Where is the sacrifice if....

[bookworm14]

the Father (=God) and Jesus (=the Son) are one (in the Trinity with the Holy Ghost)? If God is immortal and Jesus is to be resurrected from the dead after his crucifixion, I am having trouble seeing where the sacrifice is. Kill an immortal and he comes back to life? Did Jesus know he was immortal? If yes, then my question again: where is the sacrifice? If no, then why not if he was one with God? :confused:
bookworm14

[-X-]

imo, there was no sacrifice, only man's illusion of one.

[Yannis (J'ohn)]

That's interesting, I just brought up that subject in another thread (the Holy Suicide thread). Great minds think alike! :D
Or, if you prefer, little minds think alike. :o

Anyway, the trinitarian doctrine states that each aspect of God (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) is 100% God, not 33,3% God. Which means that, if one of the three aspects dies, then 100% of God dies, which means that God dies.

So, the whole trinitarian construct died if Jesus died. That makes it impossible for the Father to resurrect the Son, since if the Son is dead, so is the Father!

I can only see three possible solutions: Jesus didn't really die, Jesus wasn't God, or God doesn't exist. None of those is favourable to the Christian dogma, apparently.

SBS :)

[Armchair dissident]

There was a good quote on this very thing on alt.atheism some time last year:


A sacrifice is not a sacrifice by definition if you get back what you supposedly sacrificed. At best, Jesus can be considered to have been inconvenienced for your sins.


(From here (google groups) (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1280922307d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=nemo0037-9AA96F.17581127072003%40news03.west.earthlink.net) ) :)

[Rhaedas]

If Jesus had gone to hell for eternity to suffer in the place of those who believe in him, or for those who do good works, depending on your interpretation of what being "saved" is, then it would be a sacrifice, as much sacrifice as a deity could give anyway. As it is, it was a long weekend for him...

[graymouser]

If Jesus had gone to hell for eternity to suffer in the place of those who believe in him, or for those who do good works, depending on your interpretation of what being "saved" is, then it would be a sacrifice, as much sacrifice as a deity could give anyway. As it is, it was a long weekend for him...Friday night to Sunday morning, actually, covering a good 36 hours. So, for your sins Jesus:

-Got beaten up
-Died one of the quickest deaths upon crucifixion of any man in history (it usually took a couple of days)
-Spent a good 36 hours in Hell.

So, a question for all the Christians out there: if one guy spending 36 hours in Hell is good to cover millions, why would everybody else have to spend eternity down there? It. Just. Doesn't. Make. Sense.

-Wayne

[Yannis (J'ohn)]

Friday night to Sunday morning, actually, covering a good 36 hours.
See! He couldn't even stay dead for 72 hours like he promised to! I'm telling you, Jesus cheated, through and through.

SBS :)

[Jack the Bodiless]

What's interesting is that some Christians seem to be very aware of the problem, and apply the theological technique known as "making stuff up" to increase the suffering of Jesus beyond that depicted in the Bible.

...Such as all the extra whipping in Gibson's The Passion of the Christ. Or the somewhat bizarre doctrine that Jesus spent a very long period of subjective time in Hell during those thirty-odd hours (something to do with his "eternal nature").

[Boro Nut]

Don't touch my Easter Eggs lads, I'll be back in three days.

Boro Nut

[lpetrich]

Somehow, this question makes me imagine Jesus Christ jumping off of that cross.

Which would have been a sight to see.

[krazykatlady]

bookworm14: the Father (=God) and Jesus (=the Son) are one (in the Trinity with the Holy Ghost)? If God is immortal and Jesus is to be resurrected from the dead after his crucifixion, I am having trouble seeing where the sacrifice is. Kill an immortal and he comes back to life? Did Jesus know he was immortal? If yes, then my question again: where is the sacrifice? If no, then why not if he was one with God?

The way I understood it is that Jesus sacrificed his HUMAN life not his entire existence. I would assume he knew about his immortality once he became aware of who he was (early teens/tweens?).
I'd still consider that a sacrifice. Hell, he can take my place any day up on a cross (aside from the fact that I am not an immortal being). However, it's a lot less of a sacrifice than the Xian fundies make it out to be.

Ange =^..^=

[cpickett]

The way I understood it is that Jesus sacrificed his HUMAN life not his entire existence. I would assume he knew about his immortality once he became aware of who he was (early teens/tweens?).
I'd still consider that a sacrifice. Hell, he can take my place any day up on a cross (aside from the fact that I am not an immortal being). However, it's a lot less of a sacrifice than the Xian fundies make it out to be.

Ange =^..^=

But he didn't really even lose his Human life. If we are to accept the Christian definition of God, then Jesus, being omnipotent, could have his old body back anytime he pleased. Also revelations talks of the second coming, where Jesus is back to his old human self.

The problem lies in an omnimax diety losing something, it's logically impossible for that to happen, so it is impossible for God or God incarnate to preform any type of sacrafice.

On a lighter note, I never did understand why "God sacraficed himself, to himself, to save us from himself"...

[Yannis (J'ohn)]

The way I understood it is that Jesus sacrificed his HUMAN life not his entire existence.[/FONT]
That would make his sacrifice no more important than any other sacrifice people make for others. And, likewise, his resurrection would be no more important than any of the resurrections narrated in the Bible.

So I think it's safe to assume that they don't describe him as only sacrificing his mortal self there...

SBS :)

[Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ]

The way I understood it is that Jesus sacrificed his HUMAN life not his entire existence. I would assume he knew about his immortality once he became aware of who he was (early teens/tweens?).
It isn't a sacrifice if you don't want it anyways.

[krazykatlady]

But he didn't really even lose his Human life.
:confused: If his heart ceased to beat & his lungs ceased to process air & his brain ceased to process it's functions, then sure he lost his human life.
That would make his sacrifice no more important than any other sacrifice people make for others.
Yeah, that's why I said: it's a lot less of a sacrifice than the Xian fundies make it out to be.
BTW, I am an atheist; I'm just arguing the story as I've understood it. What I've always learned was that Jesus had a dual existence: (1) as a Heavenly spirit, 1/3 of the Trinity & (2) as a human. It was my understanding that for those 30 some years, he was human (though, contradictions exist, since he was the product of a God-woman union & he had miraculous, superhuman powers). So, when he died, as a human, he felt the pain & agony of his death. His human body died on that cross, & he was resurrected back again in his spirit-form.
It isn't a sacrifice if you don't want it anyways.
Sure, it is. The defintion of sacrifice does not require acceptance.
Ange =^..^=

[cpickett]

:confused: If his heart ceased to beat & his lungs ceased to process air & his brain ceased to process it's functions, then sure he lost his human life.

What I meant was that while being omnipotent, he allowed his life to be taken, but it is a life which he could easily get back. So in essence he didn't "lose" anything.

[Mageth]

The saying should go, "Jesus temporarily misplaced his life for our sins."

[JoeBaseball]

Jesus hits a long fly ball to center field. That could score a run. Paul tags at third. Here comes the throw. He is .... SAFE! PAUL IS SAFE! Christians Win! Christians Win! Holy Cow!

Oh sorry. it's baseball season. I can't think straight.

[Armchair dissident]

:confused: If his heart ceased to beat & his lungs ceased to process air & his brain ceased to process it's functions, then sure he lost his human life.

As I remember biblical teachings (it's been some time), it could be argued that he didn't do that. The resurrection was supposed to be a bodily resurrection - complete with holes in his hands et al (doubting Thomas). His heart, brain and lungs all just suddenly started working again; i.e. he became human again.

So he didn't really even sacrifice his human life; he knew in advance that he'd get it back eventually.

Although it does make me wonder: what would he have done if the Romans had decided to behead him? Would we have images of Jesus as the headless donkeyman? What if he'd been cremated?

[Angrillori]

Dude, saying Jebus sacrificed his HUMAN life, is like me saying I 'sacrificed' my toenails this morning.

God lost his human shell, that he could have back whenever he wanted, and did not in any way limit his abilities, for an infintesimal amount of time compared to his supposed 'eternal' total existence-span.

I lost my toenails, which will grow back, the losing of which doesn't limit my abilities, and they will only be this short for a tiny amount of time compared to my (hopefully) 80+ year lifespan.

Heck, clipping my toenails was a BIGGER sacrifice since I can't have 'em back right away if I decided I wanted 'em!

[krazykatlady]

As I remember biblical teachings (it's been some time), it could be argued that he didn't do that. The resurrection was supposed to be a bodily resurrection - complete with holes in his hands et al (doubting Thomas). His heart, brain and lungs all just suddenly started working again; i.e. he became human again.
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about that. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
Ange =^..^=

[Suzume]

According to Merriam-Webster Online (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=death) Death is defined as:

1 : a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life -- compare BRAIN DEATH

Since J man's cesation of life functions was not permement, that being the entire point, he was never dead... :D

[Iacchus]

To sacrifice the only life we knew (our self-centeredness), perchance for an even greater life beyond. Yes, this is the whole crux of the matter. Indeed, what is the point if there were no payoff?

So, doesn't it stand to reason that God would have us remain the selfish little swine we are, than have us come to Him unwillingly?

[rad]

the Father (=God) and Jesus (=the Son) are one (in the Trinity with the Holy Ghost)? If God is immortal and Jesus is to be resurrected from the dead after his crucifixion, I am having trouble seeing where the sacrifice is. Kill an immortal and he comes back to life? Did Jesus know he was immortal? If yes, then my question again: where is the sacrifice? If no, then why not if he was one with God? :confused:
bookworm14

How ironic. The other argument is that God should not have let his son suffer such a horrible death, and is "sadistic" for doing so. I have argued the necessity of shedding of blood for redemption, but that Jesus was happy to go through it for us, knowing the outcome. Now we hear that the outcome means there was no real sacrifice.

"John came to you neither eating nor drinking and you say 'He has a demon.' I came to you eating and drinking and you say 'Behold a gluttonous man and a wine bibber....' Wisdom has been justified by her works."

There's always a witch in their somewhere, if you look hard enough.

Rad