I Don't Need To Talk About God!

[Writer@Large]

It's weird, but I think I've reached a watershed moment in my atheism:

I don't need to talk about gods anymore.

I don't feel the drive to engage Xians about their religion. I don't see the point in starting discussions in Existence of God(s) about what aspect of theist worship makes the least sense. I don't sit there and gripe when religious themes crop up on a TV show--I just change the channel. When I walk past a church, I ignore it. When I see a stupid flyer on campus promoting a seven-week series of sermons on THE PASSION, I just shrug and walk away.

I'm content and secure in my philosophy. And I don't feel a need to justify myself to anyone, and I don't need to engage ideas to further "convince" myself. I don't really care about seeking atheist-themed essay collections or novels with atheist themes. I comfortable that, if confronted, I can defend and articulate my atheism. But I don't need to, and I'm not going looking for a fight just to do so. I'm not *sick* of it, but I don't see any point in doing it.

Has anyone else reached this stage? I suppose the next step is "positive atheism," maybe finally embracing secular humanism or some other solid atheist philosophy. Or maybe not. I dunno. But I feel different, and it feels pretty good.

--W@L

[Plognark]

I'm getting there....however, the current state of the country and the rampant religiosity is driving me towards a different tack. Instead of trying to shore up my own beliefs, which i'm very secure in, i'm trying to get other people to think for themselves.

It's a slow battle :rolleyes:

I find myself engaging christians and believers in the supernatural, but for completely different reasons than I used to.

[Mageth]

Heartfelt congratulations!

I see myself approaching that point, but not there yet; recently, I've been asking myself, "why am I here responding to all these repetitive theistic arguments? I've seen them all before, and I know why they are not sufficient for me."

However, being married to a believer, and being in a family of believers, makes things a bit difficult for me. It's hard for me to fully be comfortable in my non-belief while my wife, parents, and siblings don't accept it, if you know what I mean.

Also, at the moment I'm quite interested in mythology, religious history, humans' ideas of God, humans' seeming need for the transcendant in their lives, and the like, so I'm reading a pile of books on the subject, and spending more and more time here talking about such things rather than simply arguing over the existence or non-existence of God. Having "pulled out" of belief in God myself, I find myself quite interested in human nature, the human condition, and the significance of the search for the divine. Specifically, I'm interested in how Christianity (and the two other major Abrahamic religions) came to such prominence in the modern world.

I'm also interested in learning more, as you say, of "positive" atheism, not in the sense of "strong" atheism (which "positive atheism" is a synonym for) but in the sense of atheism as a positive philosophy that itself is a defendable position.

[King Rat]

It's only on this board where I get into antagonistic debates with theists. IRL they are few and far between, they never last as long, and they are usually much more civil.

Unless its my family...

[Face]

It depends on where you're coming from. A lot of people I've known over the years have reached peace with themselves and given up fighting with others over religious issues. Others get more crotchety and argumentative as time goes on.

For myself, if you read my 'testimony' in the relevant thread, you'd see that I used argument as my equivalent to teenage vandalism. In many ways I've not outgrown it these decades later - I still post on Rapture Ready and haven't yet gotten tired of ramming into the mental Wall of Ignorance that one comes up against.

I'd be interested to know, Writer@large, what kind of things you were doing before that you now feel free from?

[Viti]

Has anyone else reached this stage? I suppose the next step is "positive atheism," maybe finally embracing secular humanism or some other solid atheist philosophy. Or maybe not. I dunno. But I feel different, and it feels pretty good.

I have been there for some time when it comes to myself. I sincerely thank people when they pray for me (hey, somebody is thinking positive thoughts for me for a few minutes, thats a nice thing!), I don't debate with family or friends...however, when it comes to laws and religious encroachment on my rights, I cannot just brush that off. I am live and let live and I expect others to be the same.

[Writer@Large]

Originally posted by Face
I'd be interested to know, Writer@large, what kind of things you were doing before that you now feel free from? Participating in the Upper Fora, mostly. :)

I'll be honest, most of my antagonistic atheism occurs online. I'm *not* participating in online debates anymore. I haven't gotten into a religious scrum in the upper fora, really, in a few months. I'll still read things, but now it's more in my capacity as Mod@Large, not as an interested observer. And I've begun to think they are, as a whole, too negative, too "down on religion" as opposed to "up with atheism." And I'm not interested in 'down on religion" anymore.

I generally avoid religious discussions with my family and friends, as they never do much but kill a fun time. But there was a time when every religious flyer on campus bothered me, and I felt the need to mutter a reply to myself, or even (once or twice) Sharpie a response in the corner of them. Or when I'd gripe and groan whenever I saw a Left behind display at Wal-Mart [now, I realize they're no worse than all the other crap on the bestseller lists--I mean, come on, Tim LaHaye, Dean Koontz, Dan Brown, Nora Roberts, John Grisham ... they're all hacks]. In other words, it's mostly internal. I've decided not to let it bother me, unless and until it tries to impose itself on me. I'm still politically interested in C/S Separation, for example, but I'm through being antagonistic towards something merely because it's religious. I've moved on to apathy ;).

--W@L

[Writer@Large]

Originally posted by LadyShea
...however, when it comes to laws and religious encroachment on my rights, I cannot just brush that off. I am live and let live and I expect others to be the same. Oh, most definitely. I haven't given up on that, and I'm not going to ignore C/S separation issues. But I see those as positive actions, and civil liberties issues, not religion vs. atheism issues.

--W@L

[Dana]

Well, being fairly new to the boards, and argumentative, though not confrontational, by nature, and fairly new to atheism too, I am pleased to say that while I still seek to know everything I can about other atheists and xianity etc., and I get upset when I am forced to participate in xian proceedings, I was very proud of myself recently when I was scanning through the radio stations and did not even notice the religious ones, which would have had me on the phone, while driving, to one of my non-xian friends just a few months ago, complaining that I live in the bible belt and have to hear even one second of that bs.

Dana

[King Rat]

I've moved on to apathy.

whatever...




























;)

[sugarbeth]

Oh yeah, I've been there for a long time - I suppose that's why I don't really participate in too many discussions. :)

But it's proven pretty impossible to find community specifically with non-religious people except on an atheist forum - and atheist forums are always talking about religion for some reason. ;)

[ashe]

Hmm... it seems to be the general assumption around here that "over time" one should become more complacent. Why is that? Why not fight the good fight? I don't mean challenging random Christians on the street (that's just rude, IMHO) but why lose your sense of outrage?

Does it just stress you out eventually and you stop caring?

ashe

[Mageth]

Originally posted by ashe
Hmm... it seems to be the general assumption around here that "over time" one should become more complacent. Why is that?

Speaking as a former theist, I think it's more correct to characterize it as "more secure in my atheism". Initially, I felt an urge to "argue" against theistic beliefs. Now, I don't feel as strong of an urge.

Why not fight the good fight? I don't mean challenging random Christians on the street (that's just rude, IMHO) but why lose your sense of outrage?

Why should I be "outraged", exactly? I save that kind of energy for things that are important, such as fighting the fight for church/state separation, which is really independent of atheism (many theists are on the same side).

Does it just stress you out eventually and you stop caring?

I don't think anyone's indicated that they've stopped caring.

[Loki]

I understand, though I think I'm still too young and naive or just too new at atheism, and haven't reached that level of harmony in my life yet. I, too, am only hostile ot the religious online, and mostly at CF when someone says that all atheists are inhabited by demons or something like that.

Funny thing about campus flyers. When I flyered for one of the atheist groups, one of the signs said "Don't believe in God? That's okay." So a Christian group taped one of their flyers over the "That's Okay." I just pulled the sign out from beneath.

[The Cromwell Institute]

I think you and I are at roughly similar stages, W@L.

For a few years after my deconversion I talked about Christianity and the evils of religion all the time. It was always on my mind. I couldn't get past the stupidity of it all. It made me angry.

I still think christianity is stupid, but I've lost the rage. I no longer challenge street preachers. My heart rate doesn't change when I see christian proselytizers any more. Importantly, no-one's persecuting me here. There's no real need for me to be the militant atheist. I no longer discuss religion unless someone brings it up, and I just smile and nod when people tell me about their mexican saviour Jesus.

I think I've become a more interesting person since I let go of my obession with religion.

[Stacey Melissa]

While pursuing church/state separation issues is certainly a good first step, I think our society would also be a lot better if more people learned to think for themselves. One of the single largest impediments to that is religion. And so I go looking for "fights" rather than remaining apathetic on the issue. It's not so much that I'm anti-religion. It's more like I'm anti-ignorance. And what is currently the biggest purveyor of ignorance? Religion!

My battles against religion don't involve tearing up posters from religious groups, or anything like that. They only involve debate. That has a far longer lasting impact.

[Writer@Large]

Hmm... it seems to be the general assumption around here that "over time" one should become more complacent. Why is that? Why not fight the good fight? I don't mean challenging random Christians on the street (that's just rude, IMHO) but why lose your sense of outrage?

Does it just stress you out eventually and you stop caring?


It's not that. [Maybe "apathetic" was a bad choice of words.] It's more like ... let's see if I can explain it ...

In America, and it seems to me the world over, nontheists tend to define themselves by opposition. Atheist defined, not merely as lack of belief in gods, but in the active rejection of gods. In some ways, we've earned it, and in some ways, we've let theists paint us that way. Take a look at these boards! Out of nine upper forums, only THREE--Philosophy, Moral Foundations & Principles, and Science & Skepticism--are not directly crafted around religious opposition. [And one of those three--MF&P--is routinely taken up with the "religious vs. non-religious" debate.] The rest are defined by atheist vs. theist--Do gods exist? Are gods responsible for life on Earth? What about them Buddhists? Two thirds of them, in other words, are religion-oriented ... and the two truly non-religious forums (P and S&S) are two of the *least* popular, and draw fewer posts many of the others.

It's like we forge an identity through opposition. "I am an atheist, not because I have rejected religion, but because I can attack theism and defend against theism so well!" It's like the only way a newly minted atheist can feel secure in their atheism is by being defensive and antagonistic. Like they have something to prove, to themselves or to the world. There's nothing wrong with that, really. That's good! We *should* be able to defend our position, and we're the most likely to be called to task to do so by Xians or Muslims or whatnot.

I gues I'm just feeling ... more secure in my atheism. I don't find any theist argument--and I think I've heard them all, several times--even remotely threatening to my philosophy. More importantly, I don't see *theism* as a threat to my philosophy.

I dunno if I'm making this clear enough. I still feel outrage, when I see my President marginalize me as a citizen, or when I feel my right to think as I do are threatened. But I just don't feel the need to go out there and ... attack. Defend. Whatever.

Make sense?

--W@L

[Writer@Large]

Originally posted by Stacey Melissa
I think our society would also be a lot better if more people learned to think for themselves. One of the single largest impediments to that is religion. And so I go looking for "fights" rather than remaining apathetic on the issue. It's not so much that I'm anti-religion. It's more like I'm anti-ignorance. See, but that's the thing. You're absolutely right, and I agree 100%. But you know what? I didn't become an atheist by having my theist views attacked. I became an atheist after I became a thinker and a skeptic, and then turned those skills inward. Why attack religion--a negative tactic--when you could have more success teaching thinking and skepticism--a positive tactic? It's the whole "lead them to water" cliche. You can't force them to drink, but you can show them where the water is.

--W@L

[Face]

In other words, you don't need to prove to yourself that religionist views are bunk - you've done it to death and it finally just makes sense to the point where you don't need to bring it up again?

Much like science - you only need to demonstrate that things fall DOWN so many times before you just say, "It's gravity. It works. Why go through the paces to show how and why yet again?"

You and I have had much different experiences - I'm learning more and more here that the difference between a lifetime atheist and a 'deconvert' is hefty indeed; some things you just take for granted if you've never known any alternative state of mind.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by Writer@Large
Take a look at these boards! Out of nine upper forums, only THREE--Philosophy, Moral Foundations & Principles, and Science & Skepticism--are not directly crafted around religious opposition. [And one of those three--MF&P--is routinely taken up with the "religious vs. non-religious" debate.] The rest are defined by atheist vs. theist--Do gods exist? Are gods responsible for life on Earth? What about them Buddhists? Two thirds of them, in other words, are religion-oriented ... and the two truly non-religious forums (P and S&S) are two of the *least* popular, and draw fewer posts many of the others.

I agree totally. Actually, I was thinking about this very thing the other day, and I had an idea to suggest a forum along the lines of "Positive Atheism" as a place to discuss Atheism as a valid, positive, defendable philosophical position on its own, not just in contrast to theism/religion.

Make sense?

Absolutely.

[Writer@Large]

Originally posted by Face
In other words, you don't need to prove to yourself that religionist views are bunk - you've done it to death and it finally just makes sense to the point where you don't need to bring it up again? That's one way of putting it. :)

Originally posted by Mageth:
Actually, I was thinking about this very thing the other day, and I had an idea to suggest a forum along the lines of "Positive Atheism" as a place to discuss Atheism as a valid, positive, defendable philosophical position on its own, not just in contrast to theism/religion.I would absolutely back and support such a forum, and even offer to moderate it. Call it "Positive Atheism, Humanism, and Secular Philosophies" or somesuch.

[Wait, I guess I'd already be a moderator ... :)]

--W@L

[Mageth]

Originally posted by Writer@Large
I would absolutely back and support such a forum, and even offer to moderate it. Call it "Positive Atheism, Humanism, and Secular Philosophies" or somesuch.

[Wait, I guess I'd already be a moderator ... :)]

--W@L

Great. I'll suggest it and see if it flies.

[Greger]

Originally posted by Writer@Large
Has anyone else reached this stage?I'm there right now :) I reached that stage by the time I signed up here. I really looked forward to ripping theists apart, but I had lost all desire to debate. I studied religion intensely for over two years, and I was just walking around in circles the last few months. It's like another poster said, why keep proving that gravity exists?

I've dropped religion completely in exchange for behavior science (which I guess religion and religious behavior is a part of). I figure it'll keep me occupied for another couple of years. :)

Welcome to the next stage! :)

[fried beef sandwich]

Yup. It's a good feeling.

I think i hit that point about a year ago. That's when I started hanging out in the humor forums a lot more too.

A much more uplifting read.

[dendrast]

I became an atheist because I lost interest (my fear of the unknown?) in religion. Ah, but myth. That's different! Good stories.

[Stacey Melissa]

Originally posted by Writer@Large
I became an atheist after I became a thinker and a skeptic, and then turned those skills inward. Why attack religion--a negative tactic--when you could have more success teaching thinking and skepticism--a positive tactic?
Perhaps that's why I spend maybe half my debating time arguing against the general concept of faith. In the process, I'm arguing for reason.

My deconversion from Christianity was sparked in much the same way as yours, it sounds like. I was introduced to some of the conceptual problems of some of the major Eastern religions, then realized after awhile that those same criticisms could be applied to Christianity.

Originally posted by Face
Much like science - you only need to demonstrate that things fall DOWN so many times before you just say, "It's gravity. It works. Why go through the paces to show how and why yet again?"
Very well put.

I don't feel like I need to prove my religious views to myself. But proving those views to others is another story. Perhaps I just like to argue.