Holy Suicide

[breathilizer]

Assuming God is alive...

And assuming God can do ANYTHING...

Can God kill himself?

[Doubting Didymus]

Where are you going with this? What would you say if the answer was "yes"?

[The Bearded One]

I think the Xian theory is that God did commit suicide, then resurected Itself three days later. I'm not sure: I was raised Jewish; that tri-part God thing always confused me.

-- The Bearded One

[-X-]

define "alive" please

if u are saying "alive" as to refer to the way a human being is alive, then u are implying consciousness as well...

a tree is something that is very much alive but cannot kill itself... it is not a conscious entity (to our knowledge!)

define "god" t00, please...

if an 02 god (at least omnipotent and omniscient), then said god is both life and death... said god created those things...

u may be on to an interesting line of thinking... i'd like to see where this goes... :D

especially since this is another, more interesting, version of the big rock question...

[Iacchus]

"And God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son."

Well somebody bought it here. Of course maybe the whole point of the death and resurrection thing is to illustrate God is Eternal and lives on forever. So, whether we crucify Him in the flesh is besides the point (it doesn't ultimately affect Him), because God lives on in The Spirit.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by breathilizer
Assuming God is alive...

And assuming God can do ANYTHING...

Can God kill himself? No God can't. God is eternal and immortal. This is just another one of those dumb can God create a rock too heavy to lift arguments.

[atechnie]

But if God is omnipotent shouldn't he be able to kill himself?

atechnie

[breathilizer]

-X-, yes I am implying consciousness.

-X-, just because you create something, doesn't mean you are that thing. Just because God creates death, does not mean he's dead. If you have another reason for why he's "both alive and dead," I'd like to read it.

Iacchus, yeah, I'd have to say so as well. In fact, it also goes to show that if Jesus existed, and was the son of God, and died for our sins, and all that jazz... then he didn't really do anything all that special. He didn't put faith in God (himself?). He knew. He's Martha Stewart, acting on inside information.

DD, who says I'm "going" anywhere? Okay, I sort of am, but not really. I'm more interested in where you guys take it. I was half asleep thinking about this stuff, and I started to wonder if God could kill himself (die). If yes, then does everything (me and you) go down with him? If no, is he really all-powerful?

Magus, I'd be careful about calling other people's arguments dumb if I were you. I've read a lot of your posts, and they rarely impress me. Besides, I asked a question in search of an answer. The rock question is meant to stump. This one may have an actual answer.

[case]

I'm not sure I would use the term "kill himself". Yes, we can argue the Jesus angle, but I doubt it would be very productive. What does interest me is, if god exists, could he make himself unexist?

I think either answer says much about his ability. If he can't, that means there is a power he does not possess; that over his own existence. This would also seem to imply that he didn't have a hand in his own creation, which leads us to the first cause problem.

If he can, then he is able to extinguish himself, seemingly at will. That also means that he is no longer permanent; there is a possibility that he will not always be. Sort of throws a kink into theistic ideals, I would think.

[Randy X]

I would say that God cannot commit suicide because God exists necessarily, according to the very popular form of apologetic monotheism. God is also apparently immortal and eternal. . .etcetc.

You could say that the fact that God cannot perform the logically possible action "to commit suicide," or bring about the logically possible state of affairs "someone autonomously commits suicide," indicates that He is not omnipotent. It is possible to imagine a more powerful being, one who can commit suicide.

Therefore, God is not maximally powerful, and maximal power is a necessary condition for omnipotence. Perhaps that helps.

Sincerely,

Christ

[haverbob]

Originally posted by breathilizer
Assuming God is alive...

And assuming God can do ANYTHING...

Can God kill himself?

This is a recycle of the "can God make a rock that he cannot lift?" concept. Omnipotent doesn't necessarily have to mean "capable of all things". It could mean "capable of all do-able things" There is another thing that God is not capable of. He is not capable of forcing us to love him, because if we were forced to love him, then it can be said that we do not really love him in the sense that we think of love (a mutual feeling based on free will). So how could true love ever be forced, and hence how could God do this?

[breathilizer]

Originally posted by haverbob
This is a recycle of the "can God make a rock that he cannot lift?" concept. Omnipotent doesn't necessarily have to mean "capable of all things". It could mean "capable of all do-able things" There is another thing that God is not capable of. He is not capable of forcing us to love him, because if we were forced to love him, then it can be said that we do not really love him in the sense that we think of love (a mutual feeling based on free will). So how could true love ever be forced, and hence how could God do this?

Back on topic, please? Can God cause himself to no longer exist?

[haverbob]

Originally posted by breathilizer
Back on topic, please? Can God cause himself to no longer exist?

We couldn't be sure. If you want me to place a bet, then i will say the answer is "no". Why do you think i took the time to explain to you something else God couldn't do (force us to love him). Here's another one. If God is pure truth, then is God capable of lying? As I said, to me, omnipotent means being capable of all "do-able" things, perhaps because God "is" all things, and more (not sure about the last part, just theoretical).

[breathilizer]

Originally posted by haverbob
We couldn't be sure. If you want me to place a bet, then i will say the answer is "no". Why do you think i took the time to explain to you something else God couldn't do (force us to love him). Here's another one. If God is pure truth, then is God capable of lying? As I said, to me, omnipotent means being capable of all "do-able" things, perhaps because God "is" all things, and more (not sure about the last part, just theoretical).

Actually God COULD force us to love him. Isn't that what it was like before we had 'free will'?

And yes, God COULD lie to us as long as he was doing it for a specific purpose. (i.e. The Oracle telling Neo that he's not "The One")

Define "do-able," because I don't see the phrase "do-able" in the definition of omnipotent:

Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.

UNLIMITED. That means an omnipotent entity would NOT be limited strictly to the "do-able"

That is why humans are not omnipotent, because there are things we can't do, such as turn into a goose.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by case
I'm not sure I would use the term "kill himself". Yes, we can argue the Jesus angle, but I doubt it would be very productive. What does interest me is, if god exists, could he make himself unexist?

I think either answer says much about his ability. If he can't, that means there is a power he does not possess; that over his own existence. This would also seem to imply that he didn't have a hand in his own creation, which leads us to the first cause problem.

If he can, then he is able to extinguish himself, seemingly at will. That also means that he is no longer permanent; there is a possibility that he will not always be. Sort of throws a kink into theistic ideals, I would think. The Bible makes it clear ( yes i'm well aware that you don't find Biblical verses to have much meaning but this is a theological question) that God has no beginning or End. He is not caused. He just Is. God did not create Himself, nor did anyone else Create Him.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by breathilizer
Back on topic, please? Can God cause himself to no longer exist? Short answer no. It goes against God's nature, and as such, is below Him. Suicide is inferior to perfection, therefore its not within the bounds of a perfect being.

[Ellis14]

Magus is right here.

I don't see God's inability to kill himself a flaw. God can do anything, but God also says that because he is just, he cannot lie. So God has the ability to lie, but his own nature forbids him from lying. Is he still omnipotent? Yes.

God can do anything. Can he kill himself? No, because God by definition cannot die. God is omnipotent, but can he make himself impotent? No, because that would contradict his nature as God.

If God exists, then these problems above are not really problems at all.

(However, what these seemingly contradictory situations might show is that omnipotence is not a logically-possible property for any entity to possess).

[Magus55]

Originally posted by breathilizer
Actually God COULD force us to love him. Isn't that what it was like before we had 'free will'? I agree God could create humans without free will, but then we would have no meaning, which is why He didn't.

And yes, God COULD lie to us as long as he was doing it for a specific purpose. (i.e. The Oracle telling Neo that he's not "The One") Actually no, God can't lie. It goes against His nature of being pure truth. Lying is a sin, which God can't do.

Define "do-able," because I don't see the phrase "do-able" in the definition of omnipotent:

Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. I believe do-able would refer to that which is logically possible by God's standards. God can't create a paradox against His nature, so anything that defies His own nature, does not fit the category of all powerful. And the definition of omnipotent depends on which dictionary you are using, and whether you are going by the context of the Bible. Some dictionaries say virtually or relatively all powerful. And by your definition, God does fit omnipotence in that He has unlimited authority ( known as Sovereignty). Everything in creation is under God's rule and authority. Nothing has more power or authority than God.


That is why humans are not omnipotent, because there are things we can't do, such as turn into a goose. I'd say humans aren't omnipotent because they don't have authority over all of creation. I'd saying being able to create the universe by speaking is pretty dang omnipotent by all human understanding.

[breathilizer]

Originally posted by Magus55
I agree God could create humans without free will, but then we would have no meaning, which is why He didn't.

then we have no meaning. what's the big deal about that?

Actually no, God can't lie. It goes against His nature of being pure truth. Lying is a sin, which God can't do.

Isn't killing a sin also? {removed} I caught you! Killing is a sin{removed}! God CAN sin!!!!!!! and WILL if he has to...

... sorry, adrenaline rush

I believe do-able would refer to that which is logically possible by God's standards. God can't create a paradox against His nature, so anything that defies His own nature, does not fit the category of all powerful. And the definition of omnipotent depends on which dictionary you are using, and whether you are going by the context of the Bible. Some dictionaries say virtually or relatively all powerful. And by your definition, God does fit omnipotence in that He has unlimited authority ( known as Sovereignty). Everything in creation is under God's rule and authority. Nothing has more power or authority than God.

{deleted insults}

"God's standards," which who defines? you, and you redefine them every 10 minutes.


I'd say humans aren't omnipotent because they don't have authority over all of creation. I'd saying being able to create the universe by speaking is pretty dang omnipotent by all human understanding.

{deleted insult}

:rolleyes:

[Magus55]

Originally posted by breathilizer
then we have no meaning. what's the big deal about that? Tell that to the atheists who are offended when theists say a life of atheism is meaningless. How would you like it if your family was incapable of choosing to love you? Since love is the greatest virtue, denying humans the ability to love is not something I could see God doing.



Isn't killing a sin also? BAM! WHAT MOTHA FUCKA! WHHHAAAATTTTT!. HA BITCH! I caught you! Killing is a sin, motha fucka! God CAN sin!!!!!!! and WILL if he has to... Murder is a sin. Killing isn't always murder.



"Hi, my name is Magus. God is. Therefore, God is."

You're a nut case, man. I'm sorry, but you are. Ah, and the insults start coming. If it makes you feel superior and boosts your ego to call me a nut case, what the heck ever. I don't really give a crap what you think, Capisce?

"God's standards," which who defines? you, and you redefine them every 10 minutes. I don't redefine them. They are provided in the book you so vehemently reject.

[Yannis (J'ohn)]

Originally posted by breathilizer
Can God kill himself?
I don't see why not. Why couldn't an omniscient and omnipotent being commit suicide? There is no technical complication there.

Even if we somehow assume that the existence of God is irrevocably tied with the physical existence of the universe, in a way that the latter cannot exist without the former, then we simply reach the conclusion that, if God commited suicide, the universe would be destroyed.

But that still doesn't bar God from commiting suicide...

SBS :)

PS: Mind you, I'm not talking about the case of Jesus. That's not suicide, that's cheating. ;)

[breathilizer]

{Post deleted - inflammatory & insulting}

[Weltall]

Originally posted by Magus55
Murder is a sin. Killing isn't always murder. Two words Magus: The Flood.
I don't redefine them. They are provided in the book you so vehemently reject. When said book lays out a clear set of standards that do not contradict themselves and do not contain morally questionable standards, we'll have something to discuss; too bad that won't happen. :p

[Ellis14]

I don't think it's fair to attack Magus or his beliefs in this thread. IMHO, we are discussing the theoretical implications of omnipotence and whether such a being could kill itself. Whether the bible is a pile of crap is irrelevant.

If we having a theological discussion then we must do so on theological and logical grounds.

[breathilizer]

Originally posted by Ellis10
I don't think it's fair to attack Magus or his beliefs in this thread. IMHO, we are discussing the theoretical implications of omnipotence and whether such a being could kill itself. Whether the bible is a pile of crap is irrelevant.

If we having a theological discussion then we must do so on theological and logical grounds.

You're probably right...

Magus, my apologies

[breathilizer]

Originally posted by Yannis (J'ohn)
I don't see why not. Why couldn't an omniscient and omnipotent being commit suicide? There is no technical complication there.

Even if we somehow assume that the existence of God is irrevocably tied with the physical existence of the universe, in a way that the latter cannot exist without the former, then we simply reach the conclusion that, if God commited suicide, the universe would be destroyed.

But that still doesn't bar God from commiting suicide...

SBS :)

PS: Mind you, I'm not talking about the case of Jesus. That's not suicide, that's cheating. ;)

Could God come back? I don't think he could, but hey... you never know...

[Ellis14]

Originally posted by breathilizer
Could God come back? I don't think he could, but hey... you never know...
According to the Trinity doctrine, God died to appease himself and resurrected himself from the dead! So if you believe the trinity, you could probably maintain that God could kill itself and also come back from nowhere!

[azidhak]

Originally posted by -X-
then said god is both life and death[/B]
God is Scrödinger's Cat?:eek: :D

[jon.g]

Originally posted by Magus55
Murder is a sin. Killing isn't always murder.



woah, how is killing not murder?



edit: i suppose assisted suicide is killing, without being murdered, im still not satisfied though.

Exd 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.

^ that is an example of killing, without it being assisted suicide.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Weltall
Two words Magus: The Flood. Murder is killing without justification and with malice, neither of which fit the criteria of the flood. And atheists don't even believe in God, let alone the flood, so who the heck cares?

When said book lays out a clear set of standards that do not contradict themselves and do not contain morally questionable standards, we'll have something to discuss; too bad that won't happen. :p Jesus' set of standards are laid out, and many of them have become the staple of civilized society.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Ellis10
According to the Trinity doctrine, God died to appease himself and resurrected himself from the dead! So if you believe the trinity, you could probably maintain that God could kill itself and also come back from nowhere! Thats not quite what the Trinity doctrine states.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by jon.g
woah, how is killing not murder?



Um, there are a lot of examples of killing that isn't murder. War, manslaughter, self-defense, etc. Although I think war is a bad justification for going out and killing a bunch of people, but by our law its accepted.

[Thugpreacha]

Originally posted by haverbob
We couldn't be sure. If you want me to place a bet, then i will say the answer is "no". Why do you think i took the time to explain to you something else God couldn't do (force us to love him). Here's another one. If God is pure truth, then is God capable of lying? As I said, to me, omnipotent means being capable of all "do-able" things, perhaps because God "is" all things, and more (not sure about the last part, just theoretical).

As a Theist, I say that the answer is No. We would never know, however, for if God ceased to exist for a period of time, all of creation would cease to exist as well. In Him is life. Life is not a concept that can thrive without Him.

[jon.g]

Originally posted by Magus55
War, manslaughter, self-defense, etc.

i think the only difference between murder and killing would be a difference in legality then.

[case]

Originally posted by Magus55
The Bible makes it clear ( yes i'm well aware that you don't find Biblical verses to have much meaning but this is a theological question) that God has no beginning or End. He is not caused. He just Is. God did not create Himself, nor did anyone else Create Him.

Why the hell do these threads always end up with the murder/killing argument?

You're right Magus, I don't find Biblical verses to have much meaning. At least not in this thread. We could just as easily be talking about Allah, or some other deity, so the using biblical verses doesn't really do much for us here.

The problem is that if god "just is", it implies that he is lacking in power over his own existance. To be honest, I'm getting a bit strung out on these omnipotent arguments, so I'm going to stay away from it. But if we assume god was not created, and has no end, we can resonablly assume that he a) has not the power to end himself, e.i. lacks control over his own existance, or b) is able to end himself, and thus we can no longer take it for granted that god will always be around, because there is a possiblity that he would will himself to cease to exist. We could argue over that, but I'm tired right now, so I'll just invoke that old standby, the Flood. Any entity that would drown almost every little creature strikes me as just a bit emotional.

[-X-]

This is a recycle of the "can God make a rock that he cannot lift?" concept. Omnipotent doesn't necessarily have to mean "capable of all things". It could mean "capable of all do-able things" There is another thing that God is not capable of. He is not capable of forcing us to love him, because if we were forced to love him, then it can be said that we do not really love him in the sense that we think of love (a mutual feeling based on free will). So how could true love ever be forced, and hence how could God do this?

i don't know if it is not god who cannot "force" us to do anything...

he either gave us free will or did not... there are certain things that go along with that...

for example, god could either make us subject to the laws of gravity or not...
god made us subject to the laws of gravity, therefore we, being bound by the laws of gravity, must do as gravity "forces" us to...

Back on topic, please? Can God cause himself to no longer exist?

this is different from the main topic... which was "can god kill himself assuming that he is alive...?" (more or less)

both life and existence are inherently bound to the "laws" of time, which, imo, an omnipotent being would "exist" (for lack of a better word) outside of... therefore, not being bound to them...

the following are 2 "problems" many see with omnipotence, but most (if not all) do not realize its not omnipotence that is the problem, but the english language (or any language) to describe it

1. an omnipotent being cannot be more than omnipotent (this implies a limitation, but it is actually a problem language has defining the omnipotent)

2. an omnipotent being cannot be less than omnipotent (see parentheses above)

so let's convert it to math:

A=Omnipotent Entity

A=A

therefore:

A is not =<A
and
A is not =>A

i think i finally got around to posting the math side of the omnipotence issue, and i hope it clears it up a bit...

so, to answer the original question, i would have to say i could not "assume" that god (if god is an omnipotent entity) could be "alive" (in the sense that a human being is alive) so therefore the rest of the question kind of goes out the window... sorry...

[Darth Dane]

And yes, God COULD lie to us as long as he was doing it for a specific purpose. (i.e. The Oracle telling Neo that he's not "The One")

Wrong analogy.
In the first movie when Neo is with the Oracle, he isn´t the One. She says he has the gift, like the other potentials, but not until Neo realizes this for himself is he the One.

He didn´t believe he was the One, how could any words from her mouth convince him? He would be in doubt, because it came from someone else.

[haverbob]

Wrong analogy.
In the first movie when Neo is with the Oracle, he isn´t the One. She says he has the gift, like the other potentials, but not until Neo realizes this for himself is he the One.

He didn´t believe he was the One, how could any words from her mouth convince him? He would be in doubt, because it came from someone else.

I never thought of that, and yet it makes perfect sense, not just in terms of the movie, in terms of this whole thing about God. Very well done. I have said in other threads that if we stand around with our arms folded and foot tapping saying "yeah, come on God, show us what you got, prove it", it will never happen. It's not a one way street, it is a two way street. Shouldn't WE have to do something as well to complete this bridge? Jesus healed very few in his hometown because very few had faith in him (or so the story goes). He always said "your faith has healed you", rather than "I" have healed you.

[breathilizer]

Wrong analogy.
In the first movie when Neo is with the Oracle, he isn´t the One. She says he has the gift, like the other potentials, but not until Neo realizes this for himself is he the One.

He didn´t believe he was the One, how could any words from her mouth convince him? He would be in doubt, because it came from someone else.
If she had told him that he was the One, he would have had confidence, but no knowledge of how to use it. By telling him that he wasn't the One, she caused him to work harder, thus making him earn that top-spot, which he had all along. She lied to him with a purpose. Remember, the Oracle isn't necessarily honest. She just knows the future, and she knows what her role has to be in order for her vision of the future to come about.

[breathilizer]

I never thought of that, and yet it makes perfect sense, not just in terms of the movie, in terms of this whole thing about God. Very well done. I have said in other threads that if we stand around with our arms folded and foot tapping saying "yeah, come on God, show us what you got, prove it", it will never happen. It's not a one way street, it is a two way street. Shouldn't WE have to do something as well to complete this bridge? Jesus healed very few in his hometown because very few had faith in him (or so the story goes). He always said "your faith has healed you", rather than "I" have healed you.
So you admit that it could all just be a lie to make people feel better about themselves so that they will do things on their own?

[Calzaer]

No God can't. God is eternal and immortal. This is just another one of those dumb can God create a rock too heavy to lift arguments.

So you deny that Jesus (100% god, 100% man) died on the cross?

So God was just play-acting? Where's the "sacrifice"? If Jesus didn't actually DIE for our sins, that means you're going to hell right along with the rest of us because you haven't been giving your wave and heave offerings.

[arcadia]

God is Scrödinger's Cat?:eek: :D



And...the act of discovering him usually destroys him. :notworthy

[-X-]

Originally Posted by azidhak

God is Scrödinger's Cat?

And...the act of discovering him usually destroys him.

it's all about perception... if we don't perceive it, then it doesn't matter... a classic scientific approach...

ya, but what if the box is made of glass?

the problem w/ perception is that everyone has a different view of it... :eek:

[Yannis (J'ohn)]

According to the Trinity doctrine, God died to appease himself and resurrected himself from the dead! So if you believe the trinity, you could probably maintain that God could kill itself and also come back from nowhere!
Umm, I don't think so. If God dies, then God dies (d'oh). Even if it's a trinitarian God we're talking about. As such, if the Christian God dies, all His aspects (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) cease to exist.
The Bible mentions that the Father resurrected the Son. But if the Son was dead, God was dead, so the Father was dead.

Ergo, Jesus cheated. ;)

SBS :)

[Ellis14]

Umm, I don't think so. If God dies, then God dies (d'oh). Even if it's a trinitarian God we're talking about. As such, if the Christian God dies, all His aspects (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) cease to exist.
The Bible mentions that the Father resurrected the Son. But if the Son was dead, God was dead, so the Father was dead.

Ergo, Jesus cheated. ;)

SBS :)
Yes you'll get no arguments from me. I was saying that if you do believe the Trinity, you can believe anything!

Of all the Christian doctrines, the Trinity is the worst.

[-X-]

it is difficult for christians to admit, but jesus was no more than an avatar if we are to believe as christians say they do...

[haverbob]

So you admit that it could all just be a lie to make people feel better about themselves so that they will do things on their own?

No, but I'm not going to get in to it. Our thinking varies too much. I remember from a psychology class I had in college, there are two types of minds. When you ask people to picture an apple, some will grab an image of an apple from their mind (memory) or create an image based on a conglomeration of apples they have seen. So they will see a picture of "an" apple (maybe not the "right" apple, but that wasn't what the exercise asked for). The other mind will not see a picture but instead will see a list of attributes that an apple is supposed to have (red, stem....). They will ask "what kind of apple should I picture, a red one, a green one, a small one or a large one? High on the accuracy side or "appropriateness", low on the visualization side.

[Ellis14]

No, but I'm not going to get in to it. Our thinking varies too much. I remember from a psychology class I had in college, there are two types of minds. When you ask people to picture an apple, some will grab an image of an apple from their mind (memory) or create an image based on a conglomeration of apples they have seen. So they will see a picture of "an" apple (maybe not the "right" apple, but that wasn't what the exercise asked for). The other mind will not see a picture but instead will see a list of attributes that an apple is supposed to have (red, stem....). They will ask "what kind of apple should I picture, a red one, a green one, a small one or a large one? High on the accuracy side or "appropriateness", low on the visualization side.
That sounds borderline "right brain, left brain" to me! It is true that different parts of the brain analyse data in different ways, but there are no two different types of minds that people can have.