How to discuss liberal religious issues with children

[Soul Invictus]

My sister has provided our family with a wonderful son. We all love him to life. My brother is 18, my baby sister is 15, I am 26, and my older sister is 24. She and I am have been close before my younger two siblings up to today. I cannot be too sure of my family's familiarity with my religious qualms, however we've had several discussions about it. I don't know if they think I am damned or not. I think they love me too much to admit it to me or to themselves consciously. Onto my issue.

I recognize my sister's right (for lack of a better word) to raise my nephew with beliefs that she believes to be true. As an uncle, I recognize my role to play as positive of a role in his life as possible, and to a relative extent, instill moral values as well. I wonder how I am I to deal with the issue of religion in the future, should my religiosity become a question of his. I have proved to hold my own with respect to various tenets of the Christian faith, of which I've had exposure to. I do not intend to condescend those who practice the faith; I would not say my mission is to take away God from these people either. I will say that convincing arguments make their own case. Is it appropriate to voice my values, which may be diametrically opposed to, or not in alignment with that of my family's? Even if I don't assertively approach him in the future about issues, if he came to me and asked my opinions on certain issues, I would feel that it would be my duty not to marginalize my position for the sake of their uniformity. I do anticipate a potential "rift" issue if there was the "my uncle said XYZ" and as she/they were not prepared to counter my positions, as is the case with a fair assortment of Christians. Has anyone had to deal with this? Does my justice to my position supercede or come second to potentially usurping my sister's influence on her child?

Waiting for your contemplative replies...

[Viti]

Tough call that. I am very open and honest with MY niece, but keep my mouth shut around hubby's nieces and nephews. I would suggest avoiding the topic if at all possible, or simply explain "I don't believe that, but your parents do" and see if he asks any specific questions when he is old enough to understand fully and make his own decisions.

[Proxima Centauri]

I agree with LadyShea. You can teach a great deal about the scientific method in general. This will not threaten your nephew's religious beliefs in ways which are obvious to his parents. It will still prepare him to think rationally about religion or other topics when her gets older.

[HelenM]

I do anticipate a potential "rift" issue if there was the "my uncle said XYZ" and as she/they were not prepared to counter my positions, as is the case with a fair assortment of Christians.

I suggest you spend time with your sister’s son, doing fun things, so you build a great relationship with him; and while you do, I recommend that you respect your sister’s wishes on what she wants her son exposed or not exposed to when young. For example, if she doesn’t want him watching TV (or certain programs), don’t let him watch it (or them) when he’s at your house, without her permission.

If he asks you any question on a topic regarding which you know you and his parents have different answers, you can say “Why don’t you ask your parents?� and also tell them what he asked you. This will help them trust you with him and maximizes the likelihood that they’ll let him spend time with you.

On the other hand you could answer his questions without regard to whether his parents would mind what you say to him. However, if he’s young, they’ll probably find out that you did so (children can't keep anything a secret) and his parents may respond by limiting your access to him, which will make it harder to build the kind of relationship with him in which he will bring questions to you when he’s older. Not to mention that it could be very detrimental to your relationship with your sister.

Helen

[Face]

In general, the best way to be a good influence is to be a good person, involved in their life, AND make it clear that you are an atheist. Eventually the contradiction and difference will become apparent to the child and, like everyone, he'll make his own decision.

[AspenMama]

When I was married to a Catholic, I always told my son, this is what I think, but many others, including your father, think differently. This is why I think the way I do... I also made it clear to those around me that this was what I would be saying to my son. With my nephews who were shocked at my breastfeeding, and lived with a fundy mother in a small town, I would say the same things, but only if the subject were to come up naturally.

I would suggest that you talk with your sister ahead of time. Tell her that you will not wish to hide your beliefs but that you will always be respectful of her rights as a mother to teach her child as she sees fit. Respect is a two way street.

Edited to add-- I like what Face suggested above.

[AspenMama]

If he asks you any question on a topic regarding which you know you and his parents have different answers, you can say “Why don’t you ask your parents?� and also tell them what he asked you. This will help them trust you with him and maximizes the likelihood that they’ll let him spend time with you.

Well I think it largely depends on the question. For instance, questions like "What do you believe?" should be answered directly. However, there should be a conversation with the parents letting them know how this was handled.

[HelenM]

Well I think it largely depends on the question. For instance, questions like "What do you believe?" should be answered directly. However, there should be a conversation with the parents letting them know how this was handled.

That's why I think it's best to discuss such eventualities ahead of time. Because then the only surprise will be the timing of the question, not what SI said to their child.

Actually, I was thinking more of questions like "why did God...?" which the boy might ask SI if he is unaware so far that not everyone believes in God.

On the other hand, such things as SI not attending church may have already shown the boy that when it comes to religion, there are some differences between his parents and SI. In which case he might not ask SI "church-type" questions anyway. And in which case he's more likely to ask "why?" questions about SI, or of SI, because he's naturally going to wonder why SI doesn't go to church (or abstains in from some other religious activity).

Either way, I think it's in SI's best interests to talk to the parents before rather than after he says something to the child to do with his atheism.

Helen

[Face]

Either way, I think it's in SI's best interests to talk to the parents before rather than after he says something to the child to do with his atheism.

As a matter of respect, this is fair. But I have always held that an honest question should be answered honestly; While we do not have the right to tell children that their parents are wrong, liars, or worse, I cannot expect that we should have to lie or quietly hide our non-beliefs from anyone. If someone's plan for raising children includes the belief that the rest of the world should never divulge that they think or act differently than the parent wants, then it is the parent who should re-think their strategy for raising kids. That or do what most Christians do anyway, which is shelter their kids from the real world.

As an accompanying example; one of my best friends (a gay atheist) was asked by his co-workers to never give any indication that he wasn't a straight Christian if any of their kids were present, even when directly asked. A few arguments later, and they more or less sheepishly agreed not to ask him to lie about himself on their behalf, and he agreed not to bring up the subject unless asked.

[AspenMama]

Actually, I was thinking more of questions like "why did God...?" which the boy might ask SI if he is unaware so far that not everyone believes in God.
Or any god/s.
Either way, I think it's in SI's best interests to talk to the parents before rather than after he says something to the child to do with his atheism.
Curious, I can't imagine getting that courtesy from a Xian parent or relative. They would simply assume that it is okay to make god statements to my child. This is why I believe it is best to be open with my children and to equip them to handle such issues when they are out there without me. It is simply not possible to filter every little thing they see or hear. (Nor would I want to).

In regards to this particular situation however, I recommend always answering a child's question to the best of one's ability and with greatest honesty. It is very feasable to teach a child your views on atheism without teaching her to not respect others views. So, while it would be good to perhaps have a discussion with the child's parent ahead of time-- in this case the poster's sister, I think it is key that we do not stay silent about our atheism. How will we ever earn respect without being honest and open about this issue?

[HelenM]

Curious, I can't imagine getting that courtesy from a Xian parent or relative. They would simply assume that it is okay to make god statements to my child.

You can disabuse them of that notion (unless it is ok with you for them to make those statements). If you turn things around and ask them if it's ok for you to tell their children there is no God (are no gods), maybe they'll get the point.

This is why I believe it is best to be open with my children and to equip them to handle such issues when they are out there without me. It is simply not possible to filter every little thing they see or hear. (Nor would I want to).

I agree that equipping children is a much better long-term strategy than trying to keep them from hearing certain things. As you said, the latter will fail eventually anyway.

Helen

[AspenMama]

You can disabuse them of that notion (unless it is ok with you for them to make those statements). If you turn things around and ask them if it's ok for you to tell their children there is no God (are no gods), maybe they'll get the point.

Well my thinking here is that most folks my children would be around would not even consider anything out of the ordinary about making these statments and I would not necessarily be around 100% of the time to confront folks with these issues. Nor do I really think it necessary or practical to go to each and every neighbor's house where my son might be playing with their children, or confront every adult at school whom my children might come in contact, nor even talk to each family member they may be with by themselves. The idea that as atheists we must ask permission before speaking about religion or the lack of it to children, feels somewhat like a double standard. In general, most theists wouldn't even think to ask permission before revealing their beliefs. So, yes, I could turn things around as you suggested, but practically speaking, I would have little opportunity to do so. And if I were to use that, I certainly would not state out and out that "There is no god/s", rather I'd say, "I think there is a distinct lack of evidence for the existance of a god or gods, but many folks, including your parents believe differently." I have a hard time seeing a Xian turn that around and begin statements with "I believe" or, "I think", rather statements are made as absolute and true. Hence again, the double standard. I'm not saying that you are someone who practices this policy, but simply that it is very prevalent.

[HelenM]

Well my thinking here is that most folks my children would be around would not even consider anything out of the ordinary about making these statments and I would not necessarily be around 100% of the time to confront folks with these issues. Nor do I really think it necessary or practical to go to each and every neighbor's house where my son might be playing with their children, or confront every adult at school whom my children might come in contact, nor even talk to each family member they may be with by themselves.

I was still thinking along the lines of the OP, which is about one particular person, who has a relationship with the parents that he/she wants to maintain, who wants to be around their child/children and whose beliefs/nonbeliefs are not those of the parents. In that situation, I would think either the parents or the other person would have the opportunity to initiate a discussion about how to answer questions from the child. If they want to have that discussion.

In the wider context, no, I wouldn't expect you to have an opportunity to talk to everyone your child might come across. But I would expect you to be able to talk to those your child will regularly spend time with and those are the people most likely to influence your child anyway.

The idea that as atheists we must ask permission before speaking about religion or the lack of it to children, feels somewhat like a double standard. In general, most theists wouldn't even think to ask permission before revealing their beliefs. So, yes, I could turn things around as you suggested, but practically speaking, I would have little opportunity to do so. And if I were to use that, I certainly would not state out and out that "There is no god/s", rather I'd say, "I think there is a distinct lack of evidence for the existance of a god or gods, but many folks, including your parents believe differently." I have a hard time seeing a Xian turn that around and begin statements with "I believe" or, "I think", rather statements are made as absolute and true. Hence again, the double standard. I'm not saying that you are someone who practices this policy, but simply that it is very prevalent.

With all due respect, I'd rather not discuss what most theists do and whether it's a double standard in this thread, because I feel that to do so will move the thread further than appropriate from SI's OP. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I feel.

Helen

[Soul Invictus]

However, if he’s young, they’ll probably find out that you did so (children can't keep anything a secret) and his parents may respond by limiting your access to him, which will make it harder to build the kind of relationship with him in which he will bring questions to you when he’s older.
Helen

He's not even two yet - I'm thinking WAY in advance!

[Soul Invictus]

Well I think it largely depends on the question. For instance, questions like "What do you believe?" should be answered directly. However, there should be a conversation with the parents letting them know how this was handled.

My concern with respect to the theological issues are those which are credibility issues such as:

1) Purposeful/intentional mistranslations and
2) Ecumenical councils that established creeds (versus the oft thought "God declared it" mentality. Most Christians aren't familiar with the Council of Nicea and how real it was that Jesus could have been perceived to be solely human
3) Doctrinal differences (depravity - original sin)
4) Inaccuracies in the scripture
5) Lack of proof positive to verify the existence of said deity
6) Problematic issues (Trinity, differences in Hebrew OT culture vs Greek NT theme)
7) Implausibilities (Noah's flood)
8) Historical issues (themes were borrowed from more ancient cultures)

I'm sure there are more. I've developed an skill in discussing these issues, and since most Christians aren't able to marginalize or combat these issues, I'm sure that a young impressionable and unsophisticated child would be persuaded by my arguments. I wish to convey my sentiments if asked - the problem would be

1) When my arguments prove more persuasive
2) My nephew attempts to reconcile our "differences" by going back and forth

How does one deal with that? Be non-responsive?

[BadBadBad]

How does one deal with that? Be non-responsive?

I don't believe you are the one that should have to deal with that. The parents are trying to limit the children's exposure to reality. That's their problem. Let them be the one to explain to their children that they shouldn't ask questions, especially from anyone who is going to give you a different answer than the one we think you should get.

[AspenMama]

I'm sure there are more. I've developed an skill in discussing these issues, and since most Christians aren't able to marginalize or combat these issues, I'm sure that a young impressionable and unsophisticated child would be persuaded by my arguments. I wish to convey my sentiments if asked - the problem would be

1) When my arguments prove more persuasive
2) My nephew attempts to reconcile our "differences" by going back and forth

How does one deal with that? Be non-responsive?
I truly detest it when folks are non-responsive to children. I'm thinking back to when I was married and the times I spent with my fundy ex-sister-in-law and her kids. She had no qualms about saying "goddidit" to every other thing and to have her children fold their hands and pray before snarfing a fast food hamburger. I often said to her, in front of her kids, "I believe differently" and when one of her kids asked why my child did not fold his hands, she ignored him. It wasn't appropriate at the time to say anything on my part. A lot of rambling here I know. But the thing is, I never really had the opportunity to have long talks with my nephews and nieces as I do with my own children. They spend the majority of time with their parents, and any side conversations I had with them were very limited in scope and again, often under the eye of their parents.

Children can be far more sophisticated than you think. It depends on the kid and how the kid has been raised. Personally, I don't believe in talking "baby talk", or in keeping silent when my children or any child asks me a direct question. I speak as I would to anyone else, stopping here and there to explain a new word, if need be. This system has worked well so far for my children. It can be complicated when you are around other children who are related to you-- but I have to say-- treat them like you would your own child. Your nephew will spend most of his time with his parents-- so his parents will have the advantage over anything you may have to say to him. Sorry about all the rambling-- I don't know if any of this will help.

[HelenM]

I've developed an skill in discussing these issues, and since most Christians aren't able to marginalize or combat these issues, I'm sure that a young impressionable and unsophisticated child would be persuaded by my arguments. I wish to convey my sentiments if asked - the problem would be

1) When my arguments prove more persuasive
2) My nephew attempts to reconcile our "differences" by going back and forth

How does one deal with that? Be non-responsive?

To be clear, I do not advocate being 'non-responsive' to a child. There's a big difference between non-responsive and responsive, but with content chosen not to create conflict with a young child's parents, at an age when a child isn't equipped to evaluate competing answers anyway.

I'm a little confused by your saying "I'm sure that a young impressionable and unsophisticated child would be persuaded by my arguments." By definition, a young impressionable and unsophisticated child is not evaluating arguments based on their strength yet. So, if you persuade a child at that stage, it will not be because you have the best argument. You will simply have achieved better success at indoctrination than the theists in his life, for whatever reason.

If you're convinced you have the best arguments, the best thing to do, I would think, is to teach your nephew how to ask questions and evaluate arguments, in perhaps an informal way, using situations/topics which are not areas of sensitive disagreement between you and his parents. Then he will ask questions and he will be able to evaluate the answers. But before he attains that ability and is still "young, impressionable and unsophisticated" why provoke conflict with his parents by doing what is in effect simply alternative indoctrination? Although, if you don't care what conflict you might provoke with the parents, it doesn't matter.

I often said to her, in front of her kids, "I believe differently" and when one of her kids asked why my child did not fold his hands, she ignored him.

It really annoys me when adults ignore the children of questions. But as I wrote above, I believe it's possible to be responsive yet choose what we respond with so that it will not cause conflict we wish to avoid with others in the child's life. If it's merely a timing problem we can say "Ask me again later". There's always a better response - in my opinion - than ignoring a child's question completely.

Helen

[Soul Invictus]

[QUOTE=HelenM]
I'm a little confused by your saying "I'm sure that a young impressionable and unsophisticated child would be persuaded by my arguments." By definition, a young impressionable and unsophisticated child is not evaluating arguments based on their strength yet.

:o I guess this attests to the fact that I am not a parent yet! I don't know if it's true or not, however I assumed that a child would listen to what made more sense. They would be sophisticated to double back and verify claims. An example - if asked about the truth of the Noachian flood, one could easily state how there was similar stories that predate that one, and that history records dispute the time in which they are to occur. I would think the child would be inclined to wonder how this could be - I may be still in my idealistic stage on how well children reason ;)

If you're convinced you have the best arguments, the best thing to do, I would think, is to teach your nephew how to ask questions and evaluate arguments, in perhaps an informal way, using situations/topics which are not areas of sensitive disagreement between you and his parents. Then he will ask questions and he will be able to evaluate the answers.

This is good...I'm going to have to really work on how to do this...take everyday examples as a model for critical thinking...

But before he attains that ability and is still "young, impressionable and unsophisticated" why provoke conflict with his parents by doing what is in effect simply alternative indoctrination? Although, if you don't care what conflict you might provoke with the parents, it doesn't matter.

I can see how it could be alternative indoctrination, however the reasons why I do care about the potential for conflict are as such. On religious issues, I have a competing difference of opinion. I would willingly impart my opinions if asked, however I don't think I have to be impelled to articulate them, or proselytze as a religious person is, because the truth attests to itself - one needs not resort to apologetics to gain acceptance. Also, I don't operate based on a heaven/hell reward; the Christian "must" be as many to Christ because of the stakes involved. I don't bare this burden, so any communication of my thoughts can be purely for non-conversionary purposes only, regardless of if they accomplish an association of likewise thinking or not. I don't feel it's indoctrination because any with any value, one should convey their sentiments as best as possible. [i]Indoctrination[/] compels and demands acceptance of a particular code of conduct. Mine does not. If I am going to entertain his questions at all, I would almost think that I should be honest. I am a very clear communicator, and I am sure that much of my analysis would cause some sort of conflict. Since I'm not of the same mindset, conflict would be a natural expectation. This is the catch-22 I'm in.

[HelenM]

[QUOTE=HelenM]
I'm a little confused by your saying "I'm sure that a young impressionable and unsophisticated child would be persuaded by my arguments." By definition, a young impressionable and unsophisticated child is not evaluating arguments based on their strength yet.

:o I guess this attests to the fact that I am not a parent yet! I don't know if it's true or not, however I assumed that a child would listen to what made more sense. They would be sophisticated to double back and verify claims. An example - if asked about the truth of the Noachian flood, one could easily state how there was similar stories that predate that one, and that history records dispute the time in which they are to occur. I would think the child would be inclined to wonder how this could be - I may be still in my idealistic stage on how well children reason ;)

Children's reasoning abilities develop (hopefully) as they grow. What I'm saying is that I would think of "young, impressionable and unsophisticated" as a description of a child who has not yet developed strong reasoning powers. And so, if you're talking about a child who reasons and compares competing claims, you're talking about a child who is already moving away from "young, impressionable and unsophisticated".

If you're convinced you have the best arguments, the best thing to do, I would think, is to teach your nephew how to ask questions and evaluate arguments, in perhaps an informal way, using situations/topics which are not areas of sensitive disagreement between you and his parents. Then he will ask questions and he will be able to evaluate the answers.

This is good...I'm going to have to really work on how to do this...take everyday examples as a model for critical thinking...[/b]

It's not actually that hard once a child is able to talk well. If you go out anywhere with him he'll probably ask you lots of questions about your immediate environment and if he doesn't, you can ask him questions.

But before he attains that ability and is still "young, impressionable and unsophisticated" why provoke conflict with his parents by doing what is in effect simply alternative indoctrination? Although, if you don't care what conflict you might provoke with the parents, it doesn't matter.

I can see how it could be alternative indoctrination, however the reasons why I do care about the potential for conflict are as such. On religious issues, I have a competing difference of opinion. I would willingly impart my opinions if asked, however I don't think I have to be impelled to articulate them, or proselytze as a religious person is, because the truth attests to itself - one needs not resort to apologetics to gain acceptance. Also, I don't operate based on a heaven/hell reward; the Christian "must" be as many to Christ because of the stakes involved. I don't bare this burden, so any communication of my thoughts can be purely for non-conversionary purposes only, regardless of if they accomplish an association of likewise thinking or not. I don't feel it's indoctrination because any with any value, one should convey their sentiments as best as possible. [i]Indoctrination[/] compels and demands acceptance of a particular code of conduct. Mine does not. If I am going to entertain his questions at all, I would almost think that I should be honest. I am a very clear communicator, and I am sure that much of my analysis would cause some sort of conflict. Since I'm not of the same mindset, conflict would be a natural expectation. This is the catch-22 I'm in.

What I meant was that before a child can reason, you may as well be indoctrinating him because he won't be able to follow why you believe what you believe yet. I realize that you wouldn't have the need to persuade him that a Christian has who wants to (as they believe) save him from eternal condemnation. I was more thinking of the way the information will be received by him. By the time he's able to appreciate the force of your arguments and then go back to see whether his parents have a stronger basis for what they believe or not, I think he won't be "young, impressionable and unsophisticated" any more.

I daresay if/when you have children you'll be very open with them from a young age. But as I've said, I like it when people respect the way parents want to raise their own children and don't do things with other peoples' children while the children are young that will undermine - or even will seem like systematic attempts to undermine - what their parents are trying to achieve.

Anyway, I think you're aware of the issues and it's up to you how you balance the desire to honestly communicate your nonbelief to your nephew if he shows interest, and the potential conflict with your sister which is likely to arise if you appear to have had any active role in drawing him away from their beliefs.

Helen

[Pendaric]

With the OP specifically in mind, it boils down to the strengths of the rights of the individuals involved.

The parents have a right to bring their own child up as they see fit.

Your nephew has a right, when old enough, to have sufficient information to make up his own mind.

You have a right to be honest about your own position if asked.

The question is the way these rights mix together, and specifically how you handle it.

I would say that you should answer questions honestly, but you should not initiate the discussion and you should not expand beyond the question asked. You should also make it clear that this is your opinion and is not the same as the parents opinion.

And I would agree with everybody else. If you can see that this is something that could be a bone of contention you should agree guidelines with your sister well in advance. Difficult as it may be, what your sister says should go. She is the parent, and that takes precedence. Of the rights listed above, yours is the least.

When your nephew comes to adulthood he will ask his own questions. That's when you have the chance to have the discussions you want.