual: he is 'thou,' 42:8-16; he has a right hand, 41:13; he has eyes and ears but cannot see or hear, 42:19; he is formed by Yahweh from the womb, 44:1-2, as he is in the second song, 49:2. The servant-prophet speaks as one with his people, 49:1-6; 50:4-9, yet stands over against the people; the people, Israel, is the Israel of history, empirical Israel, faithless Israel, yet at the same time the true Israel which is to be God's instrument to redeem Israel; the servant-people is Israel with a mission to Israel; and the prophet is conscious that he is one with the people that has been hewn from Abraham, 51:1-2. When Israel suffers, she suffers for Israel and for the vindication of Israel by Yahweh (see comments on individual songs). The salvation of Israel by Yahweh the creator and redeemer is the theme of the whole of chaps. 40-55; Israel the people is the centre of the prophet's pronouncements." (Isaiah 40-66, pp. 135-136)

R. N. Whybray writes: "for our transgressions; for our iniquities: these phrases are usually intepreted as implying vicarious suffering: the people sinned, buth the Servant was punished. But this is made improbable by the choice of the word translated for. If the author had intended to imply such a transference of guilt, he would almost certainly have used the particle be, which denotes an exchange. The fact that he chose instead the particle min indicates that he regarded the Servant's ill treatment as the result of the people's sin but not as a substitute for the punishment which they had deserved: though more intense than theirs; though intense was fundamentally due to the same causes. They speak of his identification with them in their suffering: there is nothing to suggest that he suffered in their place. They--that is, the whole exilic community in whose name they make their confession--had previously thought of him quite difficulty undergone unusually intense misfortune, with the implication (though smitten by God perhaps means no more than 'terrible smitten') that he had brought divine punishment on himself through his own wickedness--possibly as a false prophet. See further on he bore the sin of many in verse 12." (Isaiah 40-66, p. 175)

Whybray continues: "In the second half of the verse the speakers assert that the prophet's suffering has not been in vain. In saying that they have been made . . . whole and healed, they are summarizing Deutero-Isaiah's own essential message, that Yahweh has forgiven them and is on the point of rescuing and restoring them. They affirm their faith in this message, and recognize that without his readiness to suffer in the course of his prophetic duty, the prophetic word, which was the means used by Yahweh to achieve his purpose (55:11), would not have been pronounced." (Isaiah 40-66, pp. 175-176)

R. N. Whybray writes: "and he shall bear their iniquities: this verb (an imperf.) should also be rendered as a past tense. This statement, like he bore the sin of many in verse 12 (see below), is usually interpreted as a statement that the Servant's suffering was vicarious and atoning. But there is no evidence for this. The phrase 'bear iniquities' (sabal awonot) occurs in only one other passage in the OT: 'Our fathers sinned, and are no more; and we bear their iniquities' (Lam. 5:7). Here it is clear that although the speakers complain that their punishment is the consequence of their dead ancestors' sins, they can hardly claim to be vicariously atoning for them. So also here the Servant, though innocent, has suffered punishment which is the consequence of the sins of others, and which should rightly have fallen only on his guilty compatriots (compare verses 2-6); but he has not suffered in their stead. The meaning of the phrase is 'yet he suffered punishment which only they deserved'." (Isaiah 40-66, p. 181)

R. N. Whybray writes: "It may be noted here that several phrases in this chapter--he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows (verse 4); and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all (verse 6); and he shall bear their iniquities (verse 11); and he bore the sin of many (verse 12)--have been discussed by some commentators as if they were identical in meaning with another phrase, nasa awon, 'bear guilt' or 'bear punishment', which does not occur in this chapter. But even if we can assume that the phrases are virtually interchangeable, nasa awon does not in fact refer to vicarious punishment or suffering. In the four passages from the laws (Exod. 28:38; Lev. 10:17; 16:22; Num. 18:1) which have been cited as proof of this meaning, the subject of the verb 'bear' is not involved in suffering at all. Rather these passages express a belief that a certain ritual actions neutralize or take away a punishment which would otherwise fall on the people. They have nothing in common with the idea of one person's suffering instead of another. Further, in Ezek. 4:4-6, where the prophet Ezekiel 'bears the punishment' of the house of Israel, his suffering is in no sense a vicarious punishment: on the contrary, it is a sign of the punishment which the people are themselves called upon to bear. The roles of Deutero-Isaiah and Ezekiel are here similar in the sense that both share the suffering of the people rather than suffering in their stead." (Isaiah 40-66, p. 183)

Donald Juel writes: "The messianic reading of Isaiah 53 in the Targum does not support the thesis that there existed a pre-Christian concept of a suffering Messiah whose career was understood in light of the chapter. In the Targum, virtually every element of suffering is eliminated from the career of the Servant-Messiah. The resulting portrait, though purchased at the expense of the obvious meaning of the text, accords in every respect with the portrait of the Messiah elsewhere in the Targum and in other Jewish literature. It is thus difficult to argue, as Jeremias does, that the striking interpretation by the targumist represents an effort to conceal an earlier tradition of a suffering Messiah that Christians found too useful. Were that the case, the image of a suffering Messiah would represent a complete anomaly in the Targum as a whole. The painstaking redoing of the passage by the targumist required by the initial identification of the servant as the Messiah need not obscure the usefulness of the passage to the targumist even apart from anti-Christian polemics. The initial description of the servant as exalted and glorified is perhaps sufficient cause for the messianic 'translation.'" (Messianic Exegesis, pp. 126-127)

Marco Treves writes of the servant in chapter fifty-three, "we must look for a saintly man murderd not long before 164," based on a dating of Second Isaiah to the Maccabaean age, following Robert H. Kennett (The Composition of the Book of Isaiah in the light of History and Archaeology). Treves stipulates: "He was the high priest Onias, as father Barsotti and Dr. Lassalle have recognized. The story of Onias is told in 2 Macc. iii 1-iv 38. He was a pious and saintly person. When Seleucus Philopator, having to pay a heavy indemnity to the Romans, had tried to confiscate the deposits of the Jerusalem widows and orphans, Onias had succeeded in placating the king without delivering these funds. But he was unjustly accused of conspiring against the government and in 174, on the accession of Antiochus Epiphanes, was supplanted by his unscrupulous brother Jason, who introduced into the city Greek customs contrary to the Torah. Jason, in turn, was supplanted by one Menelaus, who did not hesitate to appropriate some of the gold vessels of the Temple and sell them for profit or give them away as bribes. On being rebuked by Onias, he urged the Greek governor Andronicus to arrest him. Andronicus imprisoned and slew Onias. Menelaus' robberies were followed by riots, massacres and a general apostasy." ("Isaiah LIII" in Veta Testamentum 24)

So what do you think about the servant of Isaiah 53: is it Israel, is it the prophet of Deutero-Isaiah, is it some other Jewish figure, or is it a messianic oracle, or what?

best,
Peter Kirby

redzrx
March 22, 2004, 08:32 AM
I have read on Jewish sites in regards to this ISa 53 and they say that it is in regards to Israel( son and servant).I checked a couple of other sites(jewish) and they seem to all be in agreement on this.


They also say that its not a Prophesy!! but the way other nations viewed Israel.

I'm just curious if the only people making different claims are non-jews.

Also Peter.. does not the passage in question seem like past or present text.. or is that the way things were written back then? To me it seems like a commentary for the times it was written.

Mario

spin
March 22, 2004, 11:32 AM
As I am interested in Onias III, I thought I'd give Isa 53 a reread as I'd not come across a connection between it and Onias before, so I read with interest, only to find that, although I could see why one might think of Onias, there was nothing I could see that tangibly made a link between them. Does your source provide anything more tangible or was it the seduction of the idea?


spin

Peter Kirby
March 22, 2004, 05:14 PM
For spin, I have scanned the article by Treves:

http://www.christianorigins.com/treves.pdf

This file will be removed from the server in about a week (don't link to it).

best,
Peter Kirby

rlogan
March 23, 2004, 02:34 AM
Peter, the Tyndale office for back issues was closed, but I see you got that '85 article.

The BBR 13.1 is considered the current issue, which is why you could not find out how to back order it.

I wrote WTJ about back issues and they have not returned my note yet. But that one was the three articles on 8th century Background, which I think would be valuable to the question.

- rlogan

Peter Kirby
March 23, 2004, 03:52 AM
I forgot that I had already purchased that '85 issue to get Colin Hemer's article on Acts.

There is a bibliography of Isaiah here:

Isaiah Bibliography -- Dr. Victor H. Matthews (http://courses.smsu.edu/vhm970f/bib/ISAIAH-02.html)

These look promising for greater detail:

Clines, D.J.A. I, He, We, and They: A Literary Approach to Isaiah 53. JSOTSup 1; Sheffield: University of Sheffield, 1976.

Laato, A., The Servant of YHWH and Cyrus. Stockholm: Almqvist & Wiksell, 1992.

Lindblom, J., The Servant Songs in Deutero-Isaiah. Lund: Lund University Press, 1951.

Mettinger, T.N.D. A Farewell to the Servant Songs: A Critical Examination of an Exegetical Axiom. Lund: Gleerup, 1983.

North, C.R. The Suffering Servant in Deutero-Isaiah. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1948.

Rowley, H.H. The Servant of the Lord and Other Essays on the Old Testament. Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1965.

Wilcox, P. and D. Paton-Williams, "The Servant Songs in Deutero-Isaiah," JSOT 42 (1988), 79-102.

A contribution from anyone is welcome, whether or not they look up anything in a library or buy a book. There is plenty of data and opinion in the original post.

Does anyone here see the passage as being oriented to the future or having messianic import?

best,
Peter Kirby

rlogan
March 23, 2004, 08:47 PM
Peter, I ordered the WTJ series.

After having looked at the commentary of the writers, I went back through the text looking for any "negations" of the interpretation that it is Israel being spoken of.

There is nothing in the piece that contradicts this reading. I suppose it is anachronistic to think of a nation as "she" as opposed to "he"?

This is where the culture of the time is important. That would be an instant negation.

-rlogan

Peter Kirby
March 24, 2004, 01:18 AM
If you download the PDF file, you can read a list from Treves of "servant of the Lord" language found in the Hebrew Bible. For example, any Jew could be given that appelation, as could priests and kings.

There would be nothing unusual in referring to Israel in masculine terms. There are other locations in Isaiah in which the "servant" is undoubtedly the nation.

Isaiah 41
8 But thou, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, my friend
9 -- thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called from the extremities thereof, and to whom I said, Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee and not rejected thee,

Isaiah 44
1 And now hear, Jacob, my servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen:
2 thus saith Jehovah, that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who helpeth thee, Fear not, Jacob, my servant, and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 45
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have called thee by thy name; I surnamed thee, though thou didst not know me;

Isaiah 48
20 Go ye forth from Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing; declare, cause this to be heard, utter it to the end of the earth; say ye, Jehovah hath redeemed his servant Jacob.

best,
Peter Kirby

rlogan
March 24, 2004, 03:10 AM
We are banking on several things in the onias theory of Treves.

The most tenuous link I think is the "dying for our sins" business. If we trust his history here, Onias was more the victim of political intrigue for standing in the way of plundering the Temple.

I am less able to evaluate the other assertions - but Onias would have to be one ugly duckling indeed to match the description in Isaiah. If it was that legendary, it would not have to be by personal observation as Treves offers.

But it is more than that. He is despised. I don't know that Treves has established this, unless it is an extension of the ugliness and disease.

I think in this circmustance we also look for a negation in this way: even if some aspects of Onias can be "shoe-horned" in, are there aspects of Onias that could not have been overlooked had a psalmist been writing of him.

The Spin meister might weigh in on this.

spin
March 24, 2004, 01:47 PM
I've been looking over Marco Treves' proposal that the servant figure in 52:13-53:12 is Onias III and as I see it at the moment I don't think he is convincing.

First he notices an important fact, that most of the text is in the past tense, which he takes to separate ch 53 from the other servant material, though I don't think this is either necessary or probable. This is not to say that the fact is unimportant. Being in the past makes it finished business. One doesn't write a prophesy talking about the past. What we have is a description of something that has happened in the past of the writer's period. I take that as a termination of all the servant material. The expectations of the earlier servant poems seem to come to an end in this one. The central figure is now referred to in the past, with the possible exception of 52:13 & 15a, but how these relate to the rest is difficult to determine, though i don't think we can with Treves simple relocate it and say that it refers to the son of Onias III.

Another apparently intersting point he makes is that in 53:2, "He grew up before him", the "he" being the servant and the "him" being God, the servant is before God, which is tantamount to saying that the servant is a high priest, as he serves before God, ie in the temple in the holy of holies where God's presence is. However, though this is interesting, the Qumran Isaiah scroll doesn't have "before him" but "before us" which is functionally acceptable in the context and eliminates the source of Treves' logic.

From here we start to have very little which is positive to support the claim. I don't think we can rule out his position, but I think there is unsufficient evidence to endorse it.

I'm less sure now than when I started that the servant in the other poems is Israel. In 49:3 God says "You are my servant, Israel...", yet in v.5 he says that the figure was formed "in the womb to be his (God's) servant, to bring Jacob back to him..." and in v.6 the servant was "to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the survivors of Israel. The figure is a type of mediator between God and Israel. This still is relevant to Onias III, who as high priest mediated between God and Israel.

So, though I'm less inclined to see the servant as Israel, this in no way allows for the servant to be Jesus. This figure, as indicated by 53 ch, is in the writer's past. His role is to restore Israel and its tribes, not to turn from Israel.

I might change my mind tomorrow, or at least have something more to say on the subject.


spin

rlogan
March 25, 2004, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Peter Kirby
There are other locations in Isaiah in which the "servant" is undoubtedly the nation.


(spin)
So, though I'm less inclined to see the servant as Israel, this in no way allows for the servant to be Jesus.



Seems that the subject changes. That is, I don't think we have "a" servant throughout these songs.

Why would there be such studious avoidance of an unequivocal collective connotation in this last song?


I would have to agree that using 53 as a Jesus prophesy is out of the question. Past tense seems to rule that out.

But boy, did they ever "mine" this for the Jesus material anyway. I just realized that 53:9 explains Joseph of Arimathaea - the rich man's grave.

spin
March 25, 2004, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by rlogan
Seems that the subject changes. That is, I don't think we have "a" servant throughout these songs.

Why would there be such studious avoidance of an unequivocal collective connotation in this last song?

Ch 49 is also to me clearly not Israel, while ch 44:1-2 and 45:4 make the servant Israel. I would connect ch 49 with 52:13-53:12.

But I don't understand your "unequivocal collective connotation". Is it that you see the "he" which is used throughout the passage as collective or are you intermingling the "he" and the "we"?


spin

rlogan
March 25, 2004, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by spin


But I don't understand your "unequivocal collective connotation". Is it that you see the "he" which is used throughout the passage as collective or are you intermingling the "he" and the "we"?


spin [/B]

What I mean is this, Spin: There are authors arguing for Isaiah 53 as a song with Israel as the "he".

The most basic argument is that other songs are about Israel and so this one must be too.

If that is the case, then why is there not one place one can point to where Israel is without question "he"? (A preceding line with Israel in it would clinch that, for example)

There is no place where the "he" refers to a collection of people unambiguosly. We speak of a nation's people as "her people", for example. "Her rivers". "Her lying murdering president"

The way it is written makes it difficult to completely rule out "he" being Israel. But on the other hand we can't put forth a single example where "he" is undoubtedly referring to nation.

spin
March 25, 2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by rlogan
What I mean is this, Spin: There are authors arguing for Isaiah 53 as a song with Israel as the "he".

The most basic argument is that other songs are about Israel and so this one must be too.

If that is the case, then why is there not one place one can point to where Israel is without question "he"? (A preceding line with Israel in it would clinch that, for example)

There is no place where the "he" refers to a collection of people unambiguosly. We speak of a nation's people as "her people", for example. "Her rivers". "Her lying murdering president"

The way it is written makes it difficult to completely rule out "he" being Israel. But on the other hand we can't put forth a single example where "he" is undoubtedly referring to nation.

I think if you try to identify the we/us in 53, you'll have to rule out that he is Israel. He can't be us... "and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all." (6c)

The servant in 49 is not Israel either, as I pointed out above with the references.


spin

rlogan
March 25, 2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by spin
I think if you try to identify the we/us in 53, you'll have to rule out that he is Israel. He can't be us... "and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all." (6c)

The servant in 49 is not Israel either, as I pointed out above with the references.


spin

Quite right.

duh. I had a lobotomy last week.

redzrx
March 26, 2004, 09:51 AM
Original that is.. As jews(jewish sites) will say that it applies to Israel(and or its people)./

The jews imply that the christian changed the he/we/them translation to fit their agenda.


Check out www.Jewsforjudaism.com

Mario

spin
March 26, 2004, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by redzrx
Original that is.. As jews(jewish sites) will say that it applies to Israel(and or its people)./

The jews imply that the christian changed the he/we/them translation to fit their agenda.


Check out www.Jewsforjudaism.com

Mario

The JPS translation for 53:5 starts "But he was wounded because of our transgressions . . ." which reflects the Hebrew. I have pointed out that my reading does not favour xian interpretation, which simply takes little notice of what the original says. The servant's task in ch 53 as it is in ch 49 is to do something to bring people back to the Lord and ch 49 clearly identifies those people as Jacob/Israel. The "we" in ch 53 should be the prophet and his co-nationals. The only candidate who has credibly been put forward is Onias III. He at least fulfils the starting criteria.


spin

redzrx
March 26, 2004, 09:14 PM
I believe the "we" you mention is actually the gentile nations which caused the torment to Israel.


Mario

spin
March 26, 2004, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by redzrx
I believe the "we" you mention is actually the gentile nations which caused the torment to Israel.

You may believe it, but it is not based on the text, so it would appear to merely be apologetic.

Whose message is it in 53:1? Can you really find a connection with 52:15a? How? Does the "they" become "we" in 53? Does the sudden "my people" in 53:8 refer to some specific nation other than Israel? Is the speaker of 53:1 & 6 a gentile who believes in the Lord?? Why should the speaker, if gentile, believe that he "was stricken by God"?

I think the only logical conclusion is that the speaker was Jewish.


spin

redzrx
March 27, 2004, 11:30 PM
Ok .. I may be a little rusty at this.. but

ISa 52 13-15 is basically god talking thru the prophet(Servant being Israel).

ISa 53 1-3 is the gentile nations(Representative there of) view,disbelief and wonderment(if thats a word) of Israels redemption and final vindication.

Also if you look at ISa 49 7 the him is Israel. The jews tended in thier writings it seems to use the word "him or he" as Israel especially when mentioning how other nations view them.

Balls in your court.

Mario

spin
March 28, 2004, 01:14 AM
Ok .. I may be a little rusty at this.. but

But you should attempt to deal with what was posted to you.

ISa 52 13-15 is basically god talking thru the prophet(Servant being Israel).

ISa 53 1-3 is the gentile nations(Representative there of) view,disbelief and wonderment(if thats a word) of Israels redemption and final vindication.

Yes, this is the standard view. . . which is not derivable from the text itself.

Also if you look at ISa 49 7 the him is Israel. The jews tended in thier writings it seems to use the word "him or he" as Israel especially when mentioning how other nations view them.

You might have been able to assert that if there wasn't a verse 6 in which the servant is quite clearly not what you would like it to be.

Balls in your court.

Not yet.


spin

redzrx
March 28, 2004, 12:44 PM
You may believe it, but it is not based on the text, so it would appear to merely be apologetic.

Whose message is it in 53:1? Can you really find a connection with 52:15a? How? Does the "they" become "we" in 53? Does the sudden "my people" in 53:8 refer to some specific nation other than Israel? Is the speaker of 53:1 & 6 a gentile who believes in the Lord?? Why should the speaker, if gentile, believe that he "was stricken by God"?

I think the only logical conclusion is that the speaker was Jewish.


spin


Ok.. Lets go back a step.

53:1 is the gentile nation(representative/View) speaking by looking at the question at the begining(who hath believed our report?) .. the view at the time of from other nations were that the jews were lower than animals there fore smitten from God. As ISa continues it shows the gentile nations amazement at what they believed the jewish people/Israel were and what they actually are in the eyes of God and what they suffered.

Now the connection from 52 15 is God speaking thru the Prophet as if God was talking (again this a jewish prespective which cannot be dismissed).

Now I don't quite under stand your view.. Please point form if possible.

waiting for your reply

Mario

spin
March 28, 2004, 01:45 PM
Ok.. Lets go back a step.

53:1 is the gentile nation(representative/View) speaking by looking at the question at the begining(who hath believed our report?) .. the view at the time of from other nations were that the jews were lower than animals there fore smitten from God. As ISa continues it shows the gentile nations amazement at what they believed the jewish people/Israel were and what they actually are in the eyes of God and what they suffered.

Now the connection from 52 15 is God speaking thru the Prophet as if God was talking (again this a jewish prespective which cannot be dismissed).

Why not?

Can you think of any examples in the prophetic literature of where you have an unintroduced goy speaking and accepting YHWH, as in 53:1? And why is it "our" news/message?

After some information about the servant we/us come back into the text at 53:4. He took our infirmities. Are the nations already proselytes according to this theory? Why did "we" consider him stricken by Elohim, again accepting the rightness of Elohim. We are left with implausible statements made supposedly by goyim whose introduction is noever made in the text, so it is merely the wishful thinking of the apologist. What you are supporting is apparently only apologetics, ie eisogesis. It certainly doesn't come from the text, ie exogesis.

It is simpler to read the text as you would normally: where God is not speaking it is probably the prophet. This also makes perfect sense and the conclusions, regarding the exemplary Jew who suffers for his people, are supported by ch 49. As already mentioned.

And yet again, you have not responded to what was posted to you. You have merely restated what you have basically said adding a little more literary back-up.


spin

redzrx
March 28, 2004, 02:29 PM
I am not trying to avoid your questions.. Please give me your view on the passage in question.. point form is fine.

Let me look at it, then let me respond.

I will agree I am looking at it from the jewish prespective even though I'm not jewish..



Mario

spin
March 28, 2004, 03:10 PM
I am not trying to avoid your questions.. Please give me your view on the passage in question.. point form is fine.

Let me look at it, then let me respond.

I will agree I am looking at it from the jewish prespective even though I'm not jewish..

I've already stated views in my responses to you. I have pointed you to the text, so that you can read why I say what I have said.

You are not giving the Jewish perspective, but the modern apologetic post-Pharisaic view, which is easily available on the web and which I already know and disagree with as not based on the text.


spin

(Non stai dando il prospettivo ebraico, ma il quadro doppo-farisaico apologettico contemporaneo, che sia facilmente disponibile sulla rete e che gia' conosco e di cui ho scontato per non essere fondato sul testo.)

redzrx
March 28, 2004, 06:44 PM
I've already stated views in my responses to you. I have pointed you to the text, so that you can read why I say what I have said.

You are not giving the Jewish perspective, but the modern apologetic post-Pharisaic view, which is easily available on the web and which I already know and disagree with as not based on the text.


spin

(Non stai dando il prospettivo ebraico, ma il quadro doppo-farisaico apologettico contemporaneo, che sia facilmente disponibile sulla rete e che gia' conosco e di cui ho scontato per non essere fondato sul testo.)


Ok I'll bite .. point me to your sourse if on the web and let me read and analyze then maybe we will be on the same plane.. rather than playing post pong..

Thanx..
Mario

spin
March 28, 2004, 09:16 PM
Ok I'll bite .. point me to your sourse if on the web and let me read and analyze then maybe we will be on the same plane.. rather than playing post pong..

The position I have stated is my own.

If you want to find other comments on the material try going to Google and using "isaiah 53 suffering servant" and you may eventually find what you want. But you've already supplied a sufficient link for the Jewish perspective, so you don't need to look. You've found what you want.

What you need to do is 1) demonstrate your position with close reference to the text and 2) refute the contrary comments posed tp you if they are based on close reference to the text.


spin

redzrx
March 28, 2004, 10:01 PM
[QUOTE=spin]The position I have stated is my own.

If you want to find other comments on the material try going to Google and using "isaiah 53 suffering servant" and you may eventually find what you want. But you've already supplied a sufficient link for the Jewish perspective, so you don't need to look. You've found what you want.

What you need to do is 1) demonstrate your position with close reference to the text and 2) refute the contrary comments posed tp you if they are based on close reference to the text.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

First off spin I'm not religious in anyway. Ok now the chapters before and after 53 are of the suffering servant(Israel). If we agree on that. So logic would mean 53 is.

The NRSV,The New Jerusalem Bible and the Oxford study bible all point to ISRAEL(people) as the servant in ISa 53.(these are christian sourses)

If there is another alternative which is your view you must use a sourse other than KJV as past and present text and context is sometimes changed or skewed in the KJ. I tend to believe the jews wrote it and understand it as such and have always had this view as the servant being Israel.

Now I realize we don't see eye to eye or will on this issue, I tend to lean towards the jewish prespective because it makes the most sense!!

Sometimes reading to much into a text can lead away from what the text actually means or was meant to mean.

Christian sourses are the ones that changed the text .. Not the jews.. Think about it.

Thanx for the debate but we are not going to agree on this issue..so if no one else has any input to add we should let it go.

Mario

spin
March 28, 2004, 10:38 PM
The position I have stated is my own.

If you want to find other comments on the material try going to Google and using "isaiah 53 suffering servant" and you may eventually find what you want. But you've already supplied a sufficient link for the Jewish perspective, so you don't need to look. You've found what you want.

What you need to do is 1) demonstrate your position with close reference to the text and 2) refute the contrary comments posed tp you if they are based on close reference to the text.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

First off spin I'm not religious in anyway. Ok now the chapters before and after 53 are of the suffering servant(Israel). If we agree on that. So logic would mean 53 is.

53 is the last example of a reference to a servant.

The NRSV,The New Jerusalem Bible and the Oxford study bible all point to ISRAEL(people) as the servant in ISa 53.(these are christian sourses)

People are free to have opinions. What evidence do the provide you that "point to ISRAEL(people) as the servant in ISa 53"?

If there is another alternative which is your view you must use a sourse other than KJV as past and present text and context is sometimes changed or skewed in the KJ. I tend to believe the jews wrote it and understand it as such and have always had this view as the servant being Israel.

Modern Jews are also free to have their opinions on a text. If we want to know what the text says we first must have to deal with it, not opinions on it. I'll happily refer to any translation of the text, or the text itself, in order to deal with its significance, but most translations get the basics correct here.

Now I realize we don't see eye to eye or will on this issue, I tend to lean towards the jewish prespective because it makes the most sense!!

Well, why don't you deal with the text and what it says, rather that repeating your support of the "Jewish perspective" opinion? Perhaps we could make a little progress.

Sometimes reading to much into a text can lead away from what the text actually means or was meant to mean.

If you don't actually read the text,then you can conclude whatever you like.

Christian sourses are the ones that changed the text .. Not the jews.. Think about it.

You think about it and tell me exactly what you think has been changed here in the text.

Thanx for the debate but we are not going to agree on this issue..so if no one else has any input to add we should let it go.

There has been no debate. As I said in my previous post What you need to do is 1) demonstrate your position with close reference to the text and 2) refute the contrary comments posed to you if they are based on close reference to the text. That's what debate is about.


spin

redzrx
March 28, 2004, 11:38 PM
Ok spin.. lets let someone else give there views on the passages and see where it goes..

Mario

Dominus Paradoxum
March 29, 2004, 02:52 AM
Christian interpretations aside, the text does seem to speak of vicarious atonement. Consider:

chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed

Also:

by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous

These excerpts, especially the first one, seem to indicate vicarious atonement if anything does. Even without the "bruised for our transgressions" and "bore our diseases", the first one alone seems proof enough. How can his chastisement make us whole, or we be healed by his stripes, unless there is some serious atonement going on? I wouldn't be suprised if christians first got the very idea of the Atonement by reading this passage. If anyone thinks they can explain them away, I would really like to hear what their alternative explanation is.

rlogan
March 29, 2004, 03:21 AM
Yes - doesn't the cultural significance of sacrifice make this an easy call?

I agree completely that the Christians hijacked this idea, as well as this specific passage.

rlogan
March 30, 2004, 04:44 AM
Peter -

I got those three papers by J. Barton Payne from the Westminister Theological Journal. (On Isaiah 40-66)

It's absolutely baffling. He says Isaiah's 4th and greatest servant song is 52:13-53:12. But not one word of analysis. !?

He spent quite a bit on Isaiah 52, asserting the description of the Assyrian devastation, famine, and subsequent defeat/redemption.

He just mentions the 4th and greatest servant song "followed by pictures of the expanding Gentile church which Jesus would redeem 54:1-3 Luke 22:37, Gal 4:27.

He calls 49-57 the Book of the Gospel Call: "direct appeals to trust in Christ and Yahweh (49:1, 50:10 etc.) assume prominence for the first time. The second servant song (49:1-9a) with which the Book of the Gospel Call opens, correlates closely, moreover, with the Messiah prophesies of the authentic 8th century Isaiah".

Now he does provide a "statistical summary" at the end of the third paper. In that, he has a categoy entitled "Future" [prophesy] with one item indicated for the passages in the OP:

Jesus: 52:13-53:12.

This is no surprise in retrospect. He sees John the Baptist, the Christian Church, and Jesus all over the place.

redzrx
March 30, 2004, 08:55 AM
ISa was apparantly written.. 700 years before JC..

Now thats a prophet.!! (sarcasim)


Mario

Dominus Paradoxum
April 1, 2004, 04:47 PM
*Bump*

Dominus Paradoxum
April 1, 2004, 06:20 PM
So, is no one going to try to explain the "atonement phrases" away?

Dominus Paradoxum
April 2, 2004, 09:08 PM
Anyone?

spin
April 2, 2004, 09:17 PM
Not me. Why?

rlogan
April 3, 2004, 07:14 PM
Not me. Why?

nor me. But I do have another question.

Would speaking in the past tense be a feature of a future prophesy?

redzrx
April 3, 2004, 09:37 PM
nor me. But I do have another question.

Would speaking in the past tense be a feature of a future prophesy?


The problem with apolgists(whether jewish or christian) is that if making a prophesy whether present or future and it did not come true in the lifetime of the prophet speaking they(the apologists) will say it is future prophesy. Now would the prophet ... or anyone predict 700 years in the future? The bible states that if a prophet speaks and it does not come true .. then not to be afraid of that person as he is false (my quote from memory). So with that in mind .. How long untill you prove someone false? Eternity?.

From what I have read(jewish sites) present text was used in the so called virgin birth in ISa but the christians made it future tense to fit there agenda.

So to answer your question (and this is only my opinion) I believe that past tense can be used as a poetic way of predicting the future , sorta like from another prespective. But again I think that if the prophesy is made to a group of people.. directed at the people to look for.(a sign) then it is for that generation of people not a distant millenia away.

Hope that helps..

Need more coffee..

Mario

Oh and in regards to Isa 52 to 54 Its Israel..

don't tell spin..

spin
April 4, 2004, 01:11 PM
nor me. But I do have another question.

Would speaking in the past tense be a feature of a future prophesy?

This was one of the arguments of Treves for his servant being Onias III. And it's not strange that it's the last servant passage in the text. When the servant died, there wasn't too much else to say that wasn't said in 52:13-53:12.


spin

redzrx
April 4, 2004, 01:52 PM
This was one of the arguments of Treves for his servant being Onias III. And it's not strange that it's the last servant passage in the text. When the servant died, there wasn't too much else to say that wasn't said in 52:13-53:12.


spin

The Hebrew Translation (Not the Greek) to english of 53:12

Therefore, I will allot him a portion among the multitudes, and with the mighty he shall share booty, because he has bared his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and he will [continue to] intercede for the transgressors.

http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53d.html

Mario

spin
April 4, 2004, 03:48 PM
The Hebrew Translation (Not the Greek) to english of 53:12

Therefore, I will allot him a portion among the multitudes, and with the mighty he shall share booty, because he has bared his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and he will [continue to] intercede for the transgressors.

53:12 (JPS) Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

And most modern xian translations are directly from the Hebrew as well, and they all have the past tense.



spin

JPS = Jewish Publishing Society

Bernard Muller
April 5, 2004, 01:43 AM
2nd Isaiah was probably written in stages, after the death of Cyrus and before the reconstruction of the temple under Darius, within a 10 years period. It was a period of despair for the Jew who came back, trying to rebuild their nation and Jerusalem, facing hostility from the local Persian authorities and Gentiles, still dominant in Judea.
There are too many human-like characteristics in the suffering servant to consider him as not a man. The author had him to be a "miserable", ugly, deformed, sorry, grieving, despised but righteous Jew. He probably existed then, known to many, but dead by now, likely by execution because of not defending himself on some unjustified offence. Anyway, this one was deemed to suck up the sins of the Jews then in Judea, because of his apparent silent "martyrdom"/"sacrifice".

The message is clear at the end of 'Isaiah': stay Jews, do not worry about your sins (but repentance is required), they will be taken away from you and you'll deserve the future glory of Zion, starting at the next chapter, 54.
This suffering servant could have been used as a sure sign of great things to come and definitively as absorbing the sins of others.

Best regards, Bernard

redzrx
April 5, 2004, 06:08 PM
53:12 (JPS) Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

And most modern xian translations are directly from the Hebrew as well, and they all have the past tense.



spin

JPS = Jewish Publishing Society

Yes it is written in past tense.. that is the one of the ways jews look at prophesy .. example I was given is since it is Apr 5 2004 now the prophesy is read as if the prophet was speaking at the time or just after the prophesy took place. example june 5 2004(if thats when the prohesy happened).

Now spin I say this again this is not my opinion but the jewish interpretation.
Please read some of the jewish sites and at least give them a chance rather than dismiss them as Apologetic.

Mario

spin
April 6, 2004, 01:38 AM
Yes it is written in past tense.. that is the one of the ways jews look at prophesy .. example I was given is since it is Apr 5 2004 now the prophesy is read as if the prophet was speaking at the time or just after the prophesy took place. example june 5 2004(if thats when the prohesy happened).

You missed the comments on the subject of tense in the servant passages.

Now spin I say this again this is not my opinion but the jewish interpretation. Please read some of the jewish sites and at least give them a chance rather than dismiss them as Apologetic.

Mario

Read books if you want scholarship, books that show that they come from responsible publishers commited to scholarly standards. And that's hard enough. The web is no substitute for sound methodology. To use the web you need to know your subject well enough to cut through the crap.

This is probably my last post to you in the subject.


spin

LP675
April 6, 2004, 02:25 AM
William J. Dumbrell writes: … (Tyndale Bulletin 36 [1985], p. 126)


So what do you think about the servant of Isaiah 53: is it Israel, is it the prophet of Deutero-Isaiah, is it some other Jewish figure, or is it a messianic oracle, or what?

best,
Peter Kirby
I am fascinated by this passage, and I am intrigued by Christian answers to this question (which have to grapple with the issue of how to interpret what the NT regards as ‘messianic passages’ in their own context). I asked William Dumbrell what he thought about it, and he seemed to be saying the servant was in the immediate context ‘faithful Israel’, and (I may be misrepresenting him here) the passage in the light of the rest of the bible is messianic. I personally don’t have a problem believing the passage is a straight messianic oracle.

LP

redzrx
April 6, 2004, 06:49 AM
You missed the comments on the subject of tense in the servant passages.



Read books if you want scholarship, books that show that they come from responsible publishers commited to scholarly standards. And that's hard enough. The web is no substitute for sound methodology. To use the web you need to know your subject well enough to cut through the crap.

This is probably my last post to you in the subject.


spin

I agree with the web having a lot of conflicting Ideas.. I:E Crap.

Bible unearthed is my next read..

Thanx for the direction ..

Mario