Testing for Deity.

[Godless Wonder]

Over the last several months, occasionally I'll pick up a penny, or a pebble, or other small object, and hold it in my hand, palm upwards, and think "Ok, God, levitate this penny, just for a second . . . starting ... now! .... ok ... now! .... er, maybe now? "

I just did it again.

After probably a hundred trials carried out over a period of months I have never seen any apparent movement of any of these small objects at all, much less sustained levitation.

Anybody else do ever do stuff like this?

(edit: Hey, "Testing for Deity" might be a pretty cool band name.)

[Amaleq13]

I was challenged to do this by a Believer. He suggested I pray for little signs like lights dimming, a specific song coming on the radio, etc. I did it for a month feeling like an idiot the whole time with no positive results. To give him credit, he didn't try to deny that I had conducted the "experiment" incorrectly or anything like that. He admitted he had no answer but assured me he would continue praying that God would enter my life. He encouraged me to continue the "test".

I had to disappoint him but I thanked him for the prayers. I am the lone atheist in the email list we share and I often wonder if I'm not the most prayed for person on the planet.:)


If I could only get them to send me money each time they pray for me...:D

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Godless Wonder

Over the last several months, occasionally I'll pick up a penny, or a pebble, or other small object, and hold it in my hand, palm upwards, and think "Ok, God, levitate this penny, just for a second . . . starting ... now! .... ok ... now! .... er, maybe now? "

I just did it again.

After probably a hundred trials carried out over a period of months I have never seen any apparent movement of any of these small objects at all, much less sustained levitation.

Anybody else do ever do stuff like this?

(edit: Hey, "Testing for Deity" might be a pretty cool band name.) This would be akin to setting up graven images and practicing idolatry by the way. Because God is alive and well and living in the spirit, and by worshipping him in the physical sense, then you've missed the whole point. :)

[zaphod pog]

This might sound a bit nuts but after I left the church and abandoned my faith I did a few experiments to see if I had pissed off any gods.

While working on my roof I challenged god to toss me off and just break a leg or something. Also, that spring I made it a point to sit on my front porch during a few lively thunderstorms and invite god to hurl a lightning bolt my way. He didn't even get close. By my estimates he only got within a mile or so.

So I figgered that if there were a god somewhere it wasn't too pissed off by my wandering out of the sheep pen to become an agnostic/atheist.

[Godless Wonder]

Originally posted by Iacchus
This would be akin to setting up graven images and practicing idolatry by the way. Because God is alive and well and living in the spirit, and by worshipping him in the physical sense, then you've missed the whole point. :) Yeah, right, a pebble is a "graven image." and asking god to lift it is to worship the pebble. Please. It's not as if, in the even that God lifted the pebble, I would then put the pebble up on the mantle and bow down before it. The Christian God, unlike you, should know my thoughts and know damn well my intent is not to worship the pebble. Give me a break, you can make a better argument than that, you're not even trying.

Here's a better argument:
Mt 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.


So, I'm to take it that the Christian God is too heartless even to take a second to lift a pebble for a second to save my immortal soul, though I seek Him the only way which will work for me? It appears to say so right in the Bible.

I have yet to see any believer who can levitate a pebble, much less a mountain.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Godless Wonder
Yeah, right, a pebble is a "graven image." and asking god to lift it is to worship the pebble. Please. It's not as if, in the even that God lifted the pebble, I would then put the pebble up on the mantle and bow down before it. The Christian God, unlike you, should know my thoughts and know damn well my intent is not to worship the pebble. Give me a break, you can make a better argument than that, you're not even trying.

So, I'm to take it that the Christian God is too heartless even to take a second to lift a pebble for a second to save my immortal soul, though I seek Him the only way which will work for me? It appears to say so right in the Bible.

I have yet to see any believer who can levitate a pebble, much less a mountain. But you're still looking for proof (i.e., evidence that you're not a Christian), and you're not going to find the answer outside of yourself.

[Godless Wonder]

Originally posted by Iacchus
But you're still looking for proof (i.e., evidence that you're not a Christian), and you're not going to find the answer outside of yourself.

Ah, there it is, the appeal to faith, rearing it's ugly head.

I shouldn't look in the Bible (which is outside of myself)? I find plenty of evidence outside myself that tells me the Bible is wrong wrong wrong and wrong again.

Sorry, but I can't just forget all that, and tell myself that the Bible is true when I know it isn't.

[-X-]

But you're still looking for proof (i.e., evidence that you're not a Christian), and you're not going to find the answer outside of yourself.

that's a "follow your heart" reply...

i won't even get into that...

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Godless Wonder

Ah, there it is, the appeal to faith, rearing it's ugly head.

I shouldn't look in the Bible (which is outside of myself)? I find plenty of evidence outside myself that tells me the Bible is wrong wrong wrong and wrong again.

Sorry, but I can't just forget all that, and tell myself that the Bible is true when I know it isn't. As I have tried to say, God is not looking for us to worship Him externally. :) He wants to make contact with our internal being.

[orpheus last chant]

Yep, have done this. I like the "God, if you're there, strike me with a bolt of lightning right here in my puter chair....."

Here we go again....*blink*.... hmmmm ....nope.

Of course, one could say that the devil prevent him...isn't he much cooler than god? And to test the existance of the devil (since so many unbelievers think that the devil won't bother to do anything for me if he already has my soul):

"Devil, if you exist, materialise a load of cash right now on my keyboard, or I'll pray to god and save my soul..."

Here we go...Dammit! Nothing...

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by orpheus last chant

Yep, have done this. I like the "God, if you're there, strike me with a bolt of lightning right here in my puter chair....."

Here we go again....*blink*.... hmmmm ....nope.

Of course, one could say that the devil prevent him...isn't he much cooler than god? And to test the existance of the devil (since so many unbelievers think that the devil won't bother to do anything for me if he already has my soul):

"Devil, if you exist, materialise a load of cash right now on my keyboard, or I'll pray to god and save my soul..."

Here we go...Dammit! Nothing... Or, you could just let it be and and say, "Hey God, if you exist then I'm sure you'll find a way to let me to know." This is how it worked for me anyway, after I finally got the Jehovah's Witnesses to stop coming to my door. :)

[Randy X]

I once tried to bend a metal bar. I was in 6th grade at the time -- so I prayed to God so that He could give me superhuman strength (gasp!), I know, it sounds strange. Anyways, I prayed to God, no, I really genuinely prayed to God. I then attempted to bend the metal bar. What happened? IT BENT!

However, I then learned that there were several weak points in the metal, allowing me to bend it. Dammit! I tried.:D

Sincerely,

Christ

[Stephen T-B]

I gave god a chance to get in touch with my internal being day after day for years on end because the religious movement I was brought up in taught us to seek God’s guidance every morning, and write it down. I “listened.� I prayed. I meditated, and not a single once did I NOT have to make up the guidance I eventually wrote down.

I’ve suddenly had an impulse to invite god to reveal his existence to me by making a spun coin show either “heads� or “tails’ five times in a row.
.......

Four times it came up “heads.�
The fifth spin it came up “tails.�
I mean. Was that difficult?
(I must say, it did get very close. I was just thinking, after the fourth toss: “Is this it, then? Has god decided at long last, after all these years and now that I’m 61, to show me he really does exist?�
Telling myself that five heads in a row was a fluke would have been a get out, and have invited another, tougher test, which would have invited another even tougher one and so on until eventually I could say - yup, told you so, god doesn’t really exist.
I was not going to go down that road. So just five heads in a row and I would not now be posting this. I would be having to re-evaluate the entire god thing, and perhaps even praying for forgiveness for having been an unbeliever for the last 40 years. Sitting here at my desk in the office, I’d have closed my eyes and said: “God, I give you my life. I ask for nothing , only that I might learn to love you.�
Just FIVE times, Iacchus, and your god didn’t do it.

[Randy X]

One test that I have presented to several theists is the poison test.:D No, seriously, I have had several Christians at my home and I have asked for them to test themselves -- to test their faith. So what I do, is take a bottle and put some harmless ingredients in it that, when mixed, looks pukey and smells pretty vile -- as close to the real thing as possible.

Then I pull out the big one: Mark 16:17-18, where Jesus is supposed to have said that believers will be able to pick up or drink any deadly thing without harm. No Christian did the test, however. They told me that I shouldn't test the Lord. No, I know its not because of that, its because they were too friggin scared to test the power of their faith.:p Oh well, I tried.

Sincerely,

Christ

[Godless Wonder]

Originally posted by Stephen T-B
Just FIVE times, Iacchus, and your god didn’t do it.
I don't think that's a good test. It's perfectly possible you get 5 heads in a row by perfectly natural means, no deity required. You'd get 5 heads in a row in 1 out of 32 trials, just by chance, by my calculations. So if you had 32 people try this, chances are good that one of them would get 5 heads in a row. If you tried your test 100 times, as I have tried my test, you'd be nearly certain to get 5 heads in a row at least once by chance alone.

I choose levitation as a test, because it seems likely that a God with the properties commonly ascribed would be capable of it, and it's very very unlikely to happen by chance. If it did happen, it would be unreasonable to say it happened by chance. Also, it reminds me of the old "Can god create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?" question, which implies that it's a given that God is capable of lifting a small pebble.

Granted I don't attempt my test while I'm driving down a bumpy road, lest I misinterpret an earthly bounce as divine intervention.

[-X-]

more about the big rock theory HERE (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79369&perpage=25&pagenumber=3)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Stephen T-B

I gave god a chance to get in touch with my internal being day after day for years on end because the religious movement I was brought up in taught us to seek God’s guidance every morning, and write it down. I “listened.� I prayed. I meditated, and not a single once did I NOT have to make up the guidance I eventually wrote down.

I’ve suddenly had an impulse to invite god to reveal his existence to me by making a spun coin show either “heads� or “tails’ five times in a row.
.......

Four times it came up “heads.�
The fifth spin it came up “tails.�
I mean. Was that difficult?
(I must say, it did get very close. I was just thinking, after the fourth toss: “Is this it, then? Has god decided at long last, after all these years and now that I’m 61, to show me he really does exist?�
Telling myself that five heads in a row was a fluke would have been a get out, and have invited another, tougher test, which would have invited another even tougher one and so on until eventually I could say - yup, told you so, god doesn’t really exist.
I was not going to go down that road. So just five heads in a row and I would not now be posting this. I would be having to re-evaluate the entire god thing, and perhaps even praying for forgiveness for having been an unbeliever for the last 40 years. Sitting here at my desk in the office, I’d have closed my eyes and said: “God, I give you my life. I ask for nothing , only that I might learn to love you.�
Just FIVE times, Iacchus, and your god didn’t do it. Hey, after I got through with the Jehovah's Witnesses at my door, I said "Hey, if God wants me to suffer an eternity in hell, fine, because there's no way I'm going to accept Him based upon these people's says so. And furthermore, if He wants me to know, He will have to find a way to let me know personally (on a personal level), otherwise I will have nothing to do with it." And I kind of left it at that and shortly thereafter it happened ...

So what I'm trying to say here is if it's going to happen it's going to happen, otherwise don't worry about it. Not that you shouldn't still try and maintain a sense of decency towards other people though ... :)

[Godless Wonder]

There's always the "Homer Simpson test"

Homer: "Dear Lord: The gods have been good to me. For the first time in my life, everything is absolutely perfect just the way it is. So here's the deal:
You freeze everything the way it is, and I won't ask for anything more. If that is OK, please give me absolutely no sign. OK, deal. In gratitude, I present you this offering of cookies and milk. If you want me to eat them for you, give me no sign. "

*looks around*

"Thy will be done."

Munch, munch.

[Stephen T-B]

Iacchus, I’m not worried about it not happening. But I do think that believers should ask themselves why god chooses to reveal himself to person A but not to person B.

Also, when god left my life all those years ago, I didn’t all of a sudden become mean and nasty, but my motives for being pleasant (or as pleasant as I could be at any given moment) became better defined: I realised that the world is made a marginally more pleasant place when people are kind to one another, and I prefer to make it more pleasant than more unpleasant. That’s important to me because this world, as far as I know, is all we get.

[Ojuice5001]

Originally posted by Godless Wonder
[B]I don't think that's a good test. It's perfectly possible you get 5 heads in a row by perfectly natural means, no deity required. You'd get 5 heads in a row in 1 out of 32 trials, just by chance, by my calculations. So if you had 32 people try this, chances are good that one of them would get 5 heads in a row. If you tried your test 100 times, as I have tried my test, you'd be nearly certain to get 5 heads in a row at least once by chance alone.



Well, the case of my beliefs, that kind of test would be appropriate and no other would. The way I see it, divine intervention is either a ubitiquous phenomenon in the world, or it's not worth bothering with. Although I don't believe in miracles (weak disbelief, not strong), there is a tradition in supernaturalism equally important--seeing chance events as being influenced by supernatural powers, while, presumably, any other form of intervention is much less likely. I represent this tradition.

But you are right that a test that has a 1-in-32 chance of being a false positive isn't a good one. But it's still a test that detects what I call "directed chance," while yours doesn't, and so it's a test that could in principle be relevant to non-miracle-working gods. You know, the kind that could consistently be claimed to be ruling over this Earth in the first place.

Now, as for the question of why this kind of test is less often successful than it is. (Whether its success is different from the chance level at all is unknown, since you'd have to have a large and random sample of all such tests that have been peformed. We don't have that, and it's really just the beginning of the requirements for anything resembling scientific proof.) But why does this test come up negative as often as it does, as in Stephen T-B's case? I might answer that, first, the supernatural world is a world, with all the inherent messiness of the natural world. There's not enough coordination to guarantee that a god would be aware of the test, and then successfully manipulate it to come out right in spite of all other factors. And second, if his life were ruled by a god who wants him to be a theist, it's fairly likely that he would have been one already, with before his taking the test. A god might also be neutral or against his becoming a theist.

[Enigma]

Originally posted by Godless Wonder
I don't think that's a good test. It's perfectly possible you get 5 heads in a row by perfectly natural means, no deity required. You'd get 5 heads in a row in 1 out of 32 trials, just by chance, by my calculations. So if you had 32 people try this, chances are good that one of them would get 5 heads in a row. If you tried your test 100 times, as I have tried my test, you'd be nearly certain to get 5 heads in a row at least once by chance alone.

I choose levitation as a test, because it seems likely that a God with the properties commonly ascribed would be capable of it, and it's very very unlikely to happen by chance. If it did happen, it would be unreasonable to say it happened by chance. Also, it reminds me of the old "Can god create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?" question, which implies that it's a given that God is capable of lifting a small pebble.

Granted I don't attempt my test while I'm driving down a bumpy road, lest I misinterpret an earthly bounce as divine intervention.

With the coin flipping, make it interesting, 5 edges in a row :D

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Stephen T-B

Iacchus, I’m not worried about it not happening. But I do think that believers should ask themselves why god chooses to reveal himself to person A but not to person B.

Also, when god left my life all those years ago, I didn’t all of a sudden become mean and nasty, but my motives for being pleasant (or as pleasant as I could be at any given moment) became better defined: I realised that the world is made a marginally more pleasant place when people are kind to one another, and I prefer to make it more pleasant than more unpleasant. That’s important to me because this world, as far as I know, is all we get. What is the purpose of religion anyway, except to teach us how to be decent towards one another? As for what happened to me, there was no other way around it, I was at a point to where I needed some sort of resolution in my life, otherwise I very likely could have killed myself. :)

[dshimel]

Originally posted by Iacchus
What is the purpose of religion anyway, except to teach us how to be decent towards one another? As for what happened to me, there was no other way around it, I

The purpose of religion is to provide unqualified authority to appeal to when you have unsupportable beliefs you want to instill in others.

"Respect your elders?" Why, they don't have any special knowledge that I don't have access too. In fact, based on IQ, I'm a lot smarter than most of them. They're self-interest is not my self-interest. Why should I respect their opinion more than my own?

"Because God will send you to hell if you don't."

"Homosexuality is wrong." Says who? Who does it hurt? What is the problem with 2 people, that just happen to be the same gender, being in love?
"God says it's wrong."

Religion is the untilmate argument ender. The ultimate appeal to unqualified authority. The end-all-beat-all of "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up" arguments.

And it isn't just external arguments with others. It is the great internal justification for not thinking..... Hmmmm... I think homosexuality is gross, but who am I to say it is wrong for oth..... Wait right there. It isn't me, it is God, so I don't have to justify my beleifs because I, as a religious person, have access to special knowledge of "THE TRUTH". I'm right, they're wrong, no thinking required.

[zaphod pog]

Originally posted by Iacchus
What is the purpose of religion anyway, except to teach us how to be decent towards one another?

Ever read the Old Testament? Or how about the way Jesus treated the Samaritans at times? Religion teaches people how to be decent to those who are of the same religion. Sometimes it suggests that we be kind to all.

Religion cannot be stripped down to just one purpose. It's like a multi-purpose tool. It has many uses. IMO religion ultimately became the tool of the state to better control the masses...Mass. Gotta go to Mass. Marx hit it just right. Opiate for the masses.

But this has nothing to do with conducting empirical tests to detect the presence and power of a god. All of which are conducted without any credible results.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

[dshimel]

Originally posted by Iacchus
I was at a point to where I needed some sort of resolution in my life, otherwise I very likely could have killed myself. :)

God exists because you needed an intellectual crutch? Forgive me for not jumping on the snake oil wagon.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by dshimel

God exists because you needed an intellectual crutch? Forgive me for not jumping on the snake oil wagon. So, you say something completely inocuous and this is what you get, huh? ;)

[Biff the unclean]

So what is it about manic depression that causes some people to mistake it for something supernatural?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by zaphod pog

Ever read the Old Testament? Or how about the way Jesus treated the Samaritans at times? Religion teaches people how to be decent to those who are of the same religion. Sometimes it suggests that we be kind to all.

Religion cannot be stripped down to just one purpose. It's like a multi-purpose tool. It has many uses. IMO religion ultimately became the tool of the state to better control the masses...Mass. Gotta go to Mass. Marx hit it just right. Opiate for the masses.

But this has nothing to do with conducting empirical tests to detect the presence and power of a god. All of which are conducted without any credible results.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress. Ultimately it should teach us how to have self-respect (to love God with all thy heart, soul and mind) and, to be decent towards one another (to love thy neighbor as thyself). And if it doesn't teach that, then it doesn't warrant being called a religion. :)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Biff the unclean

So what is it about manic depression that causes some people to mistake it for something supernatural? Been there, done that! :)

[Ellis14]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Ultimately it should teach us how to have self-respect (to love God with all thy heart, soul and mind) and, to be decent towards one another (to love thy neighbor as thyself). And if it doesn't teach that, then it doesn't warrant being called a religion. :)
Self-respect, love, and treating our fellow human beings well are noble purposes Iacchus, this is something we can always agree on. However that is by no means a pre-requisite to being called a religion, and not all religions have this moral code, and even the ones that do are not really adhered to.

Which leads us to rejecting religion because there is no need for it. We don't need religion in order to respect ourselves and our fellow humans.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Ellis10

Self-respect, love, and treating our fellow human beings well are noble purposes Iacchus, this is something we can always agree on. However that is by no means a pre-requisite to being called a religion, and not all religions have this moral code, and even the ones that do are not really adhered to.

Which leads us to rejecting religion because there is no need for it. We don't need religion in order to respect ourselves and our fellow humans. I don't necessarily disagree with you here, in fact I don't even go to church. However, it is nice to know where we came from don't you think? :)

[Ellis14]

Originally posted by Iacchus
I don't necessarily disagree with you here, in fact I don't even go to church. However, it is nice to know where we came from don't you think? :)
Do you mean religion teaches us where we came from? Lol, because you know we are just going to disagree there!

[dshimel]

Originally posted by Iacchus
I don't necessarily disagree with you here, in fact I don't even go to church. However, it is nice to know where we came from don't you think? :)

I think it is nice to think you know. Not knowing is scary. So, what is the harm in lettig yourself beleive you now the unknowable?

The problem with acceptiong you know the unknowable is that once you accept one thing without evidence, it is easy to accept all kinds of things without evidence. Next thing you know, people will not only be claiming to know the mind of God, they'll be claiming that they actually get to make decisiosn for God(Catholicism).

No. It is MUCH better to accept that the unknowable is unknowable, and judge all asertions on the amount of evidence supporting and detracting from the asertion.

[Ellis14]

Originally posted by dshimel
I think it is nice to think you know. Not knowing is scary. So, what is the harm in lettig yourself beleive you now the unknowable?

The problem with acceptiong you know the unknowable is that once you accept one thing without evidence, it is easy to accept all kinds of things without evidence. Next thing you know, people will not only be claiming to know the mind of God, they'll be claiming that they actually get to make decisiosn for God(Catholicism).

No. It is MUCH better to accept that the unknowable is unknowable, and judge all asertions on the amount of evidence supporting and detracting from the asertion.
Excellent. :notworthy

[orpheus last chant]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Ultimately it should teach us how to have self-respect (to love God with all thy heart, soul and mind) and, to be decent towards one another (to love thy neighbor as thyself). And if it doesn't teach that, then it doesn't warrant being called a religion. :)

No True scotsman. Sorry, even though your intentions are good, you don't get to define what's a religion...or what should be accepted as a True Religion TM.

I'd like to know how humans can love something that is basically more complex then they can comprehend, and how would that end up in self-respect. Can I claim that I love String-theory, I don't get it, but I love it, even though I don't know what it actually reffers to? :confused:

And why self-pride and empathy are such hard to conjure feelings out of a human, that they need a magical wrapper around them? Do we really need to have a magical bit to feel special and proud of ourselves, or to be the magna-universal entity's prime entertainment and concern to be nice with other humans?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Ellis10

Do you mean religion teaches us where we came from? Lol, because you know we are just going to disagree there! In other words it's this God vs Evolution thing, right? But don't you think we have a right to know, if there's more to our being here than having merely evolved from the apes? That's not particularly honest is it? Besides, if you don't know from whence you came (a good history lesson), how can you possibly know from whence you will go? It can make a big difference!

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by orpheus last chant

No True scotsman. Sorry, even though your intentions are good, you don't get to define what's a religion...or what should be accepted as a True Religion TM. Scotsman fallacy. What right do have to interpret what you think I said, as opposed to what I actually may have meant? These are not necessarily one and the same you see. ;) Matter of fact I think this whole board is full of the Scotsman fallacy. Or, has that imaginary Scotsman got me here to too? :p

[Stephen T-B]

(I realised, when the coin came up heads four times, that I'd set a rather low miracle-threshold. I'd originally thought of a 50 heads / tails-in-a-row sequence but had this sudden, rash impulse to knock it back to five And now that I know the odds, I shan't be trying that again...).