Dihydrogen Monoxide - Split From: Californians are Smart

[AlphaandOmega]

Originally posted by AmbiguousUbiquity
Hmmm.....can't really berate the "immigrant" governor who can barely speak English when there are a lot of "immigrant" residents in Aliso Viejo who can barely speak English themselves.....but with that thought aside.....

Gotta go with blaming the school system, I guess. Not enough time is spent on the proper nomenclature of chemical compounds (or biological organisms, for that matter). I can't speak for California schools since I didn't attend public school here, but growing up I learned the basics of naming chemical compounds, enough to at least recongnize the proper name for water.

Final thought: Embarrasing, and not unexpected, but it has nothing to do with our current governor, IMO. I don't see your correlation.


Well if you took real chemestry you would have learned that dihydrogen monoxide is also not the scientific name of water. The most correct name is hydrogen hydroxide, or hydronium hydroxide.

[Kalkin]

Well if you took real chemestry you would have learned that dihydrogen monoxide is also not the scientific name of water. The most correct name is hydrogen hydroxide, or hydronium hydroxide.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that. Water isn't an ionic compound, it's a covalent compound. Those are ionic naming conventions you're using. I don't think that it dissociates to an extent negligible outside acid-base chemistry is enough to make it ionic...

[AlphaandOmega]

Originally posted by Kalkin
I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that. Water isn't an ionic compound, it's a covalent compound. Those are ionic naming conventions you're using. I don't think that it dissociates to an extent negligible outside acid-base chemistry is enough to make it ionic...

Water is formed by the covalent bond of hydrogen with a positive charge and hydroxide with a negative charge. When you look at the struture of water it is HOH and not H2O. In my college chemestry class it was one of the early things we learned that water should really be writen at HOH and not H2O.

[erimir]

Hydronium and hydroxide are ions. Their names are only used in ionic compounds.

Covalent molecules are named things like carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide... and dihydrogen monoxide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water

"Dihydrogen monoxide" would be the systematic way for naming water, according to the normal conventions for naming covalent molecules.

Additionally, "hydroxic acid", "hydroxilic acid", "hydrogen hydroxide" might be given if you follow acid or base naming conventions.

So, you were right about "hydrogen hydroxide", although "dihydrogen monoxide" would be more accurate since water is not technically a base, and therefore wouldn't be named like one.

However, "hydronium hydroxide" would be incorrect.

Hydronium ions are H3O+ and hydroxide ions are OH-, so hydronium hydroxide would end up being H4O2, which is actually two water molecules.

[AlphaandOmega]

Originally posted by erimir
Hydronium and hydroxide are ions. Their names are only used in ionic compounds.

Covalent molecules are named things like carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide... and dihydrogen monoxide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water

"Dihydrogen monoxide" would be the systematic way for naming water, according to the normal conventions for naming covalent molecules.

Additionally, "hydroxic acid", "hydroxilic acid", "hydrogen hydroxide" might be given if you follow acid or base naming conventions.

So, you were right about "hydrogen hydroxide", although "dihydrogen monoxide" would be more accurate since water is not technically a base, and therefore wouldn't be named like one.

However, "hydronium hydroxide" would be incorrect.

Hydronium ions are H3O+ and hydroxide ions are OH-, so hydronium hydroxide would end up being H4O2, which is actually two water molecules.


Actually H+ an be hydronium. Second water is not formed by the bond of 2 hydrogens with 1 oxygen it is formed by the bond of 1 hydrogen with 1 hydroxide. Third struturally water is HOH and not H20. Talk to person with a high degree in chemestry the struture of water is HOH so when it is written it should be written as HOH to reflect its structure. The name dihydrogen monoxide implies that water is created by the bonding of 2 hydrogen with 1 oxygen when that is not true. While the bond between the hydrogen and the hydroxide molecule is very weak the bond of the hydrogen molecule is very strong and nearly unbreakable. Because of that they should be considured one things. So hydrogen hydroxide can represent a name of a convelent bond.

[Loren Pechtel]

Originally posted by AlphaandOmega
Well if you took real chemestry you would have learned that dihydrogen monoxide is also not the scientific name of water. The most correct name is hydrogen hydroxide, or hydronium hydroxide.

Dihydrogen monoxide isn't the normal chemical name of water but it is a correct name.

[catalyst]

This is head up to S&S.

Catalyst
Moderator

[Sven]

Originally posted by AlphaandOmega
In my college chemestry class it was one of the early things we learned that water should really be writen at HOH and not H2O.
Actually this isn't necessary at all. When you have an organic compound, you also don't have to write H3CCH3 instead of C2H6 for ethane. This is simply the difference between a totals formula and a formula describing the constitution. Both are right, none of them should be preferred at the outset.

Regarding the "scientific" name of water: I actually heard a lecture on nomenclature once :)
I'd say the correct name is simply dihydrogen oxide - without the "mon-". This is because when you name something, you have to use the shortest name possible which still is unambiguous. For example, look at CaCl2. It's name is calcium chloride, not monocalcium dichloride. In principle, one would have to write hydrogen oxide without the "di" - but since there's also "hydroxide" OH-, I think there's some chance to confuse the two.

I always liked organic chemistry more than anorganic chemistry. Using organic nomenclature, you can term water "oxidane". Groovy, isn't it? :D

And as an aside: You are allowed to use ionic names for covalent compounds (e.g. oxide).

[liamo]

Originally posted by AlphaandOmega
Actually H+ an be hydronium
H+ ---> proton
H3O+ ---> hydronium ion

[Jackalope]

Okay, I'll cop to it: we put dihydrogen monoxide on the orignal WARNING flyers 15 years ago because it sounded more dangerous to the average hippy tree-hugger. Since we were posting the flyers all over UC Santa Cruz campus in the middle of the night, we were going for maxium scare value.

You can see a web version of our original flyer here:
Coalition to Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide (http://www.circus.com/~no_dhmo/)
You can also see the counter-page another guy in our group of friends put up later to make it look even more like a real "issue":
Friends of Hydrogen Hydroxide (http://www.armory.com/~crisper/DHMO/)

The guy that grabbed dhmo.org ripped off our original flyer almost entirely, for which he is a loser and should have at least shown a little orignality by rewriting it. However, our old crew of pranksters is amused that a middle of the night prank done 15 years ago is still snaring the unwary.

http://gw.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/DHMO.gif
Lee Thompson-Herbert
Inspector General, Coalition to Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide.

[iridium]

With respect AplhaandOmega

You're speaking out of your arse I'm afraid

Iridum
PhD chemist

[iridium]

http://www.chemistry.mcmaster.ca/esam/Chapter_8/section_6.html (http://)

Have a look at this webpage A'n'O, it has a fairly good treatment of the molecular orbital bonding description of water and other polyatomic molecules. The bonding description in water is NOT an H+ bonded to an OH-, the oxygen bonds equally to both forming three centre molcular orbital (MO) from the indivual atomic orbitals (AO). The two 1s orbitals of the H atoms overalp with the 2s orbital of the oxygen to form bonding, nonbonding and antibonding MOs. The same H 1s orbital also over lap in phase with one lobe of the filled O 2pz orbital and also antiphase withrespect to each other with opposite lobes of the 2py. Since the H orbitals will then have equal overlap with both the positive and negative lobes of the 2px orbital of the oxygen and therefore result in a zero overlap intergral this is a non bonding oxygen orbital. This theoretical description of MO bonding in water is confirmed by experiment and photoelectron spectroscopy

[Al Chemist]

Originally posted by Sven
Regarding the "scientific" name of water: I actually heard a lecture on nomenclature once :)
I'd say the correct name is simply dihydrogen oxide - without the "mon-". This is because when you name something, you have to use the shortest name possible which still is unambiguous. For example, look at CaCl2. It's name is calcium chloride, not monocalcium dichloride. In principle, one would have to write hydrogen oxide without the "di" - but since there's also "hydroxide" OH-, I think there's some chance to confuse the two.
[/B]

Using the rules for naming binary covalent compounds, water would be dihydrogen monoxide. The counting prefixes (mono-, di, tri-, etc.) are always used on the second element, but are omitted if there is only one of the first element in the formula. (For instance, you wouldn't say monocarbon monoxide, you would just say carbon monoxide. If you're into saying things like that, I mean.;) ).

Calcium chloride is a different case, since it's an ionic compound, and the 2+ charge on the calcium and the 1- charge on the chloride ion can only combine in one way.

[/pedantic]

[AmbiguousUbiquity]

The bottom line for my point was that I was actually able to determine dihydrogen monoxide WAS water by the name and going by the rules of nomenclature, something which I'm not sure they focus on too much in schools in California, judging by the article.

At any rate, it's good to know that I actually did take a "real" chemIstry class in HIGH SCHOOL, not to mention 2 years of "real" chemIstry in college.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Al Chemist
Using the rules for naming binary covalent compounds, water would be dihydrogen monoxide. The counting prefixes (mono-, di, tri-, etc.) are always used on the second element, but are omitted if there is only one of the first element in the formula. (For instance, you wouldn't say monocarbon monoxide, you would just say carbon monoxide. If you're into saying things like that, I mean.;) ).

Calcium chloride is a different case, since it's an ionic compound, and the 2+ charge on the calcium and the 1- charge on the chloride ion can only combine in one way.

[/pedantic]

I found this at the LSU chemistry department web page (http://www.chem.lsu.edu/lucid/subjectinfo/naming.html):

Binary Compounds of Hydrogen Are Special

1. With elements from Groups I and VII, hydrogen forms diatomic molecules according to our earlier guidelines: Thus LiH is Lithium hydride, HCl is Hydrogen Chloride

2. With elements from Groups II and VI, hydrogen forms compounds containing two atoms of hydrogen. Except for oxygen, there is only one known binary compound for each element, so the prefix di- is omitted: That is why H2S is not dihydrogen sulfide but is hydrogen sulfide. Oxygen forms two binary compounds with hydrogen and each is known by its informal name. One is water, H2O, the other is hydrogen peroxide, H2O2.

3. The systematic approach to chemical nomenclature is abandoned for binary compounds of hydrogen with the elements from Groups III, IV, and V.
NH3 is not nitrogen trihydride, it is ammonia
PH3 is called phosphine
AsH3 is called arsine

4. Carbon, boron, and silicon form many different binary compounds with hydrogen. Binary compounds of silicon and hydrogen are called silanes, binary compounds of boron and hydrogen are called boranes

While it says the informal name of H2O is water, one would get the idea the its formal name should be Hydrogen Oxide just as H2S is Hydrogen Sulfide. It also mentions H2O2 with the informal name of Hydrogen Peroxide. Would its formal name be Hydrogen Dioxide?

Or is that page woefully wrong?

[iridium]

Well put it this way, you buy heavy water, D2O, from your supplier and it's in the catalogue and comes labelled as deuterium oxide, surely that should settle the matter...

[Oolon Colluphid]

Originally posted by Sven
I'd say the correct name is simply dihydrogen oxide - without the "mon-". This is because when you name something, you have to use the shortest name possible which still is unambiguous.
So the di- isn't necessary either. You don't need to note the number of atoms involved unless it's relevant, eg CO carbon monoxide / CO2 carbon dioxide; phosphorus trichloride / phosphorus pentachloride. Water doesn't normally come as H3O, or H2O3 or whatever, so there's no chance of confusion (since hydrogen peroxide has its own name). If Fe2O3 can be simply iron oxide (not di-ferrous trioxide), then I don't see why H2O can't be just hydrogen oxide.

Oolon, A Level chemist 1985 ;)

[Al Chemist]

Originally posted by Invader Zim
3. The systematic approach to chemical nomenclature is abandoned for binary compounds of hydrogen with the elements from Groups III, IV, and V. [/B]

I guess this just illustrates Newton's Third Law of Chemical Nomenclature: For every nomenclature rule in chemistry there is an equal and opposite rule. :D

[SEF]

This thread is hilarious! I think we could now have bids for:

• hydrogen oxide (from H2S)
• dihydrogen oxide (because the 2 matters to some people)
• dihydrogen monoxide (from CO and CO2)
• hydrogen monoxide (ditto since the H2 doesn't change in peroxide)
• hydrogen hydroxide (from NaOH)
• hydroxyl hydride (from LiH)
• hydroxic acid (from H2SO4 etc)
• hydro-hydroxic acid (from HCl)
• there ought also to be something like hydrous oxide to contrast with hydrogen peroxide being hydric oxide (ie like ferrous and ferric or cuprous and cupric but ignoring the lack of ionic state)
• hydrated vacuum (to be surreal based on crystals)
• hethanol or hanol or zeroanol (to go with propanol etc)

Any more? http://img33.photobucket.com/albums/v101/_SEF_/smiley/Y16grin.gif

[Al Chemist]

Okay, enough of this "hydrogen first" bias. How about oxygen dihydride? (or just oxygen hydride?)

Actually, I think this is turning out to be all wet. :D

[SEF]

Originally posted by iridium
Well put it this way, you buy heavy water, D2O, from your supplier and it's in the catalogue and comes labelled as deuterium oxide, surely that should settle the matter... I'm not so sure it does (not that the name is wrong!) unless there is also a D2O2 and the naming scheme for that matches (eg deuterium peroxide) without anyone getting confused about the single oxygen version.

[Sven]

I found this at the LSU chemistry department web page (http://www.chem.lsu.edu/lucid/subjectinfo/naming.html):
While it says the informal name of H2O is water, one would get the idea the its formal name should be Hydrogen Oxide just as H2S is Hydrogen Sulfide. It also mentions H2O2 with the informal name of Hydrogen Peroxide. Would its formal name be Hydrogen Dioxide?
Or is that page woefully wrong?
I'd say this page (you) is exactly right. Hydrogen oxide for H20 - and hydrogen dioxide for H2O2. But I see some problems naming HO(-) and HO2(-) correctly this way... anyway, we really should stop this kind of silly naming game :p

Oolon: So the di- isn't necessary either.
Yes, I know this. Read my post again, please. I only suggested to use the "di" because of possible confusion with hydroxide OH(-). But since the page linked by Invader Zim also neglects the "di", we apparently have to live with this possibility :D

[Oolon Colluphid]

Oolon: So the di- isn't necessary either.
Yes, I know this. Read my post again, please.
:p
I know that you know that, but didn't know that unknown others know that, so I wanted to make it known to those who may not know what you know and I know.

Oolon ;)

[iridium]

I'm not so sure it does (not that the name is wrong!) unless there is also a D2O2 and the naming scheme for that matches (eg deuterium peroxide) without anyone getting confused about the single oxygen version.

No, honestly, that's how it comes labelled from our suppliers

[SEF]

No, honestly, that's how it comes labelled from our suppliers
I think you misunderstand. I wasn't disputing based on the idea that you had got the name wrong from the bottle or even that the name on the bottle was incorrect! What I meant was that, without the existence of D2O2 to contrast with D2O, the use of the name deuterium oxide does not prove that hydrogen oxide would be an appropriate name for water if the main idea is to include just enough precision to minimise confusion between similar chemicals. Similarly what about H2S2...

[Boro Nut]

In my college chemestry class it was one of the early things we learned...

So you took chemestry at college did you? I'm suprised you found which room it was in.

Boro Nut

[Boro Nut]

..although "dihydrogen monoxide" would be more accurate since water is not technically a base.

What about Ice Hockey?

Boro Nut

[Al Chemist]

What about Ice Hockey?

Boro Nut

That would be played on (H2O)^3

(Is there any good way to do superscripts and subscripts here?)

[SEF]

This limited amount of entity copying works for me:

E = mc²
V = 4/3 πr³

[SEF]

Perhaps messing with the font size (-2) will work too:
H2O
NH3
CH4